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The Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ) Doctrines

The intention of this board is to discuss the teachings of the Iglesia Ni Cristo. The rules are: A) must respect others, B) no profanity, C) no name calling, D) no ANONYMOUS posting, and E) must post in English. Messages that contain profane languages or insulting will be deleted. What can be posted? You may post Church doctrines or questions about the doctrines but not questions about individual or member's deed/practice. As host/administrator, I will remain neutral. This means -I will not comment on any post. I will read the post and then make a judgement whether or not it violates any rule. If it does, it will be removed. Lastly, I'm an X-INC.
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  1. Untitled View Thread - year2027 on Mar 29, 2013, 9:55 AM
  2.  
  3. Mr. Cessor misunderstands 1 Peter 3:18-19. He mistakes quickening for resurrection. View Thread - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 16, 2013, 8:54 PM
    1. He was in the grave, for three days and three nights. - cyrus2013 on Mar 17, 2013, 1:43 PM
    2. Cyrus, which church teaches your theory? - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 4:21 PM
      1. It is the church of the Bible. - cyrus2013 on Mar 17, 2013, 5:05 PM
        1. It is your interpretation Cyrus. Anyway, which is the church of the bible? - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 5:12 PM
          1. Why not present the chronological order of the doctrimal changes from the first century ch - cyrus2013 on Mar 17, 2013, 5:56 PM
            1. Cyrus, no church is infallible on all teachings. - Tomas on Mar 29, 2013, 9:40 AM
          2. Cyrus, read for yourself the "History of the Catholic Church". - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 6:31 PM
            1. So, you can not present the history of doctrinal changes of the RCC? - cyrus2013 on Mar 17, 2013, 6:42 PM
            2. Cyrus, how old are you? Do you still need your mommy to feed you? Grow up. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 7:58 PM
              1. That's an ad hominem attack, that Cyrus needs to grow up. - Tomas on Mar 29, 2013, 9:31 AM
        2. Cyrus, there is only one church of the bible, the one founded by Jesus himself, - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 18, 2013, 1:03 AM
      2. If Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 5:07 PM
        1. You need to study the Annual holidays of God for you to understand this - cyrus2013 on Mar 17, 2013, 6:34 PM
        2. Cyrus, there is no book "Annual Holidays of God". What are you talking about? - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 8:03 PM
          1. So, you have not read Leviticus? - cyrus2013 on Mar 20, 2013, 12:05 PM
      3. Cyrus, didn't you say you belong to the Philadelphia Church? - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 17, 2013, 7:31 PM
        1. Your human composition is like astral body. - cyrus2013 on Mar 20, 2013, 12:10 PM
    3. Voice - you're still trying to tap-dance out of the trap you put yourself in. - Bro. Glenn Cessor on Mar 18, 2013, 10:25 AM
    4. Mr. Cessor continues to ignore the Truth. He ignore bible scholars too. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 19, 2013, 10:00 AM
    5. Let bible scholars and theologians explain "Where was Jesus between his death and - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 20, 2013, 8:21 AM
      1. The problem with all your sources, Voice, is that they conflict with Scripture. - Bro. Glenn Cessor on Mar 21, 2013, 8:29 AM
    6. There is no conflict in the Scripture. Only in your interpretations. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 21, 2013, 3:28 PM
     
  4. Pope Francis washes feet as Jesus did, does the leader of your church also View Thread - Dean 0'Gowan on Mar 28, 2013, 7:51 PM
    1. Jesus commanded only his apostles to wash each other's feet. - Tomas on Mar 29, 2013, 8:57 AM
     
  5. Shroud of Turin may hold clear image picture of Jesus. View Thread - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 29, 2013, 5:18 AM
