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Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou.

May 3 2017 at 5:50 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou.

 
Now, faith COMES, it says. Here are some questions:

1. Where do you think it comes from?
2. Does it come from you, from someone else, or from God?
3. If you say faith comes from you, can you expound on that?
4. If you say faith comes from someone else, can you expound on that?
5. If you say faith comes from God, can you expound on that?

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of the word "come" is different from mine. By taking the verse as a whole, I understand the word "come" to mean that faith results from HEARING the word of God.

Apostle Paul makes this clear when he said, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent" (Rom. 10:13-15)?

So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT.

God SENT Jesus into the world that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16; c.f. John 8:42; 17:3).

Jesus told his disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples into all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19). "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

Faith cometh by hearing. It means that, for one to have faith, he must hear. And what is there to hear, except the words coming from someone. And if we are talking of faith in God, so we are referring to hearing the words of God. And so, then we must have to hear the words of God, not the words of anybody else. By such, faith in God can come to the hearer. And if the hearer believes God's words, then his hearing the words of God have resulted then to the hearer having faith, faith in God.

You said "So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT."

The Father have sent the Son to the world, and in time, the Son sent the HS to His apostles to dwell in them and be their paracletos, to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that Jesus said to them, and will testify of Him. The apostles were sent by Jesus to be His witnesses and preach these to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

INCQUISITOR:

It is not enough to simply read the scriptures by yourself in order to understand what the scripture says. A man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury (Acts 8:27), was reading Isaiah the prophet (Acts 8:28), when Philip ran to him and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" (Acts 8:30). And the eunuch said, "How can I, unless someone guides me? And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him" (Acts 8:31).

A majority of all self-professing Christians all claim to have read John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God. How come these people believe that Jesus is ALSO God?

These self-professing Christians have all read Romans 10:9 where apostle Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God RAISED Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." How come these self-professing Christians INSIST that Jesus raised HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD?

Therefore, WHAT YOU SAY IS false.

ME:

You mentioned of the Eunuch, who said "How can I, unless someone guides me?". And it was Philip, who guided him. Now, you must not forget that the Spirit was with Philip. And it is the HS whom Jesus sent to His apostles to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that He said to them, and these things were written in scriptures. It is them who were commissioned by Jesus to preach. And so we see Philip preaching to the Eunuch (it is wise to note what Philip preached to the Eunuch). But then, the apostles are all now dead and there were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of, as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. So, where can we hear the preaching of the apostles? That's right, in scriptures. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard them preached in their days, including that of Philip. Reading or hearing somebody reading scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach. So that, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, through scriptures, God's words.

INCQUISITOR:

You didn't address my questions.

I wrote: " A majority of all self-professing Christians all claim to have read John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God. How come these people believe that Jesus is ALSO God?

These self-professing Christians have all read Romans 10:9 where apostle Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God RAISED Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." How come these self-professing Christians INSIST that Jesus raised HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD?

Therefore, it is FALSE to assume that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach." What one hears are NOT the TRUE words of God but words of God that are ALTERED to suit a preacher's own man-made doctrines.

ME:

Oh, sorry about that.

I really can't tell INCquisitor in their case. Perhaps, you can ask them why.

On my part, I read John 8:40 and John 17:3, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find these verses neither saying that Jesus is not God, nor saying that Jesus is God, nor saying that Jesus is ALSO God.

I also read Romans 10:9, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find this verse saying that Jesus did not raised himself from the dead. But I have read John 2:19-22 where John says:

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

And have read also John 10:18 where John says:

10 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Now, these scriptures, and the words of Jesus himself, that is, "in three days I will raise it up", and "I have power to take it again", clearly tells me that Jesus have the power to resurrect himself and have indeed risen from the dead. For when He had risen from the dead, scriptures says "His disciples remembered that He had said this to them.", that is, "I will raise it up.”

Why people like you don't see that or perhaps don't accept that, makes me sad for them.

You said "Therefore, it is FALSE to assume that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach." What one hears are NOT the TRUE words of God but words of God that are ALTERED to suit a preacher's own man-made doctrines."

How you consider this statement "READING or hearing somebody READING the scriptures, is hearing the apostles preach" is FALSE, just tells me that you don't believe that what one can read in scriptures, the NT in particular" is not what the apostles preached. And you even say that what one hears (implied to be hearing the READING of scriptures by somebody) are not true words of God. Makes me feel sorry for you.

INCQUISITOR:

Your statement that "reading or hearing somebody reading the scripture, is hearing the apostles preach" is proven FALSE by your own admission, to wit: "On my part, I read John 8:40 and John 17:3, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find these verses neither saying that Jesus is not God, nor saying that Jesus is God, nor saying that Jesus is ALSO God.

I also read Romans 10:9, though not in isolation from the rest of scriptures, as some does, and I don't find this verse saying that Jesus did not raised himself from the dead. But I have read John 2:19-22 where John says:

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

In Romans 10:9, apostle preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. In Acts 3:15, apostle Peter preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. These are scriptures where we HEAR apostles Paul and Peter preach that God RAISED Jesus from the dead.

Compare these scriptures with John 2:19-22 where apostle John preached what Jesus said. Did Jesus EXPLICITLY say that he will RAISE HIMSELF from the dead? No! You are simply THINKING BEYOND what apostle John wrote. Your imagination makes apostles Peter and Paul LIARS. You are NOT listening to apostles Peter and Paul. You are listening to whoever you HEARD reading from the scriptures.

Me:

John 2:19-22
19 JESUS answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and THE WORD WHICH JESUS HAD SAID.

John 10:18 where JESUS says:
10 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

I thought you believe every word that Jesus said.

INCQUISITOR:

I also believe John 2:10-22 and John 10:18 but NOT in the way you understand these verses that CONTRADICTS what apostles Peter and Paul wrote in Acts 3:15 and Rom. 10:9.

Again, I ask you, did Jesus EXPLICITLY say in these verses that he will RAISE HIMSELF from the dead? You REFUSE to answer my question because you ARE stuck with your FALSE understanding of John 2:19-22 and Jon 10:18 that Jesus was saying he WILL RAISE HIMSELF from the dead.

Me:

There is contradiction between John 2:10-22 and John 10:18 with Rom. 10:9, and that, with regards your belief. As with mine, there is none.

I take all of God's words in scriptures as equally true and has no contradiction. And so, taking Rom. 10:9, John 2:19-22 and John 10:18, all then must be true. If your understanding of scriptures denies these truths, then there is the problem with you.

In John 10:18, Jesus said "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. THIS COMMAND I have received from My Father.”. And I believe that, don't you? Now, with regards the Father's commandments to Jesus, Jesus said in John 15:10, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.". So, there is no doubt that Jesus followed the Father's commandment to him in John 10:18. And there is nothing clearer than what is written in John 2:19-22 with regards this matter.

INCQUISITOR:

You say that, on the basis of your understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:18, Jesus raised HIMSELF from the dead. You say your belief does not contradict what apostles Peter and Paul wrote (that God raised Jesus from the dead- Acts 3:15; Rom. 10:9) because your understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:18 makes Jesus God in your mind.

To justify your FALSE understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:8, you conveniently set aside the words of Jesus written in John 8:40 where he says that he is a MAN and in John 17:3 where he tells the Father that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God.

While it is true that John 2:19-22, John 10:18, Acts 3:15 and Rom. 10:9, are ALL true, and I believe that too, YOUR understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:18 - that Jesus RAISED himself from the dead - is FALSE, Your understanding of these verses CONTRADICTS the word of God written in John 8:40, John 17:3, Acts 3:15 and Rom. 10:9.

Me:

I'm not at all posting to justify anything INCquisitor. And I neither set aside the words of Jesus written in John 8:40 nor any scripture for that matter, unlike you who have trashed pretty much every scripture that does not go with your understanding of scriptures. For I do believe that Jesus is a man. But you just refuse to believe that I do and insist that I really don't for you find that illogical since I believe He is God who became flesh, taking the form of a man. I am not forcing you to believe it. I'm just telling you that this is what the scriptures tells me.

INCQUISITOR:

You say you believe that Jesus is God who became flesh, taking the form of a man, because you say this is what the scriptures tell you. That's the consequence of NOT having faith in what Jesus says.

You say you believe that Jesus is a MAN but you set aside and ignore John 17:3 where Jesus says to the Father, "...that they may know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT."

As a result of ignoring and setting aside John 17:3, you FAILED to perceive the TWO truths that are revealed by Jesus in John 17:3. First, you FAILED to perceive the truth that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God. This means that NOBODY else is a TRUE God but the Father. Second, you FAILED to perceive the truth that Jesus was SENT by the Father who is the ONLY TRUE God. This means that Jesus is NOT a "God" who BECAME flesh.

Me:

Yes I believe that Jesus is God who became flesh, taking the form of a man, because this is what the scriptures tells me. That's the consequence of listening and hearing God's words in scriptures and not in any man, not even in my own understanding. I rely in God's words for the truth and submit myself to it. Wrong understanding of scriptures comes by when out of pride, one begins to bring his own understanding and his confidence in his own reasoning and limited human abilities, deceiving himself into thinking that he can understand the spiritual things of God by his natural senses and abilities.

INCQUISITOR:

There is no scripture that says "Jesus is God who became flesh." That's your wrong understanding of John 1:14 which says, "And the word became flesh." Your wrong understanding of John 1:14 comes by your bringing your own understanding and confidence in your own reasoning and limited human abilities, thereby deceiving yourself into thinking that you can understand spiritual things of God by your natural senses and abilities.

The "word" that became flesh is God's "word" concerning His "plan" to send His only begotten son into the world. The phrase, "And he word became flesh" is John's way of saying that God's "plan" was fulfilled with the birth of Jesus.

The rest of John 1:14 speaks of the "flesh" or Jesus who "dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Your wrong understanding of John 1:14 CONTRADICTS John 3:17 and John 17:3 where Jesus says that God the Father SENT him into the world. It runs against reason that God, the Father would SEND God, the son into the world, because the Bible teaches that there is ONLY ONNE God - NOT more than one God.

Me:

<<The "word" that became flesh is God's "word" concerning His "plan" to send His only begotten son into the world. The phrase, "And he word became flesh" is John's way of saying that God's "plan" was fulfilled with the birth of Jesus.>>

That's an erroneous understanding of John 1:14.

