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Dr. James White debate vs Joe and the INC getting pwned

May 21 2017 at 1:28 PM
Jason Stevens  (Login dk777)

 
Greetings,

This forum has been dead for a few years now, but since the recent debate of Dr. James White versus JoeV I am seeing a lot more activity and have been directing INC members I run into to here for further discussions.

While it probably would have been better for Dr. White to have read my Pasugo rebuttals and FAQ so he could have more emphatically refuted Joe in the debate, he still crushed poor Joe. If you didn't notice, Joe did not directly respond to any of the key verses James mentioned in his opening, typical.

Anyway if there are any INC members still hanging around here, or new ones find their way, I will be monitoring these forums again.

Here is the debate;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnElgAnN414&t=11207s

Main study with Pasugo rebuttals at end

http://www.dk777.com/

A much much shorter FAQ that summarizes the key verses that prove Jesus Christ is God, and the INC is false.

http://www.dk777.com/trinityfaq.html

Here is a full expose of the INC based on their fundamental beliefs book.

http://www.dk777.com/incinanutshell.pdf


May you be blessed, with an open mind that accepts and believes ALL of the verses in the Bible.


Jason Stevens

 
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AuthorReply
WasInc
(Login WasInc)

Not Dead

June 16 2017, 8:28 PM 

Still here and visit this forum whenever I can and look for interesting topic.

 
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ncv.jr
(Login ncv)

same here...

July 1 2017, 9:55 AM 

keep visiting this site to get reference.
without posting.

 
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WasInc
(Login WasInc)

I viewed the the debate, over

July 5 2017, 11:13 PM 

two hours long. I paid attention and was open minded both sides. If you are a hard core INC, you probably did not accept any explanation, counter explanation of Dr. White. But as x-member, Dr. White explanations made more sense that Mr. V's.

 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

I viewed the debate too. I am neither an INC member or an ex-member, but

July 6 2017, 10:04 PM 

I am not trinitarian either. I believe that the Bible has not revealed to us whether God is one or more than one person, or whether his Son is God or not. Therefore I found Mr. White's explanations to be just as faulty as Mr. Ventilacion's explanations. They were both jumping to conclusions, in areas where the Bible does not give us definite answers, since God chose not to make such things known to us. The verses they chose do tell us somethings, but not whether God is one or more than one person, or whether his Son is God or not. So while different Christians come to different conclusions on such issues, such conclusions are not proven by the Bible. So we have Christian theories like unitarianism, trinitarianism, Arianism, binitarianism and modalism, none of these theories can be proven with the Bible. In fact the Bible is clear in various verses that there is a lot we can't know about God. And the Bible is clear for example in Luke 10:22 that we can't know the ultimate nature of the Son of God. It is simply not revealed to us at present. But Mr. Ventilacion and Mr. White failed to refer to any of such verses. Mr. White would have been much more successful had he pointed out that no verse says the Son is not God. And Mr. Ventilacion would have been much more successful had he pointed out that no verse says the Son is God. He said correctly that the Son never called himself God, but he failed to say that no verse in the whole Bible calls him God. So both debaters were unsuccessful.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

The words of Jesus carry more weight than all other words in the world.

July 9 2017, 6:23 PM 

Jesus said he is a MAN. This is written in John 8:40. Jesus said the Father is the ONLY TRUE God. This is written in John 17:3.

Anyone who is NOT a hypocrite and says that he has faith in Jesus and believes everything Jesus says, believes that Jesus is NOT God because, according to Jesus himself, he is a MAN and the Father is the only true God. It does NOT need one to have a PhD to understand what Jesus meant in John 8:40 and John 17:3.

These verses also prove that what Tomas is saying is FALSE.

 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

The words of the whole Bible carry more weight than all other words in the world.

July 12 2017, 7:54 AM 

Including the words of Jesus too. At least for our instruction. Words of Jesus that are not recorded in the Bible, are not for our instructions. Likewise words of God that are not in the Bible. They carry weight, but are not for our instructions today.
Jesus said he was a man in John 8:40, so he was a man when he said it. He did not say he was going to be a man again in 2017, so we can't know if he is a man now.
Jesus also said the Father is the only true God, in John 17:3, very true. But he did not say that the Father alone is the only true God. So the only true God could include more than one person.
Jesus also said all authority is given to him in heaven and on the earth, Mt. 28:18. That could mean he has the authority of God.
Still, regardless how these verses are interpreted by different Christians, one thing is clear, Jesus said in John 8:58 "before Abraham was born, I am". So while one can speculate why he said "I am" rather than "I was", he was clearly saying he existed already before Abraham was born, on that we can depend.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: The words of the whole Bible carry more weight than all other words in the world.