    1. You preferred to believe a forge image and make yourself believe it's real. - emmanuel on Mar 29, 2013, 8:07 AM
     
  6. what a day i had View Thread - Roy on Mar 27, 2013, 5:12 PM
    1. Past memories are lessons we learn from. - cyrus2013 on Mar 28, 2013, 4:38 AM
      1. Re: Past memories are lessons we learn from. - Roy on Mar 28, 2013, 5:47 AM
        1. Re: Past memories are lessons we learn from. - year2027 on Mar 28, 2013, 7:37 PM
     
  7. I have been away for awhile, are there still any INC members here who... View Thread - Jason on Mar 24, 2013, 7:16 PM
    1. Lord Jesus is not God. - emmanuel on Mar 26, 2013, 1:04 AM
    2. Emmanuel, there is only One Lord, not two. The Lord God says so. - Dean 0'Gowan on Mar 26, 2013, 2:24 AM
      1. God made Jesus LORD and Messiah. You don't accept? - emmanuel on Mar 26, 2013, 12:57 PM
    3. You know why, "The Father and I are one." John 10:30 - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 26, 2013, 4:55 PM
      1. If you think God lied, that is wrong. Bible verse is clear that God made Jesus Lord. - emmanuel on Mar 27, 2013, 1:47 AM
      2. One inherent Lordship of God and one made Lord Jesus Christ - Jim on Mar 27, 2013, 5:08 AM
    4. Are there two Lords or One Lord? If One Lord, then the Father is no longer Lord? - Dean 0'Gowan on Mar 27, 2013, 5:06 PM
      1. Just take it on it's face value! Scripturally! - Jim on Mar 27, 2013, 5:48 PM
    5. So the Holy Spirit is also Lord! There are three Lords then! - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 27, 2013, 7:04 PM
     
  8. I am impressed by the way the Catholics have selected their leader. View Thread - Ed Watson on Mar 14, 2013, 8:20 AM
    1. Jesus Christ is also a servant of the real God. A servant cannot be God. - emmanuel on Mar 14, 2013, 12:09 PM
    2. Emmanuel the bible is clear. Though Jesus is God he took the form of a servant. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 14, 2013, 9:22 PM
      1. "Not My will, but Thine". - Bro. Glenn Cessor on Mar 14, 2013, 9:40 PM
      2. Mr. Cessor, are you listening? Who says Jesus did not die? Only Islam. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 15, 2013, 5:04 AM
        1. Christian Science claims he did not die. Muslims have disputes - Tomas on Mar 15, 2013, 4:58 PM
        2. So...where does the Bible say that Jesus descended into hell? - Bro. Glenn Cessor on Mar 16, 2013, 4:08 PM
        3. 1 Peter 3:18-19 - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 20, 2013, 3:47 PM
          1. That's not an answer. - Bro. Glenn Cessor on Mar 21, 2013, 8:08 AM
        4. Also 1 Peter 4:6 - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 21, 2013, 3:39 PM
          1. But that still demands a conflict in Scripture. - Bro. Glenn Cessor on Mar 22, 2013, 8:31 AM
        5. A person is composed of body and soul. The body dies. The soul is immortal. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 22, 2013, 5:00 PM
          1. Satan;s lie which you are expounding is revealed. - cyrus2013 on Mar 24, 2013, 9:07 AM
          2. Cyrus, you don't believe that the soul is immortal? - Dean 0'Gowan on Mar 26, 2013, 2:38 AM
            1. You have not proven by scriptures. That is man-made doctrine - cyrus2013 on Mar 26, 2013, 1:56 PM
          3. Jesus says the soul cannot be killed. - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 26, 2013, 6:02 PM
            1. So do you think Adam, Eve, Abraham, & David's souls are dead? - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 26, 2013, 6:12 PM
            2. Do not misquote the Lord , Dean. That is blasphemy. - cyrus2013 on Mar 27, 2013, 5:24 AM
          4. Cyrus, even the good thief's body dies, but that day Jesus died, his soul will - Dean 0'Gowan on Mar 27, 2013, 4:58 PM
    3. A jewish lady was in shock - tumpak on Mar 15, 2013, 7:55 AM
     
  9. the illusion of math has we been taught! View Thread - year2027 on Mar 16, 2013, 8:39 AM
    1. Your claim is a scientific theory. - cyrus2013 on Mar 17, 2013, 5:36 PM
     
  10. Diotresphes the Greed of ourself View Thread - Roy on Jan 8, 2013, 2:02 PM
