For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. John 3:16.
I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:
And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26
Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. John 14:6
Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. John 6:54-55
Jesus offers eternal life to those who believe in him.
If you do not believe, you will die in your sins.
“Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.” John 8:24
"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him."
October 26 2009, 6:56 PM
In Matt 17:5, God the Father endorses his Son Jesus. In modern English He is saying "Listen to him!"
Here are the words of Jesus:
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt 16:18
“And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you.” John 14:16-18
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. / When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. / He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. / All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” John 16:12-15
“Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Matt 28:19 -20
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35
The words of Jesus are very clear. He will build his church on rock and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It cannot be destroyed. It’s Jesus words.
Jesus promises the Spirit of Truth to guide his church forever.
As Paul says: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. “ 1 Tim 3:15
"The pillar and ground of the truth"... Therefore the church of the living God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruptions, superstition, or idolatry.
And before Jesus left for heaven, Jesus commissions his church to go and teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever he has commanded her and finally he promises to be with his church ALL DAYS, even to the end of the world.
If you truly believe in Jesus then you believe that the church founded by Jesus cannot apostatize. It is a contradiction of the words of Jesus. Jesus personally guaranteed that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and he himself promised to be with his church ALL DAYS, even to the end of the world.
If the church of Jesus cannot apostatize, who then commits apostasy?
October 26 2009, 7:01 PM
If the church of Jesus apostatized, then it makes Jesus a liar. But Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is not a liar. Then who commits apostasy?
Apostasy is defined as:
"Abandonment of ONE'S religious faith."
"The total rejection by a baptized person of the Christian faith he once professed."
The Greek word used is "apostasia", and from a Greek dictionary its meaning is:
"a falling away, defection, forsake".
Notice that the definitions apply to individual persons ONLY and not to the entire Church.
First case of apostasy in the Bible
John 6:
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it?
67 After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
Second case of apostasy
2 Tim 4:
9 For Demas hath left me, loving this world, and is gone to Thessalonica:
Great Apostasy of 1520.
The "Great Apostasy":
The meaning is the same as for "apostasy" with the difference being in the numbers of individual apostates.
Now that we know that the entire Church could have not apostatized as detractors charge, and since the "Great Apostasy" has happened already, then who is responsible for this blatant crime against Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church?
There have been many apostates in the Church ever since it was founded. We have not forgotten Magnus, Marcion, Montanus, Severus, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Mani, Arius, Pelagius, Nestorius, Berengarius, Albigensians, Waldensians, and many others. Each of these apostates and heretical movements, caused hundreds and thousands of individuals to leave the Catholic Church.
The "Great Apostasy" therefore would have to be when the largest number of individuals left the Catholic Church, numbers amounting to millions. That event came to pass starting in 1520, when about ten million* participants in the European Protestant revolt left the only Church which Jesus Christ founded. Echo, echo, echo, John 6:66.
It is to be noted that the Catholic Church did not leave them.
Thus, the "Great Apostasy" can only have reference to the tens of thousands of individual sects and the hundreds of millions of Protestants existing today, all of which had their beginnings in the 16th century and who were galvanized by the first Protestant apostate, Martin Luther. The “Great Apostasy” is Protestantism.
Apostasy in the Philippines.
Ex-Catholic Felix Manalo who founded another church in the Philippines and called it “Iglesia ni Cristo” and in 1921 (two years after the Treaty of Versailles) he arrogantly declared himself angel of the east even though he never communicated with the four heads of states which he erroneously called “four angels.”
The prophesy of Jesus is fulfilled. “Many false prophets shall rise and deceive many.“ Matt 24:11 Felix Manalo deceived many Filipino Catholics and they joined him.
What happens to apostates (i.e. those who leave the Catholic Church)
October 26 2009, 7:07 PM
+++APOSTATES ( I.E. THOSE WHO LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH )
The sacred scriptures tell us that those who leave the true church shall not receive eternal life!
"A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man, walketh with a perverse mouth...To such a one his destruction shall presently come, and he shall suddenly be destroyed, and shall no longer have any remedy"---Prov. 6:12,15
"Woe to you, apostate children, saith the Lord, that you would take counsel, and not of me: and would begin a web, and not by my spirit, that you might add sin upon sin."---Is. 30:1
"Thy own wickedness shall reprove thee, and thy apostasy shall rebuke thee. Know thou, and see that it is an evil and a bitter thing for thee, to have left the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not with thee saith the Lord the God of hosts" ---Jer. 2:19
"For you have forgotten God, who brought you up, and you have grieved Jerusalem that nursed you"---Bar 4:8
"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven."---Matt. 10:33
“He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.” ---Luke 10:16
Therefore there is no eternal life for those who joined the church founded by Felix Manalo.
What awaits them is eternal damnation.
Apostates are those who leave the Christian church.
October 29 2009, 4:54 PM
So those who switch from Catholic church to INC, or who switch from INC to Lutheran church, or from Baptist church to Catholic, etc., are not leaving the Christian church, but just switching from one part of the Christian church to another.
But if someone switches from INC to Christian Science, or from Catholic church to Islam, or from Baptist church to the Kimbanguist church, or from Lutheran church to atheism, etc., that is apostasy, switching from the Christian church to a false gospel.
Here is his post:
Jesus know that the first century church would be apostatized because of PERSECUTION, FALSE PROPHET, BETRAYAL and HATE TO ONE ANOTHER. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold (Matt 24:9-12).
Here are actual verses from the bible.
Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
My comments: Matt 24:9-13 does not say anything about apostasy of the first century church. Sure, many Christians were put to death. But as verse 13 says, he that shall persevere to the end will be saved. Many Christians did persevere. In fact Rome under emperor Constantine became converted and tolerated the practice of religion.
Therefore the Church Jesus founded withstood the gates of hell.
Lasenna's post:
Apostle Paul testify this apostasy, saying:
I know that after I leave, some men will come into your group. They will be like vicious wolves, trying to destroy the flock. Also, men from your own group will begin to teach things which are wrong, leading some followers away from the truth (Acts 20:29-30).
Let's look Acts 20:28 too.
28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, keeping in memory, that for three years I ceased not, with tears to admonish every one of you night and day.
As you will notice, Paul talks about the Holy Ghost (now called Holy Spirit) has placed bishops to rule the church of God.
Are there bishops in the Iglesia ni Cristo church founded by Manalo?
None! Therefore the Holy Spirit is not with the Iglesia ni Cristo. The Holy Spirit did not place bishops with the Iglesia ni Cristo of Felix Manalo.
Contrary to the post of Lasenna, Paul did not say that the church Jesus founded will apostatize. He warned that ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. He warned that men will speak of perverse things. Men like Arius, Martin Luther, Felix Manalo did say perverse things. Paul says "Therefore watch!" And to this day, the church continues to watch.
As promised by Jesus, the gates of hell did not prevail against the church.
OK, but bishops like your uncle do not rule your church.
October 29 2009, 4:38 PM
Acts 20:28 says the bishops rule the church. In churches like the Baptists or the Churches of Christ (that were established first in America), the bishops rule the local congregations. I think that is the right meaning. Though in some churches, like Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican, bishops rule regions that can be called dioceses, and I think that's allowed too, though it is not what Paul meant. But in the INC, bishops are under locale ministers, those are under district ministers, and district ministers are ruled by the central administration headed by the executive minister. If I made a small error in this hierarchy, I think I have it approximately correct. Neither the district ministers nor the executive minister are bishops. You have also overseers, and in Greek the word for overseer and bishop is the same word, episkopos. So you are not supposed to distinguish between bishops and overseers. But your overseers are not ruling the church. Verse 28 says the church is ruled by bishops, not ministers. So to follow the Bible, you need to reform your church government. Your ministers should become bishops, and bishops need all to have exactly one wife, according to 1 Timothy. So any unmarried ministers you have need to resign and find a wife first, before being ordained properly. But anyway, other churches have faulty bishops too. Catholics and Orthodox are ruled by bishops, but those are invalid bishops, they are not married. So they need to resign, find a wife, and then be ordained.
