Bro. Harold (no login) from IP address 98.122.142.160
Jim: Christian greetings! The thread where you posted your thoughts is lost in the midst of a myriad of postings, so I thought I'd bring it out in a new and more visible place! I want to tell you that what you have posted has given me much joy! There are so many "pros and cons" (mostly cons) as to what is truth. I can see that you have gained a clear insight as to where God's Divine Plan is in relation to those who are "called and chosen."
You stated: "I believe the door is closed." If I recall correctly, some time ago you were unsure if this was so."
"The chart shows the Gospel Age is over. The Harvest was the beginning and end of the Age. There are no more to harvest out of Babylon as Babylon is gone."
Well said Jim! We can see that from chronology and prophecy that the close of spirit begettal HAD TO END at the close of the Gospel Harvest. We find further corroboration of this in the Tabernacle, the Great Pyramid and the teachings of Bro. Russell.
Consider the thoughts of Pastor Russell as given in volume 6 of the Studies in the Scriptures, "The New Creation" page 399: (I will use caps for emphasis purposes only)
"Before proceeding to notice particularly THE JUDGEMENT OR TRIAL OF THE NEW CREATION DURING THE GOSPEL AGE, PRIOR TO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM, we should impress deeply upon our minds the fact that all of these procedures, judgments, etc., are of the Father, though through the Son and through the Church; even as also we read respecting the resurrection of the dead, that God raised up from the dead our Lord Jesus by his own power, and that he also will raise us up; which statement we understand to be in full harmony with our Lord's declaration that "I will raise him up at the last day." "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." "I am the resurrection and the life." 1 Cor. 6: 14; John 6: 39; 14: 3; 11: 25
THE JUDGEMENT OR TRIAL OF THE NEW CREATION MUST TAKE PLACE DURING THIS GOSPEL AGE, BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM SHALL HAVE BEEN FULLY INTRODUCED; because it is the New Creation, Head and body, which is to do the work of the Millennial age. It is in harmony with this that the Lord declares that we "shall not come into condemnation [krisis, judgment] with the world [not share in the world's Millennial-day judgment or trial], but are [already] passed from death unto life [in advance of the world], " justified by faith and obedience as members of his body. (John 5: 24) So, then, the present time, the present life, is to each of the consecrated ones his day of judgment, his day of trial, his day of testing —to determine whether or not he shall be accounted worthy of life under the terms of his call and consecration. The Apostle's words agree with this: "Judgment [krima, final decision] must begin with the house of God." (1 Pet. 4: 17) As the Apostle suggests, it gives the New Creation an exalted idea of the divine requirements, or conditions for life everlasting, when they consider that those who have forsaken sin and who have set their hearts to know and to do the divine will need to pass through a time of trial to test The New Creation. 400 them and to perfect character in them—such as the Lord can approve
The Pastor said if we go on and find no increasing light, then we are not progressing. There has been no real increased light in many, many years, and classes are split and don't have much in common...in fellowship of beliefs."
You further stated: "The General Call ended in 1881, yet the Lord cannot complete the Church without replacements for 134 years? The Lord sees past and future and knows all things. He knows who would make it before they were born. What possible reason to keep begetting people that He knows will never make it? I don't buy it."
Jim, I think you are "right on the money" here! The call for replacements was for only a short duration and that call ended in Oct. 1914. Nowhere...absolutely nowhere can it be found that the "call" to spirit-begettal would extend beyond that point. To say that it has is to apply "rubber band" thinking to one's hopes or desires! There are no scriptures to support that there would be a second call after the close of the one call.
"I am learning how to live on earth now that I have given up this nonsense idea that the door is open. Exercise, eat right, and live a moral life. Laziness will not be tolerated, nor will gluttony. A person needs no more than 2000-2500 calories a day to live."
Good thoughths Jim, and add to that "continue to study" for it is a lifelong effort that is so essential (and this I am certain you are aware of).
"R5950 does not say the Harvest continues for another 300 years. It said the Harvest continued when he wrote it. That means there were still spirit begotten in the church systems."
Very astute Jim! Very astute!
"Should I end up in Heaven as a Crown winner, Great Company, or here on earth as a mere mortal human, or even in the Second Death, I leave it in the Lord's hands."
"One thing is for sure Jim and that is that spirit begettal has long ago ended. Therefore there need be no worry about a crown or being of the Great Company or of the second death at this time. With the end of spirit begettal there could no longer be crowns awarded, no further membership in the Great Company and no second death at this time. Will there be a second death? Yes, scripture shows us that those who fail to make sufficient progress in the "Times of Restitution" will be "cut off" and will be as "if they never were."
Jim...never fear the thoughts of man! Stand up for the truth no matter the cost! God will love you even more!
Jim: Christian greetings! The thread where you posted your thoughts is lost in the midst of a myriad of postings, so I thought I'd bring it out in a new and more visible place! I want to tell you that what you have posted has given me much joy! There are so many "pros and cons" (mostly cons) as to what is truth. I can see that you have gained a clear insight as to where God's Divine Plan is in relation to those who are "called and chosen."
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Steam: Same books you study Harold! No scriptures showing up here, do you have scripturl support for yout beliefs?
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You stated: "I believe the door is closed." If I recall correctly, some time ago you were unsure if this was so."
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Stream: Another example of one losing his faith and being shoved down into the Great Multitude and you are wondering why it is taking so long to get 144,000?
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"The chart shows the Gospel Age is over. The Harvest was the beginning and end of the Age. There are no more to harvest out of Babylon as Babylon is gone."
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Steam: The Chart shows a dotted line, we tought it was 1914 but we now know it was not 1914, at least some do! But think; the crown wearers are all out of Babylon; but is that all of the Harvest? NO! The Harvest must gain 144,000 crown wearers and will continue untill it does. A certain number of years is indicated in Rev. 21:17 inwhich the Church shallbe built but you are denying that and rejecting he Word of the Lord in your blidness.