    1. Basically there are two ways of life. - cyrus2013 on Jan 9, 2013, 12:54 PM
      1. Even if God came in the flesh, he did not die, - Tomas on Jan 13, 2013, 5:19 AM
        1. Tom, do not deny His death, or else you sins are not paid for. - cyrus2013 on Jan 15, 2013, 5:32 PM
          1. He was resurrected too. - cyrus2013 on Jan 15, 2013, 5:34 PM
            1. Cyrus, I believe in Christ's death and resurrection, but - Tomas on Jan 20, 2013, 4:08 AM
        2. Jesus is both God and man. God does not die. The human body of Jesus died, - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 15, 2013, 7:24 PM
          1. I am sincere about truth, but Qureshi is not a messenger of God. - emmanuel on Jan 15, 2013, 11:08 PM
          2. No Emmanuel, you are not interested in truth. You are blinded by Felix Manalo. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 16, 2013, 7:19 AM
            1. impossible to be true - emmanuel on Jan 16, 2013, 11:17 AM
          3. Emmanuel, your charge of church apostasy contradicts the promises of Jesus. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 16, 2013, 2:09 PM
            1. Catholics have graven images. - emmanuel on Jan 16, 2013, 9:30 PM
            2. Iglesia ni Cristo has graven image of Felix Manalo. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 16, 2013, 9:46 PM
              1. Catholics worship a fictional face carve images. - emmanuel on Jan 16, 2013, 9:58 PM
            3. God commands the making of images and statues to decorate his house. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 17, 2013, 12:46 AM
              1. God is spirit and has no form or shape. - emmanuel on Jan 17, 2013, 5:41 AM
                1. Jesus is the VISIBLE God (BODY). - Ed Chapman on Feb 3, 2013, 1:25 PM
                  1. If you are not Catholic, what are you then? - emmanuel on Feb 3, 2013, 10:26 PM
                    1. Protestant - Non Denomination - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 3:10 AM
                      1. Protestant without denomination, how was it? - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 3:59 AM
                      2. I attend worship, but I am non denomination. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 4:12 AM
                      3. But the worship service you are attending must be some kind of a religion. - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 4:42 AM
                      4. The religion is Christianity. Hello? I said I am non-denomination. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 5:39 AM
            4. Emmanuel, please answer this: Who does the bible say is the image of the invisible God? - Deab O'Gowan on Jan 17, 2013, 5:56 AM
              1. Christ is the image of the invisible God. - emmanuel on Jan 17, 2013, 10:11 AM
              2. Is the statue of Felix Manalo the image of Felix Manalo? - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 17, 2013, 3:48 PM
                1. Show a verse that Christ used the phrase 'I am God', just like Father(God) did. - emmanuel on Jan 18, 2013, 8:54 PM
                2. who paid for statute? - SPF Swat Boy on Feb 5, 2013, 8:36 AM
              3. Digression, digression. Emmanuel, when did Jesus become holy? - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 18, 2013, 9:11 PM
                1. He's being begotten doesn't make Him God. Christ Himself said who the God is. - emmanuel on Jan 18, 2013, 11:29 PM
              4. Evasion, evasion. Emmanuel evades the truth. When did Jesus become holy? - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 19, 2013, 2:42 AM
                1. Emmanuel cannot answer you Dean - cyrus2013 on Jan 19, 2013, 5:32 AM
                2. I can see that you don't know the answer Emmanuel. You go ahead and ask your minister. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 19, 2013, 7:29 PM
                  1. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. But, He is not God. - emmanuel on Jan 19, 2013, 8:47 PM
                3. You might as well ask, why was Jesus baptized? - Ricky Martan on Feb 4, 2013, 7:22 PM
