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Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 23 2016 at 10:02 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: The Gospel Of Christ

 
ME:

You said "Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Jesus tells them in v.20, teaching them "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus did not tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus neither did tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses. But what can be understood is that Jesus tells them this to mean that, they are mistaken, if they think that the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees will lead and have them enter the Kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is telling them, is that, UNLESS their righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, they will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, Jesus speaks of "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" in verse Mt.5:20. What do you say Jesus is referring to by "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus did not have to tell his audience that "no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses." The Scribes and the Pharisees were fanatic about the observance of the law of Moses. Therefore, it stands to reason that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees by following the law of Moses, even if Jesus did not say this.

Apostle Paul wrote, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:1-4).

Israel is composed of Jews and among them are the Scribes and the Pharisees. To these people, righteousness means strict compliance with tradition and the laws of Moses.

To exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees, one must "submit to the righteousness of God."

ME:

Ok, let me try to get what you are saying here. You seem to speak of the righteousness of two, that of the Scribes and Pharisees, and that of God, and is not talking about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what they do and think to be right.

But in v.20, what Jesus is talking about is clearly about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what it is they do and think and even teach to be the righteousness one needs to have in order for one to enter the Kingdom of God, and concerns the righteousness of whom He speaks to, His audience. So, even if you find what you say stands to reason, it's not what makes it to be what is said and meant in the verse.

Here is v. 20 and I'll put in CAPS the important words you should not fail to take emphasis and consider in trying to understand what it says, "For I say to you, that UNLESS YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus says "UNLESS", meaning, 'except on the condition that'. So, Jesus is telling them of a condition. What is that? That is, YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. The verse says "YOUR" righteousness. So, the condition is with regards one's righteousness as compared to that of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Clearly, the righteousness of God is not in view here in verse 20. The verse says "YOU" will by no means enter the kingdom of Heaven. What Jesus says here concerns them to whom He says these things, and is with regards the matter of entering the Kingdom of God, in relation to the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven on the condition that THEIR righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees, or that, they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven if their righteousness does not exceed that of the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That is all there is in there. There is nothing Jesus said about how they will exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. To say that the verse speak of such thing here is simply going beyond what is written there. I hope that you now are able to understand the verse.

INCQUISITOR:

That's the danger of not "comparing spiritual things with spiritual as the Holy Spirit teaches" (1 Cor. 2:13).

Matt. 5:20 is self-explanatory. But understanding verse 20 is useless UNLESS one knows HOW anyone can EXCEED the righteousness of Scribes and Pharisees.

How can one EXCEED the righteousness of Scribes and Pharisees to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Apostle Paul's answer to the question is found in Romans 10:1-4.

Apostle Paul wrote, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:1-4).

Perhaps you fail to understand what apostle Paul means in his letter to the Roman members of the church that Christ built.

Apostle Paul desires that Israel may also be saved since "they have a zeal for God." Paul knew how religiously Scribes and Pharisees conform with traditions and the Laws of Moses.

But Paul says, their zeal for God is not according to knowledge. The Scribes and Pharisees are "ignorant of the righteousness of God." Hence, in "seeking to establish their own righteousness," they "have not submitted to the righteousness of God." For this reason, Scribes and Pharisees will not be saved as his brethren are.

Therefore, anyone who desires to enter the kingdom of heaven must RXCEED the "zeal for God" of Scribes and Pharisees by knowing the righteousness of God and submitting to it.

ME:

So, are you saying that Jesus taught something there in v.20 that could not be understood by his audience, since the NT scriptures was not yet written?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus must have said more than what he said in Matt. 5:20 to clarify his message.

Apostle John wrote: "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the book that would be written" (John 21:25).

At any rate, the Bible tells us that his disciples would ask him to clarify anything he says that they don't understand. An example of this is found in Matthew 15:15.

ME:

So, Jesus MUST HAVE said more. Nobody could know what that could be, right? So, what do we do? We must not go beyond what is written, right?

And so, by what you teach under this segment, it remains then that Jesus taught something in v.20 that could not be understood by his audience since the NT scriptures was not yet written.
----------------------------
I agree, Mt. 5:20 is self explanatory. And I have explained it to you, inch by inch, bit by bit. And you have not refuted any of my explanation of v.20, except that you say "That's the danger of not "comparing spiritual things with spiritual as the Holy Spirit teaches". And just went on to teach your doctrine of how one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees, which is clearly not what Jesus intends to teach there to His audience.

INCQUISITOR:

How can I refute your explanation of verse 20? You merely reiterated what it says!

While it's true that verse 20 is mot about HOW one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, I believe that anyone who desires to enter the kingdom of heaven must be interested to know HOW one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees based on scriptures?

Is anything wrong with what I teach? Do you know of any other way to exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees?

ME:

You said "How can I refute your explanation of verse 20? You merely reiterated what it says"!

Let's see if I just repeated what it says. Here, let me post it here.

"In v.20, what Jesus is talking about is clearly about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what it is they do and think and even teach to be the righteousness one needs to have in order for one to enter the Kingdom of God, and concerns the righteousness of whom He speaks to, His audience. So, even if you find what you say stands to reason, it's not what makes it to be what is said and meant in the verse.

Here is v. 20 and I'll put in CAPS the important words you should not fail to take emphasis and consider in trying to understand what it says, "For I say to you, that UNLESS YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus says "UNLESS", meaning, 'except on the condition that'. So, Jesus is telling them of a condition. What is that? That is, YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. The verse says "YOUR" righteousness. So, the condition is with regards one's righteousness as compared to that of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Clearly, the righteousness of God is not in view here in verse 20. The verse says "YOU" will by no means enter the kingdom of Heaven. What Jesus says here concerns them to whom He says these things, and is with regards the matter of entering the Kingdom of God, in relation to the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven on the condition that THEIR righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees, or that, they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven if their righteousness does not exceed that of the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That is all there is in there. There is nothing Jesus said about how they will exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees".

Now, if you say "How can I refute your explanation of verse 20? You merely reiterated what it says", which evidently I did not, it just shows that, what I have said there is like repeating what verse 20 says, which means that there is really nothing for you to refute as it says the same thing as what the verse says.

You asked "Is anything wrong with what I teach"?

Yes. That is what can be found in our discussion in this thread. As of this point, it's about your teaching regarding Mt.5:20, centering on your take of the law as specifically referring to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek.18:20. And so, whatever it is you teach based on this automatically is erroneous as well, for it is based on a wrong premise.

 
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Responses

  1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Feb 19, 2017, 5:13 PM
    1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 1:49 AM
      1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - INCquisitor on Apr 16, 2017, 4:08 PM
        1. Re: The Gospel Of Christ - Michael on Apr 17, 2017, 11:43 AM
          1. The gospel you preach does NOT reveal the "righteousness of God." - INCquisitor on Apr 18, 2017, 4:16 PM
            1. Re: The gospel you preach does NOT reveal the "righteousness of God." - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 11:22 PM
     
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