The Great Pyramid's Testimony Regarding the Gospel Age
June 27 2008 at 3:52 PM
WildernessVoice (Login WildernessVoice) from IP address 98.212.214.241
In the Great Pyramid, the Grand Gallery represents the Gospel Age. The south end of the Grand Gallery begins at a point which is indicated by measurements to represent the date of our Lord’s resurrection in April of 33 A.D. The length of the Grand Gallery, measured along the floor line is 1881.5 pyramid inches to the north end. Adding 1881.5 to April of 33 A.D. brings us to the date October 1914 as the end of the Gospel Age, as indicated in the Pyramid by the measurement of the Grand Gallery. Thus the date 1914 is literally written in stone as the end of the Gospel Age.
Just as the Great Pyramid’s testimony regarding Bible chronology is undeniable, so also must be its testimony regarding this piece of the chronology – the length of the Gospel Age.
It would neither be logical nor reasonable to suggest that the Pyramid’s testimony on chronology is correct, but then conclude that its testimony regarding the length of the Gospel Age is incorrect. For any to discard the measurement of the Grand Gallery as invalid is to call in question the entire testimony of the Pyramid. To ignore it would be a failure to be honest with ourselves. To discard the Pyramid’s teaching regarding the Grand Gallery would be comparable either to throwing out a scripture because we could not harmonize it with the rest of the Bible, or to ignoring a scripture which did not support our own preconceived ideas.
Brethren may “reason” all they wish about 1914 and what it wasn’t – but the testimony of the Pyramid is clear – 1914 was the end of the Gospel Age. What does this imply? As our Lord’s own words show – “the harvest is the end of the age,” thus indicating that the end of the Gospel Age means also the end of the Gospel Age Harvest.
Note however, that the Pyramid’s testimony says nothing about a date for the completion of the Church. The idea that the Church would be complete by 1914 was an inference made by Bro. Russell. Many brethren today hold onto the idea that the completion of the Church and the end of the Gospel Age must coincide in time. Therefore when they hear me say that the Gospel Age Harvest is over, they mistakenly conclude that I must think the Church is complete. That is most certainly not what I am suggesting.
Here in the Pyramid we have an indication that the end of the Gospel age and the completion of the Church do not coincide in time. The year 1914 has come and gone, and the Church is still not complete. The Pyramid shows that the Gospel Age (and thus the Gospel Age Harvest) ended in October 1914. It is therefore apparent that – and we will state this again so there is no confusion as to what we mean - the end of the Gospel Age and its Harvest does not correspond to the completion of the Church.
How is it possible for the Gospel Age to end before the Church is complete in glory? Bro. Russell thought that the purpose of the Gospel Age was the completion of the Church in glory, and that the Gospel Age would end with the end of Gentile Times. Obviously, this did not happen as expected. As we look back at his expectations, we want to understand not only what he expected, but why he expected what he did. All of the time prophecies, and the parallels, etc. pointed to 1914 as a significant point in time in God’s plan. That is why he originally tied the Church’s completion to the year 1914 – he expected everything connected with this present evil world to end, and the earthly Kingdom to be established immediately.
In retrospect, we believe that the purpose of the Gospel age was not for the completion of the Church in glory, but rather only the completion of the number – otherwise known as the General Call. That call was complete in 1881 when the full number of 144,000 crowns had been assigned and were being run for. Thus, by the year 1881, the purpose of the Gospel age had been realized – the full number of crowns had been assigned. Although the purpose of the Gospel age was realized in 1881, the Lord had indicated that at the end of the age there would be a harvest of that which had been sown, and therefore the full end of the age would not come until the end of that harvest.
The purpose of the Gospel Age harvest was to gather the Lord’s fully consecrated and spirit-begotten children out of Babylon. That is what the term “harvest” suggests – not a sowing work, but a reaping work – a reaping of that which had previously been sowed. The same lesson is given by the drag-net parable – in the time of the harvest the net is dragged to shore, and the sorting of the fish already caught begins.
Note that ALL of the spirit-begotten ones who were in Babylon in 1878 when the Church was called to come out were individuals who came into the true Church under the General Call. Bro. Russell was the voice of the Lord that sent forth the message – “Come out of her my people.” Note that this was not a message to the unconsecrated to come out of the world, but very specifically a message to the spirit-begotten ones to come out of “her” – to come out of Babylon. The call of the New Creation is manifestly not the Harvest which our Lord spoke of in the parable, because the call of the New Creation went on for almost 1800 years before the Harvest time.