Apostle John testifies of the Word:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Apostle John testifies of the light, referring to the Word he is testifying about:
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Apostle John continues to testifies of the Word:
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

I don't how and why it is not clear to you that apostle John is not talking about a plan but of a person. And of this person, is what apostle John testifies about in the book of John. The plan of God that you are talking about, the plan of sending a Messiah, is spoken and testified in the law and the prophets.

INCQUISITOR:

Your thinking shows that the Spirit of God has not taught you HOW to "rightly divide the truth." Apostle Paul wrote, "Be diligent to present himself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the truth of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness" (2 Tim. 2:15).

The Bible was not written the way newspapers, magazines and books are written. The next verse does not necessarily refer to the first verse.

For example, John 1:2-5 do not refer to John 1:1. John 1:1 refers to the "word" of God which was in the beginning WITH God and WAS God. This refers to the "word" or "plan" of God to SEND Christ into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17). Apostle Peter wrote about Christ as the "word" or "plan" of God, thus: "He indeed was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:20).

Hence, the "word" of God was WITH God in the beginning or before the foundation of the world. Why was the "word" God? Because the "word" of God has the power of God - that is, the "word" is always true and will always be fulfilled.

What follows John 1:1 should be John 1:14 to let us know what happened to this "word" or "plan" of God. John 1:14 says, "And the word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

This is John's way of telling us that the "plan" of God was fulfilled. Hence, it is clear that the "word" BECAME flesh, and it is the "flesh" into whom the "word became" that dwelt among us.

What follows are verses 2-5 which refer to Jesus or the "flesh" into whom the word became.

Me:

I could as well say and apply this to you INCquisitor:

Your thinking shows that the Spirit of God has not taught you HOW to rightly divide the truth." Apostle Paul wrote, "Be diligent to present himself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the truth of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness" (2 Tim. 2:15)."

And that is your first line of excuse. And you say that to me when what I posted is basically scriptures. All that I said in there is a mere paragraph telling you that apostle John is not talking about a plan but of a person. And the plan of God that you are talking about, the plan of sending a Messiah, is spoken and testified in the law and the prophets. Compare that to what you are saying in your post.

INCQUISITOR:

What you are saying is what FALSE teachers do. They post scriptures to make it appear that what they are saying are Biblical. However, what they do is make their own interpretation and make it appear that this is what the Bible is teaching.

Me:

You are entitled to your own opinion, as I am too.
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You second line of excuse is: The Bible was not written the way newspapers, magazines and books are written. I don't see how those who read this exchange get anything out of this.

INCQUISITOR:

People have been fooled for a very long time into believing that John 1:2-5 refers to the "word" in John 1:1. Where in the world did you learn that "word" can be addressed as a "he?" Now, I'm definitely certain that rabid fanaticism makes people dumb!

Me:

I am sure you don't know.

And you don't know too I'm sure, where I learned that "wisdom" can be addressed as a "she".
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As I have shown and said, I don't how and why it is not clear to you that apostle John is not talking about a plan but of a person. Oh I almost forgot, this is a doctrine of FYM, the angel of the INC.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, it is clear to me that John was talking about the "word" or "plan" of God in John 1:1 and John 1:14. However, after the "word" or "plan" of God BECAME a man, John began talking about the MAN or person into whom the "word" became.

Me:

And that's not the teaching of John, but the teaching of FYM, who was once your teacher. Didn't you say he is a false teacher?
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You say "John 1:2-5 do not refer to John 1:1. John 1:1 refers to the "word" of God which was in the beginning WITH God and WAS God. This refers to the "word" or "plan" of God to SEND Christ into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17)".

Clearly, you are telling people what you think the "word" is, instead of what John tells us and testifies of the "word" in the next verses. And further still, you want people to believe you that John 1:2-5 do not refer to John 1:1. Now, you consider yourself to be in authority to say what scriptures comes after and next to a verse. Seems like you are acting like one who knows the original scriptures. It takes a lot of pride to do that. So, where do you say is the right place of John 1:2-5 in this writing of John?


INCQUISITOR:

You are wrong in saying that John "testifies of the "word" in the verses following John 1:1. The only verse that further testifies about the "word" is John 1:14. John tells us what BECAME of the "word."
John 1:2-5 testifies of the MAN that the “word” became. John’s testimony about Jesus continues from John 1:9-13, and from John 1:16-18.

John talks about himself from John 1:6-8 and John 1:14-15, then John 1:19-28.

Me:

According to you perhaps.

And what is clear that you present yourself, that you are one who considers himself to be in authority, to say what scriptures comes after and next to a verse as one who acts as one who knows the original scriptures. And that is not an attitude brought about by faith, but rather of pride.

As for me, I take John's writing as they are written.

You said "John 1:2-5 testifies of the MAN that the “word” became."

And that MAN you are referring to is Jesus, isn't it? Let me quote John 1:2-3 "He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made".

You have just here then stumbled upon the truth that Jesus was in the beginning with God. That all things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus, nothing was made that was made. The only thing left now for you to do, is accept that or reject.
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You say "Apostle Peter wrote about Christ as the "word" or "plan" of God, thus: "He indeed was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:20)". Again, why do you tell people something which the verse clearly does not speak about? "HE" was foreordained. Peter is telling us about Jesus, not about anything else, such is a plan of God.

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, apostle Peter is talking about Jesus in 1 Peter 1:20. Peter is saying that Jesus was "foreordained" before the foundation of the word. What do you understand by "foreordained?" Did Christ already exist when God "foreordained" him before the foundation of the world? To answer this question, why don't you go over the Genesis account of creation and tell me how Christ could have existed before the foundation of the world.

Me:

It's good that you can see that Peter is talking about Jesus in 1 Peter 1:20, and so, Peter is not talking about a plan or what have you about Jesus. It's Jesus that he is talking about.

You asked, what do you understand by "foreordained"? The dictionary, where you also get what other words mean, defines "foreordained" as to be determined beforehand. The synonym is "predetermined". The right thing to do is check out the original word that was translated into the English "foreordained" and see what the Greek word means. It is the Greek word "proegnōsmenou" which means "knew beforehand".

You asked, Did Christ already exist when God "foreordained" him before the foundation of the world?

That is a question really pointing at you to know the answer, not at me.

You said "To answer this question, why don't you go over the Genesis account of creation and tell me how Christ could have existed before the foundation of the world".

No need. Let me start with your own words "John 1:2-5 testifies of the MAN that the “word” became." As I have shown you in the segment above, this tells us then that Jesus was in the beginning with God. That all things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus, nothing was made that was made.

Also at the start of Paul's letter to the Colossian church, like it was at the start of John's testimony, Paul said of Jesus and I quote:

Col. 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Also at the very start of Hebrews, the writer said and I quote:

Heb. 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
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You say "Hence, the "word" of God was WITH God in the beginning or before the foundation of the world. Why was the "word" God? Because the "word" of God has the power of God - that is, the "word" is always true and will always be fulfilled."

Perhaps you can point us where else in scriptures is there that the "word" refers to a plan, and where "god" is used as an adjective of any noun that means it has the power of God as you have made the term "God" in v. 1 to mean? Until then, this is all but your own doing and making.

INCQUISITOR:

Even if this is only my own interpretation, it is the only logical explanation for John’s use of the phrase, “and the word WAS God” that does not contradict the word of God.

The Trinitarian interpretation that the “word” WAS actually God is FALSE for two reasons: one, it would CONTRADICT the word of God that says there is ONLY ONE God from the beginning, and two, if the “word” was actually God and BECAME a MAN, it would CONTRADICT the word of God written in Num. 23:19 that says God is NOT a man.

Me:

Yes, it is the only logical explanation for John’s use of the phrase, “and the word WAS God” that does not contradict your belief.

The matter at hand is, you can't point us where else in scriptures is there that the "word" refers to a plan, and where "god" is used as an adjective of any noun that means it has the power of God as you have made the term "God" in v. 1 to mean. That then, this is all but your own doing and making.
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You say "What follows John 1:1 should be John 1:14 to let us know what happened to this "word" or "plan" of God. John 1:14 says, "And the word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

So, in addition you are telling people that John 1:1 should be followed by John 1:14 instead of John 1:2. Well, the obvious reason for that is so that you can make it appear to say what you want.

You say "This is John's way of telling us that the "plan" of God was fulfilled. Hence, it is clear that the "word" BECAME flesh, and it is the "flesh" into whom the "word became" that dwelt among us."

Obviously, it is your way, not John's.

INCQUISITOR:

This is my way of “rightly dividing the word of truth” that John wrote in John 1:14. If what John wrote could be taken “as is,” why then did apostle Paul write Timothy thus: “Be diligent to present yourself approved of God, a minister who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word o truth” (2 Tim. 2:15)?

Me:

Certainly your own way.

You asked "If what John wrote could be taken “as is,” why then did apostle Paul write Timothy thus: “Be diligent to present yourself approved of God, a minister who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word o truth” (2 Tim. 2:15)"?

As if by this, that it follows that you are rightly dividing the word of truth. No, it does not follow, I'm sorry to say.
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I say I believe that Jesus is a MAN and do not set aside nor ignore John 17:3 nor any of God's words. I believe Jesus when He said, "...that they may know YOU (referring to His Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is Him that He sent. God, being the only true God and none other, has been revealed to Israel from the very beginning. The rest of the world knew this not, as evidenced by their worship and belief in many gods. Now, not even Israel knew who the Christ is, whom the one true God have sent to the world.

INCQUISITOR:

You say you believe Jesus is a MAN and do not ignore nor set aside John 17:3. You say you believe Jesus when he said..."that they may know you (referring to the Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is him that He sent."

You may not realize it, but by saying this, you are admitting that Jesus is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, unless, one, you are IGNORANT of what the word "only" means, and two, you are IGNORANT of what "God" means that you would allow yourself to accept the absurdity of one God SENDING another God to do something.

Me:

You don't get to interpret what I say I believe better than I who said it, isn't it? As I don't get to interpret what you say you believe better than you. How do you get to have an honest and proper conversation when, even what others say to you, you twist to mean what you think they are saying, instead of taking what they say they meant to say in what they say to you? You have the right to disagree with what I say and to refute, but you do not have the right to tell me that what it is I mean to say is what you say I mean. I don't even know what to call such attitude and thinking.

INCQUISITOR:

I can only tell what a man thinks by what he says.

You say that You say that "you believe Jesus when he said..."that they may know you (referring to the Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is him that He sent."

If you are not admitting that Jesus Christ is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, after having said what you said, then you are admitting that one, you are IGNORANT of what the word "only" means, and two, you are IGNORANT of what "God" means that you would allow yourself to accept the absurdity of one God SENDING another God to do something.