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Well said Jim! We can see that from chronology and prophecy that the close of spirit begettal HAD TO END at the close of the Gospel Harvest. We find further corroboration of this in the Tabernacle, the Great Pyramid and the teachings of Bro. Russell.
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Steam: Just give one scripture in support of your belief, plese.
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Consider the thoughts of Pastor Russell as given in volume 6 of the Studies in the Scriptures, "The New Creation" page 399: (I will use caps for emphasis purposes only)
"Before proceeding to notice particularly THE JUDGEMENT OR TRIAL OF THE NEW CREATION DURING THE GOSPEL AGE, PRIOR TO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM, we should impress deeply upon our minds the fact that all of these procedures, judgments, etc., are of the Father, though through the Son and through the Church; even as also we read respecting the resurrection of the dead, that God raised up from the dead our Lord Jesus by his own power, and that he also will raise us up; which statement we understand to be in full harmony with our Lord's declaration that "I will raise him up at the last day." "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." "I am the resurrection and the life." 1 Cor. 6: 14; John 6: 39; 14: 3; 11: 25
THE JUDGEMENT OR TRIAL OF THE NEW CREATION MUST TAKE PLACE DURING THIS GOSPEL AGE, BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM SHALL HAVE BEEN FULLY INTRODUCED; because it is the New Creation, Head and body, which is to do the work of the Millennial age. It is in harmony with this that the Lord declares that we "shall not come into condemnation [krisis, judgment] with the world [not share in the world's Millennial-day judgment or trial], but are [already] passed from death unto life [in advance of the world], " justified by faith and obedience as members of his body. (John 5: 24) So, then, the present time, the present life, is to each of the consecrated ones his day of judgment, his day of trial, his day of testing —to determine whether or not he shall be accounted worthy of life under the terms of his call and consecration. The Apostle's words agree with this: "Judgment [krima, final decision] must begin with the house of God." (1 Pet. 4: 17) As the Apostle suggests, it gives the New Creation an exalted idea of the divine requirements, or conditions for life everlasting, when they consider that those who have forsaken sin and who have set their hearts to know and to do the divine will need to pass through a time of trial to test The New Creation. 400 them and to perfect character in them—such as the Lord can approve
The Pastor said if we go on and find no increasing light, then we are not progressing. There has been no real increased light in many, many years, and classes are split and don't have much in common...in fellowship of beliefs."
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Steam: Why do you reject the Pastor's own words in 1916 but revert bck to 1889? As for the increased light; what about the new light you believe from PSL? Dosen't that count? And how about your statement that you wn't come into condemnation with the world? Scripture please because this is not true!
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You further stated: "The General Call ended in 1881, yet the Lord cannot complete the Church without replacements for 134 years? The Lord sees past and future and knows all things. He knows who would make it before they were born. What possible reason to keep begetting people that He knows will never make it? I don't buy it."
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Steam: The Lord knew before the world began; why would he wait to entertain these efforts of the near past? Because all of this works to illustrate the consequences of one litle sin for the cratures tha are to be created i the future. And I can understand why you don't buy it too. Just doesn't fit your plan does it?
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Jim, I think you are "right on the money" here! The call for replacements was for only a short duration and that call ended in Oct. 1914. Nowhere...absolutely nowhere can it be found that the "call" to spirit-begettal would extend beyond that point. To say that it has is to apply "rubber band" thinking to one's hopes or desires! There are no scriptures to support that there would be a second call after the close of the one call.
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Steam: There ar no scriptures to support the thought that spirit begettel ended in 1914; and you know it.
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"I am learning how to live on earth now that I have given up this nonsense idea that the door is open. Exercise, eat right, and live a moral life. Laziness will not be tolerated, nor will gluttony. A person needs no more than 2000-2500 calories a day to live."
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Steam: Got it all figured out, except your own responsibility to the Lord, he took you by the hand and led you to the Present Truth; how doyou Thank him? You didn't you just quit!
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Good thoughths Jim, and add to that "continue to study" for it is a lifelong effort that is so essential (and this I am certain you are aware of).
"R5950 does not say the Harvest continues for another 300 years. It said the Harvest continued when he wrote it. That means there were still spirit begotten in the church systems."
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Steam: So the remarks made on Reprints 5950-51 and Vol 2 Foreword are nothing to you? You just reject them and swallow what you like.
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Very astute Jim! Very astute!
"Should I end up in Heaven as a Crown winner, Great Company, or here on earth as a mere mortal human, or even in the Second Death, I leave it in the Lord's hands."
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Steam: You will leave it in the Lord's hands because you have no recourse to do otherwise. A favor was offer and you hav rejecte it, don't worry about a crown, you have rejected that.
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"One thing is for sure Jim and that is that spirit begettal has long ago ended.
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Steam: I think you should tell God about it seems like he doesn't know it.
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Therefore there need be no worry about a crown or being of the Great Company or of the second death at this time. With the end of spirit begettal there could no longer be crowns awarded, no further membership in the Great Company and no second death at this time. Will there be a second death? Yes, scripture shows us that those who fail to make sufficient progress in the "Times of Restitution" will be "cut off" and will be as "if they never were."
Jim...never fear the thoughts of man!
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Steam: Does that include PSL Johnson?
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Stand up for the truth no matter the cost! God will love you even more!
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Steam: He has already quit same as you did Harold.
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Don't be too hard on Bro. Jim, and saddle him with a guilt trip on top of everything else. If he does not see that the door is open, then the most logical conclusion is that perhaps his consecration was not accepted. Maybe he never made a proper consecration. One whose mind is filled with doubts and questions about God's program is hardly in a state of mind to make a consecration which requires the exercise of faith.
1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If one does not receive the begetting of the holy spirit, he cannot understand spiritual things, which might explain why Bro. Jim is having such difficulty reconciling where we are on the stream of time with the idea that the Call is still open.