July 23 2017, 5:59 PM 

Including the words of Jesus too. At least for our instruction. Words of Jesus that are not recorded in the Bible, are not for our instructions. Likewise words of God that are not in the Bible. They carry weight, but are not for our instructions today.
Jesus said he was a man in John 8:40, so he was a man when he said it. He did not say he was going to be a man again in 2017, so we can't know if he is a man now.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, nobody knows the words of God and Jesus that are not written in the Bible. Jesus did not say that he was going to be God in 2017. Neither did Jesus say that he was not going to be a man in 2017. All Jesus said in John 8:40 is that he is a man. Naturally, common sense dictates that until Jesus says otherwise, his statement in John 8:40 remains the same. But, of course, people without common sense would not know that.
---------------------------------------
Jesus also said the Father is the only true God, in John 17:3, very true. But he did not say that the Father alone is the only true God. So the only true God could include more than one person.
Jesus also said all authority is given to him in heaven and on the earth, Mt. 28:18. That could mean he has the authority of God.

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said to the Father in John 17:3, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God." Again, common sense dictates that until Jesus says that the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, what he said in John 17:3 remains the same to this day. Also, common sense dictates that the phrase, "ONLY TRUE God" indicates that the Father ALONE is the ONLY TRUE God. But then again, people without common sense would deny that.

Common sense also dictates that a President who gives his ambassador all the authority h needs to perform his duties does not make that ambassador the President. The same is true with Jesus. God gave him all authority, that's true, but God did NOT make Jesus God.
----------------------------------------
Still, regardless how these verses are interpreted by different Christians, one thing is clear, Jesus said in John 8:58 "before Abraham was born, I am". So while one can speculate why he said "I am" rather than "I was", he was clearly saying he existed already before Abraham was born, on that we can depend.

INCQUISITOR:

Again, I say, nobody knows what Jesus meant in John 8:58 for certain unless it is written in the Bible. while it is true that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58 NKJV), it does not mean that Jesus "existed already" before Abraham was born. What is written in the Bible is that Jesus was "FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20). So, yes, "before Abraham was, Jesus was" in the mind of God.

 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

There was no need to wait until Jesus says otherwise.

July 23 2017, 7:35 PM 


Including the words of Jesus too. At least for our instruction. Words of Jesus that are not recorded in the Bible, are not for our instructions. Likewise words of God that are not in the Bible. They carry weight, but are not for our instructions today.
Jesus said he was a man in John 8:40, so he was a man when he said it. He did not say he was going to be a man again in 2017, so we can't know if he is a man now.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, nobody knows the words of God and Jesus that are not written in the Bible. Jesus did not say that he was going to be God in 2017. Neither did Jesus say that he was not going to be a man in 2017. All Jesus said in John 8:40 is that he is a man. Naturally, common sense dictates that until Jesus says otherwise, his statement in John 8:40 remains the same. But, of course, people without common sense would not know that.

Tomas:

There was no need to wait until Jesus says otherwise. Jesus had ascended to heaven and was almost never talking to people any longer, with the most prominent exceptions being when he talked to Paul and was teaching him the gospel, so that Paul could become an apostle, and when Jesus talked to John and dictated to him letters to the 7 churches of Revelation. But anyway, God revealed to Paul in Gal. 1:1 and 1:12, that Paul was not given the gospel and made an apostle by any man, but by Jesus Christ and his Father. So Paul wrote it by the inspiration of God, so that is an inerrant statement of God, that Jesus Christ was not a man any more when that happened. So common sense tells us that it changes, depending on what God wants, so we have no way of knowing whether Jesus is a man now or not.
---------------------------------------

Jesus also said the Father is the only true God, in John 17:3, very true. But he did not say that the Father alone is the only true God. So the only true God could include more than one person.
Jesus also said all authority is given to him in heaven and on the earth, Mt. 28:18. That could mean he has the authority of God.

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said to the Father in John 17:3, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God." Again, common sense dictates that until Jesus says that the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, what he said in John 17:3 remains the same to this day. Also, common sense dictates that the phrase, "ONLY TRUE God" indicates that the Father ALONE is the ONLY TRUE God. But then again, people without common sense would deny that.

Common sense also dictates that a President who gives his ambassador all the authority h needs to perform his duties does not make that ambassador the President. The same is true with Jesus. God gave him all authority, that's true, but God did NOT make Jesus God.