Tomas, does your bishop have children? If not then he would be disqualified.
October 29 2009, 6:41 PM
1 Tim 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity.
And Tomas, do you have your head shaven of hair when you enter your church? If hair is covering as you say, then all men in your church should have their hair shaven. As Paul says, "The man indeed ought not to cover his head."
1 Cor 11:6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. 7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man.
Yes, our bishops need to have at least 2 children.
October 29 2009, 11:17 PM
Paul used plural, children, so for a bishop to be ordained, he has to have at least 2 children. And Paul clearly was giving the requirements for ordaining bishops, so that if a child dies, he does not need to resign, he was ordained correctly, at the time of ordination he clearly had 2 children. Likewise if his wife dies after ordination, he is still bishop, he was ordained correctly with one wife. But if he had 2 wives, he cannot be ordained. Only if one wife becomes an unbeliever and leaves him, then he can biblically divorce her, and then he has one wife and he can be ordained. But most denominations are wrong in allowing divorce for adultery. Jesus was explaining the Law of Moses, he would never violate the Law. And after he died, the Law was abolished, and Paul wrote the new law, that divorce is allowed only for unbelieving spouse leaving. Believing spouse leaving does not count.
Concerning your second question, about men not covering their head, Paul made a difference between covering of women and men. For women, hair is their covering. But men do not have to be bald, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 11:14 that just long hair is forbidden to men. That means short hair is allowed, no need to shave the hair. So in men the covering is obviously not hair, but a hat or veil or whatever over the hair. And so if he is wearing a hat, he should quickly remove it before praying, or when prophecy was still possible, before prophesying. That is not a burden. But a woman can have a hat or veil elsewhere, so that would be a burden for her to search for her hat before praying, Paul would not be so unreasonable, she can pray any time, even if she cannot find a hat or veil.
I still have dial-up connection, so when I see a video, I see several seconds, then a long pause, then several seconds, then another pause, it's impossible. I guess I should figure out what to do to switch to DSL or broadband, maybe both are now available in this neighborhood, but I keep postponing it.
Anyway, I don't think they shaved their top of hair while praying, probably much earlier. So as they learned Christianity, they had to let their hair grow, so they would look decent to God, when they convert and start praying.
That's right, we need to see how he brings up at least 2
November 12 2009, 2:51 PM
children. If a child is jailed for being Christian, that is honor to him. But if a child is jailed for some sin, then the child needs to repent and become a good child again, otherwise the man cannot become a bishop.
If his wife divorces him before he is ordained, if she was an unbeliever, he is free to marry a new wife (1 Cor. 7:15), as long as she is Christian, to the best of our knowledge. And only after he remarries, is he eligible to become a bishop. But if she divorces him after he became a bishop, that is no problem, the requirements in 1 Tim. are for ordination, not for remaining a bishop. So likewise if a child of his dies after he was ordained, he can remain bishop.
But if his wife divorces him and she is a believer, then she sins by divorcing him, and the divorce is not recognized by God. Therefore he still has one wife. It does not matter if she thinks she is not his wife any more, what matters is what God recognizes. And Paul did not say the wife has to be obedient, just that the children have to be obedient.
Concerning your thought of ordaining an ignorant man, that is covered by 1 Tim. 3:6, that he cannot be a recent convert. And Christians have a duty to study the religion, read the Bible, so if someone refuses to do that, he is not a good Christian, and so not eligible.
More Lasenna's post. again out of context from a Catholic book
October 29 2009, 1:03 AM
Lasenna posted this out of context: "In the beginning, this was a belief by some, but later on, year 325 AD, at the council of Nicea, declared that Christ is the true God. The Holy Espirit was also declared God at the council of Constantine about 381 AD."
His reference is most probably ETE's reference. ETE lifted this from the Iglesia indoctrination book.
"THUS, FOR EXAMPLE, IT WAS NOT UNTIL 325 A.D., AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA, THAT THE CHURCH DEFINED FOR US THAT IT WAS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT JESUS IS TRULY GOD. IN 381, AT THE COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE, IT WAS DEFINED THAT IT IS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS GOD."
Here below is the full theme that explains the church position. Just as there was the Council of Jerusalem to address church problems, the church opened other councils to address problems of their times.
Discourses on the Apostles’ Creed
By the Rev. Clement H CROCK
P. 205-206
In the course of the centuries, it was but natural that various opinions about certain matters of faith should arise. For, when people begin to talk and think about a certain thing, they also begin to learn more about that thing. Divergence of opinion readily arises. This has also been true in the field of religion from the time when the Apostles first went forth on Pentecost to the present day. Everything that we now hold and believe, was not so clearly defined and understood from the beginning of Christianity. Only in the course of the centuries, when false teachers arose who misinterpreted the true meaning of Christ’s teachings and the Gospels, did the Church come forth and define clearly just what must be done and believed by the faithful.
THUS, FOR EXAMPLE, IT WAS NOT UNTIL 325 A.D., AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA, THAT THE CHURCH DEFINED FOR US THAT IT WAS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT JESUS IS TRULY GOD. IN 381, AT THE COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE, IT WAS DEFINED THAT IT IS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS GOD.
THESE WERE NO NEW DOCTRINES. IT WAS ONLY AFTER THEY WERE BEING DENIED THAT THE CHURCH REAFFIRMED AND MADE CLEAR WHAT HAD BEEN TAUGHT BY CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES.
Twenty times in the history of the Church, when her doctrines were particularly assailed, did she come forth and in solemn Council condemn false teachers and reaffirm what is true and what is false, what is to be believed and what not to be believed. “When false affirmations and developments are a power with men,” says McNabb, “influence can be gained only by true explanations and developments. Not to be driven backward, the Church has to advance. The custodians of Revelation necessarily becomes its interpreter. To keep the deposit, the Church is ever obliged to expound the deposit. The gift of infallibility safeguards the truth from the dangerous forces of its environment, and enables it to realize itself more and more in the various intellectual forms and language of the centuries.
What matters, is that the Bible does not define it as an article
October 29 2009, 4:46 PM
of faith that Jesus is God, nor that the Holy Spirit is God. Articles of faith, properly understood, are doctrines necessary for salvation. And the Bible nowhere says that we need to know for salvation that Jesus is God, nor that the HS is God. And postbiblical councils have no authority to come up with new articles of faith, Paul wrote to us not to go beyond what is written. He meant written in the Bible, not written by any popes or councils after the Bible is finished.
Here are his posts:
"The very Question now is Did Christ failed, when he said: “upon this rock, I will build my church!”? No Christ did not fail as he said,
Mr. Lasenna is right in saying that Christ did not fail. As Jesus says,
1. "Upon this rock, I will build my church."
2. "“And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever."
3. He himself promised to be with his church "ALL DAYS, even to the end of the world."
Jesus was with his church ALL DAYS from the time of the Pentecost in about 33 AD through the centuries, through WWI, through WWII and up to the present time.
Therefore there was no need for Felix Manalo's imitation "church of Christ."
-- Revised Standard
John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Bible scholars agree that the other sheep Jesus was referring to were the gentiles (non Jews).
Felix Manalo claimed that the other sheep were the Filipinos. This is ridiculous thinking.
In about 30 AD, there were only a handful of pygmies (Aetas and Negritoes) in the islands now called Philippines. Why would Jesus think of these pygmies when there are also pygmies in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, the Papua New Guinea, the Fiji islands, etc.?
If Jesus was concerned about those pygmies, he would send one of his apostles there. The farthest the apostles have gone to was India and this was St. Thomas who called Jesus Lord and God.
No Jesus was not thinking of the pygmies. Jesus was thinking of ALL NATIONS, the gentiles. That's why Peter and Paul went to the center of commerce of the world at that time and that was Rome. St. James, bishop of Jerusalem was left to care for the Jews.