I still contend that there is no scripture which shows when the heavenly calling would end. The reason for this is that faith is required to accept the high calling. And without faith it is impossible to please God.
I think that Jim is to be commended for his integrity and honesty of heart, and we should stand ready to help him in any way we can.
You help Jim your way and I will help him my way. A liar and a thief and a quitter need to be told what they are doing and the consequences of what they are doing. Generally it hurt feelings and wakes them up! Som never learn. Jim obviously knew the truth and has rejected itas nonsense, that can only cost him. There isn't a shred of benefit in such action.
Hoping that the Lord never acepted his consecration is not a hope at all. He made it and no doubt it was accepted. The man knows Present Truth remarkably well; he just fooled with Johnson's books like many others and has rejected the Pastor's words.
Can't you see the test in that? Either you go with Russell or you go against Russell. Very simple test and very decisive; these LHMM people are NOT following Russell, even tho they will tell you that they are follwing Russell. Thy are following Johnson and that is a mistake.
Steam: You help Jim your way and I will help him my way.
He made it and no doubt it was accepted.
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I don't agree that you are helping Jim - but you are welcome to your opinion.
The Lord does not automatically accept everyone who professes consecration. They have to look for the witness of the spirit, and sometimes this takes a while. I have known individuals who made a consecration but did not see the witness of the spirit in themselves for a couple of years.
I knew a woman once who professed consecration and studied with the brethren for 7 or 8 years until she was finally honest enough with herself to admit what everyone else could see (but didn't point out to her) - she did not have evidence of spirit-begettal. She confessed later that at the time of her consecration she was interested in one of the brothers, and she thought that her consecration might impress him. So, it was evident that she never made a proper consecration - she made a consecration hoping it would lead to marriage, and so that was what she was consecrated to.
Soon after this she left the class, although no one made her feel unwelcomed - she just realized that she didn't belong. We did not conclude that she must be Great Company, because it was evident that her consecration was never accepted, even though she understood much of the Truth.
People can make consecrations to many things, but only a proper consecration may be followed by spirit-begettal, and then only if a crown is available.
WV
This message has been edited by WildernessVoice from IP address 130.126.7.154 on Jul 21, 2008 1:35 PM
Don’t let this go to your head, but I enjoy the way you present your views. You’re never combative, condescending, or belligerent. If you ever make it to Colorado Springs, let me know, I would like to meet you someday. If you don’t mind hanging out with an evil JW, that is.
you said "Don't be too hard on Bro. Jim, and saddle him with a guilt trip on top of everything else. If he does not see that the door is open, then the most logical conclusion is that perhaps his consecration was not accepted. Maybe he never made a proper consecration. One whose mind is filled with doubts and questions about God's program is hardly in a state of mind to make a consecration which requires the exercise of faith."
Shame on you really... you folks that insist that those that don't agree with you must not be consecrated... who are you trying to fool? Jim is not filled with doubts... although you folks are continually trying to inject doubt into peoples minds. "Maybe he never made a proper consecration. maybe you should look in the mirror. Consecration is always in order... those were the wise words of the messenger you all continue to reject.
If it makes them feel better to think I don't know how to consecrate or that there is no crown for me, so be it. We can work it out man to man in the Kingdom.
jonalfred:
Shame on you really... you folks that insist that those that don't agree with you must not be consecrated... who are you trying to fool? Jim is not filled with doubts... although you folks are continually trying to inject doubt into peoples minds. "Maybe he never made a proper consecration. maybe you should look in the mirror. Consecration is always in order... those were the wise words of the messenger you all continue to reject.
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WV:
I didn’t say that Jim was not consecrated, but merely suggested that perhaps he had not made a "proper" consecration. By “a proper consecration” I mean a consecration to sacrifice, following in Jesus footsteps – the only consecration that could be accepted by God and followed up with begettal of the holy Spirit. As I mentioned before – people can consecrate themselves to all sorts of things, but only a proper consecration can lead to spirit begettal. Not knowing the particulars of Bro. Jim’s experience, I can only speak from a theoretical point of view, so please do not think that I am trying to evaluate Bro. Jim’s consecration – only Bro. Jim and the Lord can do that.
One can consecrate to clean and holy living, studying the Bible, etc., and these are good and proper goals, however this is not a consecration to sacrifice. If one thinks that the High Calling is closed, it is impossible for that one to make a consecration to sacrifice, following in the footsteps of the Lord.
For those who have doubts about whether or not the High Calling is over, then they should approach the Lord in all humility and ask that if it be His will, and if the High Calling is open, that he might help them to see this. If one makes up his mind that the High Calling is closed it might be an indication of a lack of humility, if he thinks that he knows enough to make that determination on his own, without the Lord’s help. Or, the problem could be a lack of faith.
If one does not believe the High Calling is still open, and his consecration therefore is only toward clean and holy living – a consecration to righteousness – there is nothing wrong with this, and in fact, this type of consecration is always in order. Man has no right to live sinfully. Those who consecrate to righteousness now (and go no further) will gain the benefits of right living during the present time – good health and long life will be their reward. And, in the Mediatorial Phase of the Kingdom, they will go up upon the Highway of Holiness very quickly no doubt.
Regan (Premier Login Regan1874) Forum Owner 207.118.47.26
mere opinions
July 22 2008, 10:06 AM
A couple of mere opinions if I may...
There is no "consecration to sacrifice." We consecrate to God.
Therefore logically, there will always be an opportunity for all to "consecrate" - even if and when there should come a time in the Plan of God when there would be no more call to "sacrifice."
Consecration is not merely always in order, it will be the requirement of all humanity for continued life.
Re: For those who have doubts about whether or not the High Calling is over, then they should approach the Lord in all humility and ask that if it be His will, and if the High Calling is open, that he might help them to see this.