The testimony of the Great Pyramid is that the Gospel Age ended in 1914, and it seems that this conclusion cannot be refuted without violating reason and logic or discarding the Pyramid in its entirety. In harmony with this Truth, when we look at what the end of the Gospel Age Harvest means, we realize that it simply means that the Harvest work of gathering the Lord’s people out of Babylon was accomplished. The Gospel Age and its Harvest has ended, but the call of the New Creation continues.
and I would state that since the harvest ended in Oct 1914, that the reaping ended, for that was the main work of the harvest. The church was not completed in the sense of being beyond the veil for many years to come, but it is clear as your argument shows, that all of its members had to have been harvested (reaped) while the harvest was still open... and it has been 94 years since it closed.
Yes jonalfred, the reaping has been over for 94 years. But this was the reaping of individuals from Babylon, and does not include their going beyond the Vail. The Call of the New Creation is still open. The ending of the Harvest and the Gospel Age has nothing to do with the continuance of the Call of the New Creation after the end of the General Call.
you a little contradictory... in that, the general call ended in 1881... the special call to fill those created vacancies was completed "within" the harvest. once the reaping ended the plowing began... Amos 9:13
While many LF members were still in the flesh, all of them were reaped (cut off from their place of growth in the nominal church). While they still had some development to do, the tare burning had begun and the harvest reaping was over... the orgazational structure the Lord used to do this work began to separate and divide and withing a couple of years there were several groups refusing to call the others brethren. Today there are many... it is like a reenactment of the great Tower of Babel... It is evidence of the completion
You stated:
you a little contradictory... in that, the general call ended in 1881... the special call to fill those created vacancies was completed "within" the harvest. once the reaping ended the plowing began... Amos 9:13
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I think you misunderstand. There is no scriptural support, nor is there any support from the writings of Bro. Russell to suggest a time limit upon how long it would take to complete the Body of Christ. The ending of the General Call is not the closing of the door.
I think that you are still mixing ideas here. The Harvest was to get the saints out of Babylon - it was not for the completion of the Church in glory.
The Plowman (Time of Trouble) did overtake the reapers. The reaping work was gathering the saints out of Babylon. That reaping work was complete when all the spirit-begotten had been gathered out of the system. In some senses the Time of Trouble began 1874, but regarding this symbolic picture of the plowman overtaking the reaper, I think that 1914 is indicated, since it was here that Armageddon began.
The reaping work was not the Call of the New Creation, therefore the beginning of the work of the plowman does not affect the Call. It only affects the Harvest Work - the work of getting the "wheat" out of the system. This is how the Harvest could end, and yet the Call of the New Creation continues.
Yes, the Harvest is the END of the age. Bro. Russell thought that its purpose was the call of the New Creation, which is why he thought it would all be finished in 1914.
In retrospect we see that the purpose of the Gospel Age was only the General Call, which ended in 1881. The purpose of the Harvest was to gather the spirit-begotten ones who were called under the General Call, out of the system. I believe that I addressed this point in my original post.
The Harvest proper was the gathering of the saints out of Babylon before its fall. This is a point, it seems, which neither the LHMM nor Bible Students with "future" views seem to be able to grasp.
...it's because all knowledge lives and dies with you?
actually, the general call ceased in 1878 from the viewpoint that the full number was in... that number was tested between that date and 1881 and then the replacement process began. Any who would be aspirants from that point forward would have to come out of Babylon in order to be faithful. there were five callings during this time as shown in Matt 20... and their were five harvest siftings that tested those called. The process was finished by the harvest's end, as all harvests are finished by the harvests end. The fields were plowed under and the burning of the tares began. When were you reaped brother? How is it you can be in the LF and not be reaped as wheat? What other grain did the Lord allow in His parables? Come now and let us reason together.
...it's because all knowledge lives and dies with you?
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I thought we were having a civil discussion here. Your response suggests to me that you realize you don’t have a satisfactory answer, and you are resorting to a personal attack to divert attention away from this fact. Either that or you feel threatened by what I posted. Just keep in mind that this is what I believe - I'm not trying to force it on you.
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actually, the general call ceased in 1878 from the viewpoint that the full number was in... that number was tested between that date and 1881 and then the replacement process began.
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Actually, according to the parallels presented by Bro. Russell in the second volume, 1881 is the year that the General Call ceased. This knowledge didn’t come from me, but from Bro. Russell - but I have verified this truth in my own studies. I assume your idea came from PSL Johnson.
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Any who would be aspirants from that point forward would have to come out of Babylon in order to be faithful. there were five callings during this time as shown in Matt 20... and their were five harvest siftings that tested those called. The process was finished by the harvest's end, as all harvests are finished by the harvests end. The fields were plowed under and the burning of the tares began.
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The burning of the Tares began before the end of the Harvest. The Tares were all burned by 1918. This still has nothing to do with the Call of the New Creation.
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When were you reaped brother? How is it you can be in the LF and not be reaped as wheat? What other grain did the Lord allow in His parables? Come now and let us reason together.
