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The Gospel Of Christ

November 13 2016 at 9:17 AM
INCquisitor  (Login fccc354)

 
The “gospel of Christ.”

The “gospel of Christ” is simply the “teaching or revelation of Christ” concerning God’s Plan of salvation. Naturally, the “gospel of Christ” is “good news” to those who desire to be saved from the “wages of sin.”


Man needs salvation.

All men are sinners. The Bible tells us that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The Bible also tells us that “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23).


Christ’s sole mission on earth?

The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17). Jesus also said that whoever believes in him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). Jesus further said that he who believes in him is not condemned but he who does not believe in him is condemned already (John 3:18).


God sent Christ to be propitiation for sins.

In order that people may be saved from their sins and receive God’s gift of eternal life, “God sent His son to be propitiation for our sins” (1 John 2:2; 4:10), by his blood, through faith (Rom. 3:25).

The Bible tells us that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8). Having now been justified by his blood, we will be saved from wrath through him (Rom. 5:9). And having been reconciled to God through his death, we shall be saved by his life (Rom. 5:10).


Necessity for Christ to die for sinners.

According to the law, almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22). Therefore, it is only through the blood of Christ that our conscience is purged of dead works to serve the living God (Heb. 9:14). In other words, it is only through the blood of Christ that we receive redemption and forgiveness of sin.


The gospel of Christ is God’s power to salvation for everyone who believes.

Apostle wrote: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith” (Rom. 1:16-17).

The reason why the gospel of Christ is God’s power to salvation for everyone who believes is because the righteousness of God is revealed therein. Therefore, a so-called gospel that does not reveal the “righteousness of God” is not God’s power to salvation for everyone who believes such gospel.


The “righteousness of God” concerning sin and sinners revealed by the gospel of Christ.

In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe. We must remember that God sent Jesus into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17).

Saved from what? Apostle Matthew wrote that Jesus will save God’s people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

Therefore, the mission of Jesus is to save God’s people from their sin. However, in order to do that, Jesus has to fulfill a law.

What is this law that Jesus was referring to? Since Jesus has to fulfill this law in order to accomplish his mission, then this law must have something to do with sin and the sinner.

What is this law called? This law is called the “righteousness of God.”

The Law states: “The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezek. 18:20).

In another verse, the Law says, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16).

How important is this law? Jesus said, “For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (Matt. 5:18).


Christ creates in himself the “one new man.” in order to fulfill his mission of saving people from their sin in conformity with the “righteousness of God.”

In order for Jesus to fulfill his mission of saving people from their sin in conformity with God’s righteousness, Jesus had to create in himself “one new man” (Eph. 2:15),“that he might “reconcile” both Jews and Gentiles to God in “one body” through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity” (Eph. 2:16).

This “one new man” is composed of Christ as the ”head” and the “church” as his “body” (Col. 1:18).

Apostle Paul wrote: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Rom. 8:2-4).

For He made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

This means that Christ, as “head” of the “one new man,” can die for the sins of his “body” in conformity with the “righteousness” of God.


Christ puts God’s Plan of Salvation into effect.

To “fulfill all righteousness,” Jesus had himself baptized by John (Matt. 3:15), not to have his sins forgiven, but to establish himself as “head of his body,” the “church.”

Next, Jesus “built his church” (Matt. 16:18), and God gave him to be” head” over all things to the “church,” which is his” body” (Eph. 1:22-23).


Christ is the savior of the church, his body.

The Bible tells us that Christ is the “savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23). Apostle Paul says it is the “church” that Christ “purchased” with his own blood (Acts 20:28).


Redemption, forgiveness of sins and reconciliation to God found only inside Christ’s body or church.

Apostle Paul also tells us that the kingdom of the Son of His love or the “church,” is “in whom” we have “redemption” through his blood, the “forgiveness” of sins (Col. 1:12-14). The “body” or “church” is “in whom” Jews and Greeks are “reconciled” to God through the cross (Eph. 2:16).


Christ’s invitation.

Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone “enters” by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (John 10:7,9).


The body or church of Christ is important to salvation.

In Acts 2:47, Apostle Peter says the Lord” added” to the church daily those who were “being” saved” contrary to the popular belief that the Lord adds to the church those that have “already” been saved.

In view of the foregoing, we can say with certainty that a so-called gospel that says the church is not important to salvation is false.

A so-called gospel that says that all one needs to do is accept Jesus as “Lord and personal savior” in order to have a “personal relationship” with him and be saved is definitely false.

People say that Christ is the savior, not the “church.” Well, that’s true. However, one cannot be saved by Christ through his blood, unless one becomes “one new man” with Christ inside his “body,” the “church.” Christ cannot die for anyone in violation of God’s righteousness concerning sin and the sinner.



 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 13 2016, 10:44 PM 

The “gospel of Christ.”

The “gospel of Christ” is simply the “teaching or revelation of Christ” concerning God’s Plan of salvation. Naturally, the “gospel of Christ” is “good news” to those who desire to be saved from the “wages of sin.”


Man needs salvation.

All men are sinners. The Bible tells us that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The Bible also tells us that “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23).


Christ’s sole mission on earth?

The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17). Jesus also said that whoever believes in him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). Jesus further said that he who believes in him is not condemned but he who does not believe in him is condemned already (John 3:18).


God sent Christ to be propitiation for sins.

In order that people may be saved from their sins and receive God’s gift of eternal life, “God sent His son to be propitiation for our sins” (1 John 2:2; 4:10), by his blood, through faith (Rom. 3:25).

The Bible tells us that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8). Having now been justified by his blood, we will be saved from wrath through him (Rom. 5:9). And having been reconciled to God through his death, we shall be saved by his life (Rom. 5:10).


Necessity for Christ to die for sinners.

According to the law, almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22). Therefore, it is only through the blood of Christ that our conscience is purged of dead works to serve the living God (Heb. 9:14). In other words, it is only through the blood of Christ that we receive redemption and forgiveness of sin.


The gospel of Christ is God’s power to salvation for everyone who believes.

Apostle wrote: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith” (Rom. 1:16-17).

The reason why the gospel of Christ is God’s power to salvation for everyone who believes is because the righteousness of God is revealed therein. Therefore, a so-called gospel that does not reveal the “righteousness of God” is not God’s power to salvation for everyone who believes such gospel.


The “righteousness of God” concerning sin and sinners revealed by the gospel of Christ.

In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe. We must remember that God sent Jesus into the world that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17).

Saved from what? Apostle Matthew wrote that Jesus will save God’s people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

Therefore, the mission of Jesus is to save God’s people from their sin. However, in order to do that, Jesus has to fulfill a law.

What is this law that Jesus was referring to? Since Jesus has to fulfill this law in order to accomplish his mission, then this law must have something to do with sin and the sinner.

What is this law called? This law is called the “righteousness of God.”