Many have done this, approached God in humility and asked whether or not the High Calling is open or not - and have been led by the Lord to see rather that it is simply not open any longer. Others simply beg to differ, but it is all mere opinion unless it can be proven through the Bible.
And re: If one makes up his mind that the High Calling is closed it might be an indication of a lack of humility, if he thinks that he knows enough to make that determination on his own, without the Lord’s help. Or, the problem could be a lack of faith.
Some would say the opposite, that if in spite of much evidence to the contrary we should decide that the High Calling is open, then THAT would indicate a lack of humility.
My faith in God was strong. When I had seen enough shenanigans from those who claimed that they would be ruling in heaven, I asked the Lord humbly if the High Calling is open or not.
He led me to a servant of God, one who had great faith and humility - the only man who ever lived who defended every utterance of THAT SERVANT with as much eloquence as any of the faithful martyrs, one who tirelessly did combat against every error of the Society, the Dawn and the PBI...
the one man who prolifically, logically and Scripturally thoroughly defeated those errors, stood for Present Truth and proved that the High Calling is forever closed - P.S.L. Johnson, author of the Epiphany Volumes.
You are certainly welcome to your opinions, Bro. Regan. If you think PSL Johnson taught the Truth about the Church being complete, then you should stick with it. God will make manifest in due time to all what the Truth of these things is. When he does, there will be no disappointments.
It does seem to me - just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong - that both you and Bro. Jim have been influenced to this conclusion that the door is closed, in large measure because of the un-Christlike behaviour of a few. That is, you seem to judge the entire Truth Movement (those who think the high calling is still open) by the actions of a few, who by all accounts have not been good examples of the believers. Is this a fair assessment, or not?
Also, if you believe that the Church was complete in 1914, and that the Little Flock is all beyond the Vail now - then why hasn't the Kingdom been set up in the Earth? What are we waiting for?
Re: It does seem to me ...you... have been influenced to this conclusion that the door is closed, in large measure because of the un-Christlike behaviour of a few.
Influenced to seek further. Conclusions were arrived at only through deeper study.
Re: That is, you seem to judge the entire Truth Movement (those who think the high calling is still open) by the actions of a few, who by all accounts have not been good examples of the believers. Is this a fair assessment, or not?
I'm appreciative of your parenthetical qualifier, for indeed, "the entire Truth Movement" consists of those on both sides of this doctrinal fence. As for those who do run for the prize, I do not judge them.
As for a fair assessment, I tried to make a fair assessment of the information brought forth by brother Johnson. There I discovered the reasons behind the various acts and attitudes I observed, as he filled in all the gaps regarding the split from 1917 onward in a very satisfying and Scriptural manner. Thanks to that, I have a much more patient and understanding attitude toward the various groups and individuals.
And Re: Also, if you believe that the Church was complete in 1914, and that the Little Flock is all beyond the Vail now - then why hasn't the Kingdom been set up in the Earth? What are we waiting for?
To paraphrase Bro. Russell, He is setting up His Kingdom which is in opposition to all the powers of darkness. This is the real cause of the trouble and the shaking and the overturning of society.
While the glorified members of the Kingdom beyond the veil are doing a work in shaping the current of present events and preparing for the glorious reign, those on this side the veil have also an important work. It is their mission to gather together the elect and to seal them in the forehead (intellectually) with the knowledge of the truth (Rev. 7:3); to separate the wheat from the tares with the sickle of present truth; and to proclaim unto Zion this important message --"Thy God reigneth!" This work, too, is going rapidly forward, and all the faithful, sealed ones are in turn busily engaged in sealing others; and soon the great work will be accomplished--the elect all gathered and glorified. C.T. Russell C303
You believe it will be accomplished, while I simply believe it was accomplished. Now it is the battle of the Great Day of God Almighty, and now ALL the saints work on the other side of the veil. That there would be a time of controversy between the Truth groups over this issue is a logical obvious inference from all we know and have learned. The High Calling simply cannot continue forever, and with more and more people coming into the Truth, even buying the volumes at the local Target store, there obviously MUST be those who will consecrate yet not be eligible for the little flock.
Thanks for asking respectfully. You are always appreciated!
If one makes a consecration to spirit begettal after that opportunity has been taken away by the Lord.... well, hmmmmm.
Now, while I have no interest in trying to talk you out of what you're doing, nor am I as RR and others would say trying to steal your crown or throw water on your hopes... I contend that consecration is always in order as the Pastor stated... that the reward (and thus the way the consecration is accepted) is up to the Father, there is NO DIFFERENCE in consecration as given by a human being. You cannot offer yourself on the altar as a living human sacrifice for spiritual ends if that opportunity is closed. Pastor Russell coached all of the brethren as early as 1881 that the call was over and that although some would receive the opportunity to be replacements for those who would fall out DURING THE HARVEST, he intimated that none would actually know who was who except for the Lord Himself. He encouraged the brethren to "run as if" they were actually in the call while realizing that most never would be. This was over 100 years ago so just imagine where we are now.... yet the Pastor encouraged all who would come forward to continue to consecrate, which means OFFERING EVERYTHING THAT YOU ARE TO THE LORD...we have no business in telling him where we expect to come in the Kingdom.
Bible Students in general over the last few decades have developed this new theory that any who consecrate for anything less than this spiritual reward are not really consecrated. Bobal has told me repeatedly (as RR has) that not only can I not be consecrated... I AM NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN.
The TRUTH is however, that folks are supposed to simply consecrate to do the Father's will... Now while we may not agree as to what is currently the Father's will... lets not go to that place where we are assuming this or that person is less consecrated than ourselves.
Bro Jim is right... we settle this in the Kingdom.
Bro. Jon,
I do not want to offend you in any way because I respect you as a person, but I want you to know up front that I intend to speak very plainly about this subject.
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Jonalfred:
If one makes a consecration to spirit begettal after that opportunity has been taken away by the Lord.... well, hmmmmm.
