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..for bringing the cold hard reality of war into our living room. Pictures tell true stories. I wish these could be posted on every board in every school in every town everywhere. People should see up close the horrors of war, peoples heads being blown off, children being blown out of their beds sideways, babies' bodies mangled as mothers weep.
The Bushviks are heartless bastards. Damn them. Damn them straight to hell.

My response on another active thread on this site is so well thought out and aplicable, I think I'll just save time and paste it here too:

"I'm sorry, shall I believe then that you are at home weeping tears for the children whose parents were blown apart in the streets because the United States military did not believe a building was truly civilian?"


By positing such a notion, you imply that the fact that civilians die as a result of this war somehow invalidates the war itself.

You also imply that carelessness on our part is somehow to blame for civilian casualties.

I say you're wrong on both counts, and I cited my reasons for saying so.

Your defense of the statement strikes me as convoluted and disingenuous.

I suspect, as I earlier suggested, that you are one of those people who simply can't tolerate the idea of war for any reason, and in fact, you have as much as said so in your last post.

I find this position indefensible: It ultimately serves to justify every wrong one group of human beings chooses to foist upon another, by virtue of the fact that it precludes lethal force, which is ofttimes the only force which can be effective.

Now let me take aim at another passage:

"What I think is pathetic is that you have somehow found the arrogance to write off these people as if you had a place to. When were you appointed as God? Iraqi lives may have been lost if the war was never brought to them."

I am not the one writing them off; You are.

As I pointed out earlier, wars are sometimes necessary, in order to REDUCE the collective suffering of a people. This should be self-evident to anyone.

For some reason, this seems to be a leap of logic which you cannot make. You continually insinuate that to kill a few civilians in a war is no different from allowing many civilians to be killed as a result of the unwillingness to go to war.

That is ludicrous.

Finally, for the Mother of all Bad Analogies:

"But if I had a gun, and the man next to me had a gun, and in front of us stood a child, and the man turned to me and said, "I'm going to shoot her,".... why on earth would I be compelled to pull the trigger first? Because she was already as good as dead? Yeah, THAT makes sense."

If you had a gun, and a man was walking down the isles of a prison, shooting innocents in their cells one by one, and this man had already killed many, and was in the process of killing many more, and you had the opportunity to stop him with a shot, at the risk of striking a single prisoner in the cell behind him would you take the chance and save the lives of the remaining prisoners, our stand there agonizing over the inhumanity of it all until all were dead?

Now perhaps I have pegged you wrong; Perhaps you believe that some wars have been justified.

If that is the case, I would be curious to know which ones, as well as what the civilian death tolls of those wars were.

Your turn, Webb.

I personally oppose war, but I'm not an absolutist. Whenever there is a clear and present danger to our shores, our country, and when the threat of that danger is imminent then by all means we must protect ourselves. This was not the case with Iraq. No weapons of mass destruction have used by Iraq nor have any been found by the invading forces. One of the primary reasons according the Bush administration for overthrowing this sovereign nation's government was to destroy these huge arsenals of WMD's. Therefore we all know they have to be found (or planted) to give this illegal and immoral action any semblance of legitimacy.
Bush should be impeached for abuse of power, and then by tried as an international war criminal because of his descision to unilaterlly, and against international law, invade and overthrow a sovereign nation which posed no immediate threat to the United States. His actions are unforgivable. We the people of the United States have never been more hated worldwide in our 227 year history. Regime change is needed more in the United States than ever before.
Yes this was a war of choice to furthere PNAC's agenda, and sadly many lives will have been lost for oil, greed and ambition.

I'm not sure what you are saying Webb.

Are you suggesting that if WMD are found, then President Bush will have been vindicated?

Or that if they are found, you will simply dismiss them as a fabrication?

And are you suggesting that since there was no threat to our national interest, we were wrong to stop the slaughter of Bosnian Muslims?

And since President Bush has been authorized to use force in Iraq by recent and specific Congressional Resolutions, on what ground would he be impeached?

And since President Clinton took unilateral military action which resulted in the overthrow of sovereign leader Slobodon Milosovich, should he be tried for war crimes also?

Are do we enforce these ambiguous "international laws" selectively?

And what evidence to you have to support the notion that the influence of PNAC on world affairs is anything more than a paranoid delusion being generated by the desperate lunatic fringe of liberalism?

