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Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou.

July 19 2016 at 1:43 PM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou.

 
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom.10:17). Not by anything else.

Now, faith COMES, it says. Here are some questions:

1. Where do you think it comes from?
2. Does it come from you, from someone else, or from God?
3. If you say faith comes from you, can you expound on that?
4. If you say faith comes from someone else, can you expound on that?
5. If you say faith comes from God, can you expound on that?

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of the word "come" is different from mine. By taking the verse as a whole, I understand the word "come" to mean that faith results from HEARING the word of God.

Apostle Paul makes this clear when he said, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent" (Rom. 10:13-15)?

So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT.

God SENT Jesus into the world that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16; c.f. John 8:42; 17:3).

Jesus told his disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples into all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19). "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

"Faith cometh by hearing". It means that, for one to have faith, he must hear. And what is there to hear, except the words coming from someone. And if we are talking of faith in God, so we are referring to hearing the words of God. And so, then we must have to hear the words of God, not the words of anybody else. By such, faith in God can come to the hearer. And if the hearer believes God's words, then his hearing the words of God have resulted then to the hearer having faith, faith in God.

You said "So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT."

The Father have sent the Son to the world, and in time, the Son sent the HS to His apostles to dwell in them and be their paracletos, to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that Jesus said to them, and will testify of Him. The apostles were sent by Jesus to be His witnesses and preach these to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

INCQUISITOR:

It is not enough to simply read the scriptures by yourself in order to understand what the scripture says. A man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury (Acts 8:27), was reading Isaiah the prophet (Acts 8:28), when Philip ran to him and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" (Acts 8:30). And the eunuch said, "How can I, unless someone guides me? And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him" (Acts 8:31).

A majority of all self-professing Christians all claim to have read John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God. How come these people believe that Jesus is ALSO God?

These self-professing Christians have all read Romans 10:9 where apostle Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God RAISED Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." How come these self-professing Christians INSIST that Jesus raised HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD?

Therefore, WHAT YOU SAY IS false.

ME:

You mentioned of the Eunuch, who said "How can I, unless someone guides me?". And it was Philip, who guided him. Now, you must not forget that the Spirit was with Philip. And it is the HS whom Jesus sent to His apostles to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that He said to them, and these things were written in scriptures. It is them who were commissioned by Jesus to preach. And so we see Philip preaching to the Eunuch (it is wise to note what Philip preached to the Eunuch). But then, the apostles are all now dead and there were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of, as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. So, where can we hear the preaching of the apostles? That's right, in scriptures. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard them preached in their days, including that of Philip. Reading or hearing somebody reading scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach. So that, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, through scriptures, God's words.

INCQUISITOR:

You didn't address my questions.

I wrote: " A majority of all self-professing Christians all claim to have read John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God. How come these people believe that Jesus is ALSO God?

These self-professing Christians have all read Romans 10:9 where apostle Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God RAISED Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." How come these self-professing Christians INSIST that Jesus raised HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD?

Therefore, it is FALSE to assume that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach." What one hears are NOT the TRUE words of God but words of God that are ALTERED to suit a preacher's own man-made doctrines.

ME:

Oh, sorry about that.

I really can't tell INCquisitor in their case. Perhaps, you can ask them why.

On my part, I read John 8:40 and John 17:3, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find these verses neither saying that Jesus is not God, nor saying that Jesus is God, nor saying that Jesus is ALSO God.

I also read Romans 10:9, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find this verse saying that Jesus did not raised himself from the dead. But I have read John 2:19-22 where John says:

"19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."

And have read also John 10:18 where John says:

10 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Now, these scriptures, and the words of Jesus himself, that is, "in three days I will raise it up", and "I have power to take it again", clearly tells me that Jesus have the power to resurrect himself and have indeed risen from the dead. For when He had risen from the dead, scriptures says "His disciples remembered that He had said this to them.", that is, "I will raise it up.”

Why people like you don't see that or perhaps don't accept that, makes me sad for them.

You said "Therefore, it is FALSE to assume that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach." What one hears are NOT the TRUE words of God but words of God that are ALTERED to suit a preacher's own man-made doctrines."

How you consider this statement "READING or hearing somebody READING the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach" is FALSE, just tells me that you don't believe that what one can read in scriptures, the NT in particular" is not what the apostles preached. And you even say that what one hears (implied to be hearing the READING of scriptures by somebody) are not true words of God. Makes me feel sorry for you.
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Scriptures clearly say, faith comes by hearing the word of God. By hearing the the word OF God, it says. As such faith comes from God. And if it comes from God, we need to hear God. And we can hear God through His words. And His words are written, in scriptures. If you can't read, faith can come to you by having somebody read it for you, or by listening to one who reads scriptures. If you can read, read scriptures and faith can come to you.