Tomas:

You say it is common sense to interpret the verse that the Father ALONE is the only true God. Well, most Christians have plenty of common sense, but they don't interpret it that way. Unitarian, Arian and Modalist Christians will interpret it that way, but Trinitarian and Binitarian Christians will not interpret it that way, they can point out that the word 'alone' is not there. And they are over 95% of Christians.
----------------------------------------

Still, regardless how these verses are interpreted by different Christians, one thing is clear, Jesus said in John 8:58 "before Abraham was born, I am". So while one can speculate why he said "I am" rather than "I was", he was clearly saying he existed already before Abraham was born, on that we can depend.

INCQUISITOR:

Again, I say, nobody knows what Jesus meant in John 8:58 for certain unless it is written in the Bible. while it is true that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58 NKJV), it does not mean that Jesus "existed already" before Abraham was born. What is written in the Bible is that Jesus was "FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20). So, yes, "before Abraham was, Jesus was" in the mind of God.

Tomas:

Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, that is true. But in addition, Rev. 3:14 says he was the beginning of the creation of God. So he was the first one created. And Jesus himself said he had glory with the Father before the world was, John 17:5. So both verses are in perfect harmony. So it was not just in the mind of God that Jesus was before Abraham. After all, his apostles were also in the mind of God before Abraham was. The Pharisees were also in the mind of God before Abraham was. All people, past, present and future were in the mind of God before Abraham was. So naturally that is not what Jesus meant, when he said 'before Abraham was, I am'.

 
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INCquisitor
(Login fccc354)

Re: There was no need to wait until Jesus says otherwise.

July 24 2017, 7:20 PM 

Including the words of Jesus too. At least for our instruction. Words of Jesus that are not recorded in the Bible, are not for our instructions. Likewise words of God that are not in the Bible. They carry weight, but are not for our instructions today.
Jesus said he was a man in John 8:40, so he was a man when he said it. He did not say he was going to be a man again in 2017, so we can't know if he is a man now.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, nobody knows the words of God and Jesus that are not written in the Bible. Jesus did not say that he was going to be God in 2017. Neither did Jesus say that he was not going to be a man in 2017. All Jesus said in John 8:40 is that he is a man. Naturally, common sense dictates that until Jesus says otherwise, his statement in John 8:40 remains the same. But, of course, people without common sense would not know that.

Tomas:

There was no need to wait until Jesus says otherwise. Jesus had ascended to heaven and was almost never talking to people any longer, with the most prominent exceptions being when he talked to Paul and was teaching him the gospel, so that Paul could become an apostle, and when Jesus talked to John and dictated to him letters to the 7 churches of Revelation. But anyway, God revealed to Paul in Gal. 1:1 and 1:12, that Paul was not given the gospel and made an apostle by any man, but by Jesus Christ and his Father. So Paul wrote it by the inspiration of God, so that is an inerrant statement of God, that Jesus Christ was not a man any more when that happened. So common sense tells us that it changes, depending on what God wants, so we have no way of knowing whether Jesus is a man now or not.

INCQUISITOR:

As usual, you totally MISUNDERSTAND what apostle Paul said. Of course, Paul got what he knew from God THROUGH the Lord Jesus Christ. You seem to not realize that everything Jesus said is a command from God (John 12:49), and all the doctrines of Christ are God's (John 7:16). Hence, when Jesus was talking to Paul, Jesus was a MAN who was telling Paul the words of God.
---------------------------------------

Jesus also said the Father is the only true God, in John 17:3, very true. But he did not say that the Father alone is the only true God. So the only true God could include more than one person.
Jesus also said all authority is given to him in heaven and on the earth, Mt. 28:18. That could mean he has the authority of God.

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said to the Father in John 17:3, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God." Again, common sense dictates that until Jesus says that the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, what he said in John 17:3 remains the same to this day. Also, common sense dictates that the phrase, "ONLY TRUE God" indicates that the Father ALONE is the ONLY TRUE God. But then again, people without common sense would deny that.

Common sense also dictates that a President who gives his ambassador all the authority h needs to perform his duties does not make that ambassador the President. The same is true with Jesus. God gave him all authority, that's true, but God did NOT make Jesus God.

Tomas:

You say it is common sense to interpret the verse that the Father ALONE is the only true God. Well, most Christians have plenty of common sense, but they don't interpret it that way. Unitarian, Arian and Modalist Christians will interpret it that way, but Trinitarian and Binitarian Christians will not interpret it that way, they can point out that the word 'alone' is not there. And they are over 95% of Christians.

INCQUISITOR:

Who says they are 95% Christians? Not Jesus! The TRUTH is, they are NOT Christians at all!

