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Re: A new Christ?

June 1 2017 at 1:21 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Re: A new Christ?

 
Isaiah 53 is a prophecy spoken of Christ, and clearly spoke of him as to bear our iniquities, as an offering. And this goes well with the clear testimony about Jesus, as being the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

INCQUISITOR:

I don't think apostle Paul had Isaiah 53:3-7 in mind when he said "Christ died for OUR sins ACCORDING to the Scriptures." The death of Christ FOR OUR SINS did not have to be "IN COMPLIANE with" what is written in Isaiah 53:3-7.

Me:

So we differ as to what in scriptures Paul refer to. You want to think that it's not Isaiah 53:3-7. Don't you believe this prophecy spoken of Christ by Isaiah? Don't you also do not see this in that Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Apparently not.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, we differ as to what scriptures Paul was referring to in 1 Cor. 5:3. You have no idea what the gospel of Christ is all about.

Paul was talking about the "gospel" that he received, and the "gospel" is this: "that Christ died FOR OUR SINS according to (in compliance with) the Scriptures." This is where, in the "gospel," the "righteousness of God is revealed" (Rom. 1:17). The "righteousness" or "justice" of God is that "every man shall be put to death for his own sin?" (Deut. 24:16). In other words, "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezek. 18:20).

Me:

You said "You have no idea what the gospel of Christ is all about." Anyone can say that you as well. And consider that as the obvious.

So you insist of making "according to the scriptures" to mean "in compliance with scriptures". And the reason is obvious, that si to somehow give ground to your doctrine. The Greek word translated as "according to" is "kata" which does not mean here to be "in compliance with", but to be "according to".

If we say "according to the gospel of Matthew" for instance, we can't mean the same thing when we say "in compliance with the gospel of Matthew". The phrase "according to the scriptures" is and means differently to the phrase "in compliance with scriptures". So, sorry to say, it is just not what you want it to be, or want to make it out to be.

INCQUISITOR:

"According to the Scriptures" doesn't mean "in compliance with the Scriptures" ONLY when there is nothing to comply with nor obey like Isaiah 53:3-7. However, when there are things to comply with in the Scriptures cited like Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, "according to the Scriptures" means the same as "in compliance with the Scriptures."

For instance, in Mt. 17:5, Matthew wrote, "While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased. HEAR HIM!"

My saying, "I HEAR Jesus ACCORDING TO Mt. 17:5," means the same as my saying, "I HEAR Jesus "IN COMPLIANCE with Mt. 17:5" Otherwise, what good would it do me if I cite Mt. 17:5 and NOT listen to Jesus?

Me:

But your point just does not apply in this case at hand. It is Paul who said "according to the Scriptures". If Paul meant, like in your example, he would do properly and correctly as you and I would, by saying "in compliance with Scriptures". So, to make the phrase "according to the Scriptures" in 1 Corinthians 15:3 to be "in compliance with Scriptures" instead, would really change altogether what Paul meant to say.

1 Corinthians 15:3
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Corinthians 15:3
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins in compliance with Scriptures,

INCQUISITOR:

My point applies in this case whether apostle Paul was referring to Isaiah 53:3-7 or Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Apostle Paul did not specify which Scriptures he was referring to when he wrote, "Christ died for OUR dins according to the Scriptures." Thus, depending on from whom we first received the gospel of Christ, we would look for Scriptures that we were taught would apply.

If apostle Paul were referring to Isaiah 53:3-7, he would simply be pointing to a prophesy about Christ suffering for us without any mention of God's righteousness or justice concerning sin and sinners.

Apostle Paul wrote that the "gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation for everyone who believes...FOR IN IT, the righteousness of God is REVEALED..." (Rom. 1:16-17).

The "gospel" that apostle Paul received, "that Christ died FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3) definitely REVEALED the righteousness of God. Otherwise, the gospel that apostle Paul received would not be God's power unto salvation for everyone who believes.

Isaiah 53:3-7 does NOT reveal to us the "righteousness of God." Thus, there is no way that apostle Paul was talking about Isaiah 63:3-7 when he aid, "Christ died FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3).

Me:

Firstly, Isa.53 is not only a prophecy about Christ suffering for us, but of dying for us, bearing our iniquities, being an offering for sin. Has not Christ given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God (Eph.5:2), and that for sin (Heb.10:12)? In fact John the baptist declared of Jesus "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!". And this, this is spoken of Jesus Christ, not of some different "new Christ" that is Jesus Christ and the church, which is not really a natural physical man.

INCQUISITOR:

"US" refers to the saints who are in Ephesus (Eph. 1:1) who are all MEMBERS of the "body or the church that Christ built. Eph. 1:22-23 tells us that Christ is the head of the church, HIS body." Col. 1:18 tells us that Christ is the HEAD of the BODY, the CHURCH."