Now, while I have no interest in trying to talk you out of what you're doing, nor am I as RR and others would say trying to steal your crown or throw water on your hopes...
I contend that consecration is always in order as the Pastor stated... that the reward (and thus the way the consecration is accepted) is up to the Father, there is NO DIFFERENCE in consecration as given by a human being. You cannot offer yourself on the altar as a living human sacrifice for spiritual ends if that opportunity is closed.
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WV:
I think it is important to make the distinction that a “full” consecration is not a consecration to spirit-begettal, it is a consecration to sacrifice. If that consecration is accepted, spirit-begettal follows.
One cannot consecrate to sacrifice unless the way of sacrifice is open that is true, but then again, if one consecrates and has no evidence of spirit-begettal, that does not indicate that the way of sacrifice is not open. If one person’s consecration was not accepted (as indicated by the absence of the witness of spirit-begettal), then does it follow that no one else’s consecration to sacrifice can be acceptable? This is not reasonable - God is not bound to accept every consecration made.
If the individual thinks that the high calling is over, and yet believes he still can make a full un-reserved consecration of himself, then we have to wonder - what he is consecrating to? The only consecration indicated in the scriptures is that mentioned by the Apostle Paul, which is a consecration to sacrifice:
“I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” (Rom. 12:1)
We present our bodies – our justified human life-rights – a sacrificial offering, which can be viewed as acceptable through the Merit of Christ’s sacrifice only. In this act we are giving up our future human life-rights for the opportunity to follow in Christ’s footsteps now, and be glorified with him if we are faithful unto the death of the flesh.
F.122
God has predetermined that all who will be of the New Creation must be sacrificers--of the "Royal Priesthood"; and they each must have something to offer to God, even as our High Priest who "offered up himself to God." (Heb. 7:27; 9:14) The under-priesthood must all offer up themselves to God, also; as the Apostle exhorts: "I beseech you, brethren [brethren, because justified and thus brought into fellowship with God], by the mercies of God [the forgiveness of sins already experienced], that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, and your reasonable service." (Rom. 12:1) Now, then, notice that since our bodies are not actually "holy," they must be made so reckonedly before they could be "acceptable unto God," could be counted "holy"; that is to say, we must be justified by faith in Christ before we would have anything holy and acceptable to lay upon God's altar; and it must be laid upon God's altar, sacrificed, and accepted of him at the hand of our great High Priest, before we can be counted as of his "Royal Priesthood."
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Jonalfred:
Pastor Russell coached all of the brethren as early as 1881 that the call was over and that although some would receive the opportunity to be replacements for those who would fall out DURING THE HARVEST, he intimated that none would actually know who was who except for the Lord Himself.
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WV:
Bro. Russell thought the door would be closed in 1881, and he continued to think this up until he wrote the second volume in 1889, where he indicates that the end of the High Calling (later in the third volume referred to as the "General Call") is not the closing of the door. Was there some particular scriptural revelation that brought this to his attention? No – but he saw that consecrations were still being made, and that these individuals gave evidence of spirit-begettal. As you said in another post – he let the visible teach the invisible. Although he had concluded from the parallels (a type) that the door closed in 1881, he could not deny the physical evidence that spirit-begettal continued.
I disagree with your statement that Bro. Russell said that we could not know whether or not we are running for the prize of the High Calling. The scriptures plainly tell us how we may know whether or not our consecration to sacrifice was accepted through the witness of the holy Spirit.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
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Jonalfred:
He encouraged the brethren to "run as if" they were actually in the call while realizing that most never would be. This was over 100 years ago so just imagine where we are now.... yet the Pastor encouraged all who would come forward to continue to consecrate, which means OFFERING EVERYTHING THAT YOU ARE TO THE LORD...we have no business in telling him where we expect to come in the Kingdom.
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WV:
I agree we have no business telling the Lord where we want to be in the Kingdom, and we would never be as presumptuous as to look for any blessing which the Lord did not clearly offer. The reason we have this hope is because our Lord offered it to us. We didn’t tell the Lord the prize we wanted to run for – HE TOLD US what prize we were to run for! There is no scriptural indication of any other than the one hope for the followers of Christ.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
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Jonalfred:
Bible Students in general over the last few decades have developed this new theory that any who consecrate for anything less than this spiritual reward are not really consecrated. Bobal has told me repeatedly (as RR has) that not only can I not be consecrated... I AM NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN.
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WV:
Bible Students got the idea that there is only one calling from the scriptures, and Bro. Russell’s explanation of them. “Ye are called in the one hope of your calling.” The purpose of justification now is to provide opportunity for one to go forward and make a full unreserved consecration, for the purpose of entering the way of sacrifice. If that step of consecration is taken, and if that consecration is accepted, it is followed by spirit-begettal. If one refuses to go forward and make that full unreserved consecration to sacrifice – for whatever reason – his justification lapses, and that one can have no relationship with the Father through the Son at the present time.
A Christian is one who follows in the footsteps of Jesus in the way of sacrifice. Those who do not do so are NOT Christians. Belief in the Ransom merely does not make one a Christian, for the world of mankind under the Mediator must believe in and accept the Ransom. Under the Mediator, the Kingdom will be Israelitish in nature – therefore mankind will not and can not become Christians. Today there are approximately 2.1 billion people who claim to be “Christians”, people who assent to one degree or another that “Christ died for us,” and they would be appalled if we suggested to them that they are not really Christians. Yet, the fact remains that the only ones who are True Christians are those who follow in Jesus’ footsteps of sacrifice.
Mat 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Thus our Lord indicates that self-denial and cross-bearing is the sacrifice that is required of his disciples, and none can be his disciples except those who follow in the same pathway as the Master trod.
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Jonalfred:
The TRUTH is however, that folks are supposed to simply consecrate to do the Father's will... Now while we may not agree as to what is currently the Father's will... lets not go to that place where we are assuming this or that person is less consecrated than ourselves.
