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Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou.

April 18 2017 at 4:27 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou.

 
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom.10:17). Not by anything else.

Now, faith COMES, it says. Here are some questions:

1. Where do you think it comes from?
2. Does it come from you, from someone else, or from God?
3. If you say faith comes from you, can you expound on that?
4. If you say faith comes from someone else, can you expound on that?
5. If you say faith comes from God, can you expound on that?

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of the word "come" is different from mine. By taking the verse as a whole, I understand the word "come" to mean that faith results from HEARING the word of God.

Apostle Paul makes this clear when he said, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent" (Rom. 10:13-15)?

So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT.

God SENT Jesus into the world that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16; c.f. John 8:42; 17:3).

Jesus told his disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples into all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19). "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

"Faith cometh by hearing". It means that, for one to have faith, he must hear. And what is there to hear, except the words coming from someone. And if we are talking of faith in God, so we are referring to hearing the words of God. And so, then we must have to hear the words of God, not the words of anybody else. By such, faith in God can come to the hearer. And if the hearer believes God's words, then his hearing the words of God have resulted then to the hearer having faith, faith in God.

You said "So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT."

The Father have sent the Son to the world, and in time, the Son sent the HS to His apostles to dwell in them and be their paracletos, to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that Jesus said to them, and will testify of Him. The apostles were sent by Jesus to be His witnesses and preach these to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

INCQUISITOR:

It is not enough to simply read the scriptures by yourself in order to understand what the scripture says. A man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury (Acts 8:27), was reading Isaiah the prophet (Acts 8:28), when Philip ran to him and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" (Acts 8:30). And the eunuch said, "How can I, unless someone guides me? And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him" (Acts 8:31).

A majority of all self-professing Christians all claim to have read John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God. How come these people believe that Jesus is ALSO God?

These self-professing Christians have all read Romans 10:9 where apostle Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God RAISED Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." How come these self-professing Christians INSIST that Jesus raised HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD?

Therefore, WHAT YOU SAY IS false.

ME:

You mentioned of the Eunuch, who said "How can I, unless someone guides me?". And it was Philip, who guided him. Now, you must not forget that the Spirit was with Philip. And it is the HS whom Jesus sent to His apostles to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that He said to them, and these things were written in scriptures. It is them who were commissioned by Jesus to preach. And so we see Philip preaching to the Eunuch (it is wise to note what Philip preached to the Eunuch). But then, the apostles are all now dead and there were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of, as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. So, where can we hear the preaching of the apostles? That's right, in scriptures. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard them preached in their days, including that of Philip. Reading or hearing somebody reading scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach. So that, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, through scriptures, God's words.

INCQUISITOR:

You didn't address my questions.

I wrote: " A majority of all self-professing Christians all claim to have read John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God. How come these people believe that Jesus is ALSO God?

These self-professing Christians have all read Romans 10:9 where apostle Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God RAISED Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." How come these self-professing Christians INSIST that Jesus raised HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD?

Therefore, it is FALSE to assume that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach." What one hears are NOT the TRUE words of God but words of God that are ALTERED to suit a preacher's own man-made doctrines.

ME:

Oh, sorry about that.

I really can't tell INCquisitor in their case. Perhaps, you can ask them why.

On my part, I read John 8:40 and John 17:3, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find these verses neither saying that Jesus is not God, nor saying that Jesus is God, nor saying that Jesus is ALSO God.

I also read Romans 10:9, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find this verse saying that Jesus did not raised himself from the dead. But I have read John 2:19-22 where John says:

"19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."

And have read also John 10:18 where John says:

10 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Now, these scriptures, and the words of Jesus himself, that is, "in three days I will raise it up", and "I have power to take it again", clearly tells me that Jesus have the power to resurrect himself and have indeed risen from the dead. For when He had risen from the dead, scriptures says "His disciples remembered that He had said this to them.", that is, "I will raise it up.”

Why people like you don't see that or perhaps don't accept that, makes me sad for them.

You said "Therefore, it is FALSE to assume that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach." What one hears are NOT the TRUE words of God but words of God that are ALTERED to suit a preacher's own man-made doctrines."

How you consider this statement "READING or hearing somebody READING the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach" is FALSE, just tells me that you don't believe that what one can read in scriptures, the NT in particular" is not what the apostles preached. And you even say that what one hears (implied to be hearing the READING of scriptures by somebody) are not true words of God. Makes me feel sorry for you.

INCQUISITOR:

Your statement that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scripture, is hearing the apostles preach" is proven FALSE by your own admission, to wit: "On my part, I read John 8:40 and John 17:3, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find these verses neither saying that Jesus is not God, nor saying that Jesus is God, nor saying that Jesus is ALSO God.

I also read Romans 10:9, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find this verse saying that Jesus did not raised himself from the dead. But I have read John 2:19-22 where John says:

"19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."