Eph. 5:23 tells us that "Christ is the HEAD of the Church and he is the SAVIOR of the BODY." Eph. 5:25 tells us that "Christ GAVE HIS LIFE for the CHURCH."

Therefore, "US" does NOT refer to NON-MEMBERS of the church that Christ built.

Jesus Christ AND the church is the "one new man" which is NOT a natural physical man but a spiritual man that FULFILLS the "righteous requirement of the law" (Rom. 8:4) written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

The "US" in Eph. 1:1 refers to them who are Christians then in Ephesus, and applies also to those in Rome, in Corinth, in Thessalonica, in Jerusalem, in Philippi, in Galatia, in Macedonia, etc, and in practically all places where there are Christians, and to all else who still may presently be unbelievers then but who later came to repentance and faith on Christ, and to all else who will repent and believe on Christ, after them, today, and in the future. In Isaiah 53:6, the "us" there refers to not only those in Jerusalem, but to all. And the time that God laid the iniquities of all to Christ, was during the time that God has made of Jesus, an offering for sin, on the cross. As scriptures have it, "that while we were STILL sinners, Christ died for us".

The new man you are talking about is the new person ~ new self ~ of the believing Jew or Gentile, that is, the Christian, and not what you make it out to be, Christ and the church. Christ and the church has been spoken in various metaphors, such as of husband and wife, of shepherd and flock, of head and body, of vine and branches, etc. But that is the Christ and the church ~ not Christ. And the gospel that the apostles preached is Jesus Christ, not really of something else. What the apostles later on said about the church is not the gospel, for the gospel refers to God, while the church refers to man. The gospel is about the Savior, not about the sinners.
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Now, you argue using Rom.1:16-17, yet you seem to leave out the last portion which tells us how in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed, which is from faith to faith. It is not in any other that the righteousness of God is revealed, but is revealed from faith to faith.

INCQUISITOR:

You MISUNDERSTAND Rom. 1:16-17. Apostle Paul is saying that the "gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation for everyone who believes."

Q. Why is the "gospel of Christ" God's power unto salvation for everyone ho believes?
A. Because (FOR) IN IT (in the gospel), the "righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith." This means that the "righteousness of God" is revealed IN THE GOSPEL of Christ from faith to faith.

Until now, you haven't told us what the "righteousness of God" is that is revealed to you from faith to faith.

Me:

The "righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. This means that the "righteousness of God" that is IN THE GOSPEL of Christ is revealed from faith to faith.

Go to my past posts where I have shown you what the "righteousness of God" is as revealed from faith to faith. The matter is, you just keep ignoring it and just insist that it is not, without the credit of refuting it.
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You speak of the "righteousness of God" as in His compliance with the law. If I can show you scriptures that speaks of the "righteousness of God" apart from the law, would you accept that your take of what the "righteousness of God" is, is wrong?

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul asks, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law" (Rom. 3:31).

Me:

I repeat. You speak of the "righteousness of God" as in His compliance with the law.

If I can show you scriptures that speaks of the "righteousness of God" apart from the law, would you accept that your take of what the "righteousness of God" is, is wrong?
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While Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 which are scriptures as well, they are laws given to Israel. They are not prophecies, nor are a shadow or type, of the death of Christ on the cross.

INCQUISITOR:

These Scriptures are more likely what apostle Paul had in mind. Christ died FOR OUR sins "according to the Scriptures" means that Christ died FOR OUR sins "IN COMPLIANCE with" the "righteousness (justice or law) of God" written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Prophecies are fulfilled - NOT complied with.

Me:

"are more likely" says what it is that you think "according to the Scriptures" means. What scriptures says of the death of Jesus Christ is in connection to him bearing our iniquities is the fulfillment of the prophecy spoken of Christ by Isaiah.

INCQUISITOR:

As I said, Paul is talking about the "gospel" he received. And the "gospel' is this: "That Christ died for OUR sins according to (in compliance with) the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about the sufferings of Christ but does not reveal the "righteousness" or "justice" of God that is supposed to be "revealed in the gospel" (Rom. 1:17).

Me:

No, INCquistor. Isaiah is not just a prophecy about the sufferings of Christ. Read properly and with an open understanding. This prophesy is about Christ and His suffering and death, being the lamb of God, as a sacrifice for the sin of the world. As the sacrificial lamb, Christ bore our sins ~ He died for our sins.

INCQUISITOR:

If Isaiah 53:3-7 is the "gospel" that Paul received, what relation does this "gospel" have with the other epistles of Paul concerning the church as Christ's body and for whom Christ gave his life?

Me:

Scriptures about the church is not about the gospel of Christ that the apostles preached. Scriptures about the church is for the believers who have heard and received the gospel of Christ. Scriptures about the gospel of Christ is to be read and preached to the unbelievers, that in hearing the gospel of Christ that the apostles preached, they may receive and believe, and call upon the Lord.