If somebody tells you that, you are not to read scriptures, then he is a deceiver and is against God.
If somebody tells you that, you can read scriptures, but must not interpret it, then he is a deceiver and is against God.

INCQUISITOR:

What you are saying is DIFFERENT from what apostle Paul says in Romans 10:13-15. Apostle Paul specifies from WHOM we should HEAR the word of God. And apostle Paul provides hints on how to know when a preacher is SENT or not.

In 1 Cor. 2:13 apostle Paul wrote, "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual." A preacher SENT from God COMPARES spiritual things with spiritual.

In 2 Cor. 11:3-4 apostle Paul wrote: "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches ANOTHER Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME Jesus, the SAME spirit and the SAME gospel that the apostles preached.

In Galatians 1:6-8, apostle Paul wrote: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME gospel that Christ and the apostles preached.

ME:

It's not DIFFERENT INCquisitor, but is exactly what apostle Paul says. As I have explained, the apostles were the ones sent by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His witnesses and preach to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures speak of as being sent to preach, but the apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

Let me pick up my point from the scriptures "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

This is a clear reminder and warning of Paul to the Christians in Galatia. That the gospel that they have preached to them in the beginning is the gospel, the true gospel I may say. He greatly emphasizes this to the point of saying that if anyone, even they (he and the other apostles) or even an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel other than what they have preached to them then, Paul said "let him be accursed". Now, what is significant about this? As I have pointed out, we should always go back to scriptures when somebody preaches to you and claims that what they are preaching is the gospel of Christ. For, in the scriptures, we can find the gospel that the apostles preached that they were commissioned and sent to preach. In short, we don't get to readily and easily believe what others preach, but rather, go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach if it is in keeping with the gospel that the apostles preached, and believe what is there in scriptures, and not be deceived because of our lack of diligence.

INCQUISITOR:

Let me show you the FOLLY of what you are saying.

You have read 1 Cor. 8:6 where it reads, "yet for us there is ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

How come a lot of so-called Christians believe that Jesus Christ is ALSO God and for them there are TWO Lords - NOT one?

ME:

There is no folly to show in what I'm saying INCquisitor.

Regarding your question on 1 Cor.8:6, obviously you have a problem with that. God is my Lord. And Jesus Christ is my Lord. Why do you have a problem with that? The way I see it, it's because God is not your Lord. Anyway, this is not the issue in this thread.

INCQUISITOR:

Obviously, you don't listen to what God says in scriptures. And this is the folly of your OPINION that it is enough to read scriptures to have "faith by hearing the apostles through scriptures."

ME:

Well, if there are no other scriptures other than 1 Cor. 8:6, you may be right. But, that is not the case. And this is what is obvious, your scriptures is different from the Holy scriptures I read.

Perhaps, you can now go back to the issue under this thread.
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Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 INCQUISITOR:

Most MISINTERPRET this verse to mean that "faith is the gift from God." Apostle Paul writes, "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is the "thing HOPED for" and the kingdom of God is the "thing unseen" for which "faith is the substance and evidence (Heb. 11:1) respectively.

ME:

Regarding the "thing hoped for" and the "thing unseen", read my discussion about this at the top segment of this post.

With regards to Ephesians 2:8-9, let's see here the correct interpretation by going through the verse:

"For by grace you have been saved". This phrase tells of the Christian that he have been saved. And how? By grace, Paul says.

What does Paul mean in saying that the Christian have been saved "by grace"? We get to understand that in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

INCQUISITOR:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

These verses do not tell us that "faith comes from God."

What "grace" means is that because of God's love for the world, He SENT His son into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:16-17).

Of course, salvation is not by ourselves nor of works. It is a result of faith.


Apostle Paul writes, "For whoever CALLS on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him whom they have NOT believed? And how shall they believe in him whom they have NOT heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace. Who bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report? So then FAITH comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:16-17).

Thus, faith is the result of HEARING the gospel from a PREACHER SENT from God, BEIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel SAYS and INSTRUCTS one to do.

ME:

Yes Ephesians 2:8-9 does speak about the truth that faith comes from God. And I have explained to you clearly what the passage tells us in my post above.

You said "What "grace" means is that because of God's love for the world, He SENT His son into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:16-17)."

That is not what grace means INCquisitor. That is the grace of God. Here's a verse that can help you understand what grace means:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In the Greek, the word translated "grace" is "charis" which means favor, kindness. Grace is as a gift or blessing.