The Law states: “The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezek. 18:20).

In another verse, the Law says, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16).

How important is this law? Jesus said, “For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (Matt. 5:18).


Christ creates in himself the “one new man.” in order to fulfill his mission of saving people from their sin in conformity with the “righteousness of God.”

In order for Jesus to fulfill his mission of saving people from their sin in conformity with God’s righteousness, Jesus had to create in himself “one new man” (Eph. 2:15),“that he might “reconcile” both Jews and Gentiles to God in “one body” through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity” (Eph. 2:16).

This “one new man” is composed of Christ as the ”head” and the “church” as his “body” (Col. 1:18).

Apostle Paul wrote: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Rom. 8:2-4).

For He made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

This means that Christ, as “head” of the “one new man,” can die for the sins of his “body” in conformity with the “righteousness” of God.


Christ puts God’s Plan of Salvation into effect.

To “fulfill all righteousness,” Jesus had himself baptized by John (Matt. 3:15), not to have his sins forgiven, but to establish himself as “head of his body,” the “church.”

Next, Jesus “built his church” (Matt. 16:18), and God gave him to be” head” over all things to the “church,” which is his” body” (Eph. 1:22-23).


Christ is the savior of the church, his body.

The Bible tells us that Christ is the “savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23). Apostle Paul says it is the “church” that Christ “purchased” with his own blood (Acts 20:28).


Redemption, forgiveness of sins and reconciliation to God found only inside Christ’s body or church.

Apostle Paul also tells us that the kingdom of the Son of His love or the “church,” is “in whom” we have “redemption” through his blood, the “forgiveness” of sins (Col. 1:12-14). The “body” or “church” is “in whom” Jews and Greeks are “reconciled” to God through the cross (Eph. 2:16).


Christ’s invitation.

Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone “enters” by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (John 10:7,9).


The body or church of Christ is important to salvation.

In Acts 2:47, Apostle Peter says the Lord” added” to the church daily those who were “being” saved” contrary to the popular belief that the Lord adds to the church those that have “already” been saved.

In view of the foregoing, we can say with certainty that a so-called gospel that says the church is not important to salvation is false.

A so-called gospel that says that all one needs to do is accept Jesus as “Lord and personal savior” in order to have a “personal relationship” with him and be saved is definitely false.

People say that Christ is the savior, not the “church.” Well, that’s true. However, one cannot be saved by Christ through his blood, unless one becomes “one new man” with Christ inside his “body,” the “church.” Christ cannot die for anyone in violation of God’s righteousness concerning sin and the sinner.

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who you you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.


 
 Respond to this message   
INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 16 2016, 3:36 PM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).
-----------------------
You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who you you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."
----------------------
You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

 
 Respond to this message   
Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 17 2016, 12:13 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?
-----------------------
You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who you you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?
----------------------
You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

ME:

In Mt.5:1-16, Jesus is teaching about many things. Is Jesus teaching them the law and the prophets? This is why I said, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from, saying "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He there teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law. So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". We can understand that, at this point of Jesus teaching, Jesus knew what they were thinking about him from what He has just taught them in v.3-16. They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law.

Notice, after v.17-20, after addressing their wrong thinking about Him, he went on teaching them, from v. 21-48. This time, with specific reference to what is in the law. He refers to things in the law, and says something seemingly different. Let's take for instance v.21-22, Jesus taught,"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ BUT I SAY to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....". See also v.27-28, v. 31-32, v.33-37, v.38-42, v.43-44.

So, with the foregoing explanation, what you say, with regards to Mt.5:17, that Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, I'm sorry to say, is refuted, and so is wrong.
---------------------------

ME:

You said "Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Jesus tells them in v.20, teaching them "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus did not tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus neither did tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses. But what can be understood is that Jesus tells them this to mean that, they are mistaken, if they think that the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees will lead and have them enter the Kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is telling them, is that, UNLESS their righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, they will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, Jesus speaks of "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" in verse Mt.5:20. What do you say Jesus is referring to by "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"?

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 18 2016, 7:02 PM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).
-----------------------
You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who you you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.
----------------------
You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

ME:

In Mt.5:1-16, Jesus is teaching about many things. Is Jesus teaching them the law and the prophets? This is why I said, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from, saying "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He there teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law. So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". We can understand that, at this point of Jesus teaching, Jesus knew what they were thinking about him from what He has just taught them in v.3-16. They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law.

Notice, after v.17-20, after addressing their wrong thinking about Him, he went on teaching them, from v. 21-48. This time, with specific reference to what is in the law. He refers to things in the law, and says something seemingly different. Let's take for instance v.21-22, Jesus taught,"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ BUT I SAY to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....". See also v.27-28, v. 31-32, v.33-37, v.38-42, v.43-44.

So, with the foregoing explanation, what you say, with regards to Mt.5:17, that Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, I'm sorry to say, is refuted, and so is wrong.

INCQUISITOR:

In another thread you wrote: "But we must not read the scriptures starting off with a view already made up in our mind. We must ALWAYS start with scriptures with an open mind and heart, in reading and studying scriptures. We must not read verses and take them to mean what we want them to mean or expect them to say what we want to hear. Rather, we must let scriptures tell us what God wanted for us to know."

Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind.

You wrote, "They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law."

Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea? You have a perverted way of "letting scriptures tell you what God wants you to know!"

In Mt. 5:18, Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath?

Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?
---------------------------

ME:

You said "Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Jesus tells them in v.20, teaching them "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus did not tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus neither did tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses. But what can be understood is that Jesus tells them this to mean that, they are mistaken, if they think that the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees will lead and have them enter the Kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is telling them, is that, UNLESS their righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, they will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, Jesus speaks of "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" in verse Mt.5:20. What do you say Jesus is referring to by "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus did not have to tell his audience that "no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses." The Scribes and the Pharisees were fanatic about the observance of the law of Moses. Therefore, it stands to reason that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees by following the law of Moses, even if Jesus did not say this.

Apostle Paul wrote, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:1-4).

Israel is composed of Jews and among them are the Scribes and the Pharisees. To these people, righteousness means strict compliance with tradition and the laws of Moses.

To exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees, one must "submit to the righteousness of God."






 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 12:05 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?
-----------------------
You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who do you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.

ME:

Are you saying then that John 3:17 is saying that God did not send His Son into the "sinners" to condemn the "sinners", but that the "sinners" through Him might be saved? Or that God did not send His Son into the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" to condemn the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built", but that the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" through Him might be saved? Does not only sound ugly, but really becomes a weird and senseless statement.
----------------------
You said "In Matt. 5:17, Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, as most people are made to believe".

Mt.5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you read the verses before v.17, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from. What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He now teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law.

So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

And so, I will hold my comments on the rest of all that you say in your post, after this part, and hear what you have to say at this point.

