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Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 21 2016 at 4:20 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: The Gospel Of Christ

 
ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.

ME:

Romans 11:11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

If you didn't know, Paul tells us in Rom.11:11 regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. What is this salvation that Paul speaks about here? Is it not salvation from the wages of sin and is unto eternal life?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Paul here speaks of a "promise". Promise to whom? To those who are of the law. Who do you say these people are? And to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Who do you say these people are?

Now, what is this promise all about? Is this not about salvation from the wages of sin, and salvation unto eternal life?
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.

ME:

See my post above about Rom.11:11, and Rom. 4:16.

The matter under this segment of our discussion here is your teaching that the ancient people of God were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. So, I asked what you have to say about this, through the questions I asked:

If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right?

What does that mean then?

It means then that they are unsaved, since their sins were not paid for anyone, that then they all died for their own sins. They all then, having no savior such as Christ to pay for their sins, will suffer the penalty of their sins.

This is what becomes of them relative to your teaching.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?

ME:

No. I'm not at all saying I know more than you do, about the promises that Paul speaks of. I am just trying to understand what it is you teach as written in your post.

Yes, you did say that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. That is why I ask these questions to be clarified. For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell.

So, please tell me what you understand what the "promises" that God gave to them, which Paul speaks about.

INCQUISITOR:

You say, "For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell."

Please cite the scriptures relating to these so-called "promises" that God gave to the fathers so we can both go over these together and see if your understanding is correct.

ME:

See what I have posted above regarding Rom.11:11 and Rom.4:16.

 
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Responses

  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 22, 2016, 6:07 PM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 23, 2016, 8:14 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Nov 24, 2016, 10:38 AM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Nov 25, 2016, 7:03 AM
          1. Anyone who desires to attain eternal life must heed the gospel of Christ. - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:12 PM
            1. INCquisitor evades the arguments...can't refute. - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 1:18 AM
     
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