INCQUISITOR:

One of the very first things that Christ did was to build his church (Matt. 16:18). He started building his church the moment he made his first two apostles follow him.

What you say proves that you have not heard the TRUE gospel of Christ. The church that Christ built is an integral part of God's plan of salvation. Thus, preaching of the church, which is the kingdom of the love of His son (Col. 1:12-13), is an important part of the gospel of Christ. The church is the ONLY way by which Christ could die FOR OUR SINS without violating God's righteousness or justice concerning sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

That's what you preach, a "new Christ" who died for his body, the sinless head part dying for the sins of the body part, which is not the Christ that the apostles preached as the one who died for our sins, as an offering and sacrifice for sin, the lamb of God.

INCQUISITOR:

That's the ONLY way for Christ to DIE for the sins of OTHERS without violating God's law written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

Only way perhaps, according to you, and your own reasoning. And I don't know why you can't accept the way of God, who in His wisdom, made Jesus the Lamb of God who will take away the sin of the world. His death is as a sacrificial lamb offering whereby the sins of the people are atoned for.
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You speak of the law in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, being fulfilled by Christ. That is far from even being applicable to the death of Christ. These laws says that "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.", and that "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers, that a person shall be put to death for his own sin".

The bottom line of these laws is that a person shall be put to death for his own sin. You sinned, I sinned. According to these laws, we, individually, will be put to death, for our own sin. That our fathers shall not bear the guilt of our sins, nor they be put to death in our stead. Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws. He can't. Firstly, Jesus is not our father nor he is our son. And even if he is, these laws do not allow him to die for us.

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 is correct. Nobody can NORMALLY die for the sins of others - not even Jesus.
And yes, Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws NORMALLY.

However, Jesus said, "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is finished" (Mt. 5:17-18). Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law and indeed "Christ died FOR OUR sins according to (in compliance with) the Scriptures written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

It's not that's it's the normal way or not. As I pointed out, Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 are far from even being applicable to the death of Christ. For as these laws says, "the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself", not upon anyone other than himself. What Jesus fulfilled with regards his dying for our sins is the prophecy spoken of Christ by Isaiah, he being the lamb of God.

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul said, "Christ died FOR OUR sins according to the Scriptures." Scriptures say, "every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut. 24:16). In other words, "the sin that sins, I shall die" (Ezek. 18:20).

Christ died FOR OUR sins ACCORDING TO (in compliance with) these Scriptures." While it is true that Christ died FOR OUR sins as prophesied by Isaiah, the question is HOW did Christ die FOR OUR sins ACCORDING to (IN COMPLIANCE with) the Scriptures written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

If you don't refute and say even that it is true that Christ died FOR OUR sins as prophesied by Isaiah, then why do you keep insisting your doctrine which scriptures says nothing about and forcing Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 to apply when they do not, when all you have to do is hear what Isaiah is saying how he suffered, died, and was buried? According to Isaiah, with regards to his death, that Christ poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many. And still on this, Isaiah said that it pleased God to bruise Him, and that God has put Him to grief, and made His soul an offering for sin.

INCQUISITOR:

I hear what Isaiah is saying, and all of this is true, but who says Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 do not apply? These are God's words too.

According to God's law, Jesus was not supposed to die for the sins of others. He was supposed to die for his OWN sin only. But Apostle Paul says "Christ died for OUR sins, ACCORDING TO the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3).

HOW was Christ able to "die for OUR sins" without violating God's law on sin and sinners written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20?

What good is it to know the sufferings of Christ and dying for OUR sins as a sacrificial lamb (Isaiah 53:3-7), if we are "IGNORANT of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish our own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:3)?

Me:

Yes, Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 are God's words too. No argument on that.

That's right, Jesus was not supposed to die for the sins of others, in compliance with Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. And we can't work around that law. These laws are plain and simple ~ a person shall be put to death for his OWN sin. So, this is clearly not what Paul was referring to. In contrast Isa. 53 clearly applies and is fulfilled in Christ, to what Paul said as first of all that which he received concerning the gospel, that Christ died for our sins.

You see, there are many laws besides Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. These laws, like the two were given to apply where they are applicable. And these two applies not for forgiveness of sin nor applies for salvation, but precisely for the certainty of rendering and imposing the penalty due to the guilty person and not to anyone else. There are laws given by God that applies for forgiveness of sin. It is by way of offering a sacrifice of atonement. And this is how Christ was able to atone for the sin of the world. Being the lamb of God, the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus was not supposed to die for the sin of others in compliance with Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. This is more reason for apostle Paul to refer to these two laws to explain HOW Christ died FOR OUR SINS despite God's command that "everyone shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut. 24:16) and "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezek. 18:20).