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Well, I have already explained this. You still hold the mistaken idea that the Harvest and the Call of the New Creation are the same thing. They are not. Obviously you don't understand this, and I am not sufficient to make it clear to you. I know you follow PSL Johnson's teachings. That is your choice - I do not bear you any ill will.
WV
This message has been edited by WildernessVoice from IP address 98.212.214.241 on Jun 30, 2008 4:43 PM This message has been edited by WildernessVoice from IP address 98.212.214.241 on Jun 30, 2008 4:39 PM This message has been edited by WildernessVoice from IP address 98.212.214.241 on Jun 30, 2008 4:14 PM
wv:I thought we were having a civil discussion here. Your response suggests to me that you realize you don’t have a satisfactory answer, and you are resorting to a personal attack to divert attention away from this fact. Either that or you feel threatened by what I posted. Just keep in mind that this is what I believe - I'm not trying to force it on you.
jon: sorry you didn't get that... it came from Job... you need to seek to discern between an attack and a little tongue in cheek. You are trying to be civil (?) "Obviously you don't understand this, and I am not sufficient to make it clear to you." Sounds more like you are not presenting your opinion... but you "know" you're right about it all, therefore I must be wrong. Let's see if we can find one single person who agrees with your theory... so far you have admitted that Bible Students of every hue cannot see what you see. can you see the humor in that?
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wv: Actually, according to the parallels presented by Bro. Russell in the second volume, 1881 is the year that the General Call ceased. This knowledge didn’t come from me, but from Bro. Russell - but I have verified this truth in my own studies. I assume your idea came from PSL Johnson.
jon: actually, he shows in volume 2 that this is a process that began in 1878 and ended in 1881 as to the closing of the general call. There were no begettals between these years... just a testing on the begotten... as the testing on them was part of the ending of the general call.
if it came from psl Johnson, then it wasn't my idea... he was appointed by Bro Russell... not by me. This all happened before he came in the truth. Bro Russell showed that the replacement process came beginning in 1881.
wv: Well, I have already explained this. You still hold the mistaken idea that the Harvest and the Call of the New Creation are the same thing. They are not. Obviously you don't understand this, and I am not sufficient to make it clear to you. I know you follow PSL Johnson's teachings. That is your choice - I do not bear you any ill will.
jon: the call began in the beginning of the Gospel Age... in the Jewish Harvest... The Gospel Harvest is the end of the call... you have admitted the genereal call ended... the reaping ended... all by 1914... you are twisting the picture that shows the gathering of the grains in the harvest. There are other harvest works that took place in these last members after 1914, but it could not be done to any who weren't actually reaped. Reaping signifies a removal from ones former place of growth... the fields were white to harvest IN THE HARVEST... all who made the LF were already there. You were not even born. and by the way... yes, this is my opinion please chill
It does look like the harvests are the beginning and ending of the ages. Makes sense. Even the 40 year brethren believe the Gospel Age is long gone, but believe that spirit begettal continues into the Millennial Age, even though the Pastor said the only way we can be sure we are spirit begotten includes that we are living in the Gospel Age.
If the harvest is the end of the Age, and yet the harvest is over, then what is in Scripture that shows spirit begettal continues, except wishful thinking?
I hear some brethren accuse Jehovah of trifling with them, if the crowns are gone and they are blessed enough to be given insight into the Plan. As I recall, the Pastor told everyone that a consecration was always in order but that at the end, there may not be crowns available. If there were no crowns available, would you be better off not knowing the Truth, or knowing the Truth and being able to receive comfort that this is not all there is?
To me it is a tremendous blessing to have God’s spirit and to know the truth, even if we get nothing else out of it. But who knows what the Lord has in store - and even if a follower does not receive a crown and is one of the Great Company, who could be more than temporarily disappointed. If a believer is invited to the marriage feast, what a blessing that would be. I am sure we would, with much joy, sing out praise to the Most Holy God of Heaven and to our Lord Jesus.
This message has been edited by cecaine from IP address 98.214.219.65 on Jul 2, 2008 4:36 PM This message has been edited by cecaine from IP address 98.214.219.65 on Jul 2, 2008 4:34 PM
and if one were to find he was never invited to a spirit reward, would he still not be blessed with life? that is the point. and the answer is always yes. The clay has no right to complain to the potter. So we study to show OURSELVES approved unto God... and then wait for the manifestation of His will.
has the duty to obey the potter and bend his willl unto the will of the potter; NOT sitting around saying I'll take what I get. By deciving others with your own deception I think you have completely missed the object of why the Lord gave you an understanding of the truth. You were not called to an earthly calling, there is no earthly calling. Show one scripture that supports your belief.
Your understanding seems to be that everyone that understands is called, regardless of what the Pastor said about available crowns in the end. You may just end up back on this planet, and the wrong attitude would be " I got ripped off."
pn PT, something called "yedda" stopped me the other day.