Simple questions.

Yes, the evil US. Warmongers and butchers. Funny, I can't remember the last time US government officials set up a Rape Camp, had the local school principal send out the girls, and then the officials chose the children they would most enjoy deflowering. I also can't remember the last time I saw people fed into industrial shredders in the middle of the street to make an example of them. I must have missed the piles of severed hands and feet in the US for petty offenses. In all my time as a US citizen, I never got invited to a free-for-all blood-bath at the local soccer stadium for political dissidents either. I can't remember the last time a woman in the US got beaten with a stick for not keeping herself coverd up or for talking out of turn. If the US government is starving its own people for the sake of funding its military machine, they sure hide it pretty well. And I know this is incredible, but I'm still waiting to hear about the incidents where the US government gassed thousands of its own citizens to death.

I only know of 2 confirmed cases of atrocities committed by the US in Viet Nam. These incidents involved scores of civilians by thugs defiling US uniforms. Both were followed by courts-martial. On the other hand, the benevolent North Vietnamese were known to have slaughtered 1000's of their own civilians on more than one occasion. They routinely murdered missionaries and USAID workers, not to mention their notorius treatment of POWs.

But, we're the bad guys. Whatever...Nice hit-job, propaganda piece though. Too bad it has no roots in objective reality.

Sure, post those pics in "every shcool" in the country- right along with those pics of people jumping from the trade towers. All the ragging on Bush, but not one damn word about "shameful" Saddam. Here's a quarter, call someone who gives a ****!

More Bush bashing drivel. Get a life loser!

Mass graves testify to Saddam's atrocities
By John Powers
Published 3/12/2004 7:49 PM

<a href="http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040312-074010-1766r</a" target="_new">http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040312-074010-1766r</a>;

British Prime Minister Tony Blair puts the remains in mass graves at 400,000 so far.



;



New Mass Graves Uncovered In Iraq















There was a protest march of Iraqis against terror on July 5th. You probably haven't heard about it from Peter Jennings or Dan Rather:















Call it the Iraqi version of We're Not Afraid.

The Army Times article about the March Against Terror is available at Stryker Brigade News.

It's funny how liberals don't give a damn about dead soldiers, unless they can use them for propaganda. You've done a fine job of proving it.

To get your moral compass realigned, you might want to scroll up to the pictures of the mass graves filled with Saddam's victims.

Many of those mass graves we added to, BTF.

Grandpa h.

You know, I can't remember Bush saying anything about mass graves before the war.

I must have missed that State of the Union address because the one I saw talked about things like Nigerian Uranium and mushroom clouds, followed by press conferences with Rice talking about aluminum tubes for enrichment.

Nope, I'm drawing a blank on the "mass graves" justification.

Earlier in the thread comparisons to Bosnia were made.

It has been awhile, and please forgive my memory, but did Clinton, too, justify sending troops for one reason before the fact and a second after?

It's funny how liberals don't give a damn about dead soldiers, unless they can use them for propaganda.

You republicans are the biggest hypocrites because you yourselves use the soldiers for propaganda. You also like to call such pictures "propaganda", but in the same time sob like muslim weepers over your dead mercanaries.

More attempts to cover up your indifference to the lives of American soldiers. You're a joke even at your best.

Hey there bornetokill, I'm new to this forum, but the first thing I've noticed is how well you've dealt with anti-American scumbags like Max. Keep up the good work.

Thanks very much. Although I've single handedly sent him crying to his Momma, the more people kicking this guy's ass the better, so I'm glad your here.

I'd just like to say I find bornetokill's posts very arousing.

Me too I'd love to go and meet the guy some day his posts arouse me every time.

As I've often said, I get that a lot from women. Take a number and get in line you two.

It's obvious now that I'll never win in a debate with bornetokill, I'm leaving this forum forever.

In order to confute my point it's enough to write one smart post instead of 10 dumb ones.

What does, 'confute,' mean, dumbass!

I was just thinking the same thing, what's Maxi-Pad doing here if he can't even spell?

Bornetokill you're so handsome I love you!

Sorry babe but you're not the only lady out there who wants me, wait your turn!

What does, 'confute,' mean, dumbass!

I was just thinking the same thing, what's Maxi-Pad doing here if he can't even spell?

