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Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 23 2016 at 9:25 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: The Gospel Of Christ

 
You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

ME:

In Mt.5:1-16, Jesus is teaching about many things. Is Jesus teaching them the law and the prophets? This is why I said, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from, saying "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He there teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law. So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". We can understand that, at this point of Jesus teaching, Jesus knew what they were thinking about him from what He has just taught them in v.3-16. They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law.

Notice, after v.17-20, after addressing their wrong thinking about Him, he went on teaching them, from v. 21-48. This time, with specific reference to what is in the law. He refers to things in the law, and says something seemingly different. Let's take for instance v.21-22, Jesus taught,"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ BUT I SAY to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....". See also v.27-28, v. 31-32, v.33-37, v.38-42, v.43-44.

So, with the foregoing explanation, what you say, with regards to Mt.5:17, that Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, I'm sorry to say, is refuted, and so is wrong.

INCQUISITOR:

In another thread you wrote: "But we must not read the scriptures starting off with a view already made up in our mind. We must ALWAYS start with scriptures with an open mind and heart, in reading and studying scriptures. We must not read verses and take them to mean what we want them to mean or expect them to say what we want to hear. Rather, we must let scriptures tell us what God wanted for us to know."

Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind.

You wrote, "They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law."

Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea? You have a perverted way of "letting scriptures tell you what God wants you to know!"

In Mt. 5:18, Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath?

Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?

ME:

You said "Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind".

What view made up in my mind INCquisitor? If you will, refute what I posted with regards to Matthew 5:1-16 by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted.

INCQUISITOR:

Your view that what Jesus said in Matt. 5:17 is Jesus' answer to what his audience was THINKING to support your pre-conceived belief that Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses in Matt. 5:17.

ME:

That is not a pre-conceived idea INCquisitor. That is what can be deduced from what is written in Matthew 5.

INCQUISITOR:

What you deduced from what is written in Matthew 5 is your pre-conceived idea because nobody has ever shown you Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 before.

ME:

Well, as I pointed out, it is not a pre-conceived idea. And just saying that it is, does not refute the explanation I gave you in my previous posts here under this segment.

As I said, refute what I posted with regards to Matthew 5:1-16 by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted, and your doctrine is proven to be erroneous and false.

INCQUISITOR:

Cast aside your pre-conceived ideas, then read my posts above again.

ME:

There is no pre-conceived ideas to cast aside INCquisitor.

Better yet, go ahead and properly refute what I posted, if you will and if you can. Refute properly by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted, and your doctrine is proven to be erroneous and false.
------------------------------
You asked "Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea?"

And what pre-conceived idea of mine are you talking about?

INCQUISITOR:

Your pre-conceived idea is that Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses in Matt. 5:17, not Deut. 24:16 and Ezek, 18:20..

ME:

That again is not a pre-conceived idea INCquisitor. And again, that is what can be deduced from what is written in Matthew 5, which apparently it is not, in your reading.

INCQUISITOR:

As I said, What you deduced from what is written in Matthew 5 is your pre-conceived idea because nobody has ever shown you Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 before.

ME:

Well, as I pointed out, it is not a pre-conceived idea. And just saying that it is, does not refute the explanation I gave you in my previous posts here under this segment.

As I said, refute what I posted with regards to Matthew 5:1-16 by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted, and your doctrine is proven to be erroneous and false.

INCQUISITOR:

You know I have refuted your arguments. There is nothing else I can do.

ME:

Obviously there is nothing else you can do to make a proper refutation.

As I said, refute properly by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted, and your doctrine is proven to be erroneous and false.
------------------------------
Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill".

"Do not THINK", Jesus told them. What can you deduce from this? He did not say this for no reason. He could have just simply said 'I did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill', if there is no reason to say 'Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets'.

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle John wrote that "there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).

Jesus must have told his disciples beforehand his mission to save sinners, how he was to die for the sins of sinners and God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners. In Matt. 5:17, Jesus is telling his disciples not to think that he came to destroy but to fulfill God's Law of righteousness.

It must be noted that God did not send Jesus to fulfill the Law of Moses. God sent Jesus to save sinners from their sin and dying for sinners as propitiation for their sins is an integral part of God's Plan of Salvation. It is, therefore, unlikely that Jesus failed to mention God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 to his disciples.

Thus, to even think that Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses is absurd.

ME:

Yes, I know what John wrote. And for those which were not written, we obviously would not know what they are, or do you?