              5. Emmanuel, when did Jesus become holy? The bible says Jesus is the only begotten God. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 19, 2013, 10:24 PM
                1. Do not exceed to what is written. - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 12:42 AM
                  1. It is not written that Christ is not God or is God. - Tomas on Jan 20, 2013, 4:15 AM
                    1. I am not exceeding. - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 5:48 AM
                      1. Yes, you are by saying Christ is not God. - Tomas on Jan 25, 2013, 12:51 PM
                      2. There is only one God, the Father. - emmanuel on Jan 26, 2013, 10:12 AM
                      3. Yes, the Father is the only true God, but this God might include - Tomas on Feb 1, 2013, 3:17 PM
                      4. Isaiah 9:6 states that the Son is the Father, and God. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 6:48 AM
                      5. The name in Is. 9:6 is simply a long name, not titles - Tomas on Feb 8, 2013, 10:42 AM
                      6. I hate to admit it, but Dean (the Catholic) explained this that Jesus is Jehovah - Ed Chapman on Feb 8, 2013, 10:55 AM
                      7. More evidence that Dean is not infallible. - Tomas on Feb 15, 2013, 3:05 PM
                  2. Emmanuel, Jesus commands to eat his flesh and drink his BLOOD. - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 20, 2013, 9:34 AM
                    1. unclean foods - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 8:45 PM
                      1. You won't die by eating blood. - Tomas on Jan 25, 2013, 1:00 PM
                      2. Re: unclean foods - Nom on Jan 26, 2013, 8:36 AM
                      3. Blood is not food to obedient disciples. - emmanuel on Jan 26, 2013, 9:18 AM
                      4. Re: Blood is not food to obedient disciples. - Nom on Jan 27, 2013, 2:25 AM
                      5. Nom, Romans 14:2 is not about eating everything that is possible - Tomas on Feb 1, 2013, 3:23 PM
                      6. Re: Blood is not food to obedient disciples. - Anonymous on Jan 28, 2013, 1:44 AM
                      7. Blood is not food that must be eaten. However glutton you may be. - emmanuel on Jan 28, 2013, 2:16 AM
                      8. Re: Blood is not food that must be eaten. However glutton you may be. - Nom on Jan 29, 2013, 2:31 AM
                      9. Eating blood was not repealed, what repealed was eating of unclean animals. - emmanuel on Jan 30, 2013, 12:35 AM
                      10. It's the animal unclean or it's our heart? Are you still so dull? - tumpak on Jan 30, 2013, 3:30 PM
                      11. Blood is life and not in the category of being unclean. - emmanuel on Jan 31, 2013, 12:15 AM
                      12. Re: Blood is life and not in the category of being unclean. - Nom on Jan 31, 2013, 5:46 AM
                      13. Re: Eating blood was not repealed, what repealed was eating of unclean animals. - Nom on Jan 31, 2013, 5:43 AM
                      14. You are without understanding. - emmanuel on Jan 31, 2013, 7:51 AM
                      15. Re: You are without understanding. - Nom on Jan 31, 2013, 9:45 PM
                      16. Jewish Christian? Acts 15 is about how not to be like the Judaizers, - Tomas on Feb 1, 2013, 3:27 PM
                      17. Blood must not be eaten however glutton you may be. - emmanuel on Feb 1, 2013, 7:56 PM
                      18. Re: Blood must not be eaten however glutton you may be. - Nom on Feb 2, 2013, 5:19 AM
                      19. Was eating meat prohibited? - emmanuel on Feb 2, 2013, 6:43 AM
                      20. Re: Was eating meat prohibited? - Nom on Feb 3, 2013, 8:26 AM
                      21. I cannot find. You cite the verse. - emmanuel on Feb 3, 2013, 8:46 AM
                      22. Re: I cannot find. You cite the verse. - Nom on Feb 4, 2013, 1:32 AM
                      23. Re: I cannot find. You cite the verse. - Nom on Feb 4, 2013, 1:36 AM
                      24. I observed that also. Maybe someone is not happy in our forum. lol. - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 3:50 AM