The Bible teaches that the DISCIPLES of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). And Jesus says to the Jews who BELIEVED him, "If you ABIDE in my word, you are my DISCIPLES indeed" (John 8:31). Therefore, ONLY people who "BELIEVE Jesus and ABIDE in his word" are TRUE Christians.

These Trinitarians and Binitarians who you say are Christians and have plenty of common sense LIE to their teeth when they say that the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE God because the word "alone" is not there. Where did these Trini tariand and Binitarian Christians learn their basic English language?
----------------------------------------

Still, regardless how these verses are interpreted by different Christians, one thing is clear, Jesus said in John 8:58 "before Abraham was born, I am". So while one can speculate why he said "I am" rather than "I was", he was clearly saying he existed already before Abraham was born, on that we can depend.

INCQUISITOR:

Again, I say, nobody knows what Jesus meant in John 8:58 for certain unless it is written in the Bible. while it is true that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58 NKJV), it does not mean that Jesus "existed already" before Abraham was born. What is written in the Bible is that Jesus was "FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20). So, yes, "before Abraham was, Jesus was" in the mind of God.

Tomas:

Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, that is true. But in addition, Rev. 3:14 says he was the beginning of the creation of God. So he was the first one created. And Jesus himself said he had glory with the Father before the world was, John 17:5. So both verses are in perfect harmony. So it was not just in the mind of God that Jesus was before Abraham. After all, his apostles were also in the mind of God before Abraham was. The Pharisees were also in the mind of God before Abraham was. All people, past, present and future were in the mind of God before Abraham was. So naturally that is not what Jesus meant, when he said 'before Abraham was, I am'.

INCQUISITOR:

Show me where in the Bible can we find that Christ was the "first one created." Also, show me where in the Bible can we find that Abraham, the apostles, the Pharisees and all people were "also in the mind of God" before Abraham was.

Again, you totally MISUNDERSTAND Rev. 3:14. True, Jesus was the "beginning of the creation of God." It is also true that Jesus "was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him and WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE" (John 1:2-3).

But these verses do NOT tell us that Christ was God who was in the beginning WITH God. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that ONLY ONE God CREATED ALL things and Jesus is a MAN who was created long after the first man, Adam was created.

What then is the meaning of Rev. 3:14? The verse means that Christ is the "REASON for the creation of everything." Apostle John writes, "WITHOUT him NOTHING was made that was made" (John 1:3).



 
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Tomas
(Login TomasSedlacek)

Paul was inspired by God himself, in what he wrote.

July 26 2017, 9:11 AM 


Including the words of Jesus too. At least for our instruction. Words of Jesus that are not recorded in the Bible, are not for our instructions. Likewise words of God that are not in the Bible. They carry weight, but are not for our instructions today.
Jesus said he was a man in John 8:40, so he was a man when he said it. He did not say he was going to be a man again in 2017, so we can't know if he is a man now.

INCQUISITOR:

Of course, nobody knows the words of God and Jesus that are not written in the Bible. Jesus did not say that he was going to be God in 2017. Neither did Jesus say that he was not going to be a man in 2017. All Jesus said in John 8:40 is that he is a man. Naturally, common sense dictates that until Jesus says otherwise, his statement in John 8:40 remains the same. But, of course, people without common sense would not know that.

Tomas:

There was no need to wait until Jesus says otherwise. Jesus had ascended to heaven and was almost never talking to people any longer, with the most prominent exceptions being when he talked to Paul and was teaching him the gospel, so that Paul could become an apostle, and when Jesus talked to John and dictated to him letters to the 7 churches of Revelation. But anyway, God revealed to Paul in Gal. 1:1 and 1:12, that Paul was not given the gospel and made an apostle by any man, but by Jesus Christ and his Father. So Paul wrote it by the inspiration of God, so that is an inerrant statement of God, that Jesus Christ was not a man any more when that happened. So common sense tells us that it changes, depending on what God wants, so we have no way of knowing whether Jesus is a man now or not.

INCQUISITOR:

As usual, you totally MISUNDERSTAND what apostle Paul said. Of course, Paul got what he knew from God THROUGH the Lord Jesus Christ. You seem to not realize that everything Jesus said is a command from God (John 12:49), and all the doctrines of Christ are God's (John 7:16). Hence, when Jesus was talking to Paul, Jesus was a MAN who was telling Paul the words of God.

Tomas:

Paul was inspired by God himself in what he wrote. So when he wrote that he did not get the gospel from a man, or did not become an apostle by a man, but by Jesus Christ, that means that at that time Jesus Christ was no longer a man. That is what God wanted Paul to write, so that is what he wrote.
---------------------------------------

Jesus also said the Father is the only true God, in John 17:3, very true. But he did not say that the Father alone is the only true God. So the only true God could include more than one person.
Jesus also said all authority is given to him in heaven and on the earth, Mt. 28:18. That could mean he has the authority of God.