In Romans 10:9, apostle preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. In Acts 3:15, apostle Peter preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. These are scriptures where we HEAR apostles Paul and Peter preach that God RAISED Jesus from the dead.

Compare these scriptures with John 2:19-22 where apostle John preached what Jesus said. Did Jesus EXPLICITLY say that he will RAISE HIMSELF from the dead? No! You are simply THINKING BEYOND what apostle John wrote. Your imagination makes apostles Peter and Paul LIARS. You are NOT listening to apostles Peter and Paul. You are listening to whoever you HEARD reading from the scriptures.

Me:

John 2:19-22
"19 JESUS answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and THE WORD WHICH JESUS HAD SAID."

John 10:18 where JESUS says:
10 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

I thought you believe every word that Jesus said.

INCQUISITOR:

I also believe John 2:10-22 and John 10:18 but NOT in the way you understand these verses that CONTRADICTS what apostles Peter and Paul wrote in Acts 3:15 and Rom. 10:9.

Again, I ask you, did Jesus EXPLICITLY say in these verses that he will RAISE HIMSELF from the dead? You REFUSE to answer my question because you ARE stuck with your FALSE understanding of John 2:19-22 and Jon 10:18 that Jesus was saying he WILL RAISE HIMSELF from the dead.

Me:

There is contradiction between John 2:10-22 and John 10:18 with Rom. 10:9, and that, with regards your belief. As with mine, there is none.

I take all of God's words in scriptures as equally true and has no contradiction. And so, taking Rom. 10:9, John 2:19-22 and John 10:18, all then must be true. If your understanding of scriptures denies these truths, then there is the problem with you.

In John 10:18, Jesus said "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. THIS COMMAND I have received from My Father.”. And I believe that, don't you? Now, with regards the Father's commandments to Jesus, Jesus said in John 15:10, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.". So, there is no doubt that Jesus followed the Father's commandment to him in John 10:18. And there is nothing clearer than what is written in John 2:19-22 with regards this matter.

INCQUISITOR:

You say that, on the basis of your understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:18, Jesus raised HIMSELF from the dead. You say your belief does not contradict what apostles Peter and Paul wrote (that God raised Jesus from the dead- Acts 3:15; Rom. 10:9) because your understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:18 makes Jesus God in your mind.

To justify your FALSE understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:8, you conveniently set aside the words of Jesus written in John 8:40 where he says that he is a MAN and in John 17:3 where he tells the Father that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God.

While it is true that John 2:19-22, John 10:18, Acts 3:15 and Rom. 10:9, are ALL true, and I believe that too, YOUR understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:18 - that Jesus RAISED himself from the dead - is FALSE, Your understanding of these verses CONTRADICTS the word of God written in John 8:40, John 17:3, Acts 3:15 and Rom. 10:9.

Me:

I'm not at all posting to justify anything INCquisitor. And I neither set aside the words of Jesus written in John 8:40 nor any scripture for that matter, unlike you who have trashed pretty much every scripture that does not go with your understanding of scriptures. For I do believe that Jesus is a man. But you just refuse to believe that I do and insist that I really don't for you find that illogical since I believe He is God who became flesh, taking the form of a man. I am not forcing you to believe it. I'm just telling you that this is what the scriptures tells me.

INCQUISITOR:

You say you believe that Jesus is God who became flesh, taking the form of a man, because you say this is what the scriptures tell you. That's the consequence of NOT having faith in what Jesus says.

You say you believe that Jesus is a MAN but you set aside and ignore John 17:3 where Jesus says to the Father, "...that they may know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT."

As a result of ignoring and setting aside John 17:3, you FAILED to perceive the TWO truths that are revealed by Jesus in John 17:3. First, you FAILED to perceive the truth that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God. This means that NOBODY else is a TRUE God but the Father. Second, you FAILED to perceive the truth that Jesus was SENT by the Father who is the ONLY TRUE God. This means that Jesus is NOT a "God" who BECAME flesh.

Me:

Yes I believe that Jesus is God who became flesh, taking the form of a man, because this is what the scriptures tells me. That's the consequence of listening and hearing God's words in scriptures and not in any man, not even in my own understanding. I rely in God's words for the truth and submit myself to it. Wrong understanding of scriptures comes by when out of pride, one begins to bring his own understanding and his confidence in his own reasoning and limited human abilities, deceiving himself into thinking that he can understand the spiritual things of God by his natural senses and abilities.

I say I believe that Jesus is a MAN and do not set aside nor ignore John 17:3 nor any of God's words. I believe Jesus when He said, "...that they may know YOU (referring to His Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is Him that He sent. God, being the only true God and none other, has been revealed to Israel from the very beginning. The rest of the world knew this not, as evidenced by their worship and belief in many gods. Now, not even Israel knew who the Christ is, whom the one true God have sent to the world.

I hope you can answer the simple questions:

1. How did you know that there is only one true God and not many?
2. How did you know that God will send a Messiah to the world?
3. How have you come to believe that it is Jesus, the son of Mary, spoken of in the Bible is the Christ that God have sent?