INCQUISITOR:

Verse 17 has nothing to do with all the verses before it. Jesus was teaching his disciples (verse 1) and verse 17-20 is simply among these teachings.

It must be noted that God sent Jesus into the world to save Jews and Gentiles from their sins.

And the only way that Jesus could save people from their sin is to die for them as propitiation for their sins. Jesus, however, knew that God's law on sin and sinners requires that each person must die only for his own sin as written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Jesus taught the importance of this "law" or "righteousness" of God when he said, "till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, Jesus knew that he could not accomplish his mission to save his people from their sins unless he does something that would make his dying for the sins of others in conformity with God's law or righteousness concerning sins and sinners. Thus, Jesus built his church (Matt. 16:18), and God "put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him o be head over all things to the church, which is his body..." (Eph. 1:22-23). As apostle Paul wrote, Christ created in himself one new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of him as head and Jews and Gentiles as his body.

Christ is the head of the body, the church... (Col. 1:18), and Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).

Jesus taught, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Apostle Paul wrote, "For He (God) made him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Thus, the only way anyone can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees is by "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ." And the only way anyone can "become the righteousness of God in Christ," is by becoming a member of the church that Christ built, his body, so that his sins may be covered by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

ME:

In Mt.5:1-16, Jesus is teaching about many things. Is Jesus teaching them the law and the prophets? This is why I said, it would seem to his listeners, that He was teaching something new from the law and the prophets. This is where Jesus' statement in v. 17 was coming from, saying "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". What Jesus meant when He said here that He came to fulfill the law, is that He has come to fulfill all the commandments in the law, not destroy them by what He there teaches them. Also, He told them this, in view of those who breaks even one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so (v.18), such as are the Pharisees and scribes. He said they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, them who breaks even one of the least of the commandments in the Law. So, Jesus is not talking of any specific law that He will fulfill here, but speaks of all the commandments in the Law, even the least of all the commandments.

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill". We can understand that, at this point of Jesus teaching, Jesus knew what they were thinking about him from what He has just taught them in v.3-16. They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law.

Notice, after v.17-20, after addressing their wrong thinking about Him, he went on teaching them, from v. 21-48. This time, with specific reference to what is in the law. He refers to things in the law, and says something seemingly different. Let's take for instance v.21-22, Jesus taught,"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ BUT I SAY to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment....". See also v.27-28, v. 31-32, v.33-37, v.38-42, v.43-44.

So, with the foregoing explanation, what you say, with regards to Mt.5:17, that Jesus was not referring to the Law of Moses, I'm sorry to say, is refuted, and so is wrong.

INCQUISITOR:

In another thread you wrote: "But we must not read the scriptures starting off with a view already made up in our mind. We must ALWAYS start with scriptures with an open mind and heart, in reading and studying scriptures. We must not read verses and take them to mean what we want them to mean or expect them to say what we want to hear. Rather, we must let scriptures tell us what God wanted for us to know."

Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind.

You wrote, "They think that Jesus is destroying the Law, in the teachings they hear from him there and then. And so Jesus paused from teaching, to address this matter and clear that from their thinking, before He continue in His teaching about specific matters directly found in the law."

Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea? You have a perverted way of "letting scriptures tell you what God wants you to know!"

In Mt. 5:18, Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath?

Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?

ME:

You said "Your post shows that you read Mt. 5:1-16 and take them to mean or expect these verses to say what you want to hear, with a view already made up in your mind".

What view made up in my mind INCquisitor? If you will, refute what I posted with regards to Matthew 5:1-16 by pointing out the error and explain why you say it is an error. If you can't then, it stands to be not refuted.

You asked "Where did you get the idea that Jesus' audience "were thinking that Jesus is destroying the law?" Where in Mt 5:1-16 can you show support for your pre-conceived idea?"

And what pre-conceived idea of mine are you talking about?

Read and understand carefully what Jesus said in v. 17, "Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill".

"Do not THINK", Jesus told them. What can you deduce from this? He did not say this for no reason. He could have just simply said 'I did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill', if there is no reason to say 'Do not THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets'.

Read what Jesus taught them in v.3-16. Are these teachings found in the Law or would you say they are new? Read what Jesus, after telling them what He said in v.17-20, taught them in v.21-48. Are these not things in the law that He mentions, and to which He says something seemingly different or new?

You asked "Do you know that Jesus and his apostles broke the Sabbath? Isn't this enough proof that Mt. 5:17 is not about the law of Moses?"

I know that Jesus was always accused of breaking the Sabbath. Are you saying, by that, that He did not fulfill the O.T. Law, and sinned?

You take the law in v.17 as to refer to that said in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Are these not part of the O.T. laws?
---------------------------

ME:

You said "Can anyone exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees by following the laws of Moses? I don't think so, do you?

Jesus tells them in v.20, teaching them "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus did not tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus neither did tell them this to mean to tell them that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses. But what can be understood is that Jesus tells them this to mean that, they are mistaken, if they think that the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees will lead and have them enter the Kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is telling them, is that, UNLESS their righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, they will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, Jesus speaks of "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees" in verse Mt.5:20. What do you say Jesus is referring to by "the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"?

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus did not have to tell his audience that "no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees by following the law of Moses." The Scribes and the Pharisees were fanatic about the observance of the law of Moses. Therefore, it stands to reason that no one can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees by following the law of Moses, even if Jesus did not say this.

Apostle Paul wrote, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:1-4).

Israel is composed of Jews and among them are the Scribes and the Pharisees. To these people, righteousness means strict compliance with tradition and the laws of Moses.

To exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees, one must "submit to the righteousness of God."

ME:

Ok, let me try to get what you are saying here. You seem to speak of the righteousness of two, that of the Scribes and Pharisees, and that of God, and is not talking about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what they do and think to be right.

But in v.20, what Jesus is talking about is clearly about the Scribes and Pharisees' righteousness, as referring to what it is they do and think and even teach to be the righteousness one needs to have in order for one to enter the Kingdom of God, and concerns the righteousness of whom He speaks to, His audience. So, even if you find what you say stands to reason, it's not what makes it to be what is said and meant in the verse.

Here is v. 20 and I'll put in CAPS the important words you should not fail to take emphasis and consider in trying to understand what it says, "For I say to you, that UNLESS YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus says "UNLESS", meaning, 'except on the condition that'. So, Jesus is telling them of a condition. What is that? That is, YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. The verse says "YOUR" righteousness. So, the condition is with regards one's righteousness as compared to that of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Clearly, the righteousness of God is not in view here in verse 20. The verse says "YOU" will by no means enter the kingdom of Heaven. What Jesus says here concerns them to whom He says these things, and is with regards the matter of entering the Kingdom of God, in relation to the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven on the condition that THEIR righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees, or that, they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven if their righteousness does not exceed that of the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. That is all there is in there. There is nothing Jesus said about how they will exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. To say that the verse speak of such thing here is simply going beyond what is written there. I hope that you now are able to understand the verse.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 7:41 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?



