Bro. James (no login) from IP address 75.59.205.83
Youthful Worthies—How Can We Know Who They Are.
"Question (1921)—How can we know who is a Youthful Worthy?— Answer: First we will answer with reference to those brethren who have consecrated since the Fall of 1914. Knowing from many reasons that spiritbegetting ceased by the Fall of 1914, we readily can know of all who have consecrated since that time that they could not be spirit-begotten; and that, therefore, their hopes lie in the direction of Youthful Worthiship. With respect to those of them who consecrated since the general Call ceased in 1881 (F 156, 157), we cannot now be sure, though each individual by the various witnesses of the Spirit may be able to learn his position. It would not, however, at all surprise us, if there should arise a Youthful Worthies’ Movement, separating them from others. If this should prove true, it would doubtless then become clear as to the Youthful Worthiship of all the unbegotten consecrated. ’21-78"
Note that Bro. Johnson does not say anything about individuals from 1878...only from 1881. If you believe the "present view," then this quote does not make sense. For those who believe he had two views, please post an article where he explains why he changes his mind and when.
2- Just before Vertical Line "10", the Dotted Line.
3- In the breaking space between "t" (GC) and "U" (Babylon).
4- After 1881 and before the Kingdom is set up.
5- That is where they should be, according to this board's info; I'm looking close but I can't see them but I do have poor vision. Maybe you can see them Caine?
Caine: I'll help get you started on your quest for information pertaining to the Youthful Worthies. Try examining the sixth volume of Studies in The Scriptures, pages 156, 157; Z '11, 181, pars. 5-10; Z '15, 269, pars. 11, 12; Question Book 151, 152.
A Start
September 1 2008 at 11:35 AM Bro. Harold (no login)
from IP address 98.122.142.160
Response to Interested in any thoughts on this....
Caine: I'll help get you started on your quest for information pertaining to the Youthful Worthies. Try examining the sixth volume of Studies in The Scriptures, pages 156, 157; Z '11, 181, pars. 5-10; Z '15, 269, pars. 11, 12; Question Book 151, 152.
Bro. Harold
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Steam: Volume , pages 156,157 I will make a sumation of what is said.
High Calling is closed, meaning the General Call is closed. Consecration is always in order. Many will yet be admitted to the High Calling.
Page 157- Any consecrating and performing a full sacrifice of themselves in the interest of the Lord's cause after the heavenly class is complete, will find that the Lord has plenty of blessings of some other kind still to give; and that all of his blessings are for such consecrators, self-sacrificers. Possibly they may be counted in with the Ancient Worthies who had the sacrificing disposition that is pleasing to God, prior to the beginning of the High Calling.
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Caine this is the basis of Johnson's claims, he grabbed it and expounded on it to fit his dreams. CTR said it was a possibility. I believe the other citations are based on this comment and resemble it very much. Johnson went far beyond what Russell said.
To my understanding, each of us could say God will treat consecrators and self-sacrificers with special rewards because of their goodness or righteousness but we would not have to put them into the group called Youthful Worthies. The Ancient Worthies were not a group, they were individuals, champions of Israel.
But J formed a group and then another group with out any scriptural support, he closed the Church in 1914, after CTR said the church had not been completed in 1914. He sent his people to gather this group without scriptural support. He claimed WW1 was the "dark night", wrong we have yet to reach the dark night when no man could work for the Lord.
Ancient Worthies and those who follow the same course
September 1 2008, 11:59 AM
WT 1911 reference and others I'm sure you are aware of:
“Thus this Gospel Age is called the "acceptable day (or time) of the Lord," because, during this Gospel Age God is willing to accept a predestinated number as joint-sacrificers with Jesus. But as soon as that predestinated number shall have been completed the acceptable time will immediately end. No more presentations will be accepted as sacrifices--the antitypical Day of Atonement will have ended. But suppose that some should present themselves after the close of the acceptable time; what would be their status and God's dealing with them?
Since God is unchangeable, we must assume that He would always be pleased to have His creatures devote their lives wholly and unreservedly to the doing of His will, as He was pleased with the faithfulness of the AncientWorthies to lay down their lives before a Covenant of sacrifice was in force. We may reason that as God has promised human perfection to those Ancient Worthies who laid down their lives, He would be willing similarly to reward any who might follow the same course after the completion of the Church--after the ending of the acceptable time of sacrifice…”
It’s obvious Bro. Russell was the Parousia Messenger and addressed items Parousia related. The Youthful Worthies we believe are an Epiphany class and had a 40 year call from 1914 – 1954 as the Epiphany writings specifically point out. It has been suggested that the Youthful Worthies are included with the Ancient Worthies under G on the Chart of the Ages – Messianic Age on plan z.