Felix Manalo copied the Mormons interpretation of the "other sheep" to mean their nations. The Mormons invented the Moroni Indians as the other sheep. Felix Manalo invented the other sheep as the Filipinos, to prop up the egos of Filipinos to make them believe they are special to Jesus. And idiotic Filipinos enjoyed hearing this Manalo invention.
Paul prophesied it in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
"This is in harmony in the book of Isaiah about the son’s and daughter’s of God in the ENDS of the earth.
"Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, and gather you from the west; I will say to the north, `Give them up!' And to the south, `Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth (nkjv)
“From the FAR EAST will I bring your offspring, and from the far west I will gather you.” (Isa. 43:5, Moffatt Translation )"
Again, this is another man-made doctrine of Felix Manalo. Bible scholars agree that the Jews were forced in a diaspora or exile around the world. The Jews were forced to flee from Jerusalem as Jesus prophesied Jerusalem would be destroyed.
Isaiah 43 is about the diaspora of the Jews, not Filipinos.
2 Tim 4:3-4 "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
You are very correct, except in stating the first century church went only up to India.
October 29 2009, 11:43 PM
Maybe no apostle went beyond India, but other Christian missionaries went throuout the world, see Mark 16:20, Rom. 1:8, 1 Thess. 1:8, and Col. 1:23 (where by 'creature' Paul meant human creature, since animals, plants, minerals do not need the gospel). Therefore missionaries visited even all the inhabited islands of the Philippines. Also you happen to be wrong about only Aetas and negritos living in Philippines in the first century, though that issue is not relevant for the Bible, I am saying it just for accuracy. Both archaeology and linguistics show that first Austronesians came to Philippines from Taiwan about 5000 years ago. At that time the aborigines of Philippines of course spoke non-Austronesian languages, but then gradually they became linguistically assimilated, so now they speak Austronesian languages, and their original languages have not survived, unlike Andaman Islands, or New Guinea. So now all Philippine languages are Austronesian, except a Spanish creole is dying out, not dead yet, on Mindanao. The Austronesian family used to be called Malayo-Polynesian, but later linguists came to a concensus that the term Austronesian is better.
Here are his posts:
"The very Question now is Did Christ failed, when he said: “upon this rock, I will build my church!”? No Christ did not fail as he said,
Mr. Lasenna is right in saying that Christ did not fail. As Jesus says,
1. "Upon this rock, I will build my church."
2. "“And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever."
3. He himself promised to be with his church "ALL DAYS, even to the end of the world."
Jesus was with his church ALL DAYS from the time of the Pentecost in about 33 AD through the centuries, through WWI, through WWII and up to the present time.
Therefore there was no need for Felix Manalo's imitation "church of Christ."
-- Revised Standard
John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Bible scholars agree that the other sheep Jesus was referring to were the gentiles (non Jews).
A. ok
Felix Manalo claimed that the other sheep were the Filipinos. This is ridiculous thinking.
A. ?
In about 30 AD, there were only a handful of pygmies (Aetas and Negritoes) in the islands now called Philippines. Why would Jesus think of these pygmies when there are also pygmies in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, the Papua New Guinea, the Fiji islands, etc.?
If Jesus was concerned about those pygmies, he would send one of his apostles there. The farthest the apostles have gone to was India and this was St. Thomas who called Jesus Lord and God.
No Jesus was not thinking of the pygmies. Jesus was thinking of ALL NATIONS, the gentiles. That's why Peter and Paul went to the center of commerce of the world at that time and that was Rome. St. James, bishop of Jerusalem was left to care for the Jews.
A. Trully, Jesus was thinking of ALL NATIONS, the gentiles. Anyway, these you call pigmies are gentiles or not gentiles? It is true that Jesus was not thinking of that pigmies, when he said, “I have othe sheep”, this is in harmony of time given in the prophecy, ENDS of the earth.
B. From 30 AD – 100 AD, what event happen to the church?
C. To proclaim the gospel in Europe how many century needed? Think of it by now?
Felix Manalo copied the Mormons interpretation of the "other sheep" to mean their nations. The Mormons invented the Moroni Indians as the other sheep. Felix Manalo invented the other sheep as the Filipinos, to prop up the egos of Filipinos to make them believe they are special to Jesus. And idiotic Filipinos enjoyed hearing this Manalo invention.
A. Copy? Prove it! I don’t think I’am special nor prop up my egos believing that we are the other sheep of Jesus. I do believe that by God grace and mercy I would be save! I never think that I less sin of you, God mercy on me and forgive my sin. Ask my Filipino brothers and sisters if they are not think and feel the same.
Paul prophesied it in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
What happened to the church? It grew. Here's Christianity timeline.
October 30 2009, 6:26 PM
Your posts:
B. From 30 AD – 100 AD, what event happen to the church?
C. To proclaim the gospel in Europe how many century needed? Think of it by now?
(What's your point?)
c. 4 BC Birth of Jesus
c. 26 AD John the Baptist begins ministry
c. 27 AD Jesus begins ministry
c. 30 AD Crucifixion of Jesus
c. 35 Conversion of Paul
c. 44 Martyrdom of James
c. 46-48 Paul's first missionary journey
c. 49 Council of Jerusalem
c. 50-52 Paul's second missionary journey
c. 51-52 First and Second Thessalonians written
c. 53-57 Paul's third missionary journey
c. 57 Letter to the Romans written
c. 59-62 Paul imprisoned in Rome
c. 60 Andrew martyred by crucifixion in Achaia (Greece).
c. 66-67 Second Timothy written
c. 68 Martyrdom of Paul
70 Fall of Jerusalem
c. 90-95 John exiled on island of Patmos
c. 95 Book of Revelation written
c. 96 Clement of Rome's Letter to the Corinthians written
c. 120 Didache written
202 Christians persecuted under Septimus Severus
211 Christians tolerated under Emperor Antoninus Caracalla
222 Christians favored Emperor Alexander Severus
230 Origen's On First Principles
235 Christians persecuted under Emperor Maximin the Thracian
238 Christians tolerated under Emperor Gordian III
244 Christians favored under Emperor Philip the Arabian
251 Cyprian's Unity of the Catholic Church
254 Death of Origen
303 Diocletian orders burning of Christian books and churches
312 Emperor Constantine's conversion to Christianity
313 Edict of Milan establishes official toleration of Christianity
325 Council of Nicea
336 Death of Constantine
354 Birth of Augustine
367 Athanasius lists all 27 books of NT
379 Basil the Great dies
380 Christianity made official religion of Roman Empire
381 Council of Constantinople 386 Augustine converts to Christianity
389 Gregory of Nazianzus dies
395 Gregory of Nyssa dies
c. 400 Jerome's Vulgate (translation of the Greek Bible into Latin)
407 John Chrysostom dies
411 Council of Carthage condemns Donatists
417 Pope Innocent I condemns Pelagianism
420 Death of Jerome
430 Death of Augustine
431 Council of Ephesus
451 Council of Chalcedon
787 Second Council of Nicea
950 Olga of Russia converts to Christianity
The "other sheep" copied by Felix Manalo from the Mormons.
October 30 2009, 6:49 PM
Your posts:
A. Trully, Jesus was thinking of ALL NATIONS, the gentiles. Anyway, these you call pigmies are gentiles or not gentiles? It is true that Jesus was not thinking of that pigmies, when he said, “I have othe sheep”, this is in harmony of time given in the prophecy, ENDS of the earth.
A. Copy? Prove it! I don’t think I’am special nor prop up my egos believing that we are the other sheep of Jesus. I do believe that by God grace and mercy I would be save! I never think that I less sin of you, God mercy on me and forgive my sin. Ask my Filipino brothers and sisters if they are not think and feel the same.
Felix Manalo copied the Mormons interpretation of the "other sheep" to mean their nations. The Mormons invented the Moroni Indians as the other sheep. Felix Manalo invented the other sheep as the Filipinos, to prop up the egos of Filipinos to make them believe they are special to Jesus. And idiotic Filipinos enjoyed hearing this Manalo invention.