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WV:
In order to consecrate to do the Father’s will, you have to first understand what His will is. I am not suggesting that you are not sincere in your beliefs, but I don’t see that they are correct either. Saul of Tarsus was sincere when he was persecuting the Church – but he was sincerely wrong. The Apostle Paul tells us what God’s will is at the present time.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, WILL of God.
I’m sure that if you talked to any of the millions of professed Christians in the world, they would all tell you that they want to do God’s will. But this desire alone does not make them Christians, nor does it give them any relationship with God at the present time.
Just another mere opinion, but I'm sure that if you talked to any of the millions of professed Christians in the world, they would all tell you that they are all going to heaven.
"A whole lot of people that think they're going to heaven - ain't goin' there!"
Bro. Leroy Hart
Tacoma Bible Students - Dawn class 1974
after working 16 hour days this is a bit too much to tackle... but I will say this much for now
wv: I disagree with your statement that Bro. Russell said that we could not know whether or not we are running for the prize of the High Calling. The scriptures plainly tell us how we may know whether or not our consecration to sacrifice was accepted through the witness of the holy Spirit.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
jon: Yes, this was true from 33 AD to 1878... but once the full number was in Bro Russell was making his commentary... You must get your understanding in line with God's messenger, or give up the idea that he was God's messenger. Everything he taught points to the harvest being the end of the age... and the call ceased in the beginning of the harvest. The field was white to harvest (with white robes of righteousness) and he reaped them and sorted them out into two classes. Some additional ones were called into the work WHILE IT WAS STILL DAY, but then the night came wherein NO MAN COULD WORK. That was the time of trouble's beginning which is all throughout his message.
I'm not sure it is fruitful for us to continue... as I said, you are free to believe as you are able... I was just pointing out that it is more than a bit dangerous to accuse a brother of having less faith than you or of being less consecrated becuase he doesn't agree with you. However, this brother does agree with the Pastor and can speak for himself.
WV: Your statement to Steam concerning Jim: "If he does not see that the door is open, then the most logical conclusion is that perhaps his consecration was not accepted."
I trust that your consecration was to do God's Will, whatever that may be, and that when you consecrated you had no inner hopes of gaining a crown because of your having consecrated. Surely, we who consecrate to do God's Will do so without any strings atttached. I consecrated before I ever understood that there was such a thing as the High Calling. I consecrated before I understood that there were any rewards for having consecrated. I consecrated because I had one goal in mind, and that was to do the Will of God whatever that might be, and that if I were privileged enough to understand the God that I was consecrating to, that this would be my ultimate joy! Those who consecrate to a "call" are on the wrong path in my my way of thinking.
Please consider what Pastor Russell had to say in regards to one of many questions asked of him. From the book "What Pastor Russell said" can be found the following:
CONSECRATION--Is It Always Followed by Begettal?
QUESTION (1911)--1--Can anyone be consecrated and not begotten of the Holy Spirit?
ANSWER.--"We believe that there is still room. That is to say that the full number of the elect has not yet been found, and tested, etc., and therefore our expectation would be that anyone making a full, thorough consecration of himself to the Lord would still be begotten of the Holy Spirit. But if the question be in the form in which it is here stated, "Could one be consecrated and not be begotten of the Holy Spirit?" we would say, "Yes, he could be consecrated so far as his part is concerned." Your consecration and my consecration, our part, is merely to present ourselves to God. It is for God then to say whether he accepts that consecration. During this time, this gospel age, the Scriptures speak of this as the acceptable day, the acceptable year, the acceptable time of the Lord, and we believe that he is ready and willing to accept all of those who come unto the Father through Christ, and that all such are accepted, and if they are accepted as members of the Body of Christ they will be begotten of the Holy Spirit. But as we have said before, so we say again, we believe that in the not distant future there will be people who will make a consecration, who will make a presentation of themselves to God, and for whom there will be no place left, because, as the parable shows, the wise virgin class will all have entered into the marriage and the door will be shut, and then there will be no one else enter in, because that class, when completed, will have no additions. Those who would then present themselves would not be begotten of the Holy Spirit. But this would not mean that God would be displeased with the offer of themselves; rather God would be very pleased to have them offer themselves--just as God was undoubtedly pleased with Abraham, with Isaac, with Jacob, and all the prophets who offered themselves freely to know and to do the divine will to the extent God was willing to receive them. They got a great blessing. So we should advocate, with every person with whom we have an influence, that the proper course, the proper duty for every human being, the reasonable service would be to present their bodies living sacrifices, holy, acceptable to God. HE WILL NOT SPURN THE SACRIFICE, but whether he will beget you to the Holy Spirit depends on whether your sacrifice is offered in time, before the door is shut, before the last member of the elect has been gathered in."
Based on Bro. Russell's thoughts here (and elsewhere given) about consecration, I would say that any judgement as to Jim's consecration being accepted is the Lord's to do and not for you, Steam, any others, as well as myself to make judgement upon. The best that we can do is to urge those who seek to do God's Will to follow thru without consideration as to rewards of any kind. Let us leave it in the hands of God to determine his use for us!
Bro. Harold:
Based on Bro. Russell's thoughts here (and elsewhere given) about consecration, I would say that any judgement as to Jim's consecration being accepted is the Lord's to do and not for you, Steam, any others, as well as myself to make judgement upon. The best that we can do is to urge those who seek to do God's Will to follow thru without consideration as to rewards of any kind. Let us leave it in the hands of God to determine his use for us!
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Yes, Bro. Harold - that is what I said - it is not for me to judge Bro. Jim's consecration:
"Not knowing the particulars of Bro. Jim’s experience, I can only speak from a theoretical point of view, so please do not think that I am trying to evaluate Bro. Jim’s consecration – only Bro. Jim and the Lord can do that."