If you are not admitting any of these, what can I say about your statement that "you believe Jesus when he said..."that they may know you (referring to the Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is him that He sent?"

Shouldn't I say then that you are a liar for saying this because you don't truly believe Jesus? As apostle Paul wrote, he who doesn't rightly divide the word of truth resorts to profane and idle babblings that increase to more ungodliness (2 Tim. 2:15).

Me:

You say "I can only tell what a man thinks by what he says". Why then do you think you know better than the man, on what he means in what he says?

You said ".... what can I say about your statement that "you believe Jesus when he said..."that they may know you (referring to the Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is him that He sent?"

This I should say is the proper way. If you don't understand what I said, rather than making guesses as to what I meant in what I said to you, you can ask me questions that will make you understand me.

With regards my statement "I believe Jesus when He said, "...that they may know YOU (referring to His Father who is in heaven), the ONLY TRUE God" and that Jesus Christ is Him that He sent.", I have already explained to you in our past discussions on John 17:3. But apparently, you want me to say it again. Here goes. First, understand that I believe Jesus. Jesus in saying what is written in John 17:3, speaks of eternal life. Here is where our understanding differs. I consider the big context, you don't. Jesus here talking about eternal life, says "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent". Why did Jesus have to say "the only true God" and not simply "who is God"? The obvious reason is because, people worship many gods. So Jesus here says that this is eternal life, knowing that there is but one God who is true, that is, His Father (in the context that man worships many other gods which even the Jews have come to believe and worship in the past and at the present time then), and knowing Jesus Christ.

INCQUISITOR:

You are ADDING too many things to what Jesus simply said to the Father, “…that they may know YOU, the ONY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT.” Jesus did not say, “there is but one God.” Jesus specifically identified the Father as “the ONLY TRUE God” among many or anyone that people call “god” or “God.” In other words, there is no other “ONLY TRUE God” except the Father. Therefore, Jesus is not God but was SENT by the ONLY TRUE God.

Me:

That is because it takes too many words to have someone like you, to understand what a man means to say by the words and statements he speaks and writes, and someone who knows better what a man means than the man himself.

And so, the discussion just go on in circles.
----------------------------------
I hope you can answer the simple questions:

1. How did you know that there is only one true God and not many?
2. How did you know that God will send a Messiah to the world?
3. How have you come to believe that it is Jesus, the son of Mary, spoken of in the Bible is the Christ that God have sent?

INCQUISITOR:

The answers to your questions are found in the Bible, where else?

Me:

Since you apparently wanted to be vague in your answer, then I'll have to guess as to what you meant by your answer.

I understand then that you came to know that there is only one true God and not many, in the Bible. And that goes as well, as to why you know that God will send a Messiah to the world, and that you come to believe that it is Jesus, the son of Mary, spoken of in the Bible is the Christ that God have sent.

Why and how is it then that you believe in the Bible in the first place?

INCQUISITOR:

I believe that the Bible is the word of God. Jesus says the word of God is truth (John 17:17). God says "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent; hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good" (Num. 23:19 KJV)? This is the reason why I do not BLINDLY believe ALL scriptures without comparing spiritual things (scriptures) with spiritual(scripture) as the Holy Spirit teaches (1 Cor. 2:13). I also do not think BEYOND what is written (1 Cor. 4:6) in order to avoid ADDING to or SUBTRACTING from the word of God (Rev. 22:18-19).

Me:

You say you believe that the Bible is the word of God. And you believe that because you say Jesus says the word of God is truth.

What did you first believe, the Bible, which have what Jesus says, or did you first believe in Jesus and then believe in the Bible?

INCQUISITOR:

I believe I was first made to believe that the Bible is the word of God. I was then told the story of Jesus which the pastor read from the Bible.

Me:

So, you first were made to believe that the Bible is the word of God. I gather then that its the Bible that you believed first. And what was the reason why you believe that?
---------------------------------
You say and believe that Jesus is NOT a "God" who BECAME flesh because of John 8:40 and John 17:3. Yes, Jesus is not a God, because Jesus is God and not some other God, for there is but only one God. But, if that's what you understand out of the said scriptures, then so be it with you. As for me, John 8:40 speaks of Jesus to be a man. John 17:3 speaks of Jesus' Father to be the only true God and that He was sent by Him. God also revealed elsewhere in scriptures that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son, who came forth from Him. God, in scriptures, reveals that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That the Son of God came down from heaven, having been sent to the world below. That Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. That Jesus Christ knew no sin. And so on and so forth. And I believe all of that, not one that I pick out and do not believe. For all is God's words and so are true, faithful, powerful, and trustworthy.

INCQUISITOR:

I also believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that the son of God came from heaven, which to me means, the son of man came from God (John 8:42), I also believe that Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, that Jesus Christ knew no sin. I also believe that these words of God are true, faithful and trustworthy.

However, I believe that these scriptures do NOT negate John 17:3 which explicitly teaches us that the Father is the ONLY TRUE God and Jesus Christ is a MAN (John 8:40) whom God SENT into the world (John 3:17; 17:3).

Me:

It's good that you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. The next thing to understand regarding this is what his being "son of God" means.

It's good that you believe that Jesus Christ, the son of God, came from heaven. The issue with you about this is what you take it to mean. You take it to mean that Jesus Christ came from God. And while it is true that Jesus Christ came from God, what it means when scripture says that the Son of God came down from heaven, speaks of something different.

It's good that you believe that Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega. The next thing to understand regarding this is what his being the "Alpha and Omega" means.

It's good that you believe that Jesus Christ knew no sin. The next thing to understand regarding this is what that means.

And of course, these truths does not contradict the rest of the truths revealed in scriptures.

INCQUIDITOR:

Of course, these truths do not contradict the rest of truths revealed in scriptures. There is no argument about that.

What Trinitarians like you want these verses to mean is what CONTRADICTS the truth revealed in John 17:3 and other related truths revealed in scriptures.

Me:

So, perhaps then you can tell me about the next thing to understand about these truths:

1. The truth: Jesus Christ is the son of God.

What does this mean that Jesus is the son of God? Scripture will not say this concerning Christ for no reason and without meaning. In relation to this, scripture says that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

INCQUISITOR:

The Bible does not tell us the reason why Jesus is the “son of God” and that Jesus is the “only begotten son of God.” Hence, what anyone says about the reason is pure conjecture.

To me, the reason is to show how important Jesus is to God, the Father, and give us reason to believe and have faith in EVERYTHING that Jesus says.

Me:

See, you understand differently again. I don't know what to do with that problem with you. Really. Anyway, the question is not the WHY, but the WHAT.

WHAT does this mean that Jesus is the son of God?
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2. The truth: Jesus Christ, the son of God, came from heaven.

You take this to mean that Jesus Christ came from God. But while it is true that Jesus Christ came from God, when scripture says that the Son of God "came down from heaven", speaks of something different. Here's what we can read in the writings of apostle John concerning Jesus:

John 3:31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

John 6:38 For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

Jesus came from heaven above. He came down from heaven, to do the will of His Father who sent Him, into the earth below. And after having done His Father's will on earth below, He have ascended back to heaven above, where He was before, and from where He have come down from.

INCQUISITOR:

John 3:13 – Jesus “came from above” does not negate the truth that Jesus came from God who is “above.”

John 6:33 – “comes down from heaven” does not negate the truth that Jesus came from God” who is “in heaven.”

John 6:38 – “have come down from heaven” does not negate the truth of what Jesus himself said: “…I proceeded forth and CAME FROM GOD; nor have I come of myself, but He sent me” (John 8:42).

John 6:62 – does not negate the truth of what Jesus himself said: “…Do not cling to me for I have not ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to MY Father and YOUR Father, to MY God and YOUR God” (John 20:17).

If Jesus were physically in heaven with HIS God and Father BEFORE God SENT him into the world, WHAT was Jesus? I bet you CANNOT rationally answer this, can you?

Me:

Again, the matter is not if John 3:13, John 6:33,38,62 negate or not whatever.

What you should address is that which I said, and I quote:

"Jesus came from heaven above. He came down from heaven, to do the will of His Father who sent Him, into the earth below. And after having done His Father's will on earth below, He have ascended back to heaven above, where He was before, and from where He have come down from."

And so as ever, when you can't refute, a problem for you goes to the surface. This problem of yours is evident in your question: If Jesus were physically in heaven with HIS God and Father BEFORE God SENT him into the world, WHAT was Jesus? I bet you CANNOT rationally answer this, can you?

It's a problem about your belief that Jesus is only a man who was created and existed only some 2000 years ago. And this is even more made complicated because you bring in human logic and reasoning into something that is of the divine. One thing you are right about, I can't help you with your problem because I don't believe what you believe about the person of Jesus.
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3. The truth: Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega.

What does this mean that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega? Scripture will not say this concerning Christ for no reason and without meaning. Concerning this, we have scriptures which have Jesus saying “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” in the book of Revelations, and we have in the same book this scripture “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

In another part of Revelations we have "Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

And still in another part of Revelations we have "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

We also have this scriptures in Isaiah “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

INCQUISITOR:

You said: “Concerning this, we have scriptures which have Jesus saying “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” in the book of Revelations, and we have in the same book this scripture “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The one who spoke in Rev. 1:8 who said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End” is the Lord God who is (today) (who was (yesterday) and is to come (forever), the Almighty (Rev. 4:8).

The one who spoke in Rev. 1:11 who said “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last” is Christ who lives and was dead and is alive forevermore (Rev. 1:17-18).

Note the DIFFERENCE. God is “Beginning and End” because He is the Beginning of all creation and He is also the End of the heavens and the earth that now exist (2 Peter 3:7, 10).

Jesus is the “First and Last” because he is the “firstborn over all creation” (Col. 1:15), the “firstborn from the dead” (Col. 1:18) and the Last “for he must reign till he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:25-26).

The one who “sat on the throne” (Rev. 21:5) and said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and the End” (Rev. 21:6) is God Almighty in whose right hand is a scroll (Rev. 5:1) which only the Lamb (Rev. 5:7,6) is worthy to open (Rev. 5:2).

The one speaking in Rev. 22:12 is Jesus. Who is coming quickly (Acts 17:31). I can’t explain why the verse says “the Beginning and the End, he First and the Last.” However, this does not negate the truth that God is the Beginning and the End while Jesus is the First and the Last, because the truth is, only Jesus will come on judgment day (Acts 17:31; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; 2 Peter 3:10).

