Peace & Blessings to You, Your home & Loved ones:

Please let me know what you think of the these views on Chronology:

Bro. Miller had the 1260, 1290, 1335, 2300 days of Daniel, the 2520 Gentile Times, Jubilee cycles, and 6000 years -- all of which he ended at one year, 1843 ad (except the 1260, 1290 days). When 1843 did not fulfill their expectations, Bro. Miller supposed Christ would return at the end of that year, namely the early part of 1844. When that did not occur, others at last persuaded him that October 22, 1844, the Day of Atonement, would see the return of Christ. Thereafter he declined to set new dates, but was reported to have said that he saw no light his side of 1873 (or 1874). He died not many years after the final disappointment.

Some time later, Bro. Barbour began to see the problem. Bro. Miller ended the 1260 days in 1798 (only one year different than the 1799 date we are accustomed to), and supposed the 1290 years ended at the same time. In order to accomplish this, he began the 1290 years 30 years too soon -- and the 1335 days at the same time as the 1290, therefore also 30 years too soon.

So, thought Bro. Barbour, that was the problem -- adjust the 1335 days forward 30 years, and this should be the time of Christ's return ... and that theory was correct. Thus Christ returned in 1874, rather than 1844.

But now Bro. Barbour had a problem. What about all the other prophecies, Gentile Times, Jubilees, and 6000 years -- which formerly ended about 1843/1844? How were they to be reworked? So Bro. Barbour set about to find a way ... and he did. Some of what he found worked. But some of it was not correct.

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Now, more than 120 years later, it is apparent that the chronology he used -- the time from Adam to the present -- was incorrect. Bro. Barbour choose it because it (almost) worked, because he assumed Bro. Miller's view, namely that 6000 years end at the time of Christ's return. Here is the chronology he used.

1656 Adam to End of Flood
427 to Abraham's Covenant
430 to Exodus
46 Wandering and Conquering
450 Judges
513 Kings
606 bc date of Zedekiah's dethronement
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4128 bc date of Adam's creation

6000 years forward were thought to end in 1872 (6000 - 4128 = 1872), but as Christ returned in 1874, it was supposed Adam was in the Garden for 2 years before his fall, making 6000 years of sin and death ending at Christ's return in 1874.

(Actually 6000 years from 4128 bc is 1873, because when we cross the bc / ad divide all computations must be adjusted by one year, since there is no year "zero" in history with the arithmetic presumes. The correct calculation is 6000 - 4128 + 1 = 1873 -- a small point here, but it will be significant later on.)


The problem is that it is now clear that 606 bc was not the end of Zedekiah's Kingdom. How do we know? Because the Jeremiah 52:29 dates this episode in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar, and the years of his reign are known. The 18th year was 587 bc, not 606 bc.

This presents us with several challenges.

(a) When, then, do 6000 years end?
(b) How does this affect the Gentile Times?
(c) How does this affect the Jubilees?
(d) How does this affect the Lord's Return?
(e) How does this affect the beginning of the Millennium?
(f) How does this affect the Reign of Christ?

(a) When we look deeper into all the periods, we find that some of the kings of Israel overlapped, because of co-regencies, which abbreviates this period by 50 years -- by this means all the data in Kings and Chronicles is reconciled, and the links to the Assyrian Empire also harmonize. When we examine closely the period of the Judges, the internal evidence shows that 1 Kings 6:1 is indeed correct, which abbreviates the Judges by 101 years to 349 years. (Paul's comment in Acts 13:20 is simply a sum of the 19 periods in Judges and 1 Samuel, which include many overlaps). Thus the chronology requires three adjustments.

19 years (587 bc rather than 606 bc)
50 years (shorter in the Kings)
101 years (shorter in the Judges)
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170 years shorter than formerly supposed. This means 6000 years, rather than ending in 1873, actually end in 2043 ad. This evidently means that 6000 years points not to the beginning of the harvest (1874), but to the end of the harvest (2043).

(b) The Gentile Times began when the 70 years "for Babylon" began. The 70 years were not a period of desolation, nor a period of captivity, but a period during which Babylon was allotted the rule of its empire -- from the fall of Assyria in 610 bc until 540 bc, when Cyrus defeated Lydia and turned his attention against the city of Babylon, which fell the following year. In 607 bc Nebuchadnezzar led the Babylonian army across the River Euphrates, into the holy land, in a four year conquest which ended in 603 bc when Daniel 1:1,2,34 declared his the "head of gold." 2520 years after 607 bc, in 1914 ad, World War I began, which in four years not only ruined the ruling houses of Europe, but freed the Holy Land from the Ottoman Empire, allowing Jewish National Hopes to sprout again. The parallel is precise -- 607 - 603 bc, 2520 years later, is 1914 - 1918 ad, the space of World War I.

