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Christ died for our sins. Can you tell how?

April 20 2017 at 1:10 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)

 
Can you tell how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures?


 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

The scriptures say Christ became sin for us, while of course remaining innocent.

April 30 2017, 1:26 AM 

He died in our place, so we won't have to die in the lake of fire. Without his death, all of us would die in the lake of fire, after all scriptures say that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. So it is not like for example in modern Judaism, where people believe they can be forgiven without a blood sacrifice. In reality this is impossible. So a holy sacrifice was necessary, the only sinless person had to die for us, that was Christ.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

The question is: HOW

May 3 2017, 7:12 AM 

Can you tell HOW THAT Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures?


 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

The scriptures prophesied he would be pierced, and he was and soon he died.

May 13 2017, 10:45 PM 

That was Zech. 12:10.
And concerning that he died for our sins, that too was prophesied, by Isaiah, in 53:5-6.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

How was His death on the cross be for the sin of the world?

May 13 2017, 10:52 PM 


 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

He died for our sins, 1 Cor. 15:3, so for the sins of those in the world who would

May 13 2017, 11:51 PM 

ever become saved. So not for the sins of those destined for the lake of fire.
For example 1 John 3:16 says: "The way he came to know love was that he laid down his life for us...". So he died for us saints. Had he died for the sins of those destined for the lake of fire, then their sins would be paid for too, they would get eternal life. Similarly Acts 20:28 says "... the church of God that he acquired with the blood of his own". So God acquired only the church with the blood of his own Son, who then paid for the sins of only the church, with his blood. Eph. 5:25 says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her". So he died for the sins of the church. Not for everybody in the world, or else they would all be saved.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Yes Jesus died for our sins and we know why. But...

May 14 2017, 6:10 AM 

HOW is it that his death was for the sins of the world, and not just a death like the death of those who were crucified with him who died because of their crimes, or like an innocent man who was condemned to death for the crime of murder that he did not commit? How is his death on the cross, a death for the sin of the world? Was it because he was innocent of the crime he was charge of?

How?

 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

Because he was the only sinless human, then this way he could be a perfect

May 14 2017, 5:56 PM 

sacrifice for our sins. So it is not because he was innocent of the crime he was charged of, but he was innocent of all sins.
As Heb. 9:22 tells us "According to the Law, almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness".
The Old Testament blood sacrifices required unblemished clean animals, and this pointed forward to the unblemished pure sacrifice of the only sinless human. Without the shedding of his blood there would be no forgiveness of sins. And Jesus was the only sinless human. Babies are not sinless, so they could not be sacrificed, the Old Testament made that very clear. The Canaanites and other nations of the holy land evidently thought that babies are sinless, so they were sacrificing some of them. But it was a great sin. Only Jesus could be sacrificed, he was the only perfect human sacrifice.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

How is it that his death on the cross is a sacrifice for the sin of the world?

May 15 2017, 11:36 AM 

Because he was innocent of all sin, that made then his death on the cross a sacrifice for the sin of the world?

 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

Because God wanted a perfect sacrifice, and the only sinless human was Christ.

May 28 2017, 1:09 AM 

So no other human was eligible. And God wanted a sacrifice, because without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. And the sacrifices of animals just pointed toward the perfect sacrifice of Christ. The author of Hebrews is clear that sacrifices of animals were not sufficient to forgive sins. So a human sacrifice was necessary. And only Christ was eligible.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

If not of our sins, would Christ have died?

May 28 2017, 5:44 AM 


 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

Of course if none of us sinned, then Christ would not have had to die for us.

June 10 2017, 9:24 PM 

He would not have had to die, unless of course there are some extraterrestrial intelligent beings on some other planets, who would be sinning.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Did God violate His own laws written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20?

May 28 2017, 4:24 PM 


 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

No, he did not. Christ is the head of the church, his body, so he died for his body.

June 10 2017, 9:26 PM 


 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Please tell us what "Scripture" was Psul referring to (1 Cor. 15:3)..

May 18 2017, 7:00 PM 


 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Isaiah 53:5-7

May 19 2017, 8:39 AM 


 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

How about Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20? Aren't these scriptures too?

May 21 2017, 4:39 PM 

In addition to Isaiah 53:5-7, could it be that apostle Paul was also referring to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 which are scriptures as well?