WV: That's what I hoped was your position! Glad to learn of it. Also, regarding the thought that not consecrating to spirit begettal hopes does not mean that God rejects the consecration. As Pastor showed in the reference I provided...consecration is always in order and need not be a consecration with heavenly hopes in order to be acceptable to God. I believe that this is where Steam and some others go astray! I firmly believe that is most pleasing to God whenever one of His earthly children consecrate to do his will!
You double speak, go back over your own posts and see for yourself.
You defend the thoughts presented by PSL Johnson as being correct verus the thought of Pastor Russell on Reprints 5950-51, etc.
Now you try to appear as though you are following CTR and his thought about consecration.
You and Jonal made remarks early on in my visits to this forum that indicated what your consecration entailed.
Utmost is the thought of preserving your human life right in Christ's Kingdom.
That is the opposite of what the Pastor teaches; one must surrender that life right in consecration as one's ALL to God and never have claim on it again. You had no intention of this!
The following is from the book "What Pastor Russel Said" page 148:
CONSECRATION--Re Closing of Door.
QUESTION (1910)--2--Is the time open yet for anyone to consecrate for the high calling?
ANSWER.--My answer, dear friends, is, that the calling of God belongs to this age, and it is our understanding, as already published, that the calling time has ceased. Nobody is being called, because a sufficient number have already responded, is the thought that we have. That is, that a sufficient number had responded in 1881. You remember the evidence we set forth in the second and third volumes of Scripture Studies. Our thought is, the Lord represents that as one would go out, or would fail to be accounted worthy of a place as one of the priests, and take his position as one of the Levites, of the Great Company, that someone else would be allowed to take his place--as the Scripture suggests, "Take heed, let no man take thy crown." These consecrated ones who had crowns assigned to them, if they are not faithful, so they will receive the crown, will lose it, and somebody else who had no special calling, somebody who is hungering and thirsting, consecrated, and waiting, will be ready to receive it. So, then, our answer to the question in brief would be, IF YOU WANT TO CONSECRATE TO THE LORD, DO NOT STOP TO INQUIRE--if you have a RIGHT SPIRIT about the matter YOU WILL NOT STOP TO INQUIRE WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET; if you have the right spirit in the matter, you will want to give your heart to the Lord and give him all you have, and wish you had ten times as much as you have to give, irrespective of what you are to get. IF YOU ARE ONLY TO GET EARTHLY LIFE, YOU WILL WANT TO CONSECRATE YOURSELF. ANY OTHER SPIRIT WOULD BE A WRONG SPIRIT. So make your consecration and LEAVE IT TO THE LORD WHAT REWARD HE IS GOING TO GIVE YOU. Like a great man would do on the earth, much more so the great God will do on the spiritual plane. If you were dealing with a king and you did him a small service, you would not expect he would give you a penny; if he would give you anything he would be likely to give you a dollar, if he were a rich king. So with our heavenly Father, whenever he gives any rewards, you may be sure they are exceedingly abundant more than you could ever ask or think, according to the riches of his grace.
How true Pastor's words were when he gave these thoughts, and how much more so are they today! Encourage all who wish to consecrate to do so. Explain to them that they must be consecrating to do God's Will and not consecrating because they seek a "high" position in God's Divine Plan by doing so! Encourage them not to place self interest into their consecration!
How true Pastor's words were when he gave these thoughts, and how much more so are they today! Encourage all who wish to consecrate to do so. Explain to them that they must be consecrating to do God's Will and not consecrating because they seek a "high" position in God's Divine Plan by doing so! Encourage them not to place self interest into their consecration!
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Steam: Shame on you Harold, we are discussing your own consecration, NOT Pastro Russell's words. Why didn't you go back on the archives to produce your own remarks about your own consecration? Trying to hide something Harold?
We consecrated to do God's will unto death with the help of Jesus Christ, no mention or thought of a reward. We gave up our life right in Christ's Kingdom, did you? What does "full consecration" mean Harold?
The reason we have to continually emphasize the High Calling is because people like you are continually saying it is non-existent. What scriptures prove your claim Harold? You didn't volunteer your life right did you Harold? Now you are encouraging a brother who made a full consecration to give up all hope of any life by your own ignorance. If he quits, what happens to him in the resurrection? Ever think about the great damage you are doing in espousing your thoughts? By the Lord's grace, he may end up in the Great Multitude, but he sure as hell won't live in the flesh again. He gave it up in full consecration. And there is no certainty he will live in the Great Multitude because he quit; he looked back, he took his hand from the plow. Very "iffy" situation. What does Jesus think of people who quit and turn back?
Mr. Jones: I don't believe that I intended to bring MY CONSECRATION into the picture other than to present the terms and conditions under which it was made. The posting I made regarding consecration were examples of Bro. Russell's teaching of the matter. Let me re-post some of what he said:
"IF YOU WANT TO CONSECRATE TO THE LORD, DO NOT STOP TO INQUIRE--if you have a RIGHT SPIRIT about the matter YOU WILL NOT STOP TO INQUIRE WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET; if you have the right spirit in the matter, you will want to give your heart to the Lord and give him all you have, and wish you had ten times as much as you have to give, irrespective of what you are to get. IF YOU ARE ONLY TO GET EARTHLY LIFE, YOU WILL WANT TO CONSECRATE YOURSELF. ANY OTHER SPIRIT WOULD BE A WRONG SPIRIT. So make your consecration and LEAVE IT TO THE LORD WHAT REWARD HE IS GOING TO GIVE YOU."
Now Mr. Jones....does Pastor Russell in the above state that if we want to receive earthly life...that we should not or cannot consecrate? Does he state that if one consecrates to Him but does so not expecting Heavenly rewards, but rather an existence here on earth as our wonderful Creator originally intended, that such a consecration is in vain? I'm certain that you are able to read and understand Pastor's thoughts here!
