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Who said Jesus PHYSICALLY preexisted in heaven?

May 31 2016 at 11:47 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to If Jesus PHYSICALLY pre-existed in heaven, WHAT was he?

 
INCQUISITOR:

What is important to believe is that Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God.

To teach that Jesus pre-existed in heaven as God is FALSE because it makes Jesus a LIAR who said that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostle Paul also says Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5; Acts 17:31; Rom. 10:9). The prophet David also says Jesus is a MAN (Psalm 80:17 c.f. Col. 3:1). Jesus says the Father is the ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3). Apostle Paul says there is ONLY ONE God, the Father (Eph. 4:6). The prophet Malachi says ONE God created us all (Mal. 2?:10).

Therefore, to TWIST John 6;38 to mean that Jesus pre-existed as God in heaven is a desperate and futile attempt to make Jesus God.

ME:

Of course it is immaterial to you. And that only shows that you are just forcing it to be a figure of speech even when it is not. Obviously, that is your way of explaining the truth about Christ's preexistence in heaven away.

Scriptures has it (not me), that the Lord Jesus Christ said "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Did the Lord Jesus Christ came down from heaven? Jesus Christ himself said He did. Believing that is faith. Denying that is accusing Jesus Christ to be a liar.

Now, if you are out saying that what Jesus said there is a figure of speech, here is your right and opportunity to defend and prove what it is you say to be true. This is coming from you, not from anyone else, that Jesus is speaking a figure of speech. You said that. So, I ask this simple question, what type of figure of speech is it? If you can't even answer such simple question, then your excuse right here, right now crumbles to pieces and is proven false.

INCQUISITOR:

I believe that John 6:38 is a figure of speech because there is no way that Jesus pre-existed in heaven as God. Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostle Paul also says that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5).

To teach that Jesus LITERALLY came down from heaven to support the FALSE doctrine that Jesus pre-existed in heaven AS GOD, accuses Jesus and apostle Paul as LIARS.

On the other hand, to teach that Jesus LITERALLY came down from heaven to support the FALSE doctrine that Jesus pre-existed in heaven AS A SPIRITUAL BEING also accuses Jesus and Apostle Paul as LIARS.

You say, "So, I ask this simple question, what type of figure of speech is it? If you can't even answer such simple question, then your excuse right here, right now crumbles to pieces and is proven false."

If because of my inability to answer your "simple question" you take the above position that that Jesus LITERALLY came down from heaven" then you ACCUSE Jesus and apostle Paul as LIARS.

ME:

I know that you believe that John 6:38 is a figure of speech. And I respect that. So, saying the reasons you have why you believe so, really is unnecessary INCquisitor, at this point.

My point is simple. You say it is a figure of speech. But for you to say it is a figure of speech, it means that, you have basis and knowledge as to what figure of speech it is. Now, if you say you don't know, then your belief right here, right now is unsupported, baseless, if not altogether proven false, and is really just a forced and cheap excuse.

Now, this is a very dangerous matter. If one just conveniently go believing that this verse or that verse is a figure of speech, without knowing how it is a figure of speech, as by not even able to say what type of figure of speech it is, one can make any verse to mean what it wants it to mean.

I am asking what type it is, because of two things. One, to see if it is really a figure of speech. Two, knowing what type of figure of speech you say it is, would enable me to properly examine what you say, whether it is correct or not. For you see, a figure of speech as that of the type simile for instance, is different from the type personification. Knowing the type of figure of speech a statement is, guides us in properly understanding the meaning of the statement, the figure of speech, that is.
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And here's another verse, wherein Jesus said "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? (John 6:62)".

INCQUISITOR:

John 6:62 is also a figure of speech to describe his having "proceeded forth and came from God" (John 7:42).

However, unlike John 6:38 where Jesus did not LITERALLY come from heaven, Jesus did not only ascend to God (John 20:17) but also LITERALLY went to God AS A MAN (Acts 1:11; Psalm 80:17; Col. 3:"1).

ME:

I don't see any figure of speech in there INCquisitor, in same way I don't in John 6:38. And so, I ask you the same question here.

What type of figure of speech is John 6:62? And I am asking for the same reasons I have stated in the segment above.

 
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