Jim I must not be coming thru; I didn't say anything about crowns. There is only one call and we have no complete understanding about it.
But if you learn and believe Present Truth (Lord has returnesd) that is an indication that God is dealing with you in trgard to the High Calling; you would first be called to stand in line, your progress would depend on your faith, you may never go further than this but at least you have had this much recognition by Jehovah.
I certainly didn't intend that everyone claiming PT would be running for a crown. To me this indicates that the High Calling is NOT completed.
Yes! It is very true that I may be all wet and will be here in the flesh but I don't think so.
If you lose faith in your being called then you definetly lose. The reason you received PT was to encourage you in the narrow way in MHO. Have a agood day Jim.
Bob Jones Psalm 50:5
Show me where it is said that not believing one is called would cancel any crown or send to the Great Company. I don't see it and I am not concerned. I do the best I can, which is not much. I am happy to know about the Plan and that is good enough for me. I don't need a crown, but if one was given me...so be it. I run to please God as best I can. Crown in sight or not...no change in program.
I will use ALL CAPS for emphasis, so be advised that I AM NOT SHOUTING.
We know exactly what our goal is - Rev. 2:10 - "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life."
Hear what the Apostle Paul had to say:
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I THEREFORE SO RUN, NOT AS UNCERTAINLY; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
R.2120
"The Apostle illustrates this by the Olympic games of his day, prominent amongst which was foot-racing. Racers were set free to run, so we as Christians are set free from the law that we may run our race and win the great prize; but he that complies with certain recognized conditions, and "so runs," shall be crowned an overcomer.
Consecrated Christians have entered the lists, to run the great race for the prize of our high calling in Christ Jesus--the prize of joint-heirship with him in the kingdom of glory, to be established at his second coming. We start on our race course not aimlessly, not hopelessly, not simply for the sake of denying ourselves, not to do penance for sins, nor simply for the sake of developing character; but the Lord has graciously arranged the matter so that we will have a grand and noble incentive to self-denial. The prize at the end of the race is his "Well done, good and faithful servant;" and to the faithful little flock "the crown of life" and the glory of the Kingdom. THEREFORE WE ARE NOT RUNNNING UNCERTAINLY, DOUBTFULLY, NOT KNOWING WHAT THE PRIZE WILL BE, for we are instructed by the Lord's own words." (end of quote)
R4809
"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air."--`I Cor. 9:26`.
THE APOSTLE PAUL HAD DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHAT CONSTITUES THE PRIZE. He was not uncertain about it; IT WAS NOT A QUESTION WITH HIM AS TO ITS BEING ONE THING OR ANOTHER. St. Paul knew that the "high calling in Christ Jesus" is that we may be heirs with him, if we suffer with him--that we shall be with him in glory. Neither was the Apostle uncertain as to the terms and conditions of the race. He knew that they were even unto death; and that if he should seek to save his life he would lose it. Neither was he uncertain as to his own determination. HE KNEW POSITIVELY THAT HE HAD ENTERED THE COURSE. He was not of those who merely say, "I hope to do so some time." He had made with the Lord his covenant of sacrifice unto death.
NOR WAS THE APOSTLE UNCERTAIN AS TO HIS OPPORTUNITY TO GAIN THE PRIZE. He knew that it remained with him to will and to do in harmony with God's good pleasure. He knew that nothing impossible was required of him in this race; that the terms and conditions of the race include "grace to help in every time of need"; and that this grace and help would come from the Lord. Hence, the Apostle's expression that, for the runners in this race-course, there was no uncertainty, from first to last.