 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 10:07 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?

ME:

No. I'm not at all saying I know more than you do, about the promises that Paul speaks of. I am just trying to understand what it is you teach as written in your post.

Yes, you did say that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. That is why I ask these questions to be clarified. For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell.

So, please tell me what you understand what the "promises" that God gave to them, which Paul speaks about.

 
 Respond to this message   
INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 1:23 PM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?

ME:

No. I'm not at all saying I know more than you do, about the promises that Paul speaks of. I am just trying to understand what it is you teach as written in your post.

Yes, you did say that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. That is why I ask these questions to be clarified. For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell.

So, please tell me what you understand what the "promises" that God gave to them, which Paul speaks about.

INCQUISITOR:

You say, "For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell."

Please cite the scriptures relating to these so-called "promises" that God gave to the fathers so we can both go over these together and see if your understanding is correct.



 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 21 2016, 4:20 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.

ME:

Romans 11:11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

If you didn't know, Paul tells us in Rom.11:11 regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. What is this salvation that Paul speaks about here? Is it not salvation from the wages of sin and is unto eternal life?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Paul here speaks of a "promise". Promise to whom? To those who are of the law. Who do you say these people are? And to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Who do you say these people are?

Now, what is this promise all about? Is this not about salvation from the wages of sin, and salvation unto eternal life?
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.

ME:

See my post above about Rom.11:11, and Rom. 4:16.

The matter under this segment of our discussion here is your teaching that the ancient people of God were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. So, I asked what you have to say about this, through the questions I asked:

If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right?

What does that mean then?

It means then that they are unsaved, since their sins were not paid for anyone, that then they all died for their own sins. They all then, having no savior such as Christ to pay for their sins, will suffer the penalty of their sins.

This is what becomes of them relative to your teaching.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?

ME:

No. I'm not at all saying I know more than you do, about the promises that Paul speaks of. I am just trying to understand what it is you teach as written in your post.

Yes, you did say that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. That is why I ask these questions to be clarified. For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell.

So, please tell me what you understand what the "promises" that God gave to them, which Paul speaks about.

INCQUISITOR:

You say, "For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell."

Please cite the scriptures relating to these so-called "promises" that God gave to the fathers so we can both go over these together and see if your understanding is correct.

ME:

See what I have posted above regarding Rom.11:11 and Rom.4:16.

 
 Respond to this message   
INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 22 2016, 6:07 PM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.

ME:

Romans 11:11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

If you didn't know, Paul tells us in Rom.11:11 regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. What is this salvation that Paul speaks about here? Is it not salvation from the wages of sin and is unto eternal life?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Paul here speaks of a "promise". Promise to whom? To those who are of the law. Who do you say these people are? And to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Who do you say these people are?

Now, what is this promise all about? Is this not about salvation from the wages of sin, and salvation unto eternal life?

INCQUISITOR:

I cannot trust you speculation that the promise of God to the fathers is about salvation from the wages of sin and salvation unto eternal life. I know that God's promises to the fathers are written in the Old Testament. All I'm asking from you is to show me an OT scripture to support your speculation.
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.

ME:

See my post above about Rom.11:11, and Rom. 4:16.

The matter under this segment of our discussion here is your teaching that the ancient people of God were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. So, I asked what you have to say about this, through the questions I asked:

If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right?

What does that mean then?

It means then that they are unsaved, since their sins were not paid for anyone, that then they all died for their own sins. They all then, having no savior such as Christ to pay for their sins, will suffer the penalty of their sins.

This is what becomes of them relative to your teaching.

INCQUISITOR:

God's law written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 provides that "each soul will die for his own sin." There is no scripture that says Christ died for their sins. If you know of one, please show me. Therefore, these ancient people of God died for their own sins.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?

ME:

No. I'm not at all saying I know more than you do, about the promises that Paul speaks of. I am just trying to understand what it is you teach as written in your post.

Yes, you did say that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. That is why I ask these questions to be clarified. For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell.

So, please tell me what you understand what the "promises" that God gave to them, which Paul speaks about.

INCQUISITOR:

You say, "For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell."

Please cite the scriptures relating to these so-called "promises" that God gave to the fathers so we can both go over these together and see if your understanding is correct.

ME:

See what I have posted above regarding Rom.11:11 and Rom.4:16.

INCQUISITOR:

In that case, I repeat what I posted earlier, "I cannot trust you speculation that the promise of God to the fathers is about salvation from the wages of sin and salvation unto eternal life. I know that God's promises to the fathers are written in the Old Testament. All I'm asking from you is to show me an OT scripture to support your speculation."


 
 Respond to this message   
Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 23 2016, 8:14 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.

ME:

Romans 11:11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

If you didn't know, Paul tells us in Rom.11:11 regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. What is this salvation that Paul speaks about here? Is it not salvation from the wages of sin and is unto eternal life?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Paul here speaks of a "promise". Promise to whom? To those who are of the law. Who do you say these people are? And to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Who do you say these people are?

Now, what is this promise all about? Is this not about salvation from the wages of sin, and salvation unto eternal life?

INCQUISITOR:

I cannot trust you speculation that the promise of God to the fathers is about salvation from the wages of sin and salvation unto eternal life. I know that God's promises to the fathers are written in the Old Testament. All I'm asking from you is to show me an OT scripture to support your speculation.

ME:

I am not speculating INCquisitor. The scriptures are before you very eyes to read and examine them yourself. Rom. 4:16 & Rom. 11:11

In Rom. 11:11, what salvation has come to the Gentiles, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

In Rom.4:16, what promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

Perhaps you don't see that, that's why you say that it's all speculation. That's understandable.

In addition to these, consider the following verses, specially those in CAPS:

Gen.12:3
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.


Genesis 28:14
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM"

Acts 3:25-26
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made WITH OUR FATHERS, saying to Abraham, ‘And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Gal.3:16
16 Now to ABRAHAM and HIS SEED were the PROMISES made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your SEED,”[i] who is CHRIST.
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.

ME:

See my post above about Rom.11:11, and Rom. 4:16.

The matter under this segment of our discussion here is your teaching that the ancient people of God were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. So, I asked what you have to say about this, through the questions I asked:

If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right?

What does that mean then?

It means then that they are unsaved, since their sins were not paid for anyone, that then they all died for their own sins. They all then, having no savior such as Christ to pay for their sins, will suffer the penalty of their sins.

This is what becomes of them relative to your teaching.

INCQUISITOR:

God's law written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 provides that "each soul will die for his own sin." There is no scripture that says Christ died for their sins. If you know of one, please show me. Therefore, these ancient people of God died for their own sins.