Paul prophesied it in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
The Church of Christ, later called Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, was the original church founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. Organized informally in 1829 and then as a legal entity on April 6, 1830 in northwestern New York, it was the first organization implementing the principles found in Smith's newly-published Book of Mormon, and represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement.
(LDS foundation antedates INC foundation by 84 years. LDS claim of the “other sheep” was ahead of Felix Manalo’s claim.)
Latter-day Saints claim that Jesus' visit to America fulfilled John 10:14-16. But, the context shows Jesus was talking to Jews (v. 19), so the “other sheep” were non-Jews or Gentiles, since the Jews recognized only those two kinds of people. The Jehovah Witnesses say it means the 144,000, the Mormons say it means those that were in Central America. The Bible context shows Jesus was talking to Jews (v. 19), so the “other sheep” were non-Jews or what we call Gentiles. The Jews recognized only those two kinds of people (clean and unclean). Jesus said He came to the lost sheep (the house of Israel). There are other sheep (non Jews that he would call into one fold and he would be the shepherd of both.)
http://www.letusreason.org/LDS30.htm
As posted by someone here in this forum, Felix Manalo lied about going to Pacific School of Religion in about 1918 after his trial about the Rosita Trillanes case. The Pacific School of Religion denied ever having Felix Manalo as their student. So where did he go? An investigator found that Felix Manalo instead went to Salt Lake City in Utah and offered the Mormons one million Filipino Mormon converts, PROVIDED they make him an apostle. At that time, the Mormon LDS was all white church. They did not even have black members, so they frowned on the idea of having little brown Mormons, let alone one million poor brown Mormons with a brown Mormon apostle. It didn't fit their doctrines.
Dejected, Felix Manalo copied their "other sheep" doctrine making the other sheep Filipinos and he copied too their impressive architectural style like the Tabernacle and Assembly Hall.
Re: The "other sheep" copied by Felix Manalo from the Mormons.
October 30 2009, 11:27 PM
I don’t believe this doctrine are copied. As you said, the scholars agree that the other sheep is about the gentiles(1st). 2nd, the “other sheep” is a prophecy. Enlighting the true fulfillment is God’s grace to the chosen one. Need a lot of proof to see the light. 3rd, We are using one Bible, although different translations, it is logic that we believe on the same prophecy, sometimes not. Ex. Christ 2nd coming, apostasy, etc.. When I speak about “apostasy”, thus it mean I copied to the catholics? No! It is easier to say sounds like, but never the same.
So which are "the other sheep", the Aetas, the Moroni Indians, or the gentiles?
November 10 2009, 7:20 PM
If Jesus was thinking of the Aetas (the pygmies in the islands called the Philippines), don't you think Peter and Paul would sail to the Philippines instead of sailing to the capital of the gentiles, Rome?
I did study the Mormon church, but have not heard of Moroni Indians.
November 12 2009, 2:59 PM
In Mormon scriptures, Moroni was claimed to be an Israelite in the New World, who after death became an angel and visited Joseph Smith. As far as I know, the Lamanites, who according to them became the Indians, are never called Moroni Indians.
I don't know how Peter got to Rome, but Paul chose to go to Rome in order to appeal his punishment, not because he thought Rome was more worthy of his preaching than the Aetas or the ancestors of the Tagalogs, Ilocanos etc. on the Philippines.
Lasenna, who taught you bible study? Here's an example of poor bible study.
November 1 2009, 5:47 PM
Lasenna’s post:
A. -- Living Bible
Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, ``Will only a few be saved?''And he replied, ``The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, for the truth is that many will try to enter but when the head of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. Then if you stand outside knocking, and pleading, `Lord, open the door for us,' he will reply, `I do not know you.'
Do you read the story of Noah? Learned from it..
Here is Douay Rheim Version:
Luke 13:23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.
24 "Shall seek"... Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it.
Did Jesus answer the question? No. Jesus did not directly answer the question. Jesus did not answer whether many or few will be saved. Instead he told of a deeper truth. The narrow gate does not mean only a few will be saved.
If only a few would be saved, why are you a member of the Iglesia ni Cristo (founded by "angel of the east" Felix Manalo) which has about 10 million members. Why not join the Members Church of God International (founded by Eliseo Soriano) which has much fewer members than the Iglesia ni Cristo.
Or why not join the Kingdom of Jesus Christ by the "appointed son of God" Apollo C. Quiboloy which has much fewer members than the Members Church of God International of Eliseo Soriano?
If Jesus was talking about numbers only, then he contradict himself when he commands his church to preach to all nations. He also contradicts God the Father: 1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
No, Jesus wasn't telling that a only few would be saved. Matt 7:13 is clearer. "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
John 10 9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.
John 14 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
What is the truth Jesus was suggesting? Jesus is the narrow gate, the door, the way, the truth and the life. Not anybody else. Not Martin Luther, not Joseph Smith, not Felix Manalo, not Elseo Soriano, not Apollo C. Quiboloy, nor hundreds of thousands of false prophets who come to you in the clothing of sheep, or "angel of the east" or "appointed son of God.", but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.
What about the story of Noah? God planned the ark to save Noah's family. Like Noah's ark, God planned his church to save mankind. Jesus came down from heaven
1. to save humanity from sin and evil by his act of atonement on the cross
2. to teach mankind how to think and behave by his teachings and action.
Once Jesus had completed this, He made the extraordinary decision to hand over to a small group of disciples the awesome task of bringing the saving message of the Gospel to the four corners of the earth.
Jesus promised three great things:
1. the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church.
2. the Holy Spirit will guide his church forever.
3. to be with his church ALL DAYS until the consummation of the world.
Mark 16:15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
Is it not very clear Mr. Lasenna. When you reject the church founded by Jesus, you will be condemned?
The church founded by Jesus is the new Ark of Salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned."
Re: Lasenna, who taught you bible study? Here's an example of poor bible study.
November 2 2009, 6:33 AM
No one taught me bible study.
Beartrici‘s post:
Here is Douay Rheim Version:
Luke 13:23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.
24 "Shall seek"... Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it.
Did Jesus answer the question? No. Jesus did not directly answer the question. Jesus did not answer whether many or few will be saved. Instead he told of a deeper truth. The narrow gate does not mean only a few will be saved.
A. Jesus answered is clear.
-- New King James
Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, FOR MANY, I say to you, will seek to enter and WILL NOT BE ABLE.
-- Revised Standard
Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; FOR MANY, I tell you, will seek to enter and WILL NOT BE ABLE.
-- American Standard
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: FOR MANY, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE.
-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Luke 13:24 `Try your hardest to enter by the narrow door, because, I tell you, MANY will try to enter and WILL NOT SUCCEED.
Conclusion:
If many will try to enter and will not succeed what does it mean? It means only FEW will saved. Jesus did not simply answered YES or NO. He explained why only few will save, because MANY will try to enter and WILL NOT SUCCEED.
--------
If only a few would be saved, why are you a member of the Iglesia ni Cristo (founded by "angel of the east" Felix Manalo) which has about 10 million members. Why not join the Members Church of God International (founded by Eliseo Soriano) which has much fewer members than the Iglesia ni Cristo.
Or why not join the Kingdom of Jesus Christ by the "appointed son of God" Apollo C. Quiboloy which has much fewer members than the Members Church of God International of Eliseo Soriano?
A. Simply because the Iglesia ni Cristo is the other sheep of Jesus Christ. Means we are the true Church of Christ. We have direct authorization written in the Bibles, others not. You, Roman Catholics, what is your authority? Who give you authority? None!
Again you are saying Jesus was thinking of the other sheep the pygmies of the Philippines.
November 3 2009, 8:42 PM
In about 30 A.D. there were only a handful of pygmies in some islands called in the 16th century as the Philippines.
Why would Jesus be thinking of the pygmies specifically in the Philippines? Why not the pygmies in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, etc?
2 Tim 4:3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
The truth is that "other sheep" are all gentiles (non-Jews) not only pygmies in the Philippines, but all nations. Felix Manalo is so well known for inventing fables and ignorant Filipinos love to hear. What are his claims? He's angel of the east, ravenous bird of prey, worm Jacob, third angel and third Elijah!