And perhaps now you can better understand the scriptures "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, men did not have to work or do anything for God to SEND His son into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17). God SENT His son out of His love for us. But it is through "faith in Jesus" that we are saved. This is what Paul meant when he said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Apostle Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:23).

ME:

The verse says "For by grace"... Now this means, not by works. If not by works, what then? As I have pointed out,we get to understand "For by grace", in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

You said "But it is through "faith in Jesus" that we are saved". It's good that you say that. Do you mean by that, that you agree, that it is not of yourself and not through works that we are saved, as Eph.2:8-9 says?
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Now, Paul said "it is the gift of God". What is the "it" referring to? From the verse, it can easily be understood that the "it" refers to the Christian's salvation ("have been saved"). It does not refer to faith, for it is not what is in view in the verse, rather, the salvation of the Christian is what is in view. So, what Paul is saying in the verse, is that, salvation is God's gift to the Christian. Now, we know that salvation means eternal life. We can see this in the statement of Paul, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.".

Thank you for commenting on Ephesians 2:8-9. It opened the door for me to show you that salvation is a gift. Do you know what that means?

INCQUISITOR:

Of course I have known all along that salvation or eternal life - NOT faith - is the gift of God. I also know that we can only receive this gift of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus or by HEARING the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God, BELIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel says or INSTRUCTS us to do.

In case you have not heard it before, "the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks. FOR IN IT, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Therefore, it is important to test whether the gospel that one is hearing, believing and obeying is the true gospel of Christ. The only way of knowing whether the gospel one is hearing is the true gospel of Christ is if it REVEALS the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

ME:

There is a lot of difference between having faith in Jesus Christ and that of the matter of hearing the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God. And the former is where one get to receive eternal life. So, your statement "I also know that we can only receive this gift of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus OR by HEARING the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God, BELIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel says or INSTRUCTS us to do", is faulty.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, a preacher SENT from God preaches the gospel of Christ. Hence, hearing from a preacher SENT from God is tantamount to hearing the gospel of Christ. As Christ told his disciples long ago, "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who Sent ME" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

Luke 10:16 refers to no other but to those whom Jesus have sent in those times. It does not include any of those now who claims to be sent by Jesus or by God.

Now, there are plenty in these days who claims to be sent from God, and that they claim to be the only ones sent and no other. And one say to the other, that he is a false messenger, and so too will the other say to the other. As each one denies the other, one need not have to really choose between them who is true or not. For we can go to those in scriptures spoken to be sent by Jesus to preach the gospel, that is, His apostles. What they have preached, God have inspired to be written in scriptures. So, if one reads in scriptures what they preached, they could be sure that they are hearing the true gospel.
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With regards to your other post here, thanks, but I have read and heard that passage long time ago. And it reminds me, I asked you some time ago on the passage you cited, what does "faith to faith" means? If my memory serves me right, you said you don't know. I wonder then how you could understand the passage and cite it, when you don't know what it means.

INCQUISITOR:

I wrote:

"In case you have not heard it before, "the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks. FOR IN IT, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Therefore, it is important to test whether the gospel that one is hearing, believing and obeying is the true gospel of Christ. The only way of knowing whether the gospel one is hearing is the true gospel of Christ is if it REVEALS the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God."

You ask, "what does "faith to faith" mean?

Apostle Paul says, "for in it (the gospel of Christ}, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is REVEALED from faith to faith."

I believe that this is a way to test the authenticity of whoever claims to be a preacher sent from God. The gospel of Christ that one preaches must REVEAL the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God. Otherwise, the gospel that one preaches is FALSE.

ME:

Sorry, but I still don't really get what "faith to faith" means for you. Are you saying that "faith" there refers to other faith, as in, other belief?

 
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Responses

  1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 2, 2017, 6:47 PM
    1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 4:51 AM
      1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 15, 2017, 10:49 AM
        1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 16, 2017, 8:13 AM
          1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 16, 2017, 3:46 PM
            1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 17, 2017, 2:02 PM
              1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 17, 2017, 7:10 PM
                1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 4:27 AM
                  1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 22, 2017, 4:08 PM
                    1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 23, 2017, 3:28 AM
                      1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 23, 2017, 2:39 PM
                      2. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 24, 2017, 4:36 AM
                      3. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 30, 2017, 10:35 AM
                      4. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 3, 2017, 5:50 AM
                      5. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on May 7, 2017, 10:40 AM
                      6. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 20, 2017, 3:50 AM
     
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