ME:

So, you teach that all the ancient people of God died for their own sins as per Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. And clearly that means that they were not saved, right? And if they were not saved, then they will suffer in hell, no different from all who are not God's people who also died then for their own sins as per Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, and will suffer in hell.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

You seem to know more than I about the "promises" that apostle Paul speaks of. Do these "promises" concern the salvation of God's ancient people from their sins?

I said that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin, didn't I?

If you believe that these "promises" concern God's promise to save His ancient people from their sins, why don't you tell me what these "promises" are?

ME:

No. I'm not at all saying I know more than you do, about the promises that Paul speaks of. I am just trying to understand what it is you teach as written in your post.

Yes, you did say that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. That is why I ask these questions to be clarified. For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell.

So, please tell me what you understand what the "promises" that God gave to them, which Paul speaks about.

INCQUISITOR:

You say, "For I understand that the "promises" spoken of by Paul, that God gave them concerns their salvation from the penalty of sin, that is, from punishment in hell."

Please cite the scriptures relating to these so-called "promises" that God gave to the fathers so we can both go over these together and see if your understanding is correct.

ME:

See what I have posted above regarding Rom.11:11 and Rom.4:16.

INCQUISITOR:

In that case, I repeat what I posted earlier, "I cannot trust you speculation that the promise of God to the fathers is about salvation from the wages of sin and salvation unto eternal life. I know that God's promises to the fathers are written in the Old Testament. All I'm asking from you is to show me an OT scripture to support your speculation."

ME:

In that case, I'll copy paste what I posted earlier.

I am not speculating INCquisitor. The scriptures are before you very eyes to read and examine them yourself. Rom. 4:16 & Rom. 11:11

In Rom. 11:11, what salvation has come to the Gentiles, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

In Rom.4:16, what promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

Perhaps you don't see that, that's why you say that it's all speculation. That's understandable.

In addition to these, consider the following verses, specially those in CAPS:

Gen.12:3
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.


Genesis 28:14
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM"

Acts 3:25-26
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made WITH OUR FATHERS, saying to Abraham, ‘And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Gal.3:16
16 Now to ABRAHAM and HIS SEED were the PROMISES made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your SEED,”[i] who is CHRIST.

 
 Respond to this message   
INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 24 2016, 10:38 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.

ME:

Romans 11:11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

If you didn't know, Paul tells us in Rom.11:11 regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. What is this salvation that Paul speaks about here? Is it not salvation from the wages of sin and is unto eternal life?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Paul here speaks of a "promise". Promise to whom? To those who are of the law. Who do you say these people are? And to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Who do you say these people are?

Now, what is this promise all about? Is this not about salvation from the wages of sin, and salvation unto eternal life?

INCQUISITOR:

I cannot trust you speculation that the promise of God to the fathers is about salvation from the wages of sin and salvation unto eternal life. I know that God's promises to the fathers are written in the Old Testament. All I'm asking from you is to show me an OT scripture to support your speculation.

ME:

I am not speculating INCquisitor. The scriptures are before you very eyes to read and examine them yourself. Rom. 4:16 & Rom. 11:11

In Rom. 11:11, what salvation has come to the Gentiles, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

In Rom.4:16, what promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

Perhaps you don't see that, that's why you say that it's all speculation. That's understandable.

INCQUISITOR:

Rom. 11:11 sure says "salvation has come to the Gentiles" and that means salvation from the wages of sin, BUT the verse says NOTHING about God promising His ancient people salvation from the wages of sin.

Rom. 4:16 also does not say that salvation from the wages of sin was promised to God's ancient people. The verse says the promise was made to "Abraham's seed" which the Bible says is "Christ" Gal. 3:16).

Hence, I still await your proof scriptures to support your false belief that God's ancient people were promised salvation from the wages of sin.
----------------------------
In addition to these, consider the following verses, specially those in CAPS:

Gen.12:3
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Genesis 28:14
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM"

Acts 3:25-26
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made WITH OUR FATHERS, saying to Abraham, ‘And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Gal.3:16
16 Now to ABRAHAM and HIS SEED were the PROMISES made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your SEED,”[i] who is CHRIST.

INCQUISITOR:

Gen. 12:3 says, "in you all the families shall be BLESSED" and Gen. 28:14 says, "in you and in your seed all the families shall be BLESSED." These verses don't say anything about God promising these ancient people salvation from the wages of sin. As usual, you SPECULATE that "BLESSED" means salvation from the wages of sin which, of course, is FALSE.

Luke 19:9 does not say anything about God promising salvation from the wages of sin to His ancient people. Zacchaeus was a chief tax collector whom Jesus referred to a "son of Abraham." Zaccheaeus was, of course, not a son of Abraham in the flesh but a son of Abraham in the promise.

Gal. 3:16 proves that God did not promise salvation from the wages of sin to His ancient people but to Christ who is Abraham's SEED.
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.

ME:

See my post above about Rom.11:11, and Rom. 4:16.

The matter under this segment of our discussion here is your teaching that the ancient people of God were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. So, I asked what you have to say about this, through the questions I asked:

If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right?

What does that mean then?

It means then that they are unsaved, since their sins were not paid for anyone, that then they all died for their own sins. They all then, having no savior such as Christ to pay for their sins, will suffer the penalty of their sins.

This is what becomes of them relative to your teaching.

INCQUISITOR:

God's law written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 provides that "each soul will die for his own sin." There is no scripture that says Christ died for their sins. If you know of one, please show me. Therefore, these ancient people of God died for their own sins.

ME:

So, you teach that all the ancient people of God died for their own sins as per Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. And clearly that means that they were not saved, right? And if they were not saved, then they will suffer in hell, no different from all who are not God's people who also died then for their own sins as per Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, and will suffer in hell.

INCQUISITOR:

You are correct. And that also goes for people in these last days who do not want to hear or does not believe the TRUE gospel of Christ. They will die in their own sin.
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

These are the promises that God gave His ancient people. You will note that none of these promises concern salvation from the wages of sin:

Gen.12:3
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Genesis 28:14
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM"

Acts 3:25-26
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made WITH OUR FATHERS, saying to Abraham, ‘And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”


 
 Respond to this message   
Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 25 2016, 7:03 AM 

ME:

You said "The Bible teaches that God sent Jesus to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)".

Who do you say are "His people" that Jesus was to saved? Are they Jew or Gentiles? Are "His people" sinners, whom Jesus was to save from their sins? Does Jesus know who they are? Who are they?

INQUISITOR:

Matthew 1:21 reads: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins."

At the time the angel said this to Joseph, Jesus was still in the womb of Mary, his mother. At that time, Jesus did not yet know who HIS people are.