Let me tell you again that pygmies were far from the only people in the Philippines
November 5 2009, 11:54 AM
in the first century, as I told you above. Both archaeology and linguistics prove that Austronesians moved from Taiwan (where there is the most diversity of Austronesian languages, showing that clearly that is where the original proto-Austronesian language was spoken) to Philippines about 5000 years ago, and from there Austronesians spread to Indonesia etc.
Clearly the Austronesians met the pygmies in the Philippines, and soon became the main people, so pygmies gradually remained in more remote areas. And still, the pygmies adopted the dominant Austronesian languages, so their original languages are extinct in the Philippines.
And so it is clear, that already by the first century, the main people of the Philippines were not pygmies, but the Austronesian ancestors of the Tagalogs, Ilocanos, Cebuanos, Maranaos etc.
And so first century missionaries brought the gospel both to the pygmies and to the dominant Austronesians, as they brought the gospel to all people around the world. But then most people forgot the gospel, and it survived only in Europe, western Asia, northern Africa and down to Ethiopia, and southwestern India, until several centuries ago the gospel began to be spread around the globe again.
By A. D. 100,...Christianity had become an institution headed by a three-rank hierarchy of bishops, priests, and deacons, who understood themselves to be the guardians of the only "true faith." The majority of churches, among which the church of Rome took a leading role, rejected all other viewpoints as heresy. Deploring the diversity of the earlier movement, Bishop Irenaeus and his followers insisted that there could be only one church, and outside of that church, he declared, "there is no salvation." Members of this church alone are orthodox (literally, "straight-thinking") Christians. And, he claimed, this church must be catholic-- that is, universal.(The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. Published by Vintage Books. 1994)
The Empire within the Empire.—Long before the fall of Rome there had begun to grow up within the Roman Empire an ecclesiastical state, which in its constitution and its administrative system was shaping itself upon the imperial model. This spiritual empire, like the secular empire, possessed a hierarchy of officers, of which deacons, priests or prebyters, and bishops were the most important. The bishops collectively formed what is know as the episcopate. There were four grades of bishops, namely, country bishops, city bishops, metropolitans or archbishops, and patriarchs. At the end of the third century there were five patriarchates, that is, regions ruled by patriarchs. These centered in the great cities of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. Among the patriarchs, the patriarchs of Rome were accorded almost universally a precedence in honor and dignity. They claimed further a precedence in authority and jurisdiction, and this was already very widely recognized ...Besides the influence of great men, such as Leo the Great, Gregory the Great, and Nicholas I, who held the seat of St. Peter, there were various historical circumstances that contributed to the realization by the Roman bishops of their claim to supremacy and aided them vastly in establishing the almost universal authority of the see of Rome. In the following paragraphs we shall enumerate several of these favoring circumstances. These matters constitute the great landmarks in the rise and early growth of the Papacy.
The belief in the Primacy of St. Peter and in the Founding by him of the Church at Rome.—The Catholic Church teaches that the apostle Peter was given by the Master primacy among his fellow apostles and, furthermore, that Christ intrusted that disciple with the keys of the kingdom of heaven and invested him with superlative authority as teacher and interpreter of the Word by the commission "Feed my sheep"; . . ."feed my lambs," thus giving into his charge the entire flock of the Church. It also teaches that the apostle Peter himself founded the church at Rome. Without doubt he preached at Rome and suffered martyrdom there under the Emperor Nero...The Pastor as Protector of Rome.—With the advent of the barbarians there came another occasion for the Roman bishops to widen their influence and enhance their authority. Rome’s extremity was their opportunity. Thus it will be recalled how mainly through the intercession of the pious Pope Leo the Great the fierce Attila was persuaded to turn back and spare the imperial city; and how the same bishop, in the year A.D. 455, also appeased in a measure the wrath of the Vandal Geiseric and shielded the inhabitants from the worst passions of a barbarian soldiery...Thus when the emperors, the natural defenders of the capital, were unable to protect it, the unarmed Pastor was able, through the awe and reverence inspired by his holy office, to render services that could not but result in bringing increased honor and dignity to the Roman see. (Mediaeval and Modern History, By Myers, Pg 26-27 Ginn and Company New York, 1905 )
"If you are a Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year 33. "(Ann Landers (Jewish), syndicated columnist in the Daily Record of Morris County, N.J. (from which we take this piece) for Monday, November 11,1996 reads)
________________________________________
IN THE WRITINGS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.' Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ." (Unity of the Catholic Church)
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation." (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Latina)
"Nay, though they should suffer death for the confession of the Name, the guilt of such men is not removed even by their blood...No martyr can he be who is not in the Church." (Ancient Christian Writers)
"Christ has declared the unity of the Church. Whoever parts and divides the Church cannot possess Christ ... The House of God is but one, and no one can have salvation except in the Church" (The Unity of the Church)
"There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church ... and it is they who in His Church have labored in doing good works whom the Lord says shall be received into the Kingdom of Heaven on the Day of Judgment." (Epistle 73:21)
Bishop Firmilean (died A.D. 269): "What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church." (Anti-Nicene Fathers)
Saints Cosmas and Damian (died A.D. 303): "There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church" (Saints to Remember)
St. Catherine of Alexandria (died A.D. 307) "It is necessary for you to believe the Catholic Faith and to be baptized, as must every man in order to save his soul." (Saints to Know and Love)
Lactantius (died A.D. 310): "It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation." (The Divine Institutes)
Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died A.D. 386): "Abhor all heretics...heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are serpents, a `brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas said `Hail Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, `Did I not hate, O Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your enemies?' For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written, `I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away." (The Fathers of the Church)
Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): "Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. ...Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward." (The Fathers of the Church)
St. John Chrysostom (died A.D. 407): "We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and Catholic Faith." (De Capto Eutropio)
"We should mourn for those who are dying without the Faith ... And well should the pagan weep and lament who, not knowing God, goes straight to punishment when he dies!" (On the Consolation of Death)
St. Gaudentius of Brescia (died A.D. 410): "It is certain that all men of Noah's time perished, except those who merited to be in the Ark, which was a figure of the Church. Likewise, they cannot in any way now be saved who are aliens from the Apostolic Faith and the Catholic Church" (De Lect. Evangel)
Bishop Niceta of Remesiana (died A.D. 415): "He is the Way along which we journey to our salvation; the Truth, because He rejects what is false; the Life, because He destroys death. ...All who from the beginning of the world were, or are, or will be justified - whether Patriarchs, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or Prophets, whether Apostles or martyrs, or any others - make up one Church, because they are made holy by one faith and way of life, stamped with one Spirit, made into one Body whose Head, as we are told, is Christ. I go further. The angels and virtues and powers in heaven are co-members in this one Church, for, as the Apostle teaches us, in Christ `all things whether on the earth or in the heavens have been reconciled.' You must believe, therefore, that in this one Church you are gathered into the Communion of Saints. You must know that this is the one Catholic Church established throughout the world, and with it you must remain in unshaken communion. There are, indeed, other so called `churches' with which you can have no communion. ...These `churches' cease to be holy, because they were deceived by the doctrines of the devil to believe and behave differently from what Christ commanded and from the tradition of the Apostles." (The Fathers of the Church)
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. ...This is the Ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. ...And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)
"Therefore, I believe it is good for me to praise the Chair and Faith of peter: with you alone remains uncorrupted the inhereitance of the Fathers. As I follow no one but Christ, so do I therefore unite myself with Your Holiness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this House is profane; whoever is not in this Ark of Noah will perish in the Flood; whoever does not gather with thee scatters; that is: he who is not Christ's is Antichrist's." (To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
"So certain and so clear is the Catholic Faith as expressed in the words of the Apostolic See, so ancient and so well-extablished, that it would be a sacrilege for any Christian to doubt!" (Faith of the Early Fathers)
