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Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016 at 12:05 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: The Gospel Of Christ

 
ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?
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You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who do you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.

ME:

Are you saying then that John 3:17 is saying that God did not send His Son into the "sinners" to condemn the "sinners", but that the "sinners" through Him might be saved? Or that God did not send His Son into the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" to condemn the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built", but that the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" through Him might be saved? Does not only sound ugly, but really becomes a weird and senseless statement.
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You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

ME:

In Mt.5:1-16, Jesus is teaching about many things. Is Jesus teaching them the law and the prophets? This is why I said, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from, saying "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He there teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law. So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". We can understand that, at this point of Jesus teaching, Jesus knew what they were thinking about him from what He has just taught them in v.3-16. They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law.

Notice, after v.17-20, after addressing their wrong thinking about Him, he went on teaching them, from v. 21-48. This time, with specific reference to what is in the law. He refers to things in the law, and says something seemingly different. Let's take for instance v.21-22, Jesus taught,"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ BUT I SAY to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....". See also v.27-28, v. 31-32, v.33-37, v.38-42, v.43-44.

So, with the foregoing explanation, what you say, with regards to Mt.5:17, that Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, I'm sorry to say, is refuted, and so is wrong.

INCQUISITOR:

In another thread you wrote: "But we must not read the scriptures starting off with a view already made up in our mind. We must ALWAYS start with scriptures with an open mind and heart, in reading and studying scriptures. We must not read verses and take them to mean what we want them to mean or expect them to say what we want to hear. Rather, we must let scriptures tell us what God wanted for us to know."

Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind.

You wrote, "They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law."

Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea? You have a perverted way of "letting scriptures tell you what God wants you to know!"

In Mt. 5:18, Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath?

Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?

ME:

You said "Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind".

What view made up in my mind INCquisitor? If you will, refute what I posted with regards to Matthew 5:1-16 by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted.

You asked "Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea?"

And what pre-conceived idea of mine are you talking about?

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill".

"Do not THINK", Jesus told them. What can you deduce from this? He did not say this for no reason. He could have just simply said 'I did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill', if there is no reason to say 'Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets'.

Read what Jesus taught them in v.3-16. Are these teachings found in the Law or would you say they are new? Read what Jesus, after telling them what He said in v.17-20, taught them in v.21-48. Are these not things in the law that He mentions, and to which He says something seemingly different or new?

You asked "Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath? Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?"

I know that Jesus was always accused of breaking the Sabbath. Are you saying, by that, that He did not fulfill the O.T. Law, and sinned?

You take the law in v.17 as to refer to that said in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Are these not part of the O.T. laws?
---------------------------

ME:

You said "Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Jesus tells them in v.20, teaching them "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus did not tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus neither did tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses. But what can be understood is that Jesus tells them this to mean that, they are mistaken, if they think that the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees will lead and have them enter the Kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is telling them, is that, UNLESS their righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, they will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, Jesus speaks of "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" in verse Mt.5:20. What do you say Jesus is referring to by "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus did not have to tell his audience that "no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses." The Scribes and the Pharisees were fanatic about the observance of the law of Moses. Therefore, it stands to reason that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees by following the law of Moses, even if Jesus did not say this.

Apostle Paul wrote, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:1-4).

Israel is composed of Jews and among them are the Scribes and the Pharisees. To these people, righteousness means strict compliance with tradition and the laws of Moses.

To exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees, one must "submit to the righteousness of God."

ME:

Ok, let me try to get what you are saying here. You seem to speak of the righteousness of two, that of the Scribes and Pharisees, and that of God, and is not talking about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what they do and think to be right.

But in v.20, what Jesus is talking about is clearly about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what it is they do and think and even teach to be the righteousness one needs to have in order for one to enter the Kingdom of God, and concerns the righteousness of whom He speaks to, His audience. So, even if you find what you say stands to reason, it's not what makes it to be what is said and meant in the verse.

Here is v. 20 and I'll put in CAPS the important words you should not fail to take emphasis and consider in trying to understand what it says, "For I say to you, that UNLESS YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus says "UNLESS", meaning, 'except on the condition that'. So, Jesus is telling them of a condition. What is that? That is, YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. The verse says "YOUR" righteousness. So, the condition is with regards one's righteousness as compared to that of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Clearly, the righteousness of God is not in view here in verse 20. The verse says "YOU" will by no means enter the kingdom of Heaven. What Jesus says here concerns them to whom He says these things, and is with regards the matter of entering the Kingdom of God, in relation to the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven on the condition that THEIR righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees, or that, they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven if their righteousness does not exceed that of the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That is all there is in there. There is nothing Jesus said about how they will exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. To say that the verse speak of such thing here is simply going beyond what is written there. I hope that you now are able to understand the verse.