You say and believe that Jesus is NOT a "God" who BECAME flesh because of John 8:40 and John 17:3. Yes, Jesus is not a God, because Jesus is God and not some other God, for there is but only one God. But, if that's what you understand out of the said scriptures, then so be it with you. As for me, John 8:40 speaks of Jesus to be a man. John 17:3 speaks of Jesus' Father to be the only true God and that He was sent by Him. God also revealed elsewhere in scriptures that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son, who came forth from Him. God, in scriptures, reveals that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That the Son of God came down from heaven, having been sent to the world below. That Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. That Jesus Christ knew no sin. And so on and so forth. And I believe all of that, not one that I pick out and do not believe. For all is God's words and so are true, faithful, powerful, and trustworthy.
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And yes I say that John 2:19-22 and John 10:8 does not contradict what apostles Peter and Paul wrote, that God raised Jesus from the dead. As I said I take all of God's words in scriptures as equally true and has no contradiction. And so, taking Rom. 10:9, John 2:19-22 and John 10:18, all then must be true and are not be to be taken as contradicting each other, which leads us to the understanding that Jesus is no other but God who became flesh.

INCQUISITOR:

It is your FALSE understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:8 and your IGNORING John 17:3 that leads you and other Trinitarians to the FALSE understanding that Jesus is no other but God who BECAME flesh. If only you have faith in what Jesus says in John 17:3, you would come to the realization that Jesus was SENT by God - NOT God who BECAME flesh.

Me:

In your view, I have a faulty understanding. I can understand that. And in my view, I see you as the one whose understanding is faulty. We have different views about God. In your view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not Lord to you, but the Son is. In my view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is Lord to me, and so is the Son. In your view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not your Savior, but the Son is. In my view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is my Savior, and so is the Son.
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Scriptures clearly say, faith comes by hearing the word of God. By hearing the the word OF God, it says. As such faith comes from God. And if it comes from God, we need to hear God. And we can hear God through His words. And His words are written, in scriptures. If you can't read, faith can come to you by having somebody read it for you, or by listening to one who reads scriptures. If you can read, read scriptures and faith can come to you.

If somebody tells you that, you are not to read scriptures, then he is a deceiver and is against God.
If somebody tells you that, you can read scriptures, but must not interpret it, then he is a deceiver and is against God.

INCQUISITOR:

What you are saying is DIFFERENT from what apostle Paul says in Romans 10:13-15. Apostle Paul specifies from WHOM we should HEAR the word of God. And apostle Paul provides hints on how to know when a preacher is SENT or not.

In 1 Cor. 2:13 apostle Paul wrote, "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual." A preacher SENT from God COMPARES spiritual things with spiritual.

In 2 Cor. 11:3-4 apostle Paul wrote: "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches ANOTHER Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME Jesus, the SAME spirit and the SAME gospel that the apostles preached.

In Galatians 1:6-8, apostle Paul wrote: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME gospel that Christ and the apostles preached.

ME:

It's not DIFFERENT INCquisitor, but is exactly what apostle Paul says. As I have explained, the apostles were the ones sent by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His witnesses and preach to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures speak of as being sent to preach, but the apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

Let me pick up my point from the scriptures "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

This is a clear reminder and warning of Paul to the Christians in Galatia. That the gospel that they have preached to them in the beginning is the gospel, the true gospel I may say. He greatly emphasizes this to the point of saying that if anyone, even they (he and the other apostles) or even an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel other than what they have preached to them then, Paul said "let him be accursed". Now, what is significant about this? As I have pointed out, we should always go back to scriptures when somebody preaches to you and claims that what they are preaching is the gospel of Christ. For, in the scriptures, we can find the gospel that the apostles preached that they were commissioned and sent to preach. In short, we don't get to readily and easily believe what others preach, but rather, go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach if it is in keeping with the gospel that the apostles preached, and believe what is there in scriptures, and not be deceived because of our lack of diligence.

INCQUISITOR:

Let me show you the FOLLY of what you are saying.

You have read 1 Cor. 8:6 where it reads, "yet for us there is ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

How come a lot of so-called Christians believe that Jesus Christ is ALSO God and for them there are TWO Lords - NOT one?

ME:

There is no folly to show in what I'm saying INCquisitor.

Regarding your question on 1 Cor.8:6, obviously you have a problem with that. God is my Lord. And Jesus Christ is my Lord. Why do you have a problem with that? The way I see it, it's because God is not your Lord. Anyway, this is not the issue in this thread.

INCQUISITOR:

Obviously, you don't listen to what God says in scriptures. And this is the folly of your OPINION that it is enough to read scriptures to have "faith by hearing the apostles through scriptures."

ME:

Well, if there are no other scriptures other than 1 Cor. 8:6, you may be right. But, that is not the case. And this is what is obvious, your scriptures is different from the Holy scriptures I read.

Perhaps, you can now go back to the issue under this thread.