"There is nothing a Christian should dread more than to be separated from the Body of Christ, for if he is separated from the Body, he is not one of His Members. If he is not a member of Christ, then he does not live by His Spirit. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ," says the Apostle, "he is none of His" (Romans 8:9) ... Do you also wish to live by the Spirit of Christ? Then belong to the Body of Christ. No one ascends into Heaven except him who remains glued to Christ, for "no man hath ascended into Heaven except Him Who alone descended from Heaven: the Son of man Who is in Heaven" (John 3:13). Do you want to ascend, too? Then become a member of Him Who alone ascends! For He, the Head, is one man with the other members ... If, then, the Body of Christ and its members belong to "one man," do not make two of them ... He is the Bridegroom Who is the Head, the Bride is he who is in the Body. For "they two," He said, "shall be in one flesh" (Mt. 19:5-6) ... And since no one can ascend into Heaven but him who has become His member in His Body, the saying is fulfilled that "no man ascends to Heaven except Him Who descended" ... What do these words mean if not that no man ascends into heaven who has not been made one with Him and, as a member, become hidden within the Body of Him who has descended from Heaven? And what is that Body if not the Church?" (Treatise on John)
"Everyone God teaches, He teaches out of pity; but whomever He does not teach, He does not teach them out of justice ... The saving grace of this religion, the only true one, through which alone true salvation is truly promised, has never been refused anyone who was worthy of it; and whoever did lack it was unworthy of it. Consequently, those who have not heard the Gospel, and those who, having heard it, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe in Him ... all of these have perished in death; they all go in one lump into condemnation." (Predestination of the Saints; Admonition and Grace)
St. Patrick (died A.D. 493): "Not without just cause does the Apostle say: 'Where the righteous shall scarcely be saved, where shall the sinner and the ungodly transgressor of the law find himself?' (1Peter 4:18). The Words are not mine, but God's and the Apostle's and Prophet's who have never lied: "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be damned' (Mk 16:16). God hath spoken!" (The Writings of St. Patrick)
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): "Hold most firmly and never doubt at all that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Enchiridion Patristicum)
"No one can be saved by any means outside the Church; all pagans and heretics are infallibly damned ... Anyone who is outside the Church is walking a path not to Heaven but to Hell. He is not approaching the home of eternal life; rather, he is hastening to the torment of eternal death." ("On the Faith of Peter" and "The Forgiveness of Sins")
"Anyone who is out of this Church is walking a path not to heaven, but to hell. He is not getting closer to the home of eternal life; on the contrary, he is hurrying to the torments of eternal death. And this is the case not only if he remains a pagan without Baptism, but even if, after having been Baptized, he continue as a heretic" (To Euthymius, on the Remission of Sins)
Saint Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): "Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside." (Hexaemeron)
"He who will not willingly and humbly enter the gate of the Church will certainly be damned and enter the gate of hell whether he wants to or not!" (cf. Sermon 16; PL94:129)
Lasenna, do you have any independent reference that the Iglesia ni Cristo founded by Felix
November 3 2009, 7:09 PM
Manalo is the true church founded by Jesus?
Or is that a belief only by the members of your church?
I posted above independent references that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. It is a historical fact that Jesus founded his church and this church is officially named Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church.
God created the earth and the moon and man but he did not name them after himself.
In the same way, God created his church but he did not name it after him.
Besides when there is only one, then there is no need to name it.
If you have only one house, you do not name it. You just call it your house.
But if you have two, you may call it after the street name. You might call one Maple St. house and the other Eagle Way house, after the streets they are on.
When there were more churches, then it is named to distinguish it from the others.
But anyway, the true church is the church founded by Jesus himself. It is so named Universal church or Catholic Church because Jesus wanted it to preach to all nations.
It is not just a Filipino church, nor American church, or Russian church but universal or Catholic.
Similarly you have no proof that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus.
November 5 2009, 12:17 PM
The church of the apostles was called in the Bible Church of God, Churches of God, Churches of Christ, Body of Christ and other names, most often simply the Church. As the apostles became few, and opinions became more diverse, the church split into different denominations, like Ebionites, Nazarenes, and Catholics. So Jesus did not found Catholics, he founded only the original Church. And the different denominations that are not false gospels, belong all to God's church. So that includes thousands of denominations, like the Catholic church, INC, Southern Baptist Convention, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Pentecostal Church International, Salvation Army, etc. Paul makes this clear in 1 Cor. 12:13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...". This is holy spirit baptism, received by all who believe correctly the necessary doctrines and repent, regardless if they are trinitarian or binitarian or modalist or unitarian or Arian or even polytheist, they get the holy spirit baptism, regardless if they got water baptism. So churches like the Salvation Army or Quakers, that don't believe in water baptism, also have the holy spirit baptism and are baptized by this baptism into one body, meaning one Church.
Who founded Ebionites and Nazarenes? The Catholic Church?
November 7 2009, 12:20 AM
Ebionites according to this source was founded by Ebion.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm
These Ebionites recognized Jesus as the Messiah but considered him to be of normal human parentage. They adhered to the old Jewish laws, had their own gospel, and disapproved of the teachings of Paul. For these reasons, the fourth-century Bishop Epiphanius declared them to be heretics.
There aren't any reliable reports of what finally happened to either the Nazarenes or the Ebionites. Quite possibly both groups completely died out soon after the fourth century. However, a few scholars think that small communities may have survived for a longer period in remote areas.
http://www.gospel-mysteries.net/nazarenes.html
Jerome and Epiphanius both wrote how the Nazarene sect existed in their day[13][14], the late fourth century. However, little is known how their sect disappeared.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)
The Catholic Church
When Was The Catholic Church founded?
BY Charles The Hammer
When researching the history of the Catholic Church using public sources we find that many times they are reluctant to give the full truth as to when and by whom the Catholic Church was found. Some are only willing to admit the church existed in the first century but most just avoid the issue altogether. Below, I have listed a series of citations from non-Catholic sources which are believed to be helpful in apologetics. When you read them you'll notice that each one admits certain details but does not discuss other details, of course it would not do well with Protestants if any encyclopedia came forward and stated " The Catholic Church was founded in the first century by Jesus Christ " but occasionally they're forced to admit part of this truth such as the church existing from the first century or its connection to the apostles of Jesus Christ, is for this reason they become useful.
Protestants many times would like us to believe there was no early church structure or for that matter a specific early church and that Constantine "created" the Roman Catholic Church. they would also like us to believe there was no standardized early church leadership and no universal church leadership, all of these were creations of the third and fourth century. Although as a stated above not everyone the citations is as explicit as we may want them to be their very useful against the pseudo-history.
By A. D. 100,...Christianity had become an institution headed by a three-rank hierarchy of bishops, priests, and deacons, who understood themselves to be the guardians of the only "true faith." The majority of churches, among which the church of Rome took a leading role, rejected all other viewpoints as heresy. Deploring the diversity of the earlier movement, Bishop Irenaeus and his followers insisted that there could be only one church, and outside of that church, he declared, "there is no salvation." Members of this church alone are orthodox (literally, "straight-thinking") Christians. And, he claimed, this church must be catholic-- that is, universal.(The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. Published by Vintage Books. 1994)
The Empire within the Empire.—Long before the fall of Rome there had begun to grow up within the Roman Empire an ecclesiastical state, which in its constitution and its administrative system was shaping itself upon the imperial model. This spiritual empire, like the secular empire, possessed a hierarchy of officers, of which deacons, priests or prebyters, and bishops were the most important. The bishops collectively formed what is know as the episcopate. There were four grades of bishops, namely, country bishops, city bishops, metropolitans or archbishops, and patriarchs. At the end of the third century there were five patriarchates, that is, regions ruled by patriarchs. These centered in the great cities of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. Among the patriarchs, the patriarchs of Rome were accorded almost universally a precedence in honor and dignity. They claimed further a precedence in authority and jurisdiction, and this was already very widely recognized ...Besides the influence of great men, such as Leo the Great, Gregory the Great, and Nicholas I, who held the seat of St. Peter, there were various historical circumstances that contributed to the realization by the Roman bishops of their claim to supremacy and aided them vastly in establishing the almost universal authority of the see of Rome. In the following paragraphs we shall enumerate several of these favoring circumstances. These matters constitute the great landmarks in the rise and early growth of the Papacy.