Well, I would not comment on what you speculate there. Your speculation there simply would not explain why Jesus have to tell them "Do not THINK ...."

You say here that "God did not send Jesus to fulfill the Law of Moses". Where in scriptures do we find what you teach here?

INCQUISITOR:

The angel told Joseph that the baby that Mary will bear shall be named Jesus for he will save his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Jesus further said, "For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17).

There is no scripture that says God sent Jesus to fulfill the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses has nothing to do with Jesus' mission to save his people or the "world" from their sins. If fulfilling the Law of Moses were enough to get sinners saved, God would not have needed to send Jesus into the world.

ME:

That's right. There is no scripture that says God sent Jesus to fulfill the law of Moses. But, Jesus is a Jew. And God requires the Jews to follow all of the law of Moses, is it not? If Jesus breaks any of the law, then he is guilty of sin. And if he is, then he too needed to be forgiven in the same sense that all sinners needs to be forgiven. And if he is with sin, will he not then must die for his own sin? He then would not be able to do his mission, to be the savior of the world.

INCQUISITOR:

I don't anchor my faith on what others say beyond what is written. God sent Jesus into the world that the world through him might be saved. That's what the Bible says. The Bible does not say that God sent Jesus into the world to fulfill the Law of Moses.

Jesus said the Father made him pure or sanctified him (John 10:36). Therefore, Jesus had no sin and was qualified to die for sinners. Again that's what the Bible says. I don't waste my time on speculations or thoughts beyond what is written.

ME:

Of course we must not waste time on speculations or thoughts beyond what is written.

Apparently you don't believe the following:

1. That Jesus is a Jew.
2. That God requires the Jews to follow all of the law of Moses.
3. That if Jesus breaks the Law, He is guilty of sin.
4. That if Jesus sinned, he needs to repent to be forgiven.
5. That if Jesus have sinned, he needs a savior.
6. That if Jesus needs a savior, he could not be the savior of himself, much less of the world.

You said "Father made him pure or sanctified him (John 10:36)".

When did the Father sanctified Jesus? Was it before, as you say, sinned by breaking the Sabbath, or after?
---------------------------
And is not Jesus a Jew? Should that not mean that He must fulfill the Law of Moses?

INCQUISITOR:

It is not true that Jesus, being a Jew, means that he must fulfill the Law of Moses. In fact, scriptures attest that Jesus broke the Sabbath and added new things to the Law of Moses. Hence, there is no reason to believe that Jesus was teaching about the Law of Moses.

ME:

God requires all the Jews to follow all of the law of Moses. If you say that is not true, then scriptures is false.

And if you say that Jesus broke the Sabbath, then he is guilty of breaking the law and is a sinner. And as I have explained, if he is guilty of sin, then he too needed to be forgiven in the same sense that all sinners needs to be forgiven. And if he is with sin, will he not then must die for his own sin? He then would not be able to do his mission, to be the savior of the world.

INCQUISITOR:

I see that your mind is closed to anything that contradicts your pre-conceived ideas. I sense that you are not really after truth but are only interested in feeding your bloated ego.

ME:

Not my mind INCquisitor. That is why I am trying to see if there is any truth in what you preach here, so I can consider them.

The thing is, you apparently can't defend what it is you teach here.
---------------------------
You said that "It is, therefore, unlikely that Jesus failed to mention God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 to his disciples".

That is clearly a presumption or an speculation, INCquisitor, and so, will only be a presumption or speculation, and not necessarily be true.

INCQUISITOR:

Presumption or speculation supported by facts is true.

In order for Jesus to fulfill his mission, Jesus needed to tell people about God's Plan of salvation. Jesus needed to tell people that he was sent to die for sinners as propitiation for their sins. Jesus needed to tell people about God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:29. Jesus needed to tell people God's Plan for him to be able to die for the sins of his people without violating God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners.

These are presumptions or speculations that are supported by facts. Jesus would have been unable to fulfill his mission to save his people or the world from their sins if he did not deliver these messages.

This is the whole and true gospel or message of Christ which is God's power to salvation for everyone who believes... (Rom. 1:16), FOR IN IT (this gospel or message) the righteousness of God is revealed... (Rom. 1:17).

ME:

Perhaps you need to consult an English scholar or professor on the matter of what presumption and what speculation is.

INCQUISITOR:

Is that all you can say? Can't you say anything right about what I have posted?