INCQUISITOR:

You say: "In short, we don't get to readily and easily believe what others preach, but rather, go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach if it is in keeping with the gospel that the apostles preached, and believe what is there in scriptures, and not be deceived because of our lack of diligence."

Aren't you contradicting yourself? 1 Cor. 8:6 is scripture. It's what apostle Paul preached.

As you correctly stated, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." This can rightly be applied to the one who taught you the FALSE doctrine that "God is your Lord and Jesus Christ is ALSO your Lord," CONTRARY to what apostle Paul preached as written in 1 Cor. 8:6.

Me:

And as I said we can hear God through His words. And His words are written, in scriptures.

And I am not contradicting myself. While Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.", Peter said in 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:", and Jude said in Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is the same thing with the truth that Jesus is the Savior and God is the Savior. And this you don't believe, even while scriptures testify to this.

Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;", and Peter says in 2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:", and Jude says in Jude 1:25 "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Jesus is Lord. God is Lord.
Jesus is the Savior. God is the Savior.

INCQUISITOR:

If we take every scripture as TRUE without comparing them with other scriptures as the Holy Spirit teaches in 1 Cor. 2:13 (NKJV), we would have the apostles CONTRADICTING each other or apostles CONTRADICTING even Jesus Christ, their "ONLY LORD and Master" (Jude 1:4 TEV).

In the Ang Biblia version of Mt. 23:10, Jesus said, "Ni huwag kayong patawag na mga panginoon; sapagka't IISA and inyong panginoon, samakatuwid baga'y, ANG CRISTO (Do not be called 'Lords' for ONE is your 'Lord', the Christ)."

In 1 Cor. 8:6, apostle Paul was teaching the early Corinthian Christians the lesson that Jesus Christ taught his disciples in Mt. 23:10, that Christ is their ONLY ONE 'Lord.'

On the other hand, what apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 about God being Lord, is a statement - NOT a teaching. In fact, the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and the United Bible Societies' third edition of 1 Peter 3:15 reads, "sanctify Christ as Lord."

The same twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and the United Bible Societies' third edition of Jude1:4 omits God. Hence, the Today's English Version of Jude 1:4 also reads as follows: "For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our ONLY Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received."

Me:

You said "On the other hand, what apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 about God being Lord, is a statement - NOT a teaching."

A statement may not be a teaching. But that has nothing to do with a statement being true. And the said statements of Jude and Peter testifies who is God to them, that is, Lord God and their Savior.

If you go to 1 Cor. 2:13 and take what Paul said, and you take that which Paul taught that only Christ is Lord and that God is not, as true, then you must have to interpret all other scriptures such as that of Peter and Jude to not go against it, right? But that is the right way to take God's equally true words in scriptures. We must take them as to what they say.

To Peter and Jude, God is Lord.
God is Lord even in the days of old, to the prophets and patriarchs.

If your understanding of scriptures denies this truth, then there is the problem with you.

I take all of God's words in scriptures as equally true and has no contradiction. And so, taking Paul's statement that there is only one Lord, and that to be Jesus Christ, only tells me who Jesus Christ is, for, from the beginning, the only Lord God is God, who is known to be the only Lord God even in ancient times and by the prophets and patriarchs.

INCQUISITOR:

If what Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 - that God is Lord - is a teaching, then we would have two apostles teaching two different doctrines. You say you believe BOTH 1 Cor. 8:6 and 1 Peter 3:15 to be true. That's your call. You can believe whatever you want to believe. It won't change the way I divide the word of truth.

Heb. 1:1-2 tells us that God spoke separately to our fathers by the prophets and to us in these last days by His son. God commanded our fathers by the prophets to call Him 'Lord.' God has spoken to us in these last days by His son Jesus, who taught his disciples not to be called 'Lord,' for ONE is their 'Lord,' the Christ (Mt. 23:10).

Me:

Yes I say BOTH 1 Cor. 8:6 and 1 Peter 3:15 are true. And why not?

As I have pointed out, to Peter and Jude, God is Lord. And that God is Lord even in the days of old, to the prophets and patriarchs. If God is Lord yesterday, why would God not be Lord today and tomorrow? And may I ask, what does it mean to you when one says God is ones' Lord?

And don't tell me that you are trashing away all of the NT scriptures which refers to God as Lord (kurios). Your Bible would surely grow much thinner by then.

INCQUISITOR:

As far as I am concerned, I believe what apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 8:6 more than what apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 about God being his Lord because what apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 8:6 conforms with what Jesus taught his disciples in Mt. 23:10 (Ang Biblia). Perhaps apostle Peter, being a Jew, wrote 'Lord God' by force of habit, or translators did not want to believe what Jesus taught and what apostle Paul wrote and ADDED 'Lord' before 'God' when they translated 1 Peter 3:15.

I call God my Father just as Jesus calls God his Father (John 20:17). God's command to our fathers to call Him 'Lord' does not apply to me. I'm a Christian. Thus, I follow what Christ teaches.