What Isaiah wrote does not confuse me into thinking that Jesus is God. What Jesus said in John 8:40 and John 17:3 PEVAIL over what Isaiah wrote.

Me:

Oh, so you can't explain, without going against your belief, Rev. 22:12, as to the matter that Jesus there says and declares "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last". Perhaps, you would have to subtract and take away from Revelations that part "the Beginning and the End". But then, that would be at the risk of Revelation 22:19, which is tantamount to be separated from Christ.

Concerning Isaiah, of course, whatever scriptures you want to prevail over another, is solely under your own control and own will and own purpose.
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4. The truth: Jesus Christ knew no sin.

What does this mean that Jesus knew no sin? This means that Jesus committed no sin. But if my memory serves me right, you say that Jesus did commit sin. That would make Jesus then to have known sin, whatever sin that is that you say he is guilty of, rendering the truth that Jesus Christ knew no sin to be a lie.

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). God said he is not a man that he should lie (Num. 23:19). Therefore, c Apostle Paul wrote: “For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, Jesus could have sinned. Jesus said, he was “sanctified by the Father” (John 10:36). Jesus was made clean or pure by the Father. Only sin can make a MAN unclean, If Jesus were already clean or pure, God would not have had any reason to "sanctify" or make him clean.

I believe this verse is a mistranslation to support the FALSE belief that Jesus is God.

Me:

Your ever faithful reliance on your own human wisdom and logic apparently comes first every time.

You cited a verse freely, referring to it even. If I'm not mistaken it's 2 Corinthians 5:21. And you said you believe in the truth that Jesus knew no sin. Now, not long after, you doubt and on the basis of your own human wisdom and logic, tries to justify your doubt and say even that Jesus, being a MAN, could have lied and that Jesus could have sinned. That now, you seem to trash the very scripture you used and cited to support one of your doctrines.

So, now you go to John 10:36. Are you even sure that you will not trash this later on? You said "Jesus said, he was “sanctified by the Father” (John 10:36)". This could easily be dealt with if you know when that happened. Compare that to the time you said that Jesus committed a sin.

And besides, if Jesus by your understanding of him being sanctified by the Father as having been cleansed of sin, your problem with the truth 2 Corinthians 5:21, remains since by your understanding of "being santified" would still make Jesus to have sinned and therefore knew sin.

You don't get to trash scriptures such as in this case, if you'd be diligent enough and wise to do the noble thing to study what it means when Jesus was sanctified by the Father.
------------------------------------
And yes I say that John 2:19-22 and John 10:8 does not contradict what apostles Peter and Paul wrote, that God raised Jesus from the dead. As I said I take all of God's words in scriptures as equally true and has no contradiction. And so, taking Rom. 10:9, John 2:19-22 and John 10:18, all then must be true and are not be to be taken as contradicting each other, which leads us to the understanding that Jesus is no other but God who became flesh.

INCQUISITOR:

It is your FALSE understanding of John 2:19-22 and John 10:8 and your IGNORING John 17:3 that leads you and other Trinitarians to the FALSE understanding that Jesus is no other but God who BECAME flesh. If only you have faith in what Jesus says in John 17:3, you would come to the realization that Jesus was SENT by God - NOT God who BECAME flesh.

Me:

In your view, I have a faulty understanding. I can understand that. And in my view, I see you as the one whose understanding is faulty. We have different views about God. In your view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not Lord to you, but the Son is. In my view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is Lord to me, and so is the Son. In your view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not your Savior, but the Son is. In my view, God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is my Savior, and so is the Son.

INCQUISITOR:

What you say is true as far as our views are concerned. As a Christian, I believe and have faith in Jesus which is "made perfect" (James 2:22) by my obedience to his words and teachings.

To me, Jesus is NOT God because the Father is the ONLY TRUE God in conformity with the teaching of Jesus written in John 17:3.

To me, God is my Father - NOT Lord, in conformity with the words and teachings of Jesus written in Matthew 23:10 and John 20:17, and apostle Paul's teachings written in 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6 and Phil. 2:11.

To me, Jesus is Christ is my savior in conformity with the words and teachings of Jesus written in John 3:16-18 and apostle Paul's teachings written in Acts 5:31 that God exalted Jesus to His right hand to be prince and savior and in Eph. 5:23 and 25 where it is written that Jesus is the savior of the body, the church and gave his life for it.

Me:

Is your view that "God is my Father - NOT Lord" in conformity with the rest of scriptures that speaks of God as "kurios", that is, "Lord", which clearly tells us and is undeniable truth that God is Lord. Now, we must not forget that there is only one God and therefore only one Lord. Think about this, before Christ came in the flesh some 2000 years ago, who is it you say is him who is the Lord and the Lord of God's people? Is it not the only true God? And when Christ came, did the only true God cease to be Lord and Lord of God's people?

Is your view that "Jesus is Christ is my savior" means that God is not your savior? If so, is your view in conformity with the rest of scriptures that speaks of God as the savior of those who believe in Him?

INCQUISITOR:

I do not think beyond what Jesus explicitly teaches or preaches as written in the scriptures. My views are consistent with God's command to "listen to His son" (Mt. 17:5).

Me:

It's hard to face the truth, isn't it. If you say that your views are consistent and in conformity with the rest of scriptures, why can't you then answer the simple questions and show how they are in conformity with the rest of scriptures such as those I'm referring to?
-----------------------------------
Scriptures clearly say, faith comes by hearing the word of God. By hearing the the word OF God, it says. As such faith comes from God. And if it comes from God, we need to hear God. And we can hear God through His words. And His words are written, in scriptures. If you can't read, faith can come to you by having somebody read it for you, or by listening to one who reads scriptures. If you can read, read scriptures and faith can come to you.

If somebody tells you that, you are not to read scriptures, then he is a deceiver and is against God.
If somebody tells you that, you can read scriptures, but must not interpret it, then he is a deceiver and is against God.

INCQUISITOR:

What you are saying is DIFFERENT from what apostle Paul says in Romans 10:13-15. Apostle Paul specifies from WHOM we should HEAR the word of God. And apostle Paul provides hints on how to know when a preacher is SENT or not.

In 1 Cor. 2:13 apostle Paul wrote, "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual." A preacher SENT from God COMPARES spiritual things with spiritual.

In 2 Cor. 11:3-4 apostle Paul wrote: "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches ANOTHER Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME Jesus, the SAME spirit and the SAME gospel that the apostles preached.

In Galatians 1:6-8, apostle Paul wrote: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME gospel that Christ and the apostles preached.

ME:

It's not DIFFERENT INCquisitor, but is exactly what apostle Paul says. As I have explained, the apostles were the ones sent by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His witnesses and preach to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures speak of as being sent to preach, but the apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

Let me pick up my point from the scriptures "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

This is a clear reminder and warning of Paul to the Christians in Galatia. That the gospel that they have preached to them in the beginning is the gospel, the true gospel I may say. He greatly emphasizes this to the point of saying that if anyone, even they (he and the other apostles) or even an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel other than what they have preached to them then, Paul said "let him be accursed". Now, what is significant about this? As I have pointed out, we should always go back to scriptures when somebody preaches to you and claims that what they are preaching is the gospel of Christ. For, in the scriptures, we can find the gospel that the apostles preached that they were commissioned and sent to preach. In short, we don't get to readily and easily believe what others preach, but rather, go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach if it is in keeping with the gospel that the apostles preached, and believe what is there in scriptures, and not be deceived because of our lack of diligence.

INCQUISITOR:

Let me show you the FOLLY of what you are saying.

You have read 1 Cor. 8:6 where it reads, "yet for us there is ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

How come a lot of so-called Christians believe that Jesus Christ is ALSO God and for them there are TWO Lords - NOT one?

ME:

There is no folly to show in what I'm saying INCquisitor.

Regarding your question on 1 Cor.8:6, obviously you have a problem with that. God is my Lord. And Jesus Christ is my Lord. Why do you have a problem with that? The way I see it, it's because God is not your Lord. Anyway, this is not the issue in this thread.

INCQUISITOR:

Obviously, you don't listen to what God says in scriptures. And this is the folly of your OPINION that it is enough to read scriptures to have "faith by hearing the apostles through scriptures."

ME:

Well, if there are no other scriptures other than 1 Cor. 8:6, you may be right. But, that is not the case. And this is what is obvious, your scriptures is different from the Holy scriptures I read.

Perhaps, you can now go back to the issue under this thread.

INCQUISITOR:

You say: "In short, we don't get to readily and easily believe what others preach, but rather, go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach if it is in keeping with the gospel that the apostles preached, and believe what is there in scriptures, and not be deceived because of our lack of diligence."

Aren't you contradicting yourself? 1 Cor. 8:6 is scripture. It's what apostle Paul preached.

As you correctly stated, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." This can rightly be applied to the one who taught you the FALSE doctrine that "God is your Lord and Jesus Christ is ALSO your Lord," CONTRARY to what apostle Paul preached as written in 1 Cor. 8:6.

Me:

And as I said we can hear God through His words. And His words are written, in scriptures.

And I am not contradicting myself. While Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.", Peter said in 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:", and Jude said in Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is the same thing with the truth that Jesus is the Savior and God is the Savior. And this you don't believe, even while scriptures testify to this.

Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;", and Peter says in 2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:", and Jude says in Jude 1:25 "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Jesus is Lord. God is Lord.
Jesus is the Savior. God is the Savior.

INCQUISITOR:

If we take every scripture as TRUE without comparing them with other scriptures as the Holy Spirit teaches in 1 Cor. 2:13 (NKJV), we would have the apostles CONTRADICTING each other or apostles CONTRADICTING even Jesus Christ, their "ONLY LORD and Master" (Jude 1:4 TEV).

In the Ang Biblia version of Mt. 23:10, Jesus said, "Ni huwag kayong patawag na mga panginoon; sapagka't IISA and inyong panginoon, samakatuwid baga'y, ANG CRISTO (Do not be called 'Lords' for ONE is your 'Lord', the Christ)."

In 1 Cor. 8:6, apostle Paul was teaching the early Corinthian Christians the lesson that Jesus Christ taught his disciples in Mt. 23:10, that Christ is their ONLY ONE 'Lord.'

On the other hand, what apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 about God being Lord, is a statement - NOT a teaching. In fact, the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and the United Bible Societies' third edition of 1 Peter 3:15 reads, "sanctify Christ as Lord."