Apostle Paul speaks of Christ dying for our SINS according to Scripture (1 Cor. 15:3). Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 speak solely of people dying for their OWN sins. Since nobody knows for sure what scripture was apostle Paul referring to in 1 Cor. 15:3, it is therefore, highly likely, that apostle Paul had Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 in mind.

Do you know HOW Jesus Christ died for our sins according to Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20?


 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Of course they are scriptures.

May 22 2017, 8:51 AM 

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy spoken of Christ, and clearly spoke of him as to bear our iniquities, as an offering. And this goes well with the clear testimony about Jesus, as being the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

While Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 which are scriptures as well, they are laws given to Israel. They are not prophecies, nor are a shadow or type, of the death of Christ on the cross.

You speak of the law in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, being fulfilled by Christ. That is far from even being applicable to the death of Christ. These laws says that "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.", and that "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers, that a person shall be put to death for his own sin".

The bottom line of these laws is that a person shall be put to death for his own sin. You sinned, I sinned. According to these laws, we, individually, will be put to death, for our own sin. That our fathers shall not bear the guilt of our sins, nor they be put to death in our stead. Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws. He can't. Firstly, Jesus is not our father nor he is our son. And even if he is, these laws do not allow him to die for us.

Now, I understand that you make the church and Christ into an imaginary man, Christ being the head part and the church being the body part. But be that as it may, the man that they become is not wholly Christ, but is him and the church. So, this imaginary man could not be Christ, as you want it to be.

And finally, no scriptures prophesy of this nor there is a testimony in the NT about this.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

"According to the Scriptures" means "In compliance with the Scriptures.."

May 23 2017, 5:54 PM 

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy spoken of Christ, and clearly spoke of him as to bear our iniquities, as an offering. And this goes well with the clear testimony about Jesus, as being the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

INCQUISITOR:

I don't think apostle Paul had Isaiah 53:3-7 in mind when he said "Christ died for OUR sins ACCORDING to the Scriptures." The death of Christ FOR OUR SINS did not have to be "IN COMPLIANE with" what is written in Isaiah 53:3-7.
---------------------------------------
While Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 which are scriptures as well, they are laws given to Israel. They are not prophecies, nor are a shadow or type, of the death of Christ on the cross.

INCQUISITOR:

These Scriptures are more likely what apostle Paul had in mind. Christ died FOR OUR sins "according to the Scriptures" means that Christ died FOR OUR sins "IN COMPLIANCE with" the "righteousness (justice or law) of God" written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Prophecies are fulfilled - NOT complied with.
-------------------------------------
You speak of the law in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, being fulfilled by Christ. That is far from even being applicable to the death of Christ. These laws says that "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.", and that "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers, that a person shall be put to death for his own sin".

The bottom line of these laws is that a person shall be put to death for his own sin. You sinned, I sinned. According to these laws, we, individually, will be put to death, for our own sin. That our fathers shall not bear the guilt of our sins, nor they be put to death in our stead. Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws. He can't. Firstly, Jesus is not our father nor he is our son. And even if he is, these laws do not allow him to die for us.

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 is correct. Nobody can NORMALLY die for the sins of others - not even Jesus.
And yes, Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws NORMALLY.

However, Jesus said, "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is finished" (Mt. 5:17-18). Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law and indeed "Christ died FOR OUR sins according to (in compliance with) the Scriptures written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.
--------------------------------------
Now, I understand that you make the church and Christ into an imaginary man, Christ being the head part and the church being the body part. But be that as it may, the man that they become is not wholly Christ, but is him and the church. So, this imaginary man could not be Christ, as you want it to be.


INCQUISITOR:

If Christ is the "HEAD of the church, and the church is his BODY" (Eph. 1:22-23), then Christ and the church is the "one new man" that apostle Paul was talking about in Ephesians 2:15-16. This enabled Christ to fulfill God's law or righteousness written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

This is also HOW "the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in disciples of Christ" (Rom. 8:4). This is also HOW Christ was made sin for disciples of Christ that they might become the righteousness of God in Christ" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Apostle Paul wrote that "Christ is the head of the church; and he is the savior of the body" (Eph. 5:23). Apostle Paul also wrote that "Christ loved the church and gave himself FOR HER" (Eph. 5:25).