Me:

Well you can think all you want about Peter and Jude. No one denies you that. But, if you'll be kind and brave enough, could you please answer the very simple and basic questions I asked:

If God is Lord yesterday, why would God not be Lord today and tomorrow? And may I ask, what does it mean to you when one says God is ones' Lord?

I too call God, "Abba,Father". I'm a Christian too, because I believe and follow Christ, because I believe and follow God. I call Him Father not because it was commanded of me, but because I have received from Him, that which He has given me, the Spirit of adoption by whom I cry out, “Abba, Father.”

You said "God's command to our fathers to call Him 'Lord' does not apply to me."

First, can you show in scriptures where we can learn that God commanded our fathers to call Him 'Lord'?

Second,if God did commanded them to call Him 'Lord', for what reason is that? And how is God, Lord over them?

Also, in the NT times, what can you understand as to the matter of scriptures, when referring to God, refers to him as "kurios"?
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Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 INCQUISITOR:

Most MISINTERPRET this verse to mean that "faith is the gift from God." Apostle Paul writes, "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is the "thing HOPED for" and the kingdom of God is the "thing unseen" for which "faith is the substance and evidence (Heb. 11:1) respectively.

ME:

Regarding the "thing hoped for" and the "thing unseen", read my discussion about this at the top segment of this post.

With regards to Ephesians 2:8-9, let's see here the correct interpretation by going through the verse:

"For by grace you have been saved". This phrase tells of the Christian that he have been saved. And how? By grace, Paul says.

What does Paul mean in saying that the Christian have been saved "by grace"? We get to understand that in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

INCQUISITOR:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

These verses do not tell us that "faith comes from God."

What "grace" means is that because of God's love for the world, He SENT His son into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:16-17).

Of course, salvation is not by ourselves nor of works. It is a result of faith.

Apostle Paul writes, "For whoever CALLS on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him whom they have NOT believed? And how shall they believe in him whom they have NOT heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace. Who bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report? So then FAITH comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:16-17).

Thus, faith is the result of HEARING the gospel from a PREACHER SENT from God, BEIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel SAYS and INSTRUCTS one to do.

ME:

Yes Ephesians 2:8-9 does speak about the truth that faith comes from God. And I have explained to you clearly what the passage tells us in my post above.

You said "What "grace" means is that because of God's love for the world, He SENT His son into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:16-17)."

That is not what grace means INCquisitor. That is the grace of God. Here's a verse that can help you understand what grace means:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In the Greek, the word translated "grace" is "charis" which means favor, kindness. Grace is as a gift or blessing.

And perhaps now you can better understand the scriptures "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, men did not have to work or do anything for God to SEND His son into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17). God SENT His son out of His love for us. But it is through "faith in Jesus" that we are saved. This is what Paul meant when he said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Apostle Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:23).

ME:

The verse says "For by grace"... Now this means, not by works. If not by works, what then? As I have pointed out,we get to understand "For by grace", in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

You said "But it is through "faith in Jesus" that we are saved". It's good that you say that. Do you mean by that, that you agree, that it is not of yourself and not through works that we are saved, as Eph.2:8-9 says?

INCQUISITOR:

It's true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says. However, this is where we should take other scriptures into consideration.

What does "faith in Jesus" mean or entail? In John 8:31-32, Jesus said to the Jews who "believed him", If you ABIDE in my word, you are MY disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." What does ABIDE in the word of Jesus mean? Doesn't that mean "obeying what Jesus COMMANDS you to do?" Isn't that "work?"

In Matt. 7:21, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the WILL of my Father in heaven." Is DOING the WILL of the Father NOT "work?"

In James 2:14 and 20, apostle James wrote: "What does it profit my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? But do you want to know O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

The works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9 is definitely different from the "works" mentioned in Matt. 7:21 that is needed for salvation.

Me:

It's good that you take as true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says.

Now, whatever you say then with regards this truth will not get out of line if you keep in mind Eph. 2:8-9 which says "For BY GRACE you have been SAVED through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God, 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. Forgetting that or setting aside the truth that one is SAVED through faith, and NOT OF WORKS, in considering other scriptures which speaks of how one is saved, almost always leads one to the error of being saved through faith and works, making one to able to boast of being saved, not only by having faith in Christ, but by his works.

INCQUISITOR:

Sticking to Eph. 2:8-9 without regards to Matt. 7:21 and James 2:14 is the fatal error of Christian-professing religions today. How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches? How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?

Sadly, Christian-professing religions are IGNORANT of the "works" that make "faith perfect" in order to benefit from God's "saving grace through faith in Jesus."

Me:

You just said "It's true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says."

That statement of yours is clear. The matter is if you meant what it says.

You asked:

"How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches? How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?"

Your questions here just shows that you didn't mean what your statement above says or really do not understand Eph.:8-9.