 
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Responses

  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 7:41 AM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 10:07 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 1:23 PM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 21, 2016, 4:20 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 6:07 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 8:14 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 24, 2016, 10:38 AM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 25, 2016, 7:03 AM
                  1. Anyone who desires to attain eternal life must heed the gospel of Christ. - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:12 PM
                    1. INCquisitor evades the arguments...can't refute. - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 1:18 AM
     
  2. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 7:54 AM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 10:11 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 1:27 PM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 21, 2016, 4:25 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 6:14 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 8:34 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 24, 2016, 4:30 PM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 25, 2016, 7:07 AM
                  1. Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:22 PM
                    1. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 6:38 AM
                      1. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on Apr 18, 2017, 4:12 PM
                      2. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 9:55 PM
                      3. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on May 18, 2017, 6:43 PM
                      4. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on May 19, 2017, 9:10 AM
                      5. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on May 21, 2017, 5:08 PM
                      6. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on May 22, 2017, 9:14 AM
                      7. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - INCquisitor on May 22, 2017, 3:26 PM
                      8. Re: Jesus was sent to save sinners (Matt. 1:21). - Michael on May 22, 2017, 8:19 PM
     
  3. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 8:46 AM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 10:47 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 3:54 PM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 21, 2016, 5:22 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 7:04 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 9:25 AM
              1. Jesus did not come to destroy the prophets, that's true. - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:37 PM
                1. Prophets is plural, so it is not just Ezekiel. - Tomas on Feb 25, 2017, 8:54 PM
                  1. Obviously, you do NOT know what Jesus was sent by God for. - INCquisitor on Mar 4, 2017, 3:36 PM
                    1. Sure, the main thing Jesus was sent by God for was to die for our sins, - Tomas on Mar 4, 2017, 7:24 PM
                      1. God did not send Jesus to "die for our sins." - INCquisitor on Mar 5, 2017, 12:18 PM
                      2. Romans 10:4 says "For Christ is the end of the law , so that there may be - Tomas on Mar 5, 2017, 4:00 PM
                      3. Paul was referring to rightousness of faith" (Rom. 10:6). - INCquiditor on Mar 6, 2017, 6:04 PM
                      4. Yes, faith is necessary for salvation. And Rom. 10:9 does specify two salvation - Tomas on Mar 7, 2017, 11:23 PM
                      5. You say, "That means we NEED to OBEY him." - INCquisitor on Mar 12, 2017, 5:24 AM
                      6. I obey Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15. That instruction permits us not to always wash - Tomas on Mar 12, 2017, 6:51 PM
                      7. If you MISINTERPRET Matt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15... - INCquisitor on Mar 14, 2017, 6:35 PM
                      8. I do not misinterpret Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15, you do. - Tomas on Mar 15, 2017, 6:44 AM
                      9. Matt. 15:11 and MNarrk 7:15 is NOT about eating with unwashed hands. - INCquiitor on Mar 16, 2017, 6:34 PM
                      10. It sure is. Look at the context. - Tomas on Mar 16, 2017, 10:28 PM
                      11. You are thinking beyond what is written Tomas. - INCquisitor on Apr 6, 2017, 5:58 PM
                      12. No, I am going by all that is written there. - Tomas on Apr 6, 2017, 10:17 PM
                      13. Jesus did not say, "with washed hands" either. - INCquisitor on Apr 8, 2017, 4:17 PM
                      14. Jesus was responding to criticism in Mt. 15:2 about them eating with unwashed hands. - Tomas on Apr 8, 2017, 8:24 PM
                      15. Re: Jesus was responding to criticism in Mt. 15:2 about them eating with unwashed hands. - INCquisitor on May 18, 2017, 6:49 PM
                      16. The issue Jesus reacted to was the tradition of washing hands. - Tomas on May 28, 2017, 1:25 AM
                      17. You are saying that Jeus LIED, aren't you? - INCquisitor on May 28, 2017, 4:27 PM
                      18. Jesus did not lie, of course. You just misunderstood what he said there. - Tomas on Jun 10, 2017, 9:29 PM
     
  4. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 20, 2016, 9:21 AM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 20, 2016, 11:00 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 5:50 PM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 10:02 AM
          1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 5:13 PM
            1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 1:49 AM
              1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Apr 16, 2017, 4:08 PM
                1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Apr 17, 2017, 11:43 AM
                  1. The gospel you preach does NOT reveal the "righteousness of God." - INCquisitor on Apr 18, 2017, 4:16 PM
                    1. Re: The gospel you preach does NOT reveal the "righteousness of God." - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 11:22 PM
     
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