                      25. All people there must come in this forum to continue arguing. lol. - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 3:51 AM
                      26. Nom, the strangled animal has blood on its veins. - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 5:09 AM
                    2. Dean...my man...what is this nonsense? - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 9:55 PM
                2. Emmanuel, do you know of any baby that is born holy? - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 20, 2013, 9:08 AM
                  1. Jesus is a Man but never sinned. The Father is the only true God. Christ is Son. - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 9:14 AM
                  2. So Emmanuel, you don't know of any man born holy. Jesus is holy because he inherited - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 20, 2013, 9:46 AM
                    1. His being holy doesn't make Him God. God is spirit. Jesus is not spirit. - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 8:47 PM
                      1. But Jesus is the BODY of the SPIRIT. That is what makes him God. - Ed Chapman on Feb 5, 2013, 10:46 AM
                  3. Emmanuel, if Jesus is only a mere man, why didn't he sin? - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 20, 2013, 9:49 AM
                    1. Christ is not Father. - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 8:30 PM
                  4. Every baby is born holy. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 10:03 PM
          4. Dean, you could be right. And you are right that God did not die. - Tomas on Jan 20, 2013, 4:11 AM
            1. Tomas, Jesus words are very clear. "If you do not believe what I claim to be, you will die - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 20, 2013, 8:46 AM
              1. And what was Jesus claimed? Did He say He is God? Did He say He is the Father? - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 9:16 AM
              2. Emmanuel, the Jews understood what Jesus was claiming. "You, a mere man, claim to be God." - Dean O'Gowan on Jan 20, 2013, 4:17 PM
                1. If He is God, why didn't He used the phrase ' I am God'? - emmanuel on Jan 20, 2013, 8:24 PM
                  1. Re: If He is God, why didn't He used the phrase ' I am God'? - Nom on Jan 25, 2013, 4:56 AM
                    1. You used wrong translation of the verse. - emmanuel on Jan 25, 2013, 7:05 AM
                      1. Re: You used wrong translation of the verse. - Nom on Jan 26, 2013, 8:29 AM
                      2. God is Father, not Son. - emmanuel on Jan 26, 2013, 9:21 AM
                      3. Re: God is Father, not Son. - Nom on Jan 27, 2013, 2:10 AM
                      4. Resurrection for the saved ones. - emmanuel on Jan 27, 2013, 3:12 AM
                      5. Re: Resurrection for the saved ones. - Nom on Jan 27, 2013, 7:04 AM
                      6. in these last days. - emmanuel on Jan 27, 2013, 8:55 AM
                      7. Re: in these last days. - Nom on Jan 28, 2013, 1:56 AM
                      8. Yes. - emmanuel on Jan 28, 2013, 2:18 AM
                      9. Re: Yes. - Nom on Jan 29, 2013, 2:24 AM
                      10. Re: Yes. - Nom on Jan 31, 2013, 5:49 AM
                      11. Have you not read any latest issue of pasugo and you are stuck.. - emmanuel on Jan 31, 2013, 7:52 AM
                      12. I, for one, have read some of your new publications - cyrus2013 on Jan 31, 2013, 12:28 PM
                      13. Only messenger of God has the right to give interpretation. - emmanuel on Feb 1, 2013, 9:12 PM
                      14. I never argue that He is man. As I said, He was man, He appeared as a man. - cyrus2013 on Feb 3, 2013, 2:40 PM
                      15. Re: Have you not read any latest issue of pasugo and you are stuck.. - Nom on Feb 2, 2013, 5:51 AM
                      16. There was actually no error. The error was in your understanding. - emmanuel on Feb 2, 2013, 6:44 AM
