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Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 17 2016 at 12:13 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: The Gospel Of Christ

 
ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?
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You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who you you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?
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You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

ME:

In Mt.5:1-16, Jesus is teaching about many things. Is Jesus teaching them the law and the prophets? This is why I said, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from, saying "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He there teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law. So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". We can understand that, at this point of Jesus teaching, Jesus knew what they were thinking about him from what He has just taught them in v.3-16. They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law.

Notice, after v.17-20, after addressing their wrong thinking about Him, he went on teaching them, from v. 21-48. This time, with specific reference to what is in the law. He refers to things in the law, and says something seemingly different. Let's take for instance v.21-22, Jesus taught,"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ BUT I SAY to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....". See also v.27-28, v. 31-32, v.33-37, v.38-42, v.43-44.

So, with the foregoing explanation, what you say, with regards to Mt.5:17, that Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, I'm sorry to say, is refuted, and so is wrong.
---------------------------

ME:

You said "Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Jesus tells them in v.20, teaching them "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus did not tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus neither did tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses. But what can be understood is that Jesus tells them this to mean that, they are mistaken, if they think that the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees will lead and have them enter the Kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is telling them, is that, UNLESS their righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, they will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, Jesus speaks of "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" in verse Mt.5:20. What do you say Jesus is referring to by "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"?

 
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Responses

  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 18, 2016, 7:02 PM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 12:05 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 7:41 AM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 10:07 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 1:23 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 21, 2016, 4:20 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 6:07 PM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 8:14 AM
                  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 24, 2016, 10:38 AM
                    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 25, 2016, 7:03 AM
                      1. Anyone who desires to attain eternal life must heed the gospel of Christ. - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:12 PM
                      2. INCquisitor evades the arguments...can't refute. - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 1:18 AM
      2. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 7:54 AM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 10:11 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 1:27 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 21, 2016, 4:25 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 6:14 PM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 8:34 AM
                  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 24, 2016, 4:30 PM
                    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 25, 2016, 7:07 AM
                      1. Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:22 PM
                      2. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 6:38 AM
                      3. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on Apr 18, 2017, 4:12 PM
                      4. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 9:55 PM
                      5. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on May 18, 2017, 6:43 PM
                      6. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on May 19, 2017, 9:10 AM
                      7. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on May 21, 2017, 5:08 PM
                      8. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on May 22, 2017, 9:14 AM
                      9. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on May 22, 2017, 3:26 PM
                      10. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on May 22, 2017, 8:19 PM
      3. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 8:46 AM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 10:47 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 3:54 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 21, 2016, 5:22 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 7:04 PM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 9:25 AM
                  1. Jesus did not come to destroy the prophets, that's true. - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:37 PM
                    1. Prophets is plural, so it is not just Ezekiel. - Tomas on Feb 25, 2017, 8:54 PM
                      1. Obviously, you do NOT know what Jesus was sent by God for. - INCquisitor on Mar 4, 2017, 3:36 PM
                      2. Sure, the main thing Jesus was sent by God for was to die for our sins, - Tomas on Mar 4, 2017, 7:24 PM
                      3. God did not send Jesus to "die for our sins." - INCquisitor on Mar 5, 2017, 12:18 PM
                      4. Romans 10:4 says "For Christ is the end of the law , so that there may be - Tomas on Mar 5, 2017, 4:00 PM
                      5. Paul was referring to rightousness of faith" (Rom. 10:6). - INCquiditor on Mar 6, 2017, 6:04 PM
                      6. Yes, faith is necessary for salvation. And Rom. 10:9 does specify two salvation - Tomas on Mar 7, 2017, 11:23 PM
                      7. You say, "That means we NEED to OBEY him." - INCquisitor on Mar 12, 2017, 5:24 AM
                      8. I obey Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15. That instruction permits us not to always wash - Tomas on Mar 12, 2017, 6:51 PM
                      9. If you MISINTERPRET Matt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15... - INCquisitor on Mar 14, 2017, 6:35 PM
                      10. I do not misinterpret Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15, you do. - Tomas on Mar 15, 2017, 6:44 AM
                      11. Matt. 15:11 and MNarrk 7:15 is NOT about eating with unwashed hands. - INCquiitor on Mar 16, 2017, 6:34 PM
                      12. It sure is. Look at the context. - Tomas on Mar 16, 2017, 10:28 PM
                      13. You are thinking beyond what is written Tomas. - INCquisitor on Apr 6, 2017, 5:58 PM
                      14. No, I am going by all that is written there. - Tomas on Apr 6, 2017, 10:17 PM
                      15. Jesus did not say, "with washed hands" either. - INCquisitor on Apr 8, 2017, 4:17 PM
                      16. Jesus was responding to criticism in Mt. 15:2 about them eating with unwashed hands. - Tomas on Apr 8, 2017, 8:24 PM
                      17. Re: Jesus was responding to criticism in Mt. 15:2 about them eating with unwashed hands. - INCquisitor on May 18, 2017, 6:49 PM
                      18. The issue Jesus reacted to was the tradition of washing hands. - Tomas on May 28, 2017, 1:25 AM
                      19. You are saying that Jeus LIED, aren't you? - INCquisitor on May 28, 2017, 4:27 PM
                      20. Jesus did not lie, of course. You just misunderstood what he said there. - Tomas on Jun 10, 2017, 9:29 PM
      4. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 9:21 AM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 11:00 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 5:50 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 10:02 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 5:13 PM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 1:49 AM
                  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Apr 16, 2017, 4:08 PM
                    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Apr 17, 2017, 11:43 AM
                      1. The gospel you preach does NOT reveal the "righteousness of God." - INCquisitor on Apr 18, 2017, 4:16 PM
                      2. Re: The gospel you preach does NOT reveal the "righteousness of God." - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 11:22 PM
     
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