(c) The last Jubilee of Israel is clearly marked in Scripture, but it has been overlooked because it did not fit Barbour's chronology. Ezekiel 40:1, according the Talmud, was the date of Israel's 17th Jubilee -- the one Ezekiel 7:13 says would go unobserved, because Israel would not be in their land. That is where God broke the type. 50 Jubilees later take us to 1878, when Israel's land-rights were restored.

(d) Christ's return was in 1874, as the 1335 days terminate there, and are unchanged.

(e) The Millennium is the 7th thousand year period from Adam, and therefore will commence at the end of 6000 years -- namely 2043, evidently the end of the harvest. Finally this resolves the problem Bro. Russell, in R2739, acknowledged he could not resolve. He never denied the Millennium was the 7th millennium from Adam. But he also affirmed that the Millennial Reign of Revelation 20:4 could not begin until all the jewels were complete, and also not until the Gentile Times had concluded. In his day these seemed to be two contradictory things -- and thus he says the problem may not be fully resolved until the end of the Millennium. Now, however, it can be resolved. It is both the 7th Day, and also begins when all the jewels have been raised. Because now both are about 40+ years ahead of us.

(f) Christ's reign as conquering king has begun -- as of his return and the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15). His reign as officiating priest for the world, together with the other saints / priests, awaits the Millennium, per Revelation 20:6.

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Thank you for your time.
In His Service,
bro. allen j.

Bro Allan
I have a different opinion on how to fix the chronology problem regarding the 607 BC date. Because of the repeating pattern of chronology cycles of 1845, 1260-2520, 2500 that reach from the end of Adams first day up to the start of the second Adams day or the seventh day, I don’t see how we can change the chronology in such a major way.

Changing anything in a major way would destroy those patterns, and while I can’t claim infallibility in regard to them, they fit the Divine Plan of the ages and other things regarding the scriptures to well for them to be an accident. I think that only small changes can be made and actually only a couple of small changes are needed to fix the problem. Here is a summery of what I think.

First of all I think that the period of Judges is 450 years and that the 1 Kings 6:1 scripture of 480 years is not giving us a total count of the year during the time period mentioned in that verse, but that it is giving a total count of how many years that they were in complete control of the land. The years that they were under oppression or didn't have control if subtracted from the total count years that we think are in that time period equal exactly 480 years.

The period of Kings should remain the same as is found in the second volume. I have found some independent evidence related to the reason for the 70 years of desolation that shows that there should be 7x70 or 490 years from the beginning of the reign of king Saul, to the death of Josiah who was the last independent king of Judah. That is exactly what the second volume has for that period. We also see from Ezekiel chapter 4, 390 years from the splitting of the kingdom to the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem.

The date 607 BC is the date that Nebuchadnezzar first crossed into Palestine as you say. The carrying away to Babylon would have then occurred in 586-7 BC. If we make that change to come into agreement with modern historical evidence, then we need to find another 20 years in the count of the years if we are to keep the dates as found in the second volume the same.

We think that the solution to that problem is that Joshua should not have been counted as part of the 450 years of the judges. We think that his total time should have been 26 years, of which if we subtract 6 for the dividing of the land, we then have 20 years left for him. How we get those numbers is to complicated for this post, we will post it later if wanted.

Adding that 20 years back into the count of the years then fixes the problem of the 607 BC date. The 7-year overlap period that is in the post you gave is indeed valid. The 603 BC date is actually the date that the bible calls Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold, or when he had complete control of Palestine. Exactly 2520 years later is not only the end of WW1, but it is the time of the Belfour declaration, where England proclaimed the idea that Israel should have a home in Palestine. About 30 years later it became a reality.

I have all of this documented in greater detail on a personal web site, but I need some time to update the files on the period of the judges and the portion on the 607 BC changes need to be updated, since I have made some necessary changes to explain some things more clearly since I did those files. The PDF writer that I used was set for PDF version 5 and I need to redo the files so that version 3 can read them. If you are interested in looking at these files let me know and I will spend some time and get them corrected and revised.

I know that there is an alternate explanation out there, which I am supposed to have a copy of from my son since this weekend on my computer but I haven’t had time to look. I will comment further when I get a chance to look at it. I think that all of those changes while tempting are not correct.
A Servant of the Lord
Defender

Peace, Blessings & Love to You Defender & All Readers:

Thank you for your thoughts, I do look forward to your in-depth study on this subject. I too am quite confident in our Pastor's chronological work. The only reason I brought this up, is to see what other brethren's thoughts were on it.