                      17. Re: There was actually no error. The error was in your understanding. - Nom on Feb 3, 2013, 8:37 AM
              3. Dean, you are using bad translations of John 8:24. - Tomas on Feb 1, 2013, 3:34 PM
          5. Since Jesus is God, then God died. - Ed Chapman on Feb 3, 2013, 1:18 PM
            1. If God could die, he was not God in the first place... - Ricky Martan on Feb 3, 2013, 9:15 PM
              1. Not True. God died on the cross does NOT MEAN that God was non-existent. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 5:43 AM
                1. God died???? What Christian denomination do you belong, Ed? - Ricky Martan on Feb 4, 2013, 6:58 AM
                  1. I take it that you don't believe that Jesus is God? - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 7:13 AM
                    1. erroneous arithmetic, Ed - Ricky Martan on Feb 4, 2013, 7:30 PM
                      1. Why? Can't you find it? - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 7:37 PM
                      2. If you want, I can show you MORE (three) examples of the use of "I am" - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 7:54 PM
                      3. Did you notice in my last... - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 8:10 PM
            2. How can God die if He is immortal. - emmanuel on Feb 3, 2013, 10:32 PM
              1. But God was Mortal for 33 1/2 Years. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 3:15 AM
                1. The dead and the living exist. What for we exist if we are dead? - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 3:57 AM
                  1. You don't want to exist when you are dead? - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 4:09 AM
                    1. Why would we want to exist if we are dead? - emmanuel on Feb 4, 2013, 5:05 AM
                      1. You are confusing the Body from The Spirit - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 5:35 AM
                  2. I misspoke - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 2:04 PM
                2. CIte verses, Ed, and you have proven your point - Ricky Martan on Feb 4, 2013, 6:59 AM
                  1. Verses? I suggest you STUDY and not just read the Bible. - Ed Chapman on Feb 4, 2013, 7:16 AM
        3. God came in the flesh, in the person of Jesus, so he could die. - Michael on Feb 4, 2013, 6:55 AM
          1. Up for TOMAS - Michael on Feb 6, 2013, 1:22 AM
          2. Michael, God came in the flesh of Jesus, but - Tomas on Feb 8, 2013, 10:54 AM
            1. Re: Michael, God came in the flesh of Jesus, but - Michael on Feb 8, 2013, 4:53 PM
              1. If you are right that God took upon himself the nature - Tomas on Feb 15, 2013, 3:16 PM
                1. Re: If you are right that God took upon himself the nature - Michael on Feb 17, 2013, 12:20 AM
                  1. If Jesus is God, then it would be reasonable that at that time he was not God, - Tomas on Feb 22, 2013, 4:45 PM
                    1. Jesus did not became God. - Michael on Feb 23, 2013, 12:47 PM
                      1. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever regarding his doctrines, - Tomas on Mar 1, 2013, 1:02 PM
                      2. Changes is a part of the human nature, but not in the divine nature, - Michael on Mar 3, 2013, 4:02 AM
                      3. If God did not change his nature, then why would he put on a human - Tomas on Mar 8, 2013, 11:15 AM
                      4. Re: If God did not change his nature, then why would he put on a human - Michael on Mar 9, 2013, 3:39 PM
                      5. It would have made his divine nature human. - Tomas on Mar 15, 2013, 5:54 PM
                      6. Seems like you really don't know the divine nature of God. - Michael on Mar 16, 2013, 2:48 PM
                      7. Tomas, you don't know "hypostatic union." - Dean O'Gowan on Mar 9, 2013, 5:34 PM
                      8. I know about your theory of hypostatic union. - Tomas on Mar 15, 2013, 6:04 PM
     
  11. To all INC members here. Do you believe, View Thread - Tomas on Mar 15, 2013, 6:45 PM
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