However, the Bible tells us that the people whom Jesus will save from their sins are Jews and Gentiles who heard his gospel of salvation, believed (Rom. 1:16) and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise..." (Eph. 1:13). The Bible also tells us that these people who heard the gospel of Christ, believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, were "delivered (by the Father) from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the son of His love (the church that Christ built), IN WHOM they have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

In other words, the people whom Jesus will save are members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18), his body (Eph. 1:22-23).

ME:

Now, what have you to say of them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., prior to the church that Christ built? Are they saved? If they are, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I don't think we should. God had a covenant with His ancient people which differs from His covenant with us in these last days.

God promised to save His ancient people from their enemies if they obey all His commands. God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Instead, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16; Exek. 18:20).

ME:

Should we concern ourselves with the ancient people of God? I brought this matter up to clarify what you say here about those who are saved in relation to the church. I'm just trying to clarify about what it is you posted in the OP, with regards Mt. 1:21.

I gather that you are saying, concerning them who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., that they are saved, yet not by Jesus Christ, and that they don't belong to the church of God. Is that what you are saying?

INCQUISITOR:

I said God promised His ancient people salvation FROM THEIR ENEMIES if they obey His commands. I did not say that God's ancient people were promised salvation from their sins or the wages of sin.

What the Bible teaches though, is that the ancient people of God underwent annual cleansing of their sins through the high priests. Whether these annual cleansing was enough to make them inherit God's gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23), is a matter between them and God.

Before the birth of Christ, only Jews were God's people. They were the nation of God. Of course they were not members of the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

The ONLY way that Gentiles can be made fellow citizens with the Jews (Eph. 2:19) is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles to be RECONCILED to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16). That ONE BODY is the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:18).

ME:

So, even while you have read scriptures, you are saying that you know nothing with the matter of the salvation of ancient people, of men who believed in God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc.? I'm really surprised that you can't see and understand anything in scriptures regarding this.

Anyway, now, It is clear to me what it is you teach regarding this matter. And I would have to say that what you teach here is false and not in keeping with God's words in scriptures, at least in the scriptures as we have them in the Bible that we read today.

INCQUISITOR:

You say what I teach regarding the salvation of the ancient people of God is false and not in keeping with God's words in scripture.

However, you have not shown me scriptures to prove your belief that ancient people of God like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

Falsely accusing someone is I'd say, childish.

ME:

Romans 11:11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

If you didn't know, Paul tells us in Rom.11:11 regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. What is this salvation that Paul speaks about here? Is it not salvation from the wages of sin and is unto eternal life?

Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Paul here speaks of a "promise". Promise to whom? To those who are of the law. Who do you say these people are? And to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Who do you say these people are?

Now, what is this promise all about? Is this not about salvation from the wages of sin, and salvation unto eternal life?

INCQUISITOR:

I cannot trust you speculation that the promise of God to the fathers is about salvation from the wages of sin and salvation unto eternal life. I know that God's promises to the fathers are written in the Old Testament. All I'm asking from you is to show me an OT scripture to support your speculation.

ME:

I am not speculating INCquisitor. The scriptures are before you very eyes to read and examine them yourself. Rom. 4:16 & Rom. 11:11

In Rom. 11:11, what salvation has come to the Gentiles, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

In Rom.4:16, what promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, but salvation from the wages of sin and unto eternal life?

Perhaps you don't see that, that's why you say that it's all speculation. That's understandable.

INCQUISITOR:

Rom. 11:11 sure says "salvation has come to the Gentiles" and that means salvation from the wages of sin, BUT the verse says NOTHING about God promising His ancient people salvation from the wages of sin.

Rom. 4:16 also does not say that salvation from the wages of sin was promised to God's ancient people. The verse says the promise was made to "Abraham's seed" which the Bible says is "Christ" Gal. 3:16).

Hence, I still await your proof scriptures to support your false belief that God's ancient people were promised salvation from the wages of sin.

ME:

With regards Rom. 11:11, regarding the people of God, the Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, that they have stumbled. Paul said that through their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In Rom.11:11, we can understand that there is salvation of the Israelites, only that, because they have stumbled, this salvation has come to the Gentiles. You said "salvation has come to the Gentiles" and that means salvation from the wages of sin. And this salvation that has come to the gentiles, such salvation which was with the Israelites. If you don't see that, and say "BUT the verse says NOTHING about God promising His ancient people salvation from the wages of sin", well, that has something to do with your sight. The verse speaks about jealousy. What jealousy do you think that is about?

With regards to Rom. 4:16, the verse says the promise might be sure to ALL THE SEED. Can't you not understand what that means?
----------------------------
In addition to these, consider the following verses, specially those in CAPS:

Gen.12:3
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Genesis 28:14
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM"

Acts 3:25-26
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made WITH OUR FATHERS, saying to Abraham, ‘And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Gal.3:16
16 Now to ABRAHAM and HIS SEED were the PROMISES made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your SEED,”[i] who is CHRIST.

INCQUISITOR:

Gen. 12:3 says, "in you all the families shall be BLESSED" and Gen. 28:14 says, "in you and in your seed all the families shall be BLESSED." These verses don't say anything about God promising these ancient people salvation from the wages of sin. As usual, you SPECULATE that "BLESSED" means salvation from the wages of sin which, of course, is FALSE.

Luke 19:9 does not say anything about God promising salvation from the wages of sin to His ancient people. Zacchaeus was a chief tax collector whom Jesus referred to a "son of Abraham." Zaccheaeus was, of course, not a son of Abraham in the flesh but a son of Abraham in the promise.

Gal. 3:16 proves that God did not promise salvation from the wages of sin to His ancient people but to Christ who is Abraham's SEED.

ME:

Gen. 12:13 says "IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED". The "YOU" there refers to Abraham. In Gen. 28:14, it says "IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED". "YOU" there refers to Abraham, and "YOUR SEED" there refers to Christ. IN them then, ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED". You said "you SPECULATE that "BLESSED" means salvation from the wages of sin which, of course, is FALSE". So, tell me, what does that scriptures, "ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED" mean then? The same was said and referred to in Acts 3:25. What does this reference to the OT verse in the context of Acts 3:25 was out to mean?

With regards Luke 19:9, you said "Zaccheaeus was, of course, not a son of Abraham in the flesh but a son of Abraham in the promise". The verse says, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM". Salvation has come to him. It is BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM. Why is that? That is with regards the promise. What promise is that? That promise God made to Abraham, what else.

With regards Gal. 3:16, to whom were the promises made? IS it not to Abraham (God's ancient people) and to his seed, that is Christ? And what is included in these promises, but salvation from the wages of sin and eternal life? To say that the promises were only to Abraham's seed is a subtraction to scriptures. For the verse clearly says "Now to ABRAHAM and HIS SEED were the PROMISES made".
--------------------------
You teach here that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. Do you not believe that the ancient people of God,like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, etc., were saved? For you say that, God decreed that each soul shall die for his own sin. Now, if you do believe that they are saved, who saved them? And how were they saved? Do they belong to the church?