The same twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and the United Bible Societies' third edition of Jude1:4 omits God. Hence, the Today's English Version of Jude 1:4 also reads as follows: "For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our ONLY Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received."

Me:

You said "On the other hand, what apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 about God being Lord, is a statement - NOT a teaching."

A statement may not be a teaching. But that has nothing to do with a statement being true. And the said statements of Jude and Peter testifies who is God to them, that is, Lord God and their Savior.

If you go to 1 Cor. 2:13 and take what Paul said, and you take that which Paul taught that only Christ is Lord and that God is not, as true, then you must have to interpret all other scriptures such as that of Peter and Jude to not go against it, right? But that is not the right way to take God's equally true words in scriptures. We must take them as to what they say.

To Peter and Jude, God is Lord.
God is Lord even in the days of old, to the prophets and patriarchs.

If your understanding of scriptures denies this truth, then there is the problem with you.

I take all of God's words in scriptures as equally true and has no contradiction. And so, taking Paul's statement that there is only one Lord, and that to be Jesus Christ, only tells me who Jesus Christ is, for, from the beginning, the only Lord God is God, who is known to be the only Lord God even in ancient times and by the prophets and patriarchs.

INCQUISITOR:

If what Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 - that God is Lord - is a teaching, then we would have two apostles teaching two different doctrines. You say you believe BOTH 1 Cor. 8:6 and 1 Peter 3:15 to be true. That's your call. You can believe whatever you want to believe. It won't change the way I divide the word of truth.

Heb. 1:1-2 tells us that God spoke separately to our fathers by the prophets and to us in these last days by His son. God commanded our fathers by the prophets to call Him 'Lord.' God has spoken to us in these last days by His son Jesus, who taught his disciples not to be called 'Lord,' for ONE is their 'Lord,' the Christ (Mt. 23:10).

Me:

Yes I say BOTH 1 Cor. 8:6 and 1 Peter 3:15 are true. And why not?

As I have pointed out, to Peter and Jude, God is Lord. And that God is Lord even in the days of old, to the prophets and patriarchs. If God is Lord yesterday, why would God not be Lord today and tomorrow? And may I ask, what does it mean to you when one says God is ones' Lord?

And don't tell me that you are trashing away all of the NT scriptures which refers to God as Lord (kurios). Your Bible would surely grow much thinner by then.

INCQUISITOR:

As far as I am concerned, I believe what apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 8:6 more than what apostle Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:15 about God being his Lord because what apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 8:6 conforms with what Jesus taught his disciples in Mt. 23:10 (Ang Biblia). Perhaps apostle Peter, being a Jew, wrote 'Lord God' by force of habit, or translators did not want to believe what Jesus taught and what apostle Paul wrote and ADDED 'Lord' before 'God' when they translated 1 Peter 3:15.

I call God my Father just as Jesus calls God his Father (John 20:17). God's command to our fathers to call Him 'Lord' does not apply to me. I'm a Christian. Thus, I follow what Christ teaches.

Me:

Well you can think all you want about Peter and Jude. No one denies you that. But, if you'll be kind and brave enough, could you please answer the very simple and basic questions I asked:

If God is Lord yesterday, why would God not be Lord today and tomorrow? And may I ask, what does it mean to you when one says God is ones' Lord?

INCQUISITOR:

Heb. 1:1-2 teaches that God in various ways and at various times spoke to our fathers in the past by the prophets but has spoken to us by His son. In the past, God commanded His people to call Him 'Lord.' In these last days, God has spoken to us by His son and has "commanded His son what to say and what to speak" (John 12:49-50).

Therefore, to the ancient people of God, God is Lord.

By contrast, God's people in these last days, the true Christians, call God Father and call Jesus Christ Lord in compliance with what Jesus taught his disciples that they have only one Father, He who is in heaven (Mt. 23:9), that his God is their God and his Father is their Father (John 20:17). Jesus also commanded his disciples not to have themselves called 'Lord' for ONE is their 'Lord', the Christ (Mt. 23:10 Ang Biblia). Apostle Peter wrote that God made Jesus "Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:"36).

Me:

So, ok. You can't answer my simple questions. As for me, God is Lord yesterday, today and tomorrow. And what it means for God to be one's Lord is that God is him, that he obeys and serves.

Now, let me deal with your deviation.

Yes, God in various ways and at various times spoke to our fathers in the past by the prophets. And what He have spoken is true. And yes God has spoken to us by His son some 2000 years ago. And what He have spoken is true.

You said "In the past, God commanded His people to call Him 'Lord.'". Please show me where in scriptures is that.

INCQUISITOR:

In the past, everyone was subject to God and everyone was commanded to obey and serve Him only. God told our fathers, He is Lord (Deut. 4:35; 6:4).

In these last days, God made Christ 'Lord' (Acts 2:36) and "put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22).

Me:

And so, there really is no scripture to show in the past that says that God commanded His people to call Him 'Lord.'. And that this is just your own teaching.

You said "God told our fathers, He is Lord (Deut. 4:35; 6:4)."

Deuteronomy 4:35 (INSERTS MINE)
35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord(YHWH) Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 6:4
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord(YHWH) our God, the Lord(YHWH) is one!

The scriptures you cited does not say what you say.

And from what you want to imply, the question needs be answered by you. So, please stop running away from it and be brave to face it, that is, if you say you have the truth. The question is:

If God is Lord and is the Lord in the past, did He ceased to be Lord and the Lord today?

INCQUISITOR:

To Disciples of Christ, God is no longer Lord. To them, God is their Father by virtue of what Jesus taught them in Mt. 23:10 and what apostle Paul preached in 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:4-6.

What pagans or non-disciples of Christ call their god is not my concern.

Me:

So, you give up, since you can't prove and support your teaching that God commanded His people in the OT to call Him 'Lord'.

Clear, your doctrine is that, to you and those who believe your teachings, who call themselves Disciples of Christ, that God is no longer Lord today. A simple question is : Do the Disciples of Christ obey and serve God, and no other, but Him alone?
-------------------------------
I too call God, "Abba,Father". I'm a Christian too, because I believe and follow Christ, because I believe and follow God. I call Him Father not because it was commanded of me, but because I have received from Him, that which He has given me, the Spirit of adoption by whom I cry out, “Abba, Father.”

INCQUISITOR:

Why then do you insist on calling God 'Lord?'

Me:

Even while God is my Father, God is my Lord. Because scriptures testify that God is Lord and even the Lord of lords and King of kings even. So God is my King as well. I obey and serve Him. Don't you? I think you do too, though you just refuse to admit that he is lord and so deny God as your Lord, and so just refuse to call Him 'Lord', as you think that you should not for you think that by doing so, you are contradicting what Paul said in 1 Cor. 8:6, that there is one Lord, that is, Jesus Christ. And you take it that way even while you know in your heart that the only one that man must obey and serve is God.

INCQUISITOR:

I showed you Heb. 1:1-2. Don't you believe nor understand what it says? To the patriarchs, God was 'Lord.' To true Christians or followers of Christ, Christ is 'Lord' while God is their Father (John 20:17; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6).

Obeying Jesus as 'Lord' also means obeying God. Jesus said his doctrine is His who sent him (John 7:16). Jesus said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees Him who sent me" (John 12:24). "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak" (John 12:49-50).

If you don't believe these words of Christ, then you are not a Christian.

Me:

Yes, I know what Heb. 1:1-2 says. And it says "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds". What we have there is that God, in the last days spoken to us by His Son. So, what does that have to do with the issue that God is Lord? And it does not say that God is no longer Lord, nor does it say anything to the effect that He is not to be Lord to the Christian. It amazes me that you keep wanting verses say what they don't say every time you can't show scriptures to support what you teach.

You can't accept, and so deny, the truth that in the past, present, and future, God is Lord and is the Lord, that He is the only one that man must obey and serve. And that, even while you know this truth in your heart. I'm sure that even now, your heart tells you to obey and serve no other, but God.

You said "Obeying Jesus as 'Lord' also means obeying God". Don't you see it? Your obeying Jesus is actually coming from your obeying God. If God have not commanded you to believe and obey Jesus as your Lord, would Jesus be your Lord and obey and serve him? I'm sure you won't. So, why do you keep denying that God is Lord over you, when all that you do is out of obedience and service to Him?

It doesn't matter if you call me a Christian or not. Being called a Christian is not that which saves me anyway.

INCQUISITOR:

As I said, Jesus taught his disciples not to have themselves called Lord, for one is their Lord, the Christ (Mt. 23:10). Apostle Paul wrote that “for us (Disciples of Christ), there is only one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6).

I am not as good as you are in thinking beyond what is written. God commands me to “listen to Jesus” (Mt. 17:5). Therefore, I listen only to what Jesus says and not think beyond what Jesus says.

A Christian is a Disciple of Christ (Acts 11:26). Only Disciples of Christ will meet Christ when he comes again.

Me:

Yes. And you have been saying that over and over, to which I said nothing against. My point is that, you do so, out of obedience and service to God, which you have not commented on. You can't face the truth that it is God whom you truly obey and serve. And that, undeniably makes God your Lord, which is that which should be. One should not be ashamed to say that. So, it makes me wonder why you are, even to the extent of denying that God is your Lord.

If a man ever would seek any to be his Lord, it would be no other, but God.
------------------------------
You said "God's command to our fathers to call Him 'Lord' does not apply to me."

First, can you show in scriptures where we can learn that God commanded our fathers to call Him 'Lord'?

Second,if God did commanded them to call Him 'Lord', for what reason is that? And how is God, Lord over them?

Also, in the NT times, what can you understand as to the matter of scriptures, when referring to God, refers to him as "kurios"?

INCQUISITOR:

On your first and second questions, I am not well-versed on Old Testament scriptures. I only know that writers of the OT called God 'Lord.' On your third question, I don't speak Greek. Hence, I don't know why NT scriptures refer to God as 'Lord' except perhaps by force of habit or translators' desire to call God 'Lord.'

Me:

That tells me then that you don't know the truths that God revealed of himself to man in time past. And if you admit that you are not well-versed on Old Testament scriptures, why do you say that God commanded our fathers to call Him 'Lord'? That would then just be guessing and so whatever then you base on that is then only based on a guess. If you take God's words, even in the OT scriptures, as important, holy, and good, and cares enough to know Him, I suggest you start finding out what He revealed of Himself to man, even in the OT.