Thus it may be with all under the guiding eye of the Great Redeemer. We may each make our calling and election sure: "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall, for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."--`2 Pet. 1:10,11`. (end of quote)
Rev 2:10 be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
E.490
And here again we behold the wonderful wisdom of the divine plan; for it is while performing his priestly ministry of "the word of reconciliation" to which the spirit of anointing impels, that each priest finds the necessity for offering up himself, a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, and his reasonable service. Rom. 12:1
Hence the measure of self-sacrifice and sufferings for Christ, endured by each of the consecrated, becomes a measure (from God's standpoint--for man cannot always discern it) of the faithfulness of each as ambassadors. Every priest who fails to suffer for Christ's sake, for the Truth's sake, must therefore have been an unfaithful ambassador and minister of the New Covenant. And only to those now faithful as good soldiers of the cross will be granted the inestimable privilege of being participators with the great High Priest in the glorious at-one-ment work under the favorable conditions of the Millennial age. If we suffer with him we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also [then] deny us. Rom. 8:17; 2 Tim. 2:12,13; Titus 1:16
Take heed that no man take thy crown. Rev. 3:11
"Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev. 2:10 (end of quote)
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling;
NS415:5
“THE HOPE SET BEFORE US”
The Apostle speaks of the hope set before us as though He would suggest that there are other hopes before the world, and invited some to one and some to another. Quite to the contrary, the Apostle assures us, “Ye are called in one hope of your calling.” (Eph. 4:4) Hence, although there will be a “little flock” of the elect who will gain the Divine nature and a “Great Company” who will receive eternal life on a lower spiritual plane of perfection, these were not separately called. It was the one call, and each one had the opportunity of making his calling and his election sure, and only his own carelessness in running the race prevented his being the winner of the chief prize. With this thought before our minds how careful should all Christians be to, as the Apostle says, “Walk circumspectly,” “run with patience,” “endure hardness,” strive to enter in and attain all the glorious things which God has in reservation for His elect—things beyond anything that eye hath seen or ear heard or the heart of man ever imagined—things which we only know of because God hath revealed them to us through His Spirit. I Cor. 2:9 But while GOD SETS FORTH IN THE PRESENT TIME ONLY ONE HOPE, ONLY THE ONE CALLING, ONLY THE ONE INVITATION, the world sets forth various hopes, various ambitions, various invitations, and urges these persistently. Indeed, the large part of the required overcoming on the part of the elect is the resistance to the blandishments of the world—the resistance to the hopes and ambitions which the world holds out. Hence the Apostle, summing up the whole of our race, declares: “This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” John 5:4 (end of quote)
Therefore, dear brother:
"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward." - Heb. 10:35
WV
This message has been edited by WildernessVoice from IP address 130.126.7.154 on Jul 10, 2008 6:17 AM
WV: My opinion is that we are in the Millennial Age.
Jim: Where is there anything that shows that Gospel Age gifts are held over for 135 years, long past the "Harvest" which is the "End of the Age?"
WV: My view is that the Harvest was the period for the gathering of the saints out of the system prior to its fall. All of these were ones who came in under the call of the Gospel Age - the General Call. Bro. Russell recognized that the end of the General Call did not indicate the closing of the door. Is there a scripture which points this out? No. But if there are continued opportunities for sacrifice, and evidence of spirit-begetal amongst those making consecration of themselves, then this indicates that the door is not shut. There is no scriptural indication of when the Church will be complete, otherwise faith would not be so important.
Jim: Are there any crowns guaranteed to anybody and everybody who applies?
WV: No. Under the General Call, this was true, but not now. Only as a crown becomes available is there a possibility for one to enter in.
Please continue with your questions if I am not hitting the points you would like addressed.
I'm late in noticing this post, sorry.
Glad to read this. Seems like the right thought to me. We are called to get us ready in case a crown becomes available, sorry that I left any other impression. Bob.
Show me where it is said that not believing one is called would cancel any crown or send to the Great Company. I don't see it and I am not concerned. I do the best I can, which is not much. I am happy to know about the Plan and that is good enough for me. I don't need a crown, but if one was given me...so be it. I run to please God as best I can. Crown in sight or not...no change in program.
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Steam says; since you are not concerned, why should I use my time to search for an answer?
The "seed" class has to believe and take action or there would not be a "seed" of Abraham. Jesus believed and took action, our prime example. We can believe this poppy cock about the door being closed or spirit-begettal being ended or we can reject it; what we do affects our destiny, believe it or not!
If the earth is what you want get out of the Lord's way and quit, that seems the right thing to do. Otherwise get on the stick and act like you want the high calling.
Said in Christian Love to my brother, Bob Jones Psalm 50:5
I would rather be in Heaven, but so would every person in "churchianity." Everybody wants to manage, nobody wants to be managed...human nature.
It will be quite humbling for those who think they are going to end up in Heaven to wake up here. Maybe that is what they need...humble pie. Many in the classes look around and point at all the faults in the churches and see no fault in themselves and say that if the door is closed then Jehovah is 'trifling" with them.
The chart shows the Gospel Age is over.
The Harvest was the beginning and end of the Age.
There are no more to harvest out of Babylon as Babylon is gone.
The Pastor said if we go on and find no increasing light, then we are not progressing. There has been no real increased light in many, many years, and classes are split and don't have much in common...in fellowship of beliefs.
The General Call ended in 1881, yet the Lord cannot complete the Church without replacements for 134 years? The Lord sees past and future and knows all things. He knows who would make it before they were born. What possible reason to keep begetting people that He knows will never make it? I don't buy it.
I am learning how to live on earth now that I have given up this nonsense idea that the door is open. Exercise, eat right, and live a moral life. Laziness will not be tolerated, nor will gluttony. A person needs no more than 2000-2500 calories a day to live.
r5950 does not say the Harvest continues for another 300 years. It said the Harvest continued when he wrote it. That means there were still spirit begotten in the church systems.