INCQUISITOR:

I have not come across an Old Testament verse that says God promised to save His ancient people, meaning the Jews, from their sins. I also am not saying that God promised His ancient people eternal life if their sins were forgiven. What I'm certain of is, God's ancient people, the Jews, did not belong to the church that Christ built.

ME:

So, again, you surprised me that you can't see and understand anything regarding whether Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, whether they were saved, and if they will have eternal life or not, by believing in God.

So, it is clear, that what you teach is that God's ancient people, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, don't belong to the church. If so, these people were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right? What does that mean then? Does that not mean that they are unsaved?

INCQUISITOR:

I don't blame you for being surprised at what I'm saying because you are hearing these things for the first time. Nobody has ever preached the truth before.

The truth hurts but yes, these ancient people of God were not members of the church that Christ built. And since they were not members of the church that Christ built, they did not receive God's gift of eternal life in accordance with God's Plan of salvation for us in these last days.

As I said earlier, eternal life for the ancient people of God is between them and God.

ME:

See my post above about Rom.11:11, and Rom. 4:16.

The matter under this segment of our discussion here is your teaching that the ancient people of God were not saved by Christ and that Christ did not pay for their sins. So, I asked what you have to say about this, through the questions I asked:

If that were the case, then that would mean that each of them have died for their own sin, right?

What does that mean then?

It means then that they are unsaved, since their sins were not paid for anyone, that then they all died for their own sins. They all then, having no savior such as Christ to pay for their sins, will suffer the penalty of their sins.

This is what becomes of them relative to your teaching.

INCQUISITOR:

God's law written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 provides that "each soul will die for his own sin." There is no scripture that says Christ died for their sins. If you know of one, please show me. Therefore, these ancient people of God died for their own sins.

ME:

So, you teach that all the ancient people of God died for their own sins as per Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. And clearly that means that they were not saved, right? And if they were not saved, then they will suffer in hell, no different from all who are not God's people who also died then for their own sins as per Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, and will suffer in hell.

INCQUISITOR:

You are correct. And that also goes for people in these last days who do not want to hear or does not believe the TRUE gospel of Christ. They will die in their own sin.

ME:

So, clearly now, you teach that no ancient people, whether people of God or not, were saved and will all go to hell, even while scriptures speaks of ancient men of God as saved. Ancient men such as are spoken of in Hebrews 11, where this said regarding them, "God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them".
------------------------
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

In the above verses, I cited them to show you that scriptures speaks of "promises" made to the OT people of God. You teach that God did not promise to save His ancient people from their sin. So, if God did not, could you tell me what are the "promises" God made to them?

INCQUISITOR:

These are the promises that God gave His ancient people. You will note that none of these promises concern salvation from the wages of sin:

Gen.12:3
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Genesis 28:14
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and IN YOU and IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.

Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today SALVATION has come to this house, BECAUSE HE IS A SON OF ABRAHAM"

Acts 3:25-26
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made WITH OUR FATHERS, saying to Abraham, ‘And IN YOU ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

ME:

See my comments above regarding these verses.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Anyone who desires to attain eternal life must heed the gospel of Christ.

February 19 2017, 12:12 PM 

Apostle Paul says the "gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek" (Rom. 1:16).

The "gospel of Christ" is simply the "teaching or revelation" of Christ concerning God's PLAN of salvation. After all, God "sent Christ into the world that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17).

Clearly, what God promised Abraham, Jacob and Isaac is not pertinent to how one may enter the kingdom of heaven and attain eternal life.

What matters is what Jesus says in Matt. 5:20 to wit: "For I say to you, that UNLESS your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Therefore, the pertinent question to ask yourself is, "How can MY righteousness EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?"

How were the scribes and Pharisees "righteous" before the eyes of God? How can YOU be "righteous" before the eyes of God.

Apostle John wrote that the "advocate to the Father is Jesus Christ, the righteous" (1 John 2:1). How was Christ "righteous" before the eyes of God?

The scribes and Pharisees were "righteous" by diligently observing the law of Moses and annual offering of blood by the high priest for their sins to be forgiven ANNUALLY.

But according to Jesus, this does not warrant anyone's entering the kingdom of heaven. One needs to EXCEED the "righteousness" of the scribes and Pharisees to enter the kingdom of heaven.

How can one EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?

Jesus is "righteous" because he has no sin. He was "sanctified" by the Father (John 10:36). In other words, Jesus was "made righteous" by the Father. Naturally, the "righteousness" of Jesus EXCEEDS the "righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

Therefore, for one to EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, one's sins have to be forgiven and be RECONCILED to God.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

INCquisitor evades the arguments...can't refute.

April 15 2017, 1:18 AM 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/84590/message/1480086214/Re-+The+Gospel+Of+Christ
--------------------------------

INCquisitor:

Apostle Paul says the "gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek" (Rom. 1:16).

Me:

True.

INCquisitor:

The "gospel of Christ" is simply the "teaching or revelation" of Christ concerning God's PLAN of salvation. After all, God "sent Christ into the world that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17).

Clearly, what God promised Abraham, Jacob and Isaac is not pertinent to how one may enter the kingdom of heaven and attain eternal life.

Me:

False.

INCquisitor:

What matters is what Jesus says in Matt. 5:20 to wit: "For I say to you, that UNLESS your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Me:

True.

INCquisitor:

Therefore, the pertinent question to ask yourself is, "How can MY righteousness EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?"

Me:

Correct.

INCquisitor:

How were the scribes and Pharisees "righteous" before the eyes of God?
.... The scribes and Pharisees were "righteous" by diligently observing the law of Moses and annual offering of blood by the high priest for their sins to be forgiven ANNUALLY.

Me:

False.

Righteousness is not really much in the doing but in the heart. Romans 10:10 says, "For with the HEART man BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." and Romans 9:30 says "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness WHICH IS OF FAITH."

Scriptures speaks about what righteousness the scribes and Pharisees have:

Matthew 23 [CAPS MINE]
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The SCRIBES and the PHARISEES sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever THEY bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for THEY SAY, AND DO NOT.
4 For THEY bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but THEY themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But ALL THEIR WORKS THEY DO for TO BE SEEN OF MEN: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
.
.
.
13 But woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto YOU, YE BLIND GUIDES, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 YE FOOLS and BLIND: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
.
.
.
23 Woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 YE BLIND GUIDES, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 THOU BLIND PHARISEE, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so YE also OUTWARDLY APPEAR RIGHTEOUS UNTO MEN, BUT WITHIN YE ARE FULL OF HYPOCRISY AND INIQUITY.

29 Woe unto YOU, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPCRITES! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
33 YE SERPENTS, YE generation of VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

INCquisitor:

How can YOU be "righteous" before the eyes of God.