If your excuse is that you don't speak Greek, so that you don't know why NT scriptures refer to God as 'Lord', I can't see how you know why scriptures refer to God as 'Father'. And in general then, I can't see how you know why and can believe translations of the other Greek words.

Even if we, for the sake of argument, take that scriptures does not say that God is Lord or master, must you obey and serve God or not? If you must, is He then not your Lord?

In the scripture below, who do you say is the Lord referred to here?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

INCQUISITOR:

Is there any other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved? You know the answer to that, don't you?

Me:

There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved, except the name of Jesus, the Christ, the son of God, the Lord, the Savior.

And I don't know your answer to my simple question because you don't and perhaps can't or can but is not brave enough to, answer it. And I will not guess. I'll take it as you don't know who is the Lord referred to in the scriptures below, unless you tell me who he is.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Don't be ashamed to tell me, if you know. If you know the truth why be ashamed to say it?

INCQUISITOR:

Not everyone CAN call on the name of Christ to be saved. Apostle Paul wrote: “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? (Rom. 10:14-15)

Me:

As it is, either you truly don't know or you don't want to know the answer. I asked, because I expected the self-proclaimed commissioned disciple of Christ in the last days to easily answer it and not evade the question.

In the scripture below, who do you say is the Lord referred to here?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Now, if you can't answer the simple question, just say so. No problem. Besides, I think that you can't.
------------------------------------------------

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 INCQUISITOR:

Most MISINTERPRET this verse to mean that "faith is the gift from God." Apostle Paul writes, "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is the "thing HOPED for" and the kingdom of God is the "thing unseen" for which "faith is the substance and evidence (Heb. 11:1) respectively.

ME:

Regarding the "thing hoped for" and the "thing unseen", read my discussion about this at the top segment of this post.

With regards to Ephesians 2:8-9, let's see here the correct interpretation by going through the verse:

For by grace you have been saved. This phrase tells of the Christian that he have been saved. And how? By grace, Paul says.

What does Paul mean in saying that the Christian have been saved "by grace"? We get to understand that in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

INCQUISITOR:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

These verses do not tell us that "faith comes from God."

What "grace" means is that because of God's love for the world, He SENT His son into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:16-17).

Of course, salvation is not by ourselves nor of works. It is a result of faith.

Apostle Paul writes, "For whoever CALLS on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him whom they have NOT believed? And how shall they believe in him whom they have NOT heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace. Who bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report? So then FAITH comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:16-17).

Thus, faith is the result of HEARING the gospel from a PREACHER SENT from God, BEIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel SAYS and INSTRUCTS one to do.

ME:

Yes Ephesians 2:8-9 does speak about the truth that faith comes from God. And I have explained to you clearly what the passage tells us in my post above.

You said "What "grace" means is that because of God's love for the world, He SENT His son into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:16-17)."

That is not what grace means INCquisitor. That is the grace of God. Here's a verse that can help you understand what grace means:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In the Greek, the word translated "grace" is "charis" which means favor, kindness. Grace is as a gift or blessing.

And perhaps now you can better understand the scriptures "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, men did not have to work or do anything for God to SEND His son into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17). God SENT His son out of His love for us. But it is through "faith in Jesus" that we are saved. This is what Paul meant when he said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Apostle Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:23).

ME:

The verse says "For by grace"... Now this means, not by works. If not by works, what then? As I have pointed out,we get to understand "For by grace", in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

You said "But it is through "faith in Jesus" that we are saved". It's good that you say that. Do you mean by that, that you agree, that it is not of yourself and not through works that we are saved, as Eph.2:8-9 says?

INCQUISITOR:

It's true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says. However, this is where we should take other scriptures into consideration.

What does "faith in Jesus" mean or entail? In John 8:31-32, Jesus said to the Jews who "believed him", If you ABIDE in my word, you are MY disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." What does ABIDE in the word of Jesus mean? Doesn't that mean "obeying what Jesus COMMANDS you to do?" Isn't that "work?"

In Matt. 7:21, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the WILL of my Father in heaven." Is DOING the WILL of the Father NOT "work?"

In James 2:14 and 20, apostle James wrote: "What does it profit my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? But do you want to know O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

The works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9 is definitely different from the "works" mentioned in Matt. 7:21 that is needed for salvation.

Me:

It's good that you take as true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says.

Now, whatever you say then with regards this truth will not get out of line if you keep in mind Eph. 2:8-9 which says "For BY GRACE you have been SAVED through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God, 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. Forgetting that or setting aside the truth that one is SAVED through faith, and NOT OF WORKS, in considering other scriptures which speaks of how one is saved, almost always leads one to the error of being saved through faith and works, making one to able to boast of being saved, not only by having faith in Christ, but by his works.

INCQUISITOR:

Sticking to Eph. 2:8-9 without regards to Matt. 7:21 and James 2:14 is the fatal error of Christian-professing religions today. How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches? How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?

Sadly, Christian-professing religions are IGNORANT of the "works" that make "faith perfect" in order to benefit from God's "saving grace through faith in Jesus."

Me:

You just said "It's true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says."

That statement of yours is clear. The matter is if you meant what it says.

You asked:

How can one be saved by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches? How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?"

Your questions here just shows that you didn't mean what your statement above says or really do not understand Eph.:8-9.

INCQUISITOR:

You must be ignorant of what "faith in Jesus" entails. While it is true that it is "through faith in Jesus" and not of ourselves or through works that we are saved as Eph. 2:8-9 says. we cannot just set aside Mt. 7:21 and James 2:14 simply because we don't know the "will of the Father" necessary to be DONE to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I believe Eph. 2:8-9 and understand what it is telling us. As I said earlier, the works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9 is definitely different from the "works" mentioned in Matt. 7:21 that is needed for salvation. Besides, Eph. 2:8-9 CANNOT prevail over the words of Jesus written in Matthew 7:21.

Any "work" that people do to earn salvation, like religiously going to church, giving alms to the poor, giving monetary offerings, observing religious holidays, nor eating blood, etc. which are NOT the "WILL of the Father" are "works that one can boast of." These are the works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9.

The "work" mentioned in Mt. 7:21 is specific. One MUST "DO the WILL of the Father" to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Once again, I ask: "How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches? How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?"

Me:

I am not setting aside Mt. 7:21 and James 2:14 nor a single scripture, unlike you who have even trashed away many scriptures.

You said:

<<the works mentioned in Eph. 2:8-9 is definitely different from the "works" mentioned in Matt. 7:21 that is needed for salvation.>>

Clearly, Eph.2:8-9 does not exclude any work by saying "not of works". Anyway, you say that Matt. 7:21 speaks of works needed for salvation, even while no works is mentioned really. What works are you then talking about,for the sake of argument? You even said "The "work" mentioned in Mt. 7:21 is specific. One MUST "DO the WILL of the Father" to enter the kingdom of heaven". What work is that?

You asked: "How can one be saved "by grace through faith in Jesus" if one does NOT "do the WILL of the Father" as Jesus teaches?

Believe and have faith in His Son Jesus Christ. That is the will of the Father.

You asked: "How can one be saved if one does NOT believe James 2:14 which is the word of God?"

I think that when one does not believe any scriptures, he really do not have faith in God, for he rejects and does not believe the word of God.

Now, regarding James 2:14, you might like to read v.18 to see the point of James there.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

INCQUISITOR:

You say the will of the Father is to "believe and have faith in Jesus."

You say you "believe and have faith in Jesus." What "works" can you show to make your faith in Jesus perfect, just as Abraham's faith was made perfect by his works (James 2:21-22)? Don't you believe God's word which says, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20)?

Me:

I believe all of God's words including James 2:20.

Now, you asked "" What "works" can you show to make your faith in Jesus perfect, just as Abraham's faith was made perfect by his works (James 2:21-22)?". Such question comes about when one does not get the point of what James is saying in v.18.

James 2:18, " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works".

Considering v.18, James'point is that the faith of one is SHOWN or SEEN by works. And you will understand what he said in the next verse, "19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble". The devils too can be said to have faith, same as anyone who believe that there is one God, such as the Muslims and the Christians. Now, look at the devil's works. What faith do you see? So, you see, James' real focus here is about faith. He speaks of works, not so much that it was what he was talking about, but because it is by works that faith is SHOWN and is SEEN.

Of the case James mentioned of Abraham, v. 22 says " Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Clearly, the verse tells us how faith have moved Abraham to act and do as he had. And that by such doing and working, his faith was made perfect, meaning, is made complete or is consummated, having reached its end aim and accomplish its goal.

Verse 23 says "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." Clearly, all that James said of the case of Abraham, it was Abraham's faith that was imputed unto him for righteousness, not anything else.

The matter with regards to the work that Abraham did here is that, though even while he believe in God, should Abraham have not acted on his faith or have done what is contrary to it, such faith is said to be dead. For a faith that does not move one to act or does not produce works, is dead.

INCQUISITOR:

I believe you now understand what "faith made perfect by works" mean. I think you are now ready to "make your faith in Jesus perfect" by obeying his commands and abiding in his word or following his teachings,

Me:

I think you did not see and understand anything in my post regarding James 2. Consider going through it again so that you don't get to have the wrong impression and conclusion.

So, I'll just say this, and perhaps you will consider and meditate on it: It is faith that is imputed unto the believer for righteousness, not anything else.

INCQUISITOR:

Isn't this what you said? You said, "So, you see, James' real focus here is about faith. He speaks of works, not so much that it was what he was talking about, but because it is by works that faith is SHOWN and is SEEN."

What use is "faith" that is not shown or seen? James calls it "faith that is dead." Would the faith of Abraham in God made him a friend of God if he did not obey God's command for him to sacrifice Isaac?

What use is your "faith in Jesus" if you don't obey his words or teachings?

Me:

I agree that if someone says he has faith but does not have works, it doesn't profit him anything. And so, faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Would the faith of Abraham in God made him a friend of God if he did not obey God's command for him to sacrifice Isaac?

Since it's a hypothetical question, I could only give you a hypothetical answer. If Abraham did not obey God in sacrificing Isaac, by such he will not be called a friend of God.

Now, let me asked you, by what Abraham have done, what profit did Abraham have by it? Is him being called the fiend of God is it?

And take a look at this regarding the faith of Abraham here, with the fact that he obeyed God. Is his sacrificing Isaac is that which was imputed unto him as righteousness? Why is it that it is faith that was imputed unto him as righteousness and not what he have done?

INCQUISITOR:

This shows that faith and works ALWAYS go together. The faith of Abraham which was "made perfect" by his obedience to God was imputed unto him as righteousness.