That's why apostle Paul wrote that Christ PURCHASED his church with his blood (Acts 20:28).

-------------------------------------
And finally, no scriptures prophesy of this nor there is a testimony in the NT about this.

INCQUISITOR:

This is the "mystery of Christ" (Eph. 3:4), "which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" (Eph. 3:5). "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel.

 
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Michael
(Login tong2012)

Re: "According to the Scriptures" means "In compliance with the Scriptures.."

May 26 2017, 8:32 AM 

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy spoken of Christ, and clearly spoke of him as to bear our iniquities, as an offering. And this goes well with the clear testimony about Jesus, as being the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

INCQUISITOR:

I don't think apostle Paul had Isaiah 53:3-7 in mind when he said "Christ died for OUR sins ACCORDING to the Scriptures." The death of Christ FOR OUR SINS did not have to be "IN COMPLIANE with" what is written in Isaiah 53:3-7.

Me:

So we differ as to what in scriptures Paul refer to. You want to think that it's not Isaiah 53:3-7. Don't you believe this prophecy spoken of Christ by Isaiah? Don't you also do not see this in that Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Apparently not.
---------------------------------------
While Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 which are scriptures as well, they are laws given to Israel. They are not prophecies, nor are a shadow or type, of the death of Christ on the cross.

INCQUISITOR:

These Scriptures are more likely what apostle Paul had in mind. Christ died FOR OUR sins "according to the Scriptures" means that Christ died FOR OUR sins "IN COMPLIANCE with" the "righteousness (justice or law) of God" written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20. Prophecies are fulfilled - NOT complied with.

Me:

"are more likely" says what it is that you think "according to the Scriptures" means. What scriptures says of the death of Jesus Christ is in connection to him bearing our iniquities is the fulfillment of the prophecy spoken of Christ by Isaiah.
-------------------------------------
You speak of the law in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20, being fulfilled by Christ. That is far from even being applicable to the death of Christ. These laws says that "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.", and that "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers, that a person shall be put to death for his own sin".

The bottom line of these laws is that a person shall be put to death for his own sin. You sinned, I sinned. According to these laws, we, individually, will be put to death, for our own sin. That our fathers shall not bear the guilt of our sins, nor they be put to death in our stead. Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws. He can't. Firstly, Jesus is not our father nor he is our son. And even if he is, these laws do not allow him to die for us.

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 is correct. Nobody can NORMALLY die for the sins of others - not even Jesus.
And yes, Jesus is far from fulfilling these laws NORMALLY.

However, Jesus said, "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is finished" (Mt. 5:17-18). Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law and indeed "Christ died FOR OUR sins according to (in compliance with) the Scriptures written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

Me:

It's not that's it's the normal way or not. As I pointed out, Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20 are far from even being applicable to the death of Christ. For as these laws says, "the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself", not upon anyone other than himself. What Jesus fulfilled with regards his dying for our sins is the prophecy spoken of Christ by Isaiah, he being the lamb of God.
--------------------------------------
Now, I understand that you make the church and Christ into an imaginary man, Christ being the head part and the church being the body part. But be that as it may, the man that they become is not wholly Christ, but is him and the church. So, this imaginary man could not be Christ, as you want it to be.


INCQUISITOR:

If Christ is the "HEAD of the church, and the church is his BODY" (Eph. 1:22-23), then Christ and the church is the "one new man" that apostle Paul was talking about in Ephesians 2:15-16. This enabled Christ to fulfill God's law or righteousness written in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:20.

This is also HOW "the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in disciples of Christ" (Rom. 8:4). This is also HOW Christ was made sin for disciples of Christ that they might become the righteousness of God in Christ" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Apostle Paul wrote that "Christ is the head of the church; and he is the savior of the body" (Eph. 5:23). Apostle Paul also wrote that "Christ loved the church and gave himself FOR HER" (Eph. 5:25).

That's why apostle Paul wrote that Christ PURCHASED his church with his blood (Acts 20:28).

Me:

The new man you make of, even is not Christ, but is Christ and the church.
-------------------------------------
And finally, no scriptures prophesy of this nor there is a testimony in the NT about this.

INCQUISITOR:

This is the "mystery of Christ" (Eph. 3:4), "which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" (Eph. 3:5). "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel.

Me:

Well.....

 
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