Should I end up in Heaven as a Crown winner, Great Company, or here on earth as a mere mortal human, or even in the Second Death, I leave it in the Lord's hands.
If the Door is closed, that means nobody we know is anointed with the Holy Spirit, and that would help explain why some who claim to be anointed are caustic and mean-spirited.
We'll see.
I will be telling my class that these are my feelings in the next week or so, and I would appreciate if those who gossiped about this the last time would keep their mouths shut for another 2 weeks. I know this is almost an impossible task for people with no spirit begetting.
This message has been edited by Br_Jim from IP address 71.142.49.203 on Jul 19, 2008 9:04 AM
back back back deep into the archives of the Present Truth Forum... use the search feature and you can bring up thread after thread of my supporting arguments.... I have not changed so they should suffice... then you can disagree with me all over again... but you see, the world already knows that we do not see eye to eye. Will you feel better if we argue about it? Why not let it be... If you would not accept the thousands of words already typed out, you would not accept what I would type tonight... and quite frankly, I have many other things to do.
I believe that if one has been called and has received the blessing of the God's spirit and also is a consecrated follower of the Lord, that he has forfeited the redeemed clay, with no hope of ever reclaiming it. I can see it no other way.
Never the less – supposing one did find that he was resurrected in the flesh, would he be disappointed. I’m sure that would be very much so. Then would he accept the wonderful gift of everlasting life as perfect man in the earthly kingdom; I would be inclined to think so. But again would that be likely -- not likely.
who stated that God is the rewarder. That consecration would always be in order and that the majority should NOT EXPECT TO BE GLORIFIED... that there would be plenty of blessing to go around for those not invited to the high call. IT is really a matter of time time time. Chronology doesn't permit the Gospel Age to last longer than 1845 years from parallel post to parallel post. The Time of trouble began right on time bringing it to a close. The winds were set free just as the pastor described and here we are in a world where they are hundreds of different views floating around in the heads of Bible Students, who seem to disagreee on most everything EXCEPT that the door is still open.
Still NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER except through the Son... and that will ALWAYS be true... and STILL no one come through the Son unless the Father draw him... that will never change in a faith age...
Bro Russell brought all this up long ago and has talked about only a minority of the consecrated being actually spirit begotten from almost the beginning of the Watch Tower's publications... because he knew that the general call was OVER in 1881 completely and that replacements would be begotten of the spirit only as openings appeared. For this call to still be open, there would have to have been total failure over and over by the supposed blessed followers of Christ... and yet all that was necessary to fill these spots was already in the field when it was white to the harvest. The workers continued in the vineyard through the third, sixth, ninth and eleventh hours, and then it was done.
Before anyone on this board was born it was done, and not amount of wishing will make it a possibility to get into a door that is shut. The prophecies all agree... the chronologies all agree... and in order to make it appear as open you must change the words and teachings of THAT SERVANT to say something he never taught.
The Time of Trouble is a sign
The Nation of Israel is a sign
The splintered confused condition of the Bible Student world is a sign
... and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.” Ps. 40:1,2 --- Let us suppose that the call is long gone; the crowns have been taken; we are long past the last post in the parallel and in the early years of the millennial reign of our Lord (I do believe that). I know that at the present time there are many Bible Students, sound in the Truth, who do believe that the call is still going on and that there are crowns waiting for those who have successfully run their course. The reason I know that is, I get a considerable amount of literature from Bible Student publications that clearly show that they do believe the door is still open. Otherwise, why would they even pursue the consecrated life with obvious hope of being joint-heirs with our Lord Jesus?
But then if it is true that the call is gone with no crowns available, and no spiritual rewards, why does the spirit of the Lord still work in a certain class of believers who are well versed in the Truth, who feel compelled to follow the Lord in the narrow and difficult way that few find?
And of those who have waited patiently for the Lord, did they happen to seek the Lord one day because it seemed like a good idea? Or did the Lord draw them to his Son and bless them with the spirit of joy, knowledge and understanding. Obviously these Bible Students have been blessed with the spirit of the Lord or they would not be much different than their nominal brethren. Does any person seek out the Truth due to a high intellectual gift. Hardly seems likely that would happen.
So if the Lord is still very actively working in the hearts of his true and faithful followers, is there a reward? …. and if so what would it be? If there is no reward, then for what purpose does the Lord still provide spiritual gifts to this class of believers?
If you claim the only reward the Lord will offer is to be in Heaven, that is quite sad. It means that you think that life on Paradise will be less than paradisic.
Were the prophets and Ancient Worthies offered the heavenly hope? Were they drawn and led? Just because all crowns may be gone, would the Lord then step back and ignore those who yearn for Him? What is David's reward? Abraham? Solomon? Job? Just offered a bunch of dirt?