Apostle John wrote that the "advocate to the Father is Jesus Christ, the righteous" (1 John 2:1). How was Christ "righteous" before the eyes of God?

The scribes and Pharisees were "righteous" by diligently observing the law of Moses and annual offering of blood by the high priest for their sins to be forgiven ANNUALLY.

But according to Jesus, this does not warrant anyone's entering the kingdom of heaven. One needs to EXCEED the "righteousness" of the scribes and Pharisees to enter the kingdom of heaven.

How can one EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?

Jesus is "righteous" because he has no sin. He was "sanctified" by the Father (John 10:36). In other words, Jesus was "made righteous" by the Father. Naturally, the "righteousness" of Jesus EXCEEDS the "righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

Therefore, for one to EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, one's sins have to be forgiven and be RECONCILED to God.

Me:

Believe and have faith in God, even in His Son Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 7:54 AM 

You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who do you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.

ME:

Are you saying then that John 3:17 is saying that God did not send His Son into the "sinners" to condemn the "sinners", but that the "sinners" through Him might be saved? Or that God did not send His Son into the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" to condemn the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built", but that the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" through Him might be saved? Does not only sound ugly, but really becomes a weird and senseless statement.

INCQUISITOR:

The word of God is beautifully written but you make it sound ugly.

God sent Jesus to save SINNERS from their sins (Mt. 1:32). It is as simple as that. Jesus used "world" (John 3:17) to describe those whom God sent him to SAVE. You make the word of God ugly because you refuse to believe Him. That's your problem.

The church that Christ built (Mt. 16:18) is an integral part of God's Plan of Salvation. Christ would not have built his church if it weren't. The ONLY WAY that one an be "IN Christ" and be saved, is by being a member of his body, the church that he built.


 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 10:11 AM 

You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who do you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.

ME:

Are you saying then that John 3:17 is saying that God did not send His Son into the "sinners" to condemn the "sinners", but that the "sinners" through Him might be saved? Or that God did not send His Son into the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" to condemn the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built", but that the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" through Him might be saved? Does not only sound ugly, but really becomes a weird and senseless statement.

INCQUISITOR:

The word of God is beautifully written but you make it sound ugly.

God sent Jesus to save SINNERS from their sins (Mt. 1:32). It is as simple as that. Jesus used "world" (John 3:17) to describe those whom God sent him to SAVE. You make the word of God ugly because you refuse to believe Him. That's your problem.

The church that Christ built (Mt. 16:18) is an integral part of God's Plan of Salvation. Christ would not have built his church if it weren't. The ONLY WAY that one an be "IN Christ" and be saved, is by being a member of his body, the church that he built.

ME:

No, INCquisitor. I just tried to substitute the meaning you make of "world" in the verse to see how it will be. And apparently it makes the verse sound ugly and weird and senseless.

And by that alone, it just shows that such take of "world" in the verse, is evidently erroneous.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 20 2016, 1:27 PM 

You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who do you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.

ME:

Are you saying then that John 3:17 is saying that God did not send His Son into the "sinners" to condemn the "sinners", but that the "sinners" through Him might be saved? Or that God did not send His Son into the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" to condemn the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built", but that the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" through Him might be saved? Does not only sound ugly, but really becomes a weird and senseless statement.

INCQUISITOR:

The word of God is beautifully written but you make it sound ugly.

God sent Jesus to save SINNERS from their sins (Mt. 1:32). It is as simple as that. Jesus used "world" (John 3:17) to describe those whom God sent him to SAVE. You make the word of God ugly because you refuse to believe Him. That's your problem.

The church that Christ built (Mt. 16:18) is an integral part of God's Plan of Salvation. Christ would not have built his church if it weren't. The ONLY WAY that one an be "IN Christ" and be saved, is by being a member of his body, the church that he built.

ME:

No, INCquisitor. I just tried to substitute the meaning you make of "world" in the verse to see how it will be. And apparently it makes the verse sound ugly and weird and senseless.

And by that alone, it just shows that such take of "world" in the verse, is evidently erroneous.

INCQUISITOR:

You say my take of the "world" is erroneous, yet you can't tell me what "world" was Jesus talking about.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: The Gospel Of Christ

November 21 2016, 4:25 AM 

You said "Jesus said that God sent him into the world that through him the world might be saved (John 3:17)".

Who do you say the "world" refer to? All of man or not?

INCQUISITOR:

Anyone who is NOT a member of the church that Christ built is the "world."

ME:

The "world" in John 3:17, is mentioned trice. Does "world" have the same meaning in all of the times it was used in the verse, for you?

INCQUISITOR:

Yes, the "world" mentioned in John 3:17 has the same meaning in all the three times that it was mentioned in the verse. They all refer to "sinners" or people who are not members of the church that Christ built.

Before God sent Jesus into the "world," the "world" was populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) who are Jews and Gentiles. John 3:17 says, God sent Jesus into the "world," that the "world" through him might be SAVED." It must be noted that Jesus was named Jesus for he will SAVE his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).

The Bible teaches that it is the church that Christ built that Christ purchased with his blood (Act 20:28). The Bible also teaches that Christ is the savior of the church, his body (Ephesians 5:23).

Therefore, in order for the "world" to be saved, it must be "reconciled to God in ONE BODY through the cross" (Eph. 2:16). This ONE BODY is the church that Christ built.

ME:

Are you saying then that John 3:17 is saying that God did not send His Son into the "sinners" to condemn the "sinners", but that the "sinners" through Him might be saved? Or that God did not send His Son into the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" to condemn the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built", but that the "people who are not members of the church that Christ built" through Him might be saved? Does not only sound ugly, but really becomes a weird and senseless statement.

INCQUISITOR:

The word of God is beautifully written but you make it sound ugly.

God sent Jesus to save SINNERS from their sins (Mt. 1:32). It is as simple as that. Jesus used "world" (John 3:17) to describe those whom God sent him to SAVE. You make the word of God ugly because you refuse to believe Him. That's your problem.

The church that Christ built (Mt. 16:18) is an integral part of God's Plan of Salvation. Christ would not have built his church if it weren't. The ONLY WAY that one an be "IN Christ" and be saved, is by being a member of his body, the church that he built.

ME:

No, INCquisitor. I just tried to substitute the meaning you make of "world" in the verse to see how it will be. And apparently it makes the verse sound ugly and weird and senseless.

And by that alone, it just shows that such take of "world" in the verse, is evidently erroneous.

INCQUISITOR:

You say my take of the "world" is erroneous, yet you can't tell me what "world" was Jesus talking about.

ME:

It is you who is defending your teaching here INCquisitor, not me. You have posted your doctrine and I'm just trying to comprehend and see if it is in keeping with scriptures or not, or if it is correct or not. And apparently, this is the outcome, that it is erroneous.

 
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