ME:

Well, you just repeat what you said in your OP, to which I won't comment until it is time to do so. For what you say there is premised to the things I first wanted clarified, and have made a refutation.
-----------------------------
Read what Jesus taught them in v.3-16. Are these teachings found in the Law or would you say they are new? Read what Jesus, after telling them what He said in v.17-20, taught them in v.21-48. Are these not things in the law that He mentions, and to which He says something seemingly different or new?

You asked "Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath? Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?"

I know that Jesus was always accused of breaking the Sabbath. Are you saying, by that, that He did not fulfill the O.T. Law, and sinned?

You take the law in v.17 as to refer to that said in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Are these not part of the O.T. laws?

INCQUISITOR:

In Matt. 5:18-19, Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Jesus broke the Sabbath and added new things to the Law of Moses BEFORE all was fulfilled. This proves that Jesus was NOT referring to the Law of Moses. Otherwise, Jesus would have been telling a lie.

The ONLY important Law that Jesus was to fulfill to accomplish his mission is God's Law or righteousness written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 are parts of the Law. But what I said is that Matt. 5:17 refers specifically to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. God sent Jesus to save sinners from their sin. Jesus could not save sinners without dying for sinners as propitiation from their sins.

But Jesus cannot die for sinners unless he fulfills God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. This was what Jesus was telling his disciples in Matt. 5:17.

ME:

What I gather from your response here to my questions is that, Jesus, here in Mt.5:3-16, is teaching new things, not therefore found in the OT law.

You teach that Jesus have broken the Sabbath. And since the law says that anyone who breaks the Sabbath, commits sin, then have you not then made Jesus, a sinner?

And what can you say about scriptures which talks of Christ as the Lamb of God?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said he was "sanctified" (made pure) by the Father (John 10:36). Hence, the Bible says, Jesus had no sin and Jesus is the Lamb of God.

ME:

Yes Jesus was sanctified by the Father. Does that make him exempt from sinning?

What is your response to the question, what can you say about scriptures which talks of Christ as the Lamb of God? What does that say of the Christ?

INCQUISITOR:

I'm sorry you can't understand what I am saying. The Bible says Jesus had no sin and he is the Lamb of God. That means every sin he committed was forgiven by the Father.

ME:

I presume you are saying that at the sanctification of Jesus, every sin he COMMITTED was then forgiven by the Father, and that does not make him exempt from sinning after.

When did the Father sanctified Jesus? Was it before, as you say, sinned by breaking the Sabbath, or after?

Also, please tell us your teaching about what scripture meant when it says that Jesus is the lamb of God.
-----------------------------
You teach that "The ONLY important Law that Jesus was to fulfill to accomplish his mission is God's Law or righteousness written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20". Is this teaching found in scriptures? Can you cite scriptures that tells us so?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said, "Do no think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17).

There is no scripture that specifically says that the ONLY important Law that Jesus was to fulfill to accomplish his mission is God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

However, this is the ONLY Law of God that Jesus must fulfill in order to accomplish his mission of dying for sinners as propitiation or their sins and save them from the wages of their sins (Rom. 6:23). And Jesus said that "till heaven and earth pass away (judgment day - 2 Peter 3:7, 10), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled"
9Matt. 5:18).

Can you show me a scripture that says otherwise?

ME:

That's right. There is no scripture that specifically says that the ONLY important Law that Jesus was to fulfill to accomplish his mission is God's Law or righteousness concerning sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

John 1:29
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

And so, my question for you in the above segment is relevant here.

What can you say about scriptures which talks of Christ as the Lamb of God? What does that say of Christ's mission of dying for sinners as propitiation of their sins?

INCQUISITOR:

John 1:29 talks only of Jesus, "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" but it does not tell us HOW Jesus takes away the sin of the world.

Your statement that "Christ's mission of dying for sinners as propitiation of their sins," is FALSE. The TRUE mission of Christ as written in scripture, is to SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21) and "save the world" (John 3:17).

ME:

Ok, John 1:29 does not tell us HOW Jesus takes away the sin of the world. Can you tell us your teaching about what scripture meant when it says that Jesus is the lamb of God?

You said "Your statement that "Christ's mission of dying for sinners as propitiation of their sins," is FALSE".