"But as we have said before, so we say again, we believe that IN THE NOT DISTANT FUTURE THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL MAKE A CONSECRATION, WHO WILL MAKE A PRESENTATION OF THEMSELVES TO GOD, AND FOR WHOM THERE WILL BE NO PLACE LEFT, because, as the parable shows, the wise virgin class will all have entered into the marriage and the door will be shut, and then there will be no one else enter in, because that class, when completed, will have no additions. THOSE WHO WOULD THEN PRESENT THEMSELVES WOULD NOT BE BEGOTTEN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. But THIS WOULD NOT MEAN THAT GOD WOULD BE DISPLEASED OF THEMSELVES; rather GOD WOULD BE VERY PLEASED to have them offer themselves--just as God was undoubtedly pleased with Abraham, with Isaac, with Jacob, and all the prophets who offered themselves freely to know and to do the divine will to the extent God was willing to receive them. They got a great blessing. So WE ADVOCATE, WITH EVERY PERSON with whom we have an influence, that THE PROPER COURSE, THE PROPER DUTY FOR EVERY HUMAN BEING, the reasonable service would be TO PRESENT THEIR BODIES LIVING SACRIFICES, holy, acceptable to God. HE WILL NOT SPURN THE SACRIFICE, but WETHER HE WILL BEGET YOU TO THE HOLY SPIRIT DEPENDS ON WETHER YOUR SACRIFICE IS OFFERED IN TIME, BEFORE THE DOOR IS SHUT, BEFORE THE LAST MEMBER OF THE ELECT HAS BEEN GATHERED IN."
Surely Mr. Jones you are not saying that Pastor Russell never gave encouragement to consecrate BUT ONLY IF the opportunity to spirit begettal is available? Now you might argue that the above will apply in some yet to come time, however note that Bro. Russell said "that IN THE NOT DISTANT FUTURE THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL MAKE A CONSECRATION." NOT DISTANT FUTURE...like within 10 years...maybe 20...., not 90?? Please study the above and tell me that Pastor has said otherwise!
As to your statement: "Now you are encouraging a brother who made a full consecration to give up all hope of any life by your own ignorance.:
On this you are far from the truth! Show me where I said that this person was "giving up all hope of any life!"
You further said: "If he quits, what happens to him in the resurrection?" If he quits?... Quits what? I don't think he ever said anything about quitting..nor did I. Those are your words!
Your statement: "Ever think about the great damage you are doing in espousing your thoughts? By the Lord's grace, he may end up in the Great Multitude, but he sure as hell won't live in the flesh again."
Mr. Jones, he need not worry about what will happen in the resurrection because of his faith now!
Lastly, you said "He gave it up in full consecration. And there is no certainty he will live in the Great Multitude because he quit; he looked back, he took his hand from the plow."
He need not worry about being placed into the Great Company. One must first have spirit-begettal before any opportunity could avail to be placed into the Great Company. Since Spirit-begettal ceased some 90 years ago there can be no fear of going into the Great Company class. That class is no longer on earth.
Very "iffy" situation. What does Jesus think of people who quit and turn back? Probably something along the way he thinks of those who would distort the Truth I would suppose.
I have no interest in engaging with you in a "boxing match" as in the past. If you do not agree with what I believe...leave it alone. In turn whatever YOU believe will also be left where it lies. It will all iron out in due time.
You called the high Calling that you once believed ; "nonsense" that is where you quit in my opinion!
You have given up on the possibility that a crown is posible for you. You have quit!
You are no longer in the race for the High calling by your own admission. You said it, you quit!
If you believe that I owe you an apolopgy, say so and for what.
am learning how to live on earth now that I have given up this nonsense idea that the door is open. Exercise, eat right, and live a moral life. Laziness will not be tolerated, nor will gluttony. A person needs no more than 2000-2500 calories a day to live
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This is your posting Jim.
I would rather be in Heaven, but so would every person in "churchianity." Everybody wants to manage, nobody wants to be managed...human nature.
It will be quite humbling for those who think they are going to end up in Heaven to wake up here. Maybe that is what they need...humble pie. Many in the classes look around and point at all the faults in the churches and see no fault in themselves and say that if the door is closed then Jehovah is 'trifling" with them.
The chart shows the Gospel Age is over.
The Harvest was the beginning and end of the Age.
There are no more to harvest out of Babylon as Babylon is gone.
The Pastor said if we go on and find no increasing light, then we are not progressing. There has been no real increased light in many, many years, and classes are split and don't have much in common...in fellowship of beliefs.
The General Call ended in 1881, yet the Lord cannot complete the Church without replacements for 134 years? The Lord sees past and future and knows all things. He knows who would make it before they were born. What possible reason to keep begetting people that He knows will never make it? I don't buy it.
I am learning how to live on earth now that I have given up this nonsense idea that the door is open. Exercise, eat right, and live a moral life. Laziness will not be tolerated, nor will gluttony. A person needs no more than 2000-2500 calories a day to live.
r5950 does not say the Harvest continues for another 300 years. It said the Harvest continued when he wrote it. That means there were still spirit begotten in the church systems.
Should I end up in Heaven as a Crown winner, Great Company, or here on earth as a mere mortal human, or even in the Second Death, I leave it in the Lord's hands.
If the Door is closed, that means nobody we know is anointed with the Holy Spirit, and that would help explain why some who claim to be anointed are caustic and mean-spirited.
We'll see.
I will be telling my class that these are my feelings in the next week or so, and I would appreciate if those who gossiped about this the last time would keep their mouths shut for another 2 weeks. I know this is almost an impossible task for people with no spirit begetting.
Let me put it this way; I believe you were spirit begotten. If you were; then, anything I say is not as harsh as what will be said by the Lord.
I may get bit, I realize that but if any thing I say can help you to realize the deception you have fallen in to, and help bring you back into Present Truth, I'll go aong quietly. Remember I have been in Present Truth for a long time and I have seen a few people come and go I put you right up there with the best of them.