INCQUISITOR:

You must be ignorant of what "faith in Jesus" entails. While it is true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says. we cannot just set aside Mt. 7:21 and James 2:14 simply because we don't know the "will of the Father" necessary to be DONE to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I believe Eph. 2:8-9 and understand what it is telling us. As I said earlier, the works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9 is definitely different from the "works" mentioned in Matt. 7:21 that is needed for salvation. Besides, Eph. 2:8-9 CANNOT prevail over the words of Jesus written in Matthew 7:21.

Any "work" that people do to earn salvation, like religiously going to church, giving alms to the poor, giving monetary offerings, observing religious holidays, nor eating blood, etc. which are NOT the "WILL of the Father" are "works that one can boast of." These are the works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9.

The "work" mentioned in Mt. 7:21 is specific. One MUST "DO the WILL of the Father" to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Once again, I ask: "How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches? How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?"

Me:

I am not setting aside Mt. 7:21 and James 2:14 nor a single scripture, unlike you who have even trashed away many scriptures.

You said:

<<the works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9 is definitely different from the "works" mentioned in Matt. 7:21 that is needed for salvation.>>

Clearly, Eph.2:8-9 does not exclude any work by saying "not of works". Anyway, you say that Matt. 7:21 speaks of works needed for salvation, even while no works is mentioned really. What works are you then talking about,for the sake of argument? You even said "The "work" mentioned in Mt. 7:21 is specific. One MUST "DO the WILL of the Father" to enter the kingdom of heaven". What work is that?

You asked: "How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches?

Believe and have faith in His Son Jesus Christ. That is the will of the Father.

You asked: "How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?"

I think that when one does not believe any scriptures, he really do not have faith in God, for he rejects and does not believe the word of God.

Now, regarding James 2:14, you might like to read v.18 to see the point of James there.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

INCQUISITOR:

You say the will of the Father is to "believe and have faith in Jesus."

You say you "believe and have faith in Jesus." What "works" can you show to make your faith in Jesus perfect, just as Abraham's faith was made perfect by his works (James 2:21-22)? Don't you believe God's word which says, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20)?

Me:

I believe all of God's words including James 2:20.

Now, you asked "" What "works" can you show to make your faith in Jesus perfect, just as Abraham's faith was made perfect by his works (James 2:21-22)?". Such question comes about when one does not get the point of what James is saying in v.18.

James 2:18, " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works".

Considering v.18, James'point is that the faith of one is SHOWN or SEEN by works. And you will understand what he said in the next verse, "19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble". The devils too can be said to have faith, same as anyone who believe that there is one God, such as the Muslims and the Christians. Now, look at the devil's works. What faith do you see? So, you see, James' real focus here is about faith. He speaks of works, not so much that it was what he was talking about, but because it is by works that faith is SHOWN and is SEEN.

Of the case James mentioned of Abraham, v. 22 says " Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Clearly, the verse tells us how faith have moved Abraham to act and do as he had. And that by such doing and working, his faith was made perfect, meaning, is made complete or is consummated, having reached its end aim and accomplish its goal.

Verse 23 says "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." Clearly, all that James said of the case of Abraham, it was Abraham's faith that was imputed unto him for righteousness, not anything else.

The matter with regards to the work that Abraham did here is that, though even while he believe in God, should Abraham have not acted on his faith or have done what is contrary to it, such faith is said to be dead. For a faith that does not move one to act or does not produce works, is dead.
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Now, Paul said "it is the gift of God". What is the "it" referring to? From the verse, it can easily be understood that the "it" refers to the Christian's salvation ("have been saved"). It does not refer to faith, for it is not what is in view in the verse, rather, the salvation of the Christian is what is in view. So, what Paul is saying in the verse, is that, salvation is God's gift to the Christian. Now, we know that salvation means eternal life. We can see this in the statement of Paul, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.".

Thank you for commenting on Ephesians 2:8-9. It opened the door for me to show you that salvation is a gift. Do you know what that means?

INCQUISITOR:

Of course I have known all along that salvation or eternal life - NOT faith - is the gift of God. I also know that we can only receive this gift of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus or by HEARING the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God, BELIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel says or INSTRUCTS us to do.

In case you have not heard it before, "the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks. FOR IN IT, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Therefore, it is important to test whether the gospel that one is hearing, believing and obeying is the true gospel of Christ. The only way of knowing whether the gospel one is hearing is the true gospel of Christ is if it REVEALS the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

ME:

There is a lot of difference between having faith in Jesus Christ and that of the matter of hearing the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God. And the former is where one get to receive eternal life. So, your statement "I also know that we can only receive this gift of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus OR by HEARING the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God, BELIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel says or INSTRUCTS us to do", is faulty.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, a preacher SENT from God preaches the gospel of Christ. Hence, hearing from a preacher SENT from God is tantamount to hearing the gospel of Christ. As Christ told his disciples long ago, "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who Sent ME" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

Luke 10:16 refers to no other but to those whom Jesus have sent in those times. It does not include any of those now who claims to be sent by Jesus or by God.