INCQUISITOR:

Jesus said to the Father in John 17:3, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY TRUE God." Again, common sense dictates that until Jesus says that the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, what he said in John 17:3 remains the same to this day. Also, common sense dictates that the phrase, "ONLY TRUE God" indicates that the Father ALONE is the ONLY TRUE God. But then again, people without common sense would deny that.

Common sense also dictates that a President who gives his ambassador all the authority h needs to perform his duties does not make that ambassador the President. The same is true with Jesus. God gave him all authority, that's true, but God did NOT make Jesus God.

Tomas:

You say it is common sense to interpret the verse that the Father ALONE is the only true God. Well, most Christians have plenty of common sense, but they don't interpret it that way. Unitarian, Arian and Modalist Christians will interpret it that way, but Trinitarian and Binitarian Christians will not interpret it that way, they can point out that the word 'alone' is not there. And they are over 95% of Christians.

INCQUISITOR:

Who says they are 95% Christians? Not Jesus! The TRUTH is, they are NOT Christians at all!

The Bible teaches that the DISCIPLES of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). And Jesus says to the Jews who BELIEVED him, "If you ABIDE in my word, you are my DISCIPLES indeed" (John 8:31). Therefore, ONLY people who "BELIEVE Jesus and ABIDE in his word" are TRUE Christians.

These Trinitarians and Binitarians who you say are Christians and have plenty of common sense LIE to their teeth when they say that the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE God because the word "alone" is not there. Where did these Trini tariand and Binitarian Christians learn their basic English language?

Tomas:

Trinitarians and Binitarians do not lie through their teeth. They agree that the Father is the only true God. They just differ from Unitarians, Arians and Modalists by saying that it is not the Father alone who is the only true God. And since that can be a valid interpretation, then Trinitarians and Binitarians also preach the true gospel, so they too are Christians, they too believe and abide in his word, when they are saved.
----------------------------------------

Still, regardless how these verses are interpreted by different Christians, one thing is clear, Jesus said in John 8:58 "before Abraham was born, I am". So while one can speculate why he said "I am" rather than "I was", he was clearly saying he existed already before Abraham was born, on that we can depend.

INCQUISITOR:

Again, I say, nobody knows what Jesus meant in John 8:58 for certain unless it is written in the Bible. while it is true that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58 NKJV), it does not mean that Jesus "existed already" before Abraham was born. What is written in the Bible is that Jesus was "FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20). So, yes, "before Abraham was, Jesus was" in the mind of God.

Tomas:

Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, that is true. But in addition, Rev. 3:14 says he was the beginning of the creation of God. So he was the first one created. And Jesus himself said he had glory with the Father before the world was, John 17:5. So both verses are in perfect harmony. So it was not just in the mind of God that Jesus was before Abraham. After all, his apostles were also in the mind of God before Abraham was. The Pharisees were also in the mind of God before Abraham was. All people, past, present and future were in the mind of God before Abraham was. So naturally that is not what Jesus meant, when he said 'before Abraham was, I am'.

INCQUISITOR:

Show me where in the Bible can we find that Christ was the "first one created." Also, show me where in the Bible can we find that Abraham, the apostles, the Pharisees and all people were "also in the mind of God" before Abraham was.

Again, you totally MISUNDERSTAND Rev. 3:14. True, Jesus was the "beginning of the creation of God." It is also true that Jesus "was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him and WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE" (John 1:2-3).

But these verses do NOT tell us that Christ was God who was in the beginning WITH God. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that ONLY ONE God CREATED ALL things and Jesus is a MAN who was created long after the first man, Adam was created.

What then is the meaning of Rev. 3:14? The verse means that Christ is the "REASON for the creation of everything." Apostle John writes, "WITHOUT him NOTHING was made that was made" (John 1:3).

Tomas:

Rev. 3:14 says that the Son is the beginning of the creation of God. That clearly says he was the first one created. And in fact there is no verse that says that Jesus was created long after the first man, Adam, was created, as you claim.
1 John 3:20 says God knows everything. So naturally, God already knew everything before he created anything. So everything was already in the mind of God, before he created anything. So likewise everyone was already in the mind of God. So before God created Adam, he already had in mind Adam, Eve, Cain, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Deborah, Peter, Paul, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, John, Pilate, Augustus, Nero, Napoleon, Lenin, Hitler, Churchill, Mother Theresa, queen Elizabeth II, you, and me. Everybody.

 
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