Me:

Nonetheless, it is faith that is imputed unto the believer for righteousness, not anything else.
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Now, Paul said "it is the gift of God". What is the "it" referring to? From the verse, it can easily be understood that the "it" refers to the Christian's salvation ("have been saved"). It does not refer to faith, for it is not what is in view in the verse, rather, the salvation of the Christian is what is in view. So, what Paul is saying in the verse, is that, salvation is God's gift to the Christian. Now, we know that salvation means eternal life. We can see this in the statement of Paul, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.".

Thank you for commenting on Ephesians 2:8-9. It opened the door for me to show you that salvation is a gift. Do you know what that means?

INCQUISITOR:

Of course I have known all along that salvation or eternal life - NOT faith - is the gift of God. I also know that we can only receive this gift of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus or by HEARING the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God, BELIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel says or INSTRUCTS us to do.

In case you have not heard it before, "the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks. FOR IN IT, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Therefore, it is important to test whether the gospel that one is hearing, believing and obeying is the true gospel of Christ. The only way of knowing whether the gospel one is hearing is the true gospel of Christ is if it REVEALS the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

ME:

There is a lot of difference between having faith in Jesus Christ and that of the matter of hearing the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God. And the former is where one get to receive eternal life. So, your statement "I also know that we can only receive this gift of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus OR by HEARING the gospel of Christ from a preacher sent from God, BELIEVING the gospel and OBEYING what the gospel says or INSTRUCTS us to do", is faulty.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, a preacher SENT from God preaches the gospel of Christ. Hence, hearing from a preacher SENT from God is tantamount to hearing the gospel of Christ. As Christ told his disciples long ago, "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who Sent ME" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

Luke 10:16 refers to no other but to those whom Jesus have sent in those times. It does not include any of those now who claims to be sent by Jesus or by God.

Now, there are plenty in these days who claims to be sent from God, and that they claim to be the only ones sent and no other. And one say to the other, that he is a false messenger, and so too will the other say to the other. As each one denies the other, one need not have to really choose between them who is true or not. For we can go to those in scriptures spoken to be sent by Jesus to preach the gospel, that is, His apostles. What they have preached, God have inspired to be written in scriptures. So, if one reads in scriptures what they preached, they could be sure that they are hearing the true gospel.

INCQUISITOR:

What you say is easier said than done. Case in point: Apostles Peter (Acts 3:15) and Paul (Rom. 10:9) preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. FALSE preachers preach that Jesus RAISED himself from the dead.

Apostle Paul preached that Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Peter preached that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22). Jesus himself preached that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true od (John 17:3). FALSE preaches preach that Jesus is ALSO God.

Only true DISCIPLES of Christ can preach the TRUE gospel of Christ.

Me:

There were many disciples of Christ when He came and went teaching when He was on earth. But there were only twelve that the Lord have chosen.

John 6
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus UNTO THE TWELVE, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, HAVE I NOT CHOSEN YOU TWELVE, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Of the twelve, here's what Jesus revealed:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

And it came to pass, that Judas betrayed and not before long, Judas killed himself. So of the twelve, there were left 11.

To the eleven, Jesus commanded them:

Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, it came to pass that the eleven have chosen another one to be an apostle, to take the place of Judas Iscariot:

Acts 1:24-26
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Now, it came to pass that Jesus have chosen another to be His apostle to the Gentiles, that is Saul (Paul). Refer to Acts 9.

Here's what Paul testifies:

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

The "they" in the verse refers to the other apostles.

Now, after these chosen apostles, were there any other men chosen by God or by the Lord Jesus Christ, to the same work and ministry?

As I have explained, the apostles were the ones sent by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His witnesses and preach to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures speak of as being sent to preach, but the apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Jesus Christ to be His apostles and preach the gospel. For the scriptures have said and warned "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

Now, in the scriptures, we can find the gospel that the apostles preached of which they were commissioned and were sent out to preach. In short, we go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach and so learn of the gospel of Christ and believe it.

INCQUISITOR:

As I said, what you say is easier said than done. Again, I say, apostles Peter (Acts 3:15) and Paul (Rom. 10:9) preached that God RAISED Jesus from the dead. These are scriptures. Yet, FALSE preachers preach that Jesus RAISED himself from the dead. These FALSE preachers REFUSE to listen to apostles Peter and Paul!

Apostle Paul preached that Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Peter preached that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22). Jesus himself preached that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). These are also scriptures which anyone can read. Yet, FALSE preaches preach that Jesus is ALSO God. These FALSE preachers also REFUSE to listen to Jesus!

These FALSE preachers say they preach the true gospel of Christ. How can they when they preach other gospels that apostles Paul and Peter and even Jesus have preached? As apostle Paul wrote, let these FALSE preachers be accursed!

Again, I say, ONLY true DISCIPLES of Christ can preach the TRUE gospel of Christ.

Me:

And again I will refer you back to my previous post above and try to see the point I was making and give it some thought.

INCQUISITOR:

The proliferation of FALSE teachers of religions prove that your point of view is FALSE. If you REFUSE to change your point of view, it does not make any difference to me.

Me:

Same here. I'll go with the truth of scriptures. And I would not dare exchange what truth scriptures says for any teachings of any one who claims to have the truth, even one who claims to be a chosen and commissioned disciple of Christ today, nor even an angel, for scriptures tells me "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed".

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul wrote Gal. 1:8 and said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed". He also wrote 1 Cor. 8:6 where he taught that for him and Christ's disciples, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father, and ONLY ONE Lord Jesus Christ..." Therefore, let those FALSE teachers who teach any other gospel (message) than that which apostle Paul preached in 1 Cor. 8:6 be ACCURSED.

Me:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH.

And to all who think to be a commissioned disciple of Christ today, and claim to be sent and chosen like the apostles of Christ, including Paul, and preach what they think and claim they are, and claims that only they, have the truth and correct understanding of scriptures, may God have mercy on them.

INCQUISITOR:

This goes for you and Tomas too.

Me:

I don't claim to be a commissioned disciple of Christ today, and claim to be sent and chosen like the apostles of Christ. I don't know about Tomas. I can't speak for him.

incquisitor:

No further comment.

Me:

But you do claim such, don't you?

INCQUISITOR:

This is what Jesus taught his disciples (Mt. 5:2): "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glory your Father in heaven" (Mt. 5:14-16).

Me:

But you do claim such, that is, you are a commissioned disciple of Christ today, even the only one for that matter, and claim to be sent and chosen like the apostles of Christ, even to be at par with them. Do you deny or affirm?
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With regards to your other post here, thanks, but I have read and heard that passage long time ago. And it reminds me, I asked you some time ago on the passage you cited, what does "faith to faith" means? If my memory serves me right, you said you don't know. I wonder then how you could understand the passage and cite it, when you don't know what it means.

INCQUISITOR:

I wrote:

In case you have not heard it before, the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks. FOR IN IT, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Therefore, it is important to test whether the gospel that one is hearing, believing and obeying is the true gospel of Christ. The only way of knowing whether the gospel one is hearing is the true gospel of Christ is if it REVEALS the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God."

You ask, "what does "faith to faith" mean?

Apostle Paul says, "for in it (the gospel of Christ}, the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is REVEALED from faith to faith."

I believe that this is a way to test the authenticity of whoever claims to be a preacher sent from God. The gospel of Christ that one preaches must REVEAL the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God. Otherwise, the gospel that one preaches is FALSE.

ME:

Sorry, but I still don't really get what "faith to faith" means for you. Are you saying that "faith" there refers to other faith, as in, other belief?

INCQUISITOR:

There is only one righteousness of God that is revealed by the true gospel of Christ. It is by this revelation of the gospel of Christ that the authenticity of the gospel being preached is tested.

Me:

As the scriptures says, that in the gospel of Christ, is the righteousness of God. And the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

If you don't get to see there what the righteousness of God is, I pray to God to give you understanding.

INCQUISITOR:

Does the gospel you preach reveal the righteousness of God? I dare say no.

Apostle Paul wrote: "For He made him who knew no sin t be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Tell us, what is the "righteousness of God" that apostle Paul was talking about? How does one become the "righteousness of God" in Christ?

Me:

Yes, for what I spread is what is preached by the chosen apostles in scriptures.

... we might become the righteousness of God in him is what the verse says. Even that I guess you don't seem to understand.

As I said, the scriptures says, that in the gospel of Christ, is the righteousness of God. And the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD is REVEALED from FAITH TO FAITH:

AS IT IS WRITTEN, THE JUST SHALL LIVE by FAITH.

What is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD?

It is what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH!

Read what is said in scriptures what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH, which will lead to what is written: THE JUST SHALL LIVE by FAITH

INCQUISITOR:

You didn't tell me what the "righteousness of God" is that YOUR gospel reveals. You simply said, "As I said, the scriptures says, that in the gospel of Christ, is the righteousness of God. And the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

If I were your Bible student, what did you teach me as the "righteousness of God" that is revealed from faith to faith? Nothing? Therefore, the gospel you preach is NOT the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes what you preach.

Scripture says, "for in it (the gospel), the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" (Rom. 1:17). Your gospel MUST reveal to your Bible students what the righteousness of God is. Be honest to yourself and to your Bible students and tell them that you are IGNORANT of what the "righteousness of God" is.

Me:

And as I said, the gospel I share and spread is what is preached by the chosen apostles in scriptures.

Now haven't I given you the Bible to tell you about the righteousness of God? I said "It is what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH! Read what is said in scriptures what is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH, which will lead to what is written: THE JUST SHALL LIVE by FAITH".

Let me quote some scriptures that reveals the righteousness of God from FAITH TO FAITH.

Hebrews 11:

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul wrote that "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become God's righteousness in him (in Christ)" (2 Cor. 5:21).

You say these scriptures reveal the "righteousness of God." What is the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal? How can we become the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal?

Me:

What is the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal?

Apparently you still can't see the righteousness of God in the scriptures I have given you. That's sad. Only God can open the eyes of one who can't see.

How can we become the "righteousness of God" that these scriptures reveal?

I cited the above scriptures not to show you HOW we can BECOME the "righteousness of God", but to tell how the righteousness of God is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH.

INCQUISITOR:

You say the scriptures you cited tell us "how the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith." Then you should know WHAT the righteousness of God is that is revealed from faith to faith. Otherwise, your citing these scriptures is of NO help to anyone.