Now, there are plenty in these days who claims to be sent from God, and that they claim to be the only ones sent and no other. And one say to the other, that he is a false messenger, and so too will the other say to the other. As each one denies the other, one need not have to really choose between them who is true or not. For we can go to those in scriptures spoken to be sent by Jesus to preach the gospel, that is, His apostles. What they have preached, God have inspired to be written in scriptures. So, if one reads in scriptures what they preached, they could be sure that they are hearing the true gospel.

INCQUISITOR:

What you say is easier said than done. Case in point: Apostles Peter (Acts 3:15) and Paul (Rom. 10:9) preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. FALSE preachers preach that Jesus RAISED himself from the dead.

Apostle Paul preached that Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Peter preached that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22). Jesus himself preached that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true od (John 17:3). FALSE preaches preach that Jesus is ALSO God.

Only true DISCIPLES of Christ can preach the TRUE gospel of Christ.

Me:

There were many disciples of Christ when He came and went teaching when He was on earth. But there were only twelve that the Lord have chosen.

John 6
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus UNTO THE TWELVE, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, HAVE I NOT CHOSEN YOU TWELVE, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Of the twelve, here's what Jesus revealed:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

And it came to pass, that Judas betrayed and not before long, Judas killed himself. So of the twelve, there were left 11.

To the eleven, Jesus commanded them:

Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, it came to pass that the eleven have chosen another one to be an apostle, to take the place of Judas Iscariot:

Acts 1:24-26
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Now, it came to pass that Jesus have chosen another to be His apostle to the Gentiles, that is Saul (Paul). Refer to Acts 9.

Here's what Paul testifies:

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

The "they" in the verse refers to the other apostles.

Now, after these chosen apostles, were there any other men chosen by God or by the Lord Jesus Christ, to the same work and ministry?

As I have explained, the apostles were the ones sent by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His witnesses and preach to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures speak of as being sent to preach, but the apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Jesus Christ to be His apostles and preach the gospel. For the scriptures have said and warned "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

Now, in the scriptures, we can find the gospel that the apostles preached of which they were commissioned and were sent out to preach. In short, we go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach and so learn of the gospel of Christ and believe it.

INCQUISITOR:

As I said, what you say is easier said than done. Again, I say, apostles Peter (Acts 3:15) and Paul (Rom. 10:9) preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. These are scriptures. Yet, FALSE preachers preach that Jesus RAISED himself from the dead. These FALSE preachers REFUSE to listen to apostles Peter and Paul!

Apostle Paul preached that Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Peter preached that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22). Jesus himself preached that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). These are also scriptures which anyone can read. Yet, FALSE preaches preach that Jesus is ALSO God. These FALSE preachers also REFUSE to listen to Jesus!

These FALSE preachers say they preach the true gospel of Christ. How can they when they preach other gospels that apostles Paul and Peter and even Jesus have preached? As apostle Paul wrote, let these FALSE preachers be accursed!

Again, I say, ONLY true DISCIPLES of Christ can preach the TRUE gospel of Christ.

Me:

And again I will refer you back to my previous post above and try to see the point I was making and give it some thought.

INCQUISITOR:

The proliferation of FALSE teachers of religions prove that your point of view is FALSE. If you REFUSE to change your point of view, it does not make any difference to me.

Me:

Same here. I'll go with the truth of scriptures. And I would not dare exchange what truth scriptures says for any teachings of any one who claims to have the truth, even one who claims to be a chosen and commissioned disciple of Christ today, nor even an angel, for scriptures tells me "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed".

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul wrote Gal. 1:8 and said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed". He also wrote 1 Cor. 8:6 where he taught that for him and Christ's disciples, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father, and ONLY ONE Lord Jesus Christ..." Therefore, let those FALSE teachers who teach any other gospel (message) than that which apostle preached in 1 Cor. 8:6 be ACCURSED.

Me:

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH."

And to all who think to be a commissioned disciple of Christ today, and claim to be sent and chosen like the apostles of Christ, including Paul, and preach what they think and claim they are, and claims that only they, have the truth and correct understanding of scriptures, may God have mercy on them.
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With regards to your other post here, thanks, but I have read and heard that passage long time ago. And it reminds me, I asked you some time ago on the passage you cited, what does "faith to faith" means? If my memory serves me right, you said you don't know. I wonder then how you could understand the passage and cite it, when you don't know what it means.

INCQUISITOR:

I wrote:

"In case you have not heard it before, "the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks. FOR IN IT, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Therefore, it is important to test whether the gospel that one is hearing, believing and obeying is the true gospel of Christ. The only way of knowing whether the gospel one is hearing is the true gospel of Christ is if it REVEALS the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God."

You ask, "what does "faith to faith" mean?

Apostle Paul says, "for in it (the gospel of Christ}, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is REVEALED from faith to faith."