As you say, there is no working around these laws. There has to be some way for Christ to die FOR OUR SINS without violating God's laws written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. And this is what the gospel of Christ is all about.

Me:

And yes God sure did find a way. He laid on Christ the iniquity of us all and offered him as sacrificial lamb for the atonement of sin. That was what God did in His wisdom. The type of this is that of Abraham, the father, offering his one and only begotten son Isaac, as an offering.

INCQUISITOR:

You are telling me that God VIOLATED His own law written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, aren't you?

You are also telling me that Christ BUILT is church for NO reason at all, aren't you?

Me:

Of course NOT.

And again, of course NOT.
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Now, I understand that you make the church and Christ into an imaginary man, Christ being the head part and the church being the body part. But be that as it may, the man that they become is not wholly Christ, but is him and the church. So, this imaginary man could not be Christ, as you want it to be.


INCQUISITOR:

If Christ is the "HEAD of the church, and the church is his BODY" (Eph. 1:22-23), then Christ and the church is the "one new man" that apostle Paul was talking about in Ephesians 2:15-16. This enabled Christ to fulfill God's law or righteousness written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

This is also HOW "the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in disciples of Christ" (Rom. 8:4). This is also HOW Christ was made sin for disciples of Christ that they might become the righteousness of God in Christ" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Apostle Paul wrote that "Christ is the head of the church; and he is the savior of the body" (Eph. 5:23). Apostle Paul also wrote that "Christ loved the church and gave himself FOR HER" (Eph. 5:25).

That's why apostle Paul wrote that Christ PURCHASED his church with his blood (Acts 20:28).

Me:

The new man you make of, even is not Christ, but is Christ and the church.

INCQUISITOR:

That's true. The "new man" is Christ and the church. Christ and the church is the new Christ. "And he (Christ) is the HEAD of the BODY, the church" (Col. 1:18). The church is Christ's "body" (Eph. 1:22-23).

When Paul said, "Christ died FOR OUR sins, he was talking to members of the "church of God which is in Corinth" (1 Cor. 15:2). These are members of "HIS body" (1 Cor. 12:14). Christ died FOR the sins of his body, or his OWN sins ACCORDING to or IN COMPLIANCE with the Scriptures written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

The new Christ? There we have it. A different Christ is what you preach.

The Christ that the apostles preached is Jesus who suffered and died for our sins, not a new Christ who is not Jesus (old Christ?), but is the Christ and the church.

INCQUISITOR:

I understand perfectly how you think. The Bible says, the gospel of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Me:

That's right. And the "gospel of Christ" is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. Needless to say the "gospel of the new Christ" is not the gospel of Christ that the apostles preached, and so is not the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes it.

2 Corinthians 11:3-5
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[a] that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

INCQUISITOR:

The gospel of Christ concerns the "new Christ" which made it possible for Christ to die FOR OUR SINS according to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

When the Bible says, "one is IN CHRIST," that means that one is in the "new Christ" or "inside the body of Christ," - the church that Christ built.

Me:

The scriptures and the gospel preach of Christ, who is Jesus, him who was born of the virgin Mary, who was conceived by the HS. It does not preach about a "new Christ". There is only one Christ, who is Jesus. No old Christ, no new Christ.

INCQUISITOR:

Apostle Paul preached the gospel that he received (1 Cor. 15:3). It is the "gospel of Christ" that the apostles preached. "Gospel" means "message." Christ preached a "message" regarding God's PLAN of saving people from their sins.

Obviously, you have been listening to and preaching a false gospel of Christ.

Me:

I am reading and listening to scriptures. And it seems that you have been reading your scriptures and have been listening to your own logic and and reasoning.

The scriptures speaks of the gospel of Christ, who is Jesus, him who was born of the virgin Mary, who was conceived by the HS, and not of the gospel of a "new Christ", which you preach. I'd give you the credit as the only one I heard of preaching this gospel of a "new Christ", Jesus as head part and church as body part. Nonetheless, as it is, it is something new, that came from the mind of the self proclaimed commissioned disciple of Christ in the last days. If it's Christ AND something else, then it's a different gospel.
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And finally, no scriptures prophesy of this nor there is a testimony in the NT about this.

INCQUISITOR:

This is the "mystery of Christ" (Eph. 3:4), "which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" (Eph. 3:5). "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel.

Me:

Well.....

 
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Responses

  1. Re: A new Christ? - INCquisitor on Jun 3, 2017, 6:35 AM
    1. Re: A new Christ? - Michael on Jun 3, 2017, 9:44 AM
      1. Re: A new Christ? - INCquisitor on Jun 3, 2017, 8:04 PM
        1. Re: A new Christ? - Michael on Jun 7, 2017, 7:21 AM
          1. Re: A new Christ? - INCquisitor on Jun 11, 2017, 7:00 AM
     
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