I don't believe we will make our calling & election sure on chronology alone, but its nice to have a comfortable feeling about the time line.

If you would like to correspond to me directly, I am on the Old Ron List, allen j. zembik.

Of the One Bread, The One Body, Serving the Lord of All,
bro. allen j.

...because you asked...

that this is an attempt to walk into the kingdom with our fingers in our ears... not listening [again] to the message,while claiming to know the messenger. The Chronology was a key part of the 7th message... is it impure?... is it faulty?

To hold the 6000 years end in 2043 and yet insist the other dates would not significantly change is quite interesting. I guess you would not dare attack too much of the message at once.

I don't comment in a state of heated argument... actually I'm quite puzzled and surprised at the argument...tears formed in my eyes when I read it... O if we could all just go back to the message and put away our need to gaze up on the mountain... and just listen to what was taught, and at the results that followed after his death when the organization came tumbling down and shattered in so many fragments... very humpty dumpty like.

Remember that the followers of Wesley, Luther and so many more huddled around their teachings [so they claim] after those servants died, and yet, in effect, what they really did, was claim to be faithful to the respective messengers and yet violate most of what they taught. Lutherans are now quite friendly toward that system they once protested so well. Few Methodists even know what John Wesley taught regarding Rev 22:17... and his wish not to develop a "Methodist Church" was violated even before his body was cold. So now, many cling to Bro Russell, but don't believe much of what he taught regarding the of the age... and have no end of speculative ideas as to WHAT MIGHT OR COULD BE. That is what surprises me the most,... that in spite of his many warnings illustrated by stories like those I just related... the majority [Great company] clung to the messenger and forsook the message. It is a sadness to me... but the Lord will prevail, and will bless us all in His own due time.

Peace, Love & Blessings to you dear brethren:

Bro. jonalfred I want you to know that I too agree with you. The wise and faithful servants calculations do me just fine and I have not need to second guess him.

The thoughts presented in "What think ye" are thoughts of another wonderful dear brother, (speculations perhaps)I don't know. I was curious as to what others may think of these speculations.

I was touched by your message.

In His Service,
bro. allen j.

... went back and looked, and you didn't say anything about who's views they were, so I assumed they were yours.... anyway... God bless you too

As many of you know I have been working on proving the Bible Student chronology correct for many years. It now appears that the work I have been doing is necessary to combat what I consider to be, the new false chronology. Beside that, we also have to counter the book “Reconsidering the Gentile Times” by Olaf Johnson who has attacked the 607 BC dating by the JW’s, which indirectly affects us.

It appears that the Lord has kept back some information on the chronology because he knew that there would be a major challenge to it in the last times that we are in now! Several years ago I found that much of the chronology as found in the volumes is part of a much greater pattern, that reaches from Adams first day to the seventh day. If we place a midpoint in regard to the 7000 years in 626.25 BC or 607 BC, these three patterns are symmetrical about that center point. Hab 3:2 O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy. KJV

These patterns also intersect several key bible dates, which makes it impossible to change the chronology even by one year, unless the changes are in pairs and cancel each other out. In the only such change, which I think is necessary to fix the 607 BC question, the only way that the change can be made without disrupting the chronology is that the change has to be inside the same space between the chronology circles as taken as a whole. I will supply a link to the total pattern later in this post that will show that the balancing changes cannot be very far apart or they would disrupt all three chronology patterns. We consider that topic and the others that we mention here in much greater detail if you look at the complete books as found in the web site.

Since I think that the chronology is very important to our under standing of the Divine Plan and the prophecy as found in the bible, I have spent the last few days updating the web page, which shows that the Bible Student chronology is correct and can’t be changed as has been advocated in the last few years.

For part of what this book is about for those who have not seen it, click on the link below for proof that the 1845-year chronology is correct. Since there is graphics on these pages it may take some time to load, especially with a phone modem. With a cable modem, you should only have a brief delay. Let me know if there is any problem with reading the files because I could only get the Adobe PDF writer to write in version 4, which I think is still readable with version 3, but if not the newer version 4 or 5 reader is free.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/Wheels.pdf

Here is proof that the 1260 and the 2520 year chronology is correct.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/2520PATTERN.pdf

Here is proof that the 2500 year pattern as derived from the tabernacle is correct. Go to the second page of this section to view the pattern.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/TABERNACLE.pdf

Here is the all three patterns together, which shows that God has had complete control over the execution of his plan all through the ages.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/COMPLETEPATTERN.pdf

There is much more in this book, such as how we can see the Ezekiel Cherubs and the Revelation Living creatures and more in the chronology patterns that you have just seen. To see that and to start in the beginning of this book, click on the next link. Caution, each section may have more than one page in it. Use the arrows on top to move between thee pages.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/INDEX2.pdf

The section on the Divine Plan and its Chronology has not changed very much for those of you who have seen this work before, but the explanation on the 607 BC date has a great deal of new information than it did not have previously.