The belief in the Primacy of St. Peter and in the Founding by him of the Church at Rome.—The Catholic Church teaches that the apostle Peter was given by the Master primacy among his fellow apostles and, furthermore, that Christ intrusted that disciple with the keys of the kingdom of heaven and invested him with superlative authority as teacher and interpreter of the Word by the commission "Feed my sheep"; . . ."feed my lambs," thus giving into his charge the entire flock of the Church. It also teaches that the apostle Peter himself founded the church at Rome. Without doubt he preached at Rome and suffered martyrdom there under the Emperor Nero...The Pastor as Protector of Rome.—With the advent of the barbarians there came another occasion for the Roman bishops to widen their influence and enhance their authority. Rome’s extremity was their opportunity. Thus it will be recalled how mainly through the intercession of the pious Pope Leo the Great the fierce Attila was persuaded to turn back and spare the imperial city; and how the same bishop, in the year A.D. 455, also appeased in a measure the wrath of the Vandal Geiseric and shielded the inhabitants from the worst passions of a barbarian soldiery...Thus when the emperors, the natural defenders of the capital, were unable to protect it, the unarmed Pastor was able, through the awe and reverence inspired by his holy office, to render services that could not but result in bringing increased honor and dignity to the Roman see. (Mediaeval and Modern History, By Myers, Pg 26-27 Ginn and Company New York, 1905 )
"If you are a Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year 33. "(Ann Landers (Jewish), syndicated columnist in the Daily Record of Morris County, N.J. (from which we take this piece) for Monday, November 11,1996 reads)
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IN THE WRITINGS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.' Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ." (Unity of the Catholic Church)
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation." (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Latina)
"Nay, though they should suffer death for the confession of the Name, the guilt of such men is not removed even by their blood...No martyr can he be who is not in the Church." (Ancient Christian Writers)
"Christ has declared the unity of the Church. Whoever parts and divides the Church cannot possess Christ ... The House of God is but one, and no one can have salvation except in the Church" (The Unity of the Church)
"There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church ... and it is they who in His Church have labored in doing good works whom the Lord says shall be received into the Kingdom of Heaven on the Day of Judgment." (Epistle 73:21)
Bishop Firmilean (died A.D. 269): "What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church." (Anti-Nicene Fathers)
Saints Cosmas and Damian (died A.D. 303): "There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church" (Saints to Remember)
St. Catherine of Alexandria (died A.D. 307) "It is necessary for you to believe the Catholic Faith and to be baptized, as must every man in order to save his soul." (Saints to Know and Love)
Lactantius (died A.D. 310): "It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation." (The Divine Institutes)
Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died A.D. 386): "Abhor all heretics...heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are serpents, a `brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas said `Hail Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, `Did I not hate, O Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your enemies?' For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written, `I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away." (The Fathers of the Church)
Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): "Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. ...Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward." (The Fathers of the Church)
St. John Chrysostom (died A.D. 407): "We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and Catholic Faith." (De Capto Eutropio)
"We should mourn for those who are dying without the Faith ... And well should the pagan weep and lament who, not knowing God, goes straight to punishment when he dies!" (On the Consolation of Death)
St. Gaudentius of Brescia (died A.D. 410): "It is certain that all men of Noah's time perished, except those who merited to be in the Ark, which was a figure of the Church. Likewise, they cannot in any way now be saved who are aliens from the Apostolic Faith and the Catholic Church" (De Lect. Evangel)
Bishop Niceta of Remesiana (died A.D. 415): "He is the Way along which we journey to our salvation; the Truth, because He rejects what is false; the Life, because He destroys death. ...All who from the beginning of the world were, or are, or will be justified - whether Patriarchs, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or Prophets, whether Apostles or martyrs, or any others - make up one Church, because they are made holy by one faith and way of life, stamped with one Spirit, made into one Body whose Head, as we are told, is Christ. I go further. The angels and virtues and powers in heaven are co-members in this one Church, for, as the Apostle teaches us, in Christ `all things whether on the earth or in the heavens have been reconciled.' You must believe, therefore, that in this one Church you are gathered into the Communion of Saints. You must know that this is the one Catholic Church established throughout the world, and with it you must remain in unshaken communion. There are, indeed, other so called `churches' with which you can have no communion. ...These `churches' cease to be holy, because they were deceived by the doctrines of the devil to believe and behave differently from what Christ commanded and from the tradition of the Apostles." (The Fathers of the Church)
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. ...This is the Ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. ...And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)
"Therefore, I believe it is good for me to praise the Chair and Faith of peter: with you alone remains uncorrupted the inhereitance of the Fathers. As I follow no one but Christ, so do I therefore unite myself with Your Holiness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this House is profane; whoever is not in this Ark of Noah will perish in the Flood; whoever does not gather with thee scatters; that is: he who is not Christ's is Antichrist's." (To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
"So certain and so clear is the Catholic Faith as expressed in the words of the Apostolic See, so ancient and so well-extablished, that it would be a sacrilege for any Christian to doubt!" (Faith of the Early Fathers)
"There is nothing a Christian should dread more than to be separated from the Body of Christ, for if he is separated from the Body, he is not one of His Members. If he is not a member of Christ, then he does not live by His Spirit. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ," says the Apostle, "he is none of His" (Romans 8:9) ... Do you also wish to live by the Spirit of Christ? Then belong to the Body of Christ. No one ascends into Heaven except him who remains glued to Christ, for "no man hath ascended into Heaven except Him Who alone descended from Heaven: the Son of man Who is in Heaven" (John 3:13). Do you want to ascend, too? Then become a member of Him Who alone ascends! For He, the Head, is one man with the other members ... If, then, the Body of Christ and its members belong to "one man," do not make two of them ... He is the Bridegroom Who is the Head, the Bride is he who is in the Body. For "they two," He said, "shall be in one flesh" (Mt. 19:5-6) ... And since no one can ascend into Heaven but him who has become His member in His Body, the saying is fulfilled that "no man ascends to Heaven except Him Who descended" ... What do these words mean if not that no man ascends into heaven who has not been made one with Him and, as a member, become hidden within the Body of Him who has descended from Heaven? And what is that Body if not the Church?" (Treatise on John)
"Everyone God teaches, He teaches out of pity; but whomever He does not teach, He does not teach them out of justice ... The saving grace of this religion, the only true one, through which alone true salvation is truly promised, has never been refused anyone who was worthy of it; and whoever did lack it was unworthy of it. Consequently, those who have not heard the Gospel, and those who, having heard it, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe in Him ... all of these have perished in death; they all go in one lump into condemnation." (Predestination of the Saints; Admonition and Grace)
St. Patrick (died A.D. 493): "Not without just cause does the Apostle say: 'Where the righteous shall scarcely be saved, where shall the sinner and the ungodly transgressor of the law find himself?' (1Peter 4:18). The Words are not mine, but God's and the Apostle's and Prophet's who have never lied: "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be damned' (Mk 16:16). God hath spoken!" (The Writings of St. Patrick)
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): "Hold most firmly and never doubt at all that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Enchiridion Patristicum)
"No one can be saved by any means outside the Church; all pagans and heretics are infallibly damned ... Anyone who is outside the Church is walking a path not to Heaven but to Hell. He is not approaching the home of eternal life; rather, he is hastening to the torment of eternal death." ("On the Faith of Peter" and "The Forgiveness of Sins")
"Anyone who is out of this Church is walking a path not to heaven, but to hell. He is not getting closer to the home of eternal life; on the contrary, he is hurrying to the torments of eternal death. And this is the case not only if he remains a pagan without Baptism, but even if, after having been Baptized, he continue as a heretic" (To Euthymius, on the Remission of Sins)
Saint Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): "Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside." (Hexaemeron)
"He who will not willingly and humbly enter the gate of the Church will certainly be damned and enter the gate of hell whether he wants to or not!" (cf. Sermon 16; PL94:129)
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Some churches have one founder, some two or more. What matters is whether a church belongs into God's church or not. God's church had divisions already in the first century. Paul mentioned people following Paul or Apollos or Peter, criticized them for that, but did not consider them unsaved.