If you did not know, that part of my statement "Christ's mission of dying for sinners as propitiation of their sins" is a quote from you. Are you now saying that what you said there, which I quoted, is FALSE? Here, let me post the full statement where you said this:

"However, this is the ONLY Law of God that Jesus must fulfill in order to accomplish his mission of dying for sinners as propitiation or their sins and save them from the wages of their sins (Rom. 6:23)".
--------------------------
You said "But what I said is that Matt. 5:17 refers specifically to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20". Well, when one reads Mt. 5, no reference is made nor was there any quote to what is written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, INCquisitor. So, I wonder how you could say that, even be sure that that is what Jesus is telling his disciples in Mt.5:17.

Mt 5:17 says "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". I understand that you teach that the "law" refers specifically to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. How about "the prophets", what do you teach that it means or refers to?

INCQUISITOR:

Go back to what I have written above and hopefully you will get to understand how I came to the conclusion that Jesus was referring to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 when he said, "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

I don't think it matters what Jesus intended when he included the Prophets in his statement. It must be God's way of "hiding" his wisdom from the wise and prudent (Matt. 11:25).

ME:

I have, and I see not even a hint that "the law" was referring specifically to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

And why does a part of the word of God not matter now to you so suddenly?

And isn't that an obvious and cheap excuse, making "the prophets" included in Jesus' statement, which is God's words, God's way of "hiding" his wisdom? Well, if that is all you can say about that, making "the prophets" as to really not matter or have no sense, I think I have nothing further more to say. I'll just have to take it as it is what you teach regarding that.

INCQUISITOR:

The TRUE gospel of Christ is God's power to salvation for everyone who believes.

Everyone who desires to be saved from the wages of sin and attain God's gift of eternal life is invited to go over it with an objective mind.

There is nothing to gain from blindly believing a FALSE pre-conceived gospel of Christ.

ME:

Well, those who read this part of the thread could judge for themselves who sees and who is blind.

 
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Responses

  1. Jesus did not come to destroy the prophets, that's true. - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 12:37 PM
    1. Prophets is plural, so it is not just Ezekiel. - Tomas on Feb 25, 2017, 8:54 PM
      1. Obviously, you do NOT know what Jesus was sent by God for. - INCquisitor on Mar 4, 2017, 3:36 PM
        1. Sure, the main thing Jesus was sent by God for was to die for our sins, - Tomas on Mar 4, 2017, 7:24 PM
          1. God did not send Jesus to "die for our sins." - INCquisitor on Mar 5, 2017, 12:18 PM
            1. Romans 10:4 says "For Christ is the end of the law , so that there may be - Tomas on Mar 5, 2017, 4:00 PM
              1. Paul was referring to rightousness of faith" (Rom. 10:6). - INCquiditor on Mar 6, 2017, 6:04 PM
                1. Yes, faith is necessary for salvation. And Rom. 10:9 does specify two salvation - Tomas on Mar 7, 2017, 11:23 PM
                  1. You say, "That means we NEED to OBEY him." - INCquisitor on Mar 12, 2017, 5:24 AM
                    1. I obey Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15. That instruction permits us not to always wash - Tomas on Mar 12, 2017, 6:51 PM
                      1. If you MISINTERPRET Matt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15... - INCquisitor on Mar 14, 2017, 6:35 PM
                      2. I do not misinterpret Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15, you do. - Tomas on Mar 15, 2017, 6:44 AM
                      3. Matt. 15:11 and MNarrk 7:15 is NOT about eating with unwashed hands. - INCquiitor on Mar 16, 2017, 6:34 PM
                      4. It sure is. Look at the context. - Tomas on Mar 16, 2017, 10:28 PM
                      5. You are thinking beyond what is written Tomas. - INCquisitor on Apr 6, 2017, 5:58 PM
                      6. No, I am going by all that is written there. - Tomas on Apr 6, 2017, 10:17 PM
                      7. Jesus did not say, "with washed hands" either. - INCquisitor on Apr 8, 2017, 4:17 PM
                      8. Jesus was responding to criticism in Mt. 15:2 about them eating with unwashed hands. - Tomas on Apr 8, 2017, 8:24 PM
                      9. Re: Jesus was responding to criticism in Mt. 15:2 about them eating with unwashed hands. - INCquisitor on May 18, 2017, 6:49 PM
                      10. The issue Jesus reacted to was the tradition of washing hands. - Tomas on May 28, 2017, 1:25 AM
                      11. You are saying that Jeus LIED, aren't you? - INCquisitor on May 28, 2017, 4:27 PM
                      12. Jesus did not lie, of course. You just misunderstood what he said there. - Tomas on Jun 10, 2017, 9:29 PM
     
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