We have added a large amount of new information on the 70 years of desolation and why there had to be 70 years. This study uncovered the idea that there were 70 X 7 Sabbath years from the time that Saul became king until Josiah, who was the last independent king was killed at Megiddo. We explain why the Jubilee years are not counted in this initial calculation in this document. Those 490 years confirms that the period of the Kings cannot be changed!

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/CHANGE607.pdf

There is also more information on the 1260, 1290, 1335 years and how there may be a second prophetic application for the literal nation of Israel which is related to the problems that we have with Islam at this time. The first application as found in the volumes still points to 1799, 1829, and 1874 AD and the false church state system.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/ISLAM-PAR.pdf

This is the link to the start of the timeline booklet.

http://webpages.charter.net/defender/INDEX.pdf

Please give me some feedback on this work regarding whether the web pages are usable. We would also like to know what you think about this work, good or bad, so that we can make improvements or corrections. If you think it is totally baloney, we would like to know that also.
A Servant of the Lord
Defender

Is everyone speechless? We would like to get some feedback on this work either positive or negative. We think that this work is important in regard to proving that the bible student chronology is correct as it was originally presented. We would appreciate some comments on this web site! Can you access it and does any of it make sense?
A Servant of the Lord
Defender

In regards to the possibility of another 40 period as stated:

You State: So the question becomes,do we have 40 years from 1986,1989 or 1993 in which to complete this return,just as the church had 40 years to escape Babylon?The Oct 1989 to April 1993 would be parallel to the similar period from Oct 1874-April1878.If thats true might not there be another 40 year period here,which applies to the nation of Israel this time?We don't know for sure,but if so,it might mark the final end of Gentile powers that still oppose her by time!

*For arguments sake lets say this was so.To me the deciding factor would become inconclusive simply because as :
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
states a shortning of days will take place in the midst of any possible parallel time frame.

My point or conclusion is that what we ponder is most likely no more than speculation at times but for those of the Kingdom age soon to follow it will be our legacy and history in retrospect which will teach many valuable lessons and reveal the time prophecies in their true sense.We like they can only place correctly that which is behind us in correct order somewhat.The future is purposely left a mystery with only enough clues as to help us see the nearness of the events foretold for our quidance.We try so hard to fit all the pieces together and it is my conclusion until God gives us all the pieces of the puzzle we will progress only as fast as he allows.We as his developing children can do no more than what the father allows.So we see the confusion and separations of our day because well meaning men of the past tried in vain to make things fit before Gods design and plan where made plain.To many strange puzzle pieces!

A pattern exist that for some reason has made some during the present and near past feel it necessary to arrange all things to fit their personnel life span.Look at the leaders of the past and always each before they died felt compelled to make all truth known as if they where the final hope for its delivery.Pastor Excluded,he alone new his part well!To force so much into so short a span is what has caused so many different beliefs it seems.In any case can you see my point in the fact that even if we new all the times and seasons correctly the simple fact is the one idea given that during the final days one time period will be cut short no matter what we call it or how we view it.How short and when?That my brother is for the Kingdom brethren to marvel at and I am sure when they see the wisdom God used in our day for the establishment of the coming kingdom about to unfold it will be of such grand design we who where part of it will also stand in awe of his wisdom.Below is the only how and when we can trust!

Remember this:Matt.24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It would seem to me that this is our final information concerning time periods for the end time as what occurs soon after will be obvious to the whole world.Their is no way to prove what is exact at this time except to say all will be made plain to all very soon.God bless you in your marvelous work.Oh I have some trouble opening some of the links you offer on my very slow home P.C. but my work P.C. does pretty good.I would like the book explaining all this if possible.Your Brother In Christ.Mike.Great Job!

I agree that there is no way that we could know the day nor the hour. The 40 years that I mentioned is not anything that would have anything to do with the church anyway. The part of the diagram where we were discussing the 40 in relationship has to do with the blessing of the nation of Israel, so the church would have to be comnpleted before that time.

Its not clear that we could extend that part 40 years anyway because the 40 years from 1874 to 1914 is independant of the chronology from Daniel and that would probably be true in this situation also. We were essentially wondering aloud about this, trying to give a little food for thought.
Defender