It is true that the Ebionite churches had errors, they taught observing the Law of Moses, even circumcision, condemned Paul, some even taught against the virgin birth of Jesus, but none of these errors meant they were unsaved. There are only about ten doctrines necessary for salvation, and as far as I know they believed in all of them. Though there were apparently also Gnostics who called themselves Ebionites, and those could have been unsaved. Many Gnostics taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh, and that is a doctrine necessary for salvation, that he did come in the flesh. So most, if not all, Gnostic churches were false gospels.
We do not know who founded the Catholic church, that information is lost to history. But it is not a continuation of apostolic teaching. Clearly some men came, introduced many wrong teachings, and started the Catholic church. Some of these false teachings are even rejected by the modern Catholic church. This includes the teaching in the quotes you included in your post, that one must be in the Catholic church to be saved. Nowadays you teach correctly that there are saved Christians in other churches also. Though today's Catholic church goes to the other extreme, teaching there are also saved non-Christians, including among Jews and Muslims. Other false teachings of the second century Catholic church that are now correctly rejected by today's Catholic church include for example pacifism, ban on things like colored clothes, wigs, dyeing of hair, women not veiled in public, people going to entertainments, charging of interest, shaving of beards, incense, lawsuits against even unbelievers, praying not to the east, wearing perfume, becoming politicians. On the other hand, they allowed slavery. None of these teaching were from the apostolic church, they came from the people who founded the Catholic church and their followers. Likewise other errors that are still continued by today's Catholic church, which we have been discussing here for years. And certainly today's Catholic church has many errors that were rejected by the second century Catholic church, but entered that church in later centuries.
Tomas does not recognize any authority, except his own and his will.
November 7 2009, 12:34 PM
Mark 16:15-16 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
Luke 16:16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
Tomas, like the Iglesia members, does not believe the teachings of the church founded by Jesus, therefore he too will be condemned.
I recognize the authority of God, Jesus and the whole Bible.
November 7 2009, 1:40 PM
Whatever holy revelation was given orally before the Bible was finished, was also from God, but was not for us, just for them who heard it, otherwise it would have been written in the Bible. And after the Bible was finished, there were no further revelations of any kind, neither in visions, nor dreams, nor councils, nor tongues, nor holy books, nor speeches, nor ex cathedra pronouncements, nor prophecies, nothing of any kind, since Paul wrote to us not to go beyond what is written.
Not sole at all, in fact, it's the Bible that has the real authority.
November 12 2009, 3:06 PM
It is our duty to interpret the Bible as best as we can. But God does not expect our interpretation to be perfect, nobody is infallible except Jesus. We just have to be correct on the several doctrines necessary for salvation. God knows that on some other issues we could be wrong, he forgives that. So as I study the Bible more and more, sometimes I have had to correct my understanding. And this can happen in the future too. That should be the attitude of all Christians. They should not trust some alleged infallibility of some pope or executive minister or president or chief apostle or whoever, if any of them were infallible, the Bible would have said so. But instead the Bible says not to go beyond what is written. So no more revelation. We need to study instead, like the Bereans.
True, if one does not believe Jesus is God, they are not saved
November 4 2009, 11:09 PM
John 8:21
21 Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come." This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?" But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
John 10:28-30
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
John 10:33
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 5:16-23
“So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself EQUAL with God.
1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
2 Peter 2:1-3
“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
“But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.”
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
This NIV mistranslation says we have to believe all claims
November 5 2009, 12:28 PM
of Jesus about himself, like that he is a Jew, that he is the bread of life etc. That is absurd. We don't need to learn such a lengthy list before we are saved, then almost nobody would be saved. But thankfully, when we examine the original Greek of John 8:24, there is no verb like 'claim' in that verse. So we don't have to know everything he claimed. We don't need to discuss if he claimed to be God for example. Instead, 8:24 refers back to verse 12, which is the preceding verse where Jesus said who he is, that he is the Light of the World. So verse 24 says if we don't believe that Jesus is he, namely the Light of the World, we will die in our sins.
Lasenna, are you appealing to your sincerity in your faith?
November 5 2009, 7:49 AM
Your post:
"I don’t think I’am special nor prop up my egos believing that we are the other sheep of Jesus. I do believe that by God grace and mercy I would be save! I never think that I less sin of you, God mercy on me and forgive my sin. Ask my Filipino brothers and sisters if they are not think and feel the same."
Don't you think members of other religions also sincerely believe that their religion is the true religion of God?
Look at Muslim suicide bombers. Don't you believe that they too sincerely believe that if they blow themselves up, killing others too, they will see Allah and Allah with will reward them with 72 virgins?
Other religions like the Jehovah Witness, and the Mormons also sincerely believe that theirs is the true religion. Just like members of the Iglesia ni Cristo founded by Felix Manalo. They may be sincere, but they are still wrong. Just like Igleisias are sincere but still wrong.
Paul prophesied it in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
What are the fables taught by Felix Manalo? That he is:
1. Angel of the east
2. Ravenous bird of prey
3. Worm Jacob
4. Third angel
5. Third Elijah
6. Messenger of God
What are his proofs? He cuts and pastes bits and pieces of bible passages. He claims them, therefore it must be true. Yet no independent references will confirm those claims.
Do you know of any independent bible scholar who will confirm those claims?
Lasenna and Tomas, which is the pillar and bulwark of truth? You, Felix Manalo or the
November 12 2009, 1:25 AM
the church?
As Paul says: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. “ 1 Tim 3:15
"The pillar and ground of the truth"... Therefore the church of the living God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruptions, superstition, or idolatry.
Accusing the church founded by Jesus of committing apostasy is contradicting the words of Paul. You are saying Paul was wrong. You are saying the Bible is wrong. You are saying perhaps until Paul spoke, the church was the pillar and ground of truth. Then when he died the church no longer became the pillar and ground of truth.
Then you are calling Paul and the Bible are liars.
But Paul and the Bible are not liars. They both support the church. This church is the church founded on rock by Jesus. Jesus promised the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The church stood on rock from the time Jesus founded it, through thousands of centuries and through still the present time. Theat church is the Catholic Church founded by Jesus in about 30 AD.
The "Iglesia ni Cristo" founded by Felix Manalo did not exist until Felix Manalo founded it on July 27, 1914. It is not the church founded by Jesus. And those who believe in Felix Manalo instead of Jesus is making a terrible mistake.
The Lord Jesus also warned of false prophets who will deceive many (Matthew 7:15-23; 24:11-28).
Believe in Felix Manalo and you will burn in hell. Why not believe in Jesus?
I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes through the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also." ( John 14:6-7).
The church. But you have to realize what Paul meant by 'truth'.
November 12 2009, 3:23 PM
Paul, led by God, did not mean all truth about everything. You can't expect the church to have all knowledge of the theory of relativity centuries before Einstein. In fact, you well know that Copernicus and Galileo knew more about the solar system than their pope at that time.
So another theory can be knowledge of religion. But if your Catholic church was the pillar and bulwark of truth on religious matters, then that would not explain how it can change its mind on various issues, like eating blood, gambling, holy images, prayers to patron saints, use of Latin versus vernaculars in liturgy, translating the Bible into vernaculars, wearing beards, wearing veils, dyeing of hair, wearing colored clothes, pacifism, celibacy of bishops and elders, calling elders priests, giving both bread and wine to laity in Lord's supper, and other important religious issues.
So we need to consult the Bible, and there we see there are two types of religious truth, one type is mandatory to believe to be saved, the Church is pillar of this truth. The other is important, but not necessary for salvation, God forgives if we are wrong on some of those other truths, the Church is not pillar on these truths, just like it is not pillar on scientific truths.