This message has been edited by Br_Jim from IP address 71.142.52.117 on Jul 4, 2008 4:49 PM
The Ancient Worthies are assured a reward – certainly; that is made very clear in scripture. Their trial is past; they have proven themselves and will be resurrected as perfect men with key positions in Christ’s kingdom here on earth. But that arrangement took place in the Patriarchal and Jewish ages when there was no spiritual reward offered. But in the Gospel Age, and now in our day in the early millennial age, I know of no earthly reward offered. I quite agree that the earthly Paradise will be very wonderful (probably more than we can even imagine), but it is not a reward for any except the Ancient Worthies who receive a better resurrection based on merit for past service. And it might be interesting to note that a reward is for something given or received in return or recompensed for service, merit, hardship or something like that. If there is an earthy reward in the present age, I would be interested in finding out where it is stated in scripture and how one would peruse it. What kind of service to the Lord would one perform now in this world to merit this earthly reward? Everyone is assured a probationary trial for life in the earthly kingdom based on the merit of the atonement sacrifice provide by our Lord, but that is not a reward based on a special promise and trial in the present world. The only thing offered now is spiritual – it is spiritual or nothing. That is not to say that any that have vowed consecration and death to the flesh and it wasn’t accepted won’t find themselves here in the earthly kingdom. If that is what you are saying, I agree. But that doesn’t take anything away from those who are successively making their calling and election sure.
And it might be that those who are now justified by the merit of Christ’s atonement, living in reasonable obedience to the Lord and are not seeking any spiritual reward, may have some advantage in the earthly Kingdom; that would seem reasonable, and I can agree with that.
With all of the above in mind, I would wish to ask two questions of you, because I truly do want to fully understand your position on these important issues.
First: Are all of the many Bible Students who are currently seeking and hoping for a spiritual reward (as is clear from the many Bible Student publications) deluded and their hopes all pure folly?
Second: What kind of service to the Lord would one perform now in this world to merit an earthly reward in the earthly Kingdom above and beyond what is already assured to all men by the grace of God – and where in Scripture is it stated that there is such a reward?
First: Are all of the many Bible Students who are currently seeking and hoping for a spiritual reward (as is clear from the many Bible Student publications) deluded and their hopes all pure folly?
Possibly. I am only one man, and I may be wrong. There are many solid moral people in the world who believe things that are just not so. It seems that moral, God fearing and loving people who trust in the Lord receive peace in their lives.(Rom5:1) Who besides Bible Students have hopes that are not partially folly? Are we still in the Gospel Age? When does this age end, if we are still in it? Do Gospel favors exist past this age? Where is this shown, either by the Pastor or Scripture? Was the Harvest the beginning and the end of the age? How long did the Pastor mean when he said in 1916 that the Harvest continues? Did he mean it would run for hundreds of years and destroy all the symmetry and harmony of the Plan?
Second: What kind of service to the Lord would one perform now in this world to merit an earthly reward in the earthly Kingdom above and beyond what is already assured to all men by the grace of God – and where in Scripture is it stated that there is such a reward?
Do you have to receive a reward? You will only work for a reward? Is it not a reward to learn that the Lord has shared His plan and the nearness of the Kingdom? Is it not a reward to be able to share this with others? What service? How about sharing the Kingdom hope with others?
Why are there so many splits and hatred among the others? (The "DAWN brethren" vs. "Divine Plan brethren" vs "40 year Harvest Brethren" vs the individual brothers who meet with no others and yet have all the answers?) Why are there mainly brethren only in the US, and most areas that had large numbers of Bible Students now have few or none, such as South Africa which now seems to have just two? Is is possible the Lord is reading hearts now to see who can help out "in the flesh" with the groaning creation...help them out for 1000 years and then be equal with them and be "sons of God" in the time past the Little Season? Is is a reward to be used as a servant?
This message has been edited by Br_Jim from IP address 71.142.52.117 on Jul 4, 2008 7:38 PM
Thanks…you have made a good case and given me food for thought. One of the main things is that we, as followers of or Lord Jesus, get along peacefully and do not harbor animosity toward one another.