So, BTF, you don't know what confute means, yet you're calling Max the dumbass? Let me help you and your various little personalities out. Confute means to confound (if you don't know what that means, look it up). And, btw, he spelled it right...

You and your spamming of this forum have to be the most pathetic things I've ever seen. Get a life.

You're just jealous because bornetokill is way better looking than you.

I agree with that statement, it's so obvious that you're filled with envy because bornetokill is so much more handsome than you.

You're both absolutely right, I apologise bornetokill for insulting you just because you've been blessed with better looks than me.

Apology excepted Ryan, now go play in the traffic. As to the two ladies, I'm afraid there's a lot of women interested in me so get in line like the rest of them.

Helen (Login bornetokill.): You're just jealous because bornetokill is way better looking than you.

Ain't that sweet? No real girl would compliment him so he had to make one up on his computer. It just brings a tear to my eye.

Let's start a pool.

Let's start with my entry. Hmmmmmmm. What are the facts?

His arguments (if you want to call them that) are adolescent in nature. His mind is quite fixated on the fantasy of girls "wanting" him. His "inventing" supporters and spamming the forum with them sounds a bit pre-adolescent, but the clincher for me is his self-proclaimed title, "borntokill". To me that sounds like an honor one might bestow upon himself based on his perceived prowess in one of those combat video games like Halo or Doom.

My money is that he's 14, maybe a freshman in highschool.

Anyone else care to make and educated guess?

(Don't reveal yet, "Borntokill", let's get some other entries first)

I can't speculate as to who BTF is, but he doesn't impress me, anyway.

Grandpa h.

I must say, however, that when I first heard of a "BTK killer" it did raise an eyebrow.

Grandpa h.

When I first came across BTF, I thought he couldn't possibly be older than 15, these days I don't really know. According to his own claims he'd have to be at least 50, however it's quite easy to make up such claims when you only exist as writing on a computer screen, and the idea that a grown man could be that retarded is just too horrifying to consider.
And bornetokill has to be the dumbest name I have ever come across. I can just imagine that nitwit giggling like an idiot at the thought of having a 'tough,' name. And the funniest thing of all is how highly he considers his contribution to the debate, if you can call it a contribution. He's always going on about how he's winning the argument even though the opponent is winning by default cos BTF never argues just throws a tantrum. Does anyone remember when he called himself a hero? That was a classic.

I think I remember him claiming that he had been in the military. Does anyone remember that?

But H&S is right, his claims don't match the reality of his writing behavior. 15 is a good guess, but I'm inclined to go even younger in light of his "made up" friends of late. It'd be a stretch for a mature adult or even a mature teenager to do that...over and over again.

"Many of those mass graves we added to, BTF."

"Grandpa h."

Your boyhood idol Bill Clinton certainly added to those mass graves by his 8 years of inaction in dealing with Iraq.

Where on earth did you ever learn to do math? How exactly did you arrive at 50 years old? Your stupidity knows no bounds!

"But H&S is right, his claims don't match the reality of his writing behavior. 15 is a good guess, but I'm inclined to go even younger in light of his "made up" friends of late. It'd be a stretch for a mature adult or even a mature teenager to do that...over and over again."

You must be new to this web site, eh Ryan?

No connection to the intelligent discussion. I just think this one is hilarious.

Again, Clinton was no hero of mine and he was very much active in Iraq, what with the regular bombing campaigns and sanctions (which did add to mass graves).

Grandpa h.

Me neither. Clinton is a pervert.

You must be new to this web site, eh Ryan?

Nope, been around awhile...actually longer than you.

So who's right, BTF, me or H&S. (Is it too late to change my guess? I'm leaning toward 13 now.)

I'd say he's an 18-20 year old with the mind of a 13 year old.

"So who's right, BTF, me or H&S. (Is it too late to change my guess? I'm leaning toward 13 now."

Neither. You're both morons.

You've got to be joking. Clinton's air campaign in Iraq killed one janitor working the overnight shift. Clinton's air campaign in Afghanistan bombed an empty tent, and killed a camel. Clinton's only successful air campaign was against the Serbs. The air campaign in Serbia, hit mostly "soft targets" (hospitals, schools, bridges, churches, etc.). That air campaign did kill a lot of Christian Serbs in order to save Albanian Muslims. The Muslims repaid us a few years later with the attacks of 9-11.