I believe that this is a way to test the authenticity of whoever claims to be a preacher sent from God. The gospel of Christ that one preaches must REVEAL the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God. Otherwise, the gospel that one preaches is FALSE.

ME:

Sorry, but I still don't really get what "faith to faith" means for you. Are you saying that "faith" there refers to other faith, as in, other belief?

INCQUISITOR:

There is only one righteousness of God that is revealed by the true gospel of Christ. It is by this revelation of the gospel of Christ that the authenticity of the gospel being preached is tested.

Me:

As the scriptures says, that in the gospel of Christ, is the righteousness of God. And the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

If you don't get to see there what the righteousness of God is, I pray to God to give you understanding.

INCQUISITOR:

Does the gospel you preach reveal the righteousness of God? I dare say no.

Apostle Paul wrote: "For He made him who knew no sin t be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Tell us, what is the "righteousness of God" that apostle Paul was talking about? How does one become the "righteousness of God" in Christ?

Me:

Yes, for what I spread is what is preached by the chosen apostles in scriptures.

"... we might become the righteousness of God in him" is what the verse says. Even that I guess you don't seem to understand.

As I said, the scriptures says, that in the gospel of Christ, is the righteousness of God. And the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD is REVEALED from FAITH TO FAITH:

AS IT IS WRITTEN, THE JUST SHALL LIVE by FAITH.

What is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD?

It is what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH!

Read what is said in scriptures what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH, which will lead to what is written: THE JUST SHALL LIVE by FAITH

INCQUISITOR:

You didn't tell me what the "righteousness of God" is that YOUR gospel reveals. You simply said, "As I said, the scriptures says, that in the gospel of Christ, is the righteousness of God. And the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

If I were your Bible student, what did you teach me as the "righteousness of God" that is revealed from faith to faith? Nothing? Therefore, the gospel you preach is NOT the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes what you preach.

Scripture says, "for in it (the gospel), the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" (Rom. 1:17). Your gospel MUST reveal to your Bible students what the righteousness of God is. Be honest to yourself and to your Bible students and tell them that you are IGNORANT of what the "righteousness of God" is.

Me:

And as I said, the gospel I share and spread is what is preached by the chosen apostles in scriptures.

Now haven't I given you the Bible to tell you about the righteousness of God? I said "It is what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH! Read what is said in scriptures what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH, which will lead to what is written: THE JUST SHALL LIVE by FAITH".

Let me quote some scriptures that reveals the righteousness of God from FAITH TO FAITH.

Hebrews 11:

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul wrote that "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become God's righteousness in him (in Christ)" (2 Cor. 5:21).

You say these scriptures reveal the "righteousness of God." What is the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal? How can we become the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal?

Me:

What is the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal?

Apparently you still can't see the righteousness of God in the scriptures I have given you. That's sad. Only God can open the eyes of one who can't see.

How can we become the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal?

I cited the above scriptures not to show you HOW we can BECOME the "righteousness of God", but to tell how the righteousness of God is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH.

You said "Apostle Paul wrote that "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become God's righteousness in him (in Christ)" (2 Cor. 5:21)."

"..that we might become God's righteousness in Christ". Becoming God's righteousness is different from what the righteousness of God is. Anyway, let me comment on the matter of how we might become God's righteousness in Christ. The verse clearly said "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us". This is how we might become God's righteousness in Christ. It is good and important to note that it is God who acted here, not anyone else. So, our becoming God's righteousness in Christ is the work of God, not ours. And interestingly, the verse clearly speaks of Christ this way, "him who knew no sin". There is then no doubt that Jesus is without sin and have committed no sin, just like a spotless sacrificial lamb that is offered for the atonement of sins in relation to the law of Moses.

Now, we know that God had made this of His Son Jesus Christ on His own will and because of His love for us. But we know that God hates sin and He is holy. So, if He reconciles us to Himself, we must be cleansed from sin. Another matter is that man is weak, because of the flesh, so that man is easily tempted in falling into sin. And so He had done this, for only by the sacrifice of Christ, as being the lamb of God, by being sin for us, as payment for the penalty of sin, can man be cleansed of his sins. This then made it possible for man to be reconciled to God. How about the matter of the weakness of the flesh? If we continue to be sinners and be the same creature we were, after having been cleansed from sin, what would that make of God? Certainly, we won't become the righteousness of God. So, this as well was taken cared of by God in Christ, so that we might become God's righteousness in him. For if any man be in Christ, God have made him a new creature, as having been born again, and having given him His Spirit that gives him the power to overcome sin. As such, by all of this that God have done in Christ, is how we might become the righteousness of God in Christ.

 
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  1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 22, 2017, 4:08 PM
    1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 23, 2017, 3:28 AM
      1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 23, 2017, 2:39 PM
        1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 24, 2017, 4:36 AM
          1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 30, 2017, 10:35 AM
            1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 3, 2017, 5:50 AM
              1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on May 7, 2017, 10:40 AM
                1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 20, 2017, 3:50 AM
     
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