First: Are all of the many Bible Students who are currently seeking and hoping for a spiritual reward (as is clear from the many Bible Student publications) deluded and their hopes all pure folly?
answer: yes... they have been taught by their forebears a false hope and this goes back to about 1917... This is Lot and his daughters... so its not about having a bad character... its about being fathered into the truth with a false hope and reading the book through their father's specs
Second: What kind of service to the Lord would one perform now in this world to merit an earthly reward in the earthly Kingdom above and beyond what is already assured to all men by the grace of God – and where in Scripture is it stated that there is such a reward?
answer: Being faithful is always the work at hand and life is always the reward... Joel 2:28 gives a strong clue showing three classes ahead of the daughters (compare to Isa 60). Part of the current work is defending the truth as involved in question one above, but mostly it is preaching the message of a coming earthly kingdom and defending the message as taught by pastor Russell. Funny how the LF today (?) must defile the message of the pastor in order to believe as they do. He clearly taught as to the mission of the Gospel age... that has been done quiet well. In his last months he predicted a great coming separation amongst the brethren that could not be mistaken... that the majority would be the great company and then he died and Rutherford raised up as the driver of the great chariot on fire between the two classes. Its never been the same. Bible Students meanwhile are still waiting for a fulfillment and discounting every thing the pastor taught on the subject. The brethren were in fact divided never to be healed and sub divided many times over into many groups. Go figure
I read your response with much interest as I did also with the response from Br Jim, and appreciate your taking the time to answer the questions I posed. Just as Br Jim did, you present a pretty good case. I will have to give it careful consideration. At the present time there is a significant chasm between where I am now regarding the subject we discussed and the view that was presented. But even so, I find that point of view interesting, and will definitely give it careful consideration.
I like you, do not let these doubting Thomases get you off your track; you are much closer to the truth than they are.
1- The High Calling hasn't ended.
2- People who lose faith begin to figure something out. They may even say to you; Go figure!
3- They never ever present scripture for their stand.
4- They serve Satan by spreading doubt and false
conclusions.
Pastor Russell's last words affected all of his former statements and must be considered in any conclusion about the Gospel Age and the Harvest. Read Reptints 5950-51 and the 1916 Foreword to Vol. 2 carefully.
The Harvest belongs to the ne Age or Millennium. The Gospel is the fact that Jesus died for our sins, it continues for eternitry, doesn't stop! The activities of the Gospel Age will change when the Kingdom of Christ begins in about 200 years. The High Calling will end when the 144,000 are in the air with Jesus. Jesus has 144 years to build the wall or church. Rev. 21:17 That is 1878 to 2022AD.
Johnson departed from Russell by claiming the Church was completed in 1914 by the fact of the ceasing of spirit begttal. Just his statement no scripture to prove it. Russell said it didn't happen, the church was not completed in 1914. Which one should we believe? You have answered the call do not allow a couple of doubters to affect your destiny. Believers believe!
Doubters doubt!
We understand that the High Calling is a lottery pick, and we have a ticket, we probably won't win the big prize but that shouldn't cause us to quit. There is no doubt that God is running these tests of faith for a purpose, quitters won't win anything.
When the Church is finished; is it going to be kept secret?
I don't think so. Rev. 19:11--16.
Br Bob – Thank you very much. And please do no be too concerned that I will make a 180-degree turn just because someone suggests some other interpretation to present truth. I am well founded with confidence in the Lord’s program of restoration and restitution still going forward – with many faithful followers of our Lord Jesus still in the running for the prize of the high calling.
I might add that I find the premise that the door is closed somewhat interesting and will consider the arguments that were made. But for me to budge even a little bit from my well-established belief in the Lord’s ongoing program of the high calling will take some very substantial persuasion. I do understand that the parallels in the chart have long past the last marker, and 1914 ended that allotted time for Gentile nations to have dominion, until He who has the right will then take dominion unto Himself and reign with great power and authority. Nevertheless I am inclined to believe with reasonable certainly, that there is more to the story than is apparent at the present time…. Particularly the finishing work of the high calling and election of the Saints of the Most High God of Heaven. How this can be may not be presently apparent, but it certainly must be true – otherwise how could so many of the Lords most faithful followers be deceived? No, it does not seem likely that would happen.
And again, I thank you for your encouragement to continue on in the faith of Jesus Christ and his program of selecting and completing the Holy Nation.
Yes indeed – Brotherly Love – and my hope and prayer is that the Lord will continue to bless you with the abundance of his spirit and truth.
"otherwise how could so many of the Lords most faithful followers be deceived? No, it does not seem likely that would happen."
Bro Russell thought it would... he said they would be the great company and their cup would be one of bitterness. This is what happened. But the majority never gave up their hope in the high call as such because they were deluded.
1914 is the date the LORD gave for the end of the age... it is not about Pastor Russell.
The last work of the LF on the earth was to complete their work toward the Great Company... Lev. 16:20-22 How could they do this if they were not a complete class?
How do you explain the great division in 1917 of the brotherhood into many varying sections?
How do you explain much of what the messenger taught being discounted?
Bob just screams and jumps up and down... I don't want a fight or to see you upset... I just want a calm answer.
why can you never say,, gee, that must really be that guys opinion? Instead you start making accusations. You only told for lies in your four bullets. Anyone here can go back and see the hundreds of Scriptures cited in the past... besides, you never like it when we do... then you just have to rise up and speak against the Pastor again... as well as the Lord.