Your boyhood idol is easily the second-worse President in History. Jimmy Carter is still holding on to the title of worst President.

I overlooked his childish propensity toward name-calling. I'm more inclined to say he's 12. 12 at best.

...And before I forget, BTF, your homework assignment for today is to determine the period Jimmy Carter was president and to look up the word "propensity".

Good luck little fella.

Ryan, you cheater! I looked it up and some kind of greek mumbo-jumbo came up! [prə'pensiti]... wtf is that?

So just what is your problem with killing 3rd world religious wacko vermin?

So just what is your problem with killing 3rd world religious wacko vermin?

Ooh, you're so macho-arrogant. I bet you're one of the people weeping like sissies when American soldiers die.

I'd just like to say I think Ryan, Grandpa Helicopter, Hammerheadsicko and Ryan are a bunch of retarded losers.

Couldn't agree more, add Maximum Bull**** to the list while you're at it.

They've obviously never had a date so they vent their frustration by spewing bull**** on the internet.

They'll certainly never get a date from me, but bornetokill could you call me as soon as you can, please!

That's 5 against 1, you retarded loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosers!!!!!!!!!!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The juvenile use of his made up "friends" pushes him even younger in my book. 12 or 11.

BTF, put your Mom on so she can tell how old you really are.

He's 13, Ryan. Yes, he is! Yes, he is, the little smoochkin poo.

I guess that settles that.

'I think I remember him claiming that he had been in the military. Does anyone remember that?'

Yeah I remember. I wonder how far he did get in 'Medal of Honour'. Maybe we should tell him that serving in the military involves more than just switching on the Playstation 2.
What was even funnier was when he claimed he did a lot of charity work even though he'd earlier claimed that poor people pissed him off. That's what I've always found hilarious, his total lack of consistency, 'We're in Iraq to bring freedom, we're in Iraq to blow their heads off.' 'These commies are wussy posers, these commies are dangerous subversives.' I had a good discussion before with Grandpa H about how the guy just can't make up his mind.

'But H&S is right, his claims don't match the reality of his writing behavior. 15 is a good guess, but I'm inclined to go even younger in light of his "made up" friends of late. It'd be a stretch for a mature adult or even a mature teenager to do that...over and over again.'

I know a guy who used come on internet forums just to act the fool, this was when he was about 18, but even his posts showed a lot more maturity. I think the question we need to ask is, 'What's the youngest age at which someone can successfully operate a computer?,' then we'll have the answer.

For one thing, BTF, I doubt Clinton had absolute say in how the bombing campaigns went, but I am sure they did some damage (although we shouldn't have doen damage at all, seeing as to how there was a ceasefire and everything).

Grandpa h.

Did I ever tell you guys I live in my Mom's basement?

And I flip burgers for a living.

I don't even have a job, I'm on welfare.

I don't have a job either because I'm a heroin addict.

I'm glad you losers have admitted to being just that, losers!

Thank you to all my brothers and sisters in arms that have given their lives, given of themselves and left their own family, so that my family, my friends, my neighbors, my fellow Americans, those abroad and I, could sleep this peaceful night.

Carter was the first president to allow the USA to be held hostage. End result loss of credibility with terrorists. Everytime we give in to them it results in more American deaths. Reagan demonstrated the value of a strong response. Mohmar stopped his attacks on the USA. When our marines died in lebenon (a UN mission) Reagan responded instantly. Syria behaved after that in fear of the consequences.
Its strange the Liberals are all for americans dieing for UN missions. Do they ever stop to ask why the UN always gives the worst jobs to americans? Lebenon our Marines wern't even allowed to load thier weapons without UN permission first. Wern't allowed to return fire unless the UN felt it was justified. End result 252 mariens died needlessly.
Somolia? Started out as a mission to feed the starving people. A noble cause. Clinton took office and changed the mission. The Military requested heavey armor ie tanks,apc etc. Clinton denied the request. End result americans died needlessly.
The middle east is a problem caused by the europeans. They left a power vacum and the most ruthless are in power. Russia sells weapons to anyone and then they complain when we react to american civilians dieing.China sells weapons to terrorists also why don't you liberals talk about that?