Me:

And yes I do INCquitor. It is what is revealed in the faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. and of the prophets, and most especially and fully, in the faith of Jesus Christ.

How about you, do you not see the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, at least, in the scriptures I cited? I guess not.

You teach what you think is the righteousness of God is. Is this righteousness of God that you teach is what you've seen from faith to faith? For regarding the righteousness of God, scriptures say is REVEALED from faith to faith? If it is not based on that, then it is based on something else, which I would say is on your own thinking and wisdom.

INCQUISITOR:

You haven’t told us WHAT the “righteousness of God” is that you say is “revealed in the faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc., and of the prophets, and, as you say, most especially and fully, in the faith of Jesus Christ.”

You have not told us yet, what you say you see as the “righteousness of God” as revealed from faith to faith.

For the sake of your followers, why don’t you simply admit that you are IGNORANT of the “righteousness of God” so we can help them choose the right way to be saved?

Me:

I admit that I am ignorant of INQuisitor's doctrine about the righteousness of God.

I am no teacher INCquistor, nor claim to be one, and so, no followers. I am just one who believes in God, in God who is and as is revealed in the Bible.
------------------------------------
You said "Apostle Paul wrote that "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become God's righteousness in him (in Christ)" (2 Cor. 5:21)."

..that we might become God's righteousness in Christ. Becoming God's righteousness is different from what the righteousness of God is. Anyway, let me comment on the matter of how we might become God's righteousness in Christ. The verse clearly said "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us". This is how we might become God's righteousness in Christ. It is good and important to note that it is God who acted here, not anyone else. So, our becoming God's righteousness in Christ is the work of God, not ours. And interestingly, the verse clearly speaks of Christ this way, "him who knew no sin". There is then no doubt that Jesus is without sin and have committed no sin, just like a spotless sacrificial lamb that is offered for the atonement of sins in relation to the law of Moses.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, "becoming the righteousness of God" is different from "what God's righteousness is." Anybody should know that. The question is, how can one "become the righteousness of God" if one is IGNORANT of what God's righteousness is?

You say, "The verse clearly said "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us". This is how we might become God's righteousness in Christ." How can you say that when you don't even know what God's righteousness is? What has God's righteousness got to do with God making Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin for us?

I can only imagine how confused you must be concerning the epistles of Paul.

Me:

As I have shown in my post in the other segment above, the righteousness of God according to you is coming not from what can be seen from faith to faith, where the righteousness of God is seen as it is revealed from faith to faith, but is coming from your own thinking and wisdom. If scriptures say that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, where would you expect one to go and see and know of the righteousness of God?

Do you not know that scriptures says something like this:

But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

What is the faith that is referred to here that is said to be afterward revealed? Obviously it is not speaking of the faith that has been already revealed such as that of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the prophets. It is the faith of Jesus Christ that Paul is talking about here.

So, having established that, and that Jesus, having done ALL that He did and not only SOME, as did the others I mentioned above, by faith, we can look at Jesus and see in full, the righteousness of God. So, we see that Jesus Christ has become the righteousness of God.

How can one "become the righteousness of God", you asked. By having faith, faith as that which is not only revealed and seen and is of Abraham, but even ,as that faith of Jesus Christ which was revealed in the last days, some 2000 years ago.

What has God's righteousness got to do with God making Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin for us, you asked. It has nothing to do with that, but it has everything to do with the matter of forgiving man his sins, that man might be cleansed of all filth, that is sin, and being clean, they then may and could be reconciled to God. That is what I'm saying in the part that you have made a separate segment below. With that and going further, man then might become the righteousness of God, and that, in Christ.

Now, let me say why I said regarding 2 Cor.5:21, "It is good and important to note that it is God who acted here, not anyone else. So, our becoming God's righteousness in Christ is the work of God, not ours". This is simply to remind us that our becoming God's righteousness in Christ is the work of God, not ours.

And let me say why I said regarding 2 Cor.5:21, "And interestingly, the verse clearly speaks of Christ this way, "him who knew no sin". There is then no doubt that Jesus is without sin and have committed no sin, just like a spotless sacrificial lamb that is offered for the atonement of sins in relation to the law of Moses". This is simply to remind us that Jesus never sinned throughout His entire life, for if not, then scriptures could not have spoken of Jesus as one who knew no sin. And that then, Jesus is rightfully declared by the prophet John, as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

INCQUISITOR:

I believe you have no idea what "righteousness" means. Until you do, everything you say above is "profane and idle babblings," if I may borrow apostle Paul's words written in 2 Tim. 2:15).

Me:

No one is stopping you to believe what you want INCquisitor. So, do as you please.

And I too will say, until you see the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, what you say about it is what is "profane and idle babblings".

Apparently, what I have posted above, there is none of it that you can properly refute.

INCQUISITOR:

Until you tell us WHAT you see as the “righteousness of God” revealed from faith to faith, you and your followers CANNOT become the righteousness of God in Christ.

Me:

I'll request you to look at Jesus.

The Father said "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” This happened during His baptism. Why even at this point, when Jesus have not yet started His ministry, God said He is well pleased with him? Of course this could only be in connection to Jesus' relationship with God. And looking at this relationship, with regards then to his life on earth at that point, in all that he have done, that it have pleased God, that is so because of faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

In all the things that Jesus ever did, was all in,through,out, by, and from faith, reveals the righteousness of God. So, if you want to see and know the righteousness of God, know all what Jesus ever did.
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Now, we know that God had made this of His Son Jesus Christ on His own will and because of His love for us. But we know that God hates sin and He is holy. So, if He reconciles us to Himself, we must be cleansed from sin. Another matter is that man is weak, because of the flesh, so that man is easily tempted in falling into sin. And so He had done this, for only by the sacrifice of Christ, as being the lamb of God, by being sin for us, as payment for the penalty of sin, can man be cleansed of his sins. This then made it possible for man to be reconciled to God.

INCQUISITOR:

Is this what the Bible teaches about reconciling sinners to God? Please show scriptures.

Me:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

I believe you know what it means that Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

INCQUISITOR:

That is easy. It's like saying, "Joe is the sanitation man who takes away the garbage from your street." But do you know HOW Joe takes away the garbage from your street? Do you know what time the sanitation man takes away your garbage?

Most people I talk to know what it means that Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins o the world." But none of these people I talk to know HOW Jesus takes away the sins of the world. None of these people know what man must DO for Christ to take away his sins.

Me:

Don't you know what it means that Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? Can you tell me, what to you that means?

Here's another truth concerning this matter of Jesus being the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

1 Peter 1:18-19 [CAPS MINE]
18 knowing that you were not REDEEMED with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, AS A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT.

Jesus Christ has given Himself for us, an OFFERING and a SACRIFICE to God.

INCQUISITOR:

You say, “Jesus Christ has given Himself for us, an OFFERING and a SACRIFICE to God.” Are you sure this letter is addressed to you too?

Peter addressed this letter to the “…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of he blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:1).

Apostle Paul wrote that it is the church that Christ built (Mt. 16:18) that Christ purchased with his blood (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25). Apostle Paul also wrote that Christ “reconciled both Jews and Greeks to God in one body through the cross” (Eph. 2:16).

Moreover, apostle Paul wrote: “giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us (faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse – Eph. 1: 1) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered US from the power of darkness and conveyed US into the kingdom of the son of His love, IN WHOM we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins” (ol. 1:12-14).

Please note that the people whom Peter and Paul were talking to were members of the church that Christ built 2000 years ago. Note too that these people have only one God, the Father and only one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Co. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6).

These people for whom Christ shed his blood as sacrificial lamb were NOT Trinitarians and have Christ as their only one Lord.

Me:

Never mind if you think that the scripture “Jesus Christ has given Himself for us, an OFFERING and a SACRIFICE to God.” is not for me. It's not for you to judge anyway. Quit the deviation and address the issue.

Don't you know what it means that Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? Can you tell me, what to you that means?
---------------------------------
How about the matter of the weakness of the flesh? If we continue to be sinners and be the same creature we were, after having been cleansed from sin, what would that make of God? Certainly, we won't become the righteousness of God. So, this as well was taken cared of by God in Christ, so that we might become God's righteousness in him. For if any man be in Christ, God have made him a new creature, as having been born again, and having given him His Spirit that gives him the power to overcome sin. As such, by all of this that God have done in Christ, is how we might become the righteousness of God in Christ.

INCQUISITOR:

What you say means nothing unless you tell us the righteousness of God. How can one become the righteousness of God by Christ's dying as sacrificial lamb for sinners?

Me:

See what I've written about this in the other segments above.

INCQUISITOR:

I suggest you meditate on the meaning of "righteousness" as it relates to God. Otherwise, what you are saying is "profane and idle babblings."

Me:

I already have. It's high time you do the meditation, so that you would not be found of just making profane and idle babblings about what the "righteousness of God" is. I suggest you start meditating on the following verse:

Romans 1:17 [CAPS MINE]
17 For in it the righteousness of God IS REVEALED from FAITH to FAITH; as it is written, “The just shall LIVE BY FAITH.”

INCQUISITOR:

At last, I realize that you truly DON’T understand what apostle Paul is trying to say. That’s the reason why you keep saying that “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.”

In Romans 1:16, Apostle Paul writes that the “gospel of Christ” is God’s power unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jews first and also for the Greek.

WHY is the “gospel of Christ” God’s power unto salvation for everyone who believes?

Apostle Paul’s answer is found in Romans 1:17. Paul says, “FOR (because) IN IT (the gospel of Christ), the righteousness of God is revealed…”

Now, WHAT is the “righteousness of God” that is revealed by the gospel of Christ?

If the “gospel” you preach does NOT reveal the “righteousness of God,” then it is NOT the true gospel of Christ and is NOT God’s power unto salvation for everyone who believes.

Me:

It's Romans 1:17 that keeps on saying to you that “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.”, not me INCquisitor. And you apparently don't understand what it means.

The phrase "For IN it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" does not mean that the “righteousness of God” is revealed BY the gospel, but rather means that IN the gospel, the “righteousness of God” is revealed from faith to faith.

Paul went on to say that what he said, that is, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" is consistent with what the prophets say, that “The just shall live by faith.” It is wise for you to study what that means.

You mentioned Romans 1:16, and said "Apostle Paul writes that the “gospel of Christ” is God’s power unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jews first and also for the Greek."

"For everyone who believes", it says. In your understanding, the "everyone", who do you say this refers to?

 
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  1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on May 7, 2017, 10:40 AM
    1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 20, 2017, 3:50 AM
     
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