Ancient Worthies and those who follow the same course
September 1 2008 at 11:59 AM Bro. James (no login)
from IP address 75.59.205.83
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Steam: The Youthful Worthies are not following the same course the AW's trod. The AW's were individual champions of Israel; the Youthful Worthies are an organized group seeking favor with God thru believing what Johnson told them. Big difference!
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Response to Interested in any thoughts on this....
WT 1911 reference and others I'm sure you are aware of:
“Thus this Gospel Age is called the "acceptable day (or time) of the Lord," because, during this Gospel Age God is willing to accept a predestinated number as joint-sacrificers with Jesus. But as soon as that predestinated number shall have been completed the acceptable time will immediately end. No more presentations will be accepted as sacrifices--the antitypical Day of Atonement will have ended. But suppose that some should present themselves after the close of the acceptable time; what would be their status and God's dealing with them?
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Steam: Read Matthew 25:10, 11,12.
10- And while they went to buy the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11- Afterward came also the other virgins, saying Lord, Lord, open to us. 12- But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
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Since God is unchangeable, we must assume that He would always be pleased to have His creatures devote their lives wholly and unreservedly to the doing of His will, as He was pleased with the faithfulness of the Ancient Worthies to lay down their lives before a Covenant of sacrifice was in force. We may reason that as God has promised human perfection to those Ancient Worthies who laid down their lives,
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Steam: Does anyone know where to find this promise?
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He would be willing similarly to reward any who might follow the same course after the completion of the Church--after the ending of the acceptable time of sacrifice…”
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Steam: Does God set out this plan for the Youthful Worthies in the Bible?
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It’s obvious Bro. Russell was the Parousia Messenger and addressed items Parousia related. The Youthful Worthies we believe are an Epiphany class and had a 40 year call from 1914 – 1954 as the Epiphany writings specifically point out.
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Steam: Epiphany means bright shining or manifestation. Just how well did this happen between these years? The world doesn't realize that Jesus has returned; I would say failure to manifest this has been the result of the Epiphany movement. The bright shining is still in the future. Everyone has the right to believe as he wishes, but I for one do not believe what you are proposing.
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It has been suggested that the Youthful Worthies are included with the Ancient Worthies under G on the Chart of the Ages – Messianic Age on plan z.
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Steam: Might I ask who is making such a suggestion? Could his name be Johnson?
Plane "N" where "g" is located is for the friends of God, the AW's were all baptised into Moses and the Law Covenant; just which covenant are the YW's involved in?
How would one know that YW's are on Plane "N"?
How wold one know that YW's are alongside the nation of Israel in Christ's Kingdom? "Z" What scripture would indicate this? Where is scriptural proof of your beliefs?
Who made Johnson the Epiphany messenger? Where does the Bible say there would be an Epiphany messenger? These are serious questions which you should be able to answer quickly for your own spiritual welfare. Think!
WT. 1911
“We may reason that as God has promised human perfection to those Ancient Worthies who laid down their lives, He would be willing similarly to reward any who might follow the same course after the completion of the Church--after the ending of the acceptable time of sacrifice…”
This is the foundation Bro. Russell gave us here and other references that state the similar thought. Do you feel it is a possibility?
Steam wrote: “Caine this is the basis of Johnson's claims, he grabbed it and expounded on it to fit his dreams. CTR said it was a possibility. I believe the other citations are based on this comment and resemble it very much”.
It would be hard to imagine that God would not be willing to reward any that might follow the course of consecrating after the door is closed. However, it seems clear enough that in 1916 Pastor Russell realized that the work of completing the church was not complete in 1914 and continued on. It seems reasonable to believe that there were crowns available after 1914 and that the process of calling and selecting the church would continue on. And if some failed to secure a crown, then it would become available again for other consecrated followers of our Lord. This process might take many years before the all crowns were taken.
Pastor Russell: Studies in the Scriptures -- Vol. 6 – Author’s Forward: “In view of the fact that the “high calling” is closed, and that, therefore, the consecrating one could not be fully assured of an opportunity to attain to the praise of the new nature and its glory, honor, and immortality – what difference would this make in respect to the consecration? We answer that it should make no difference----“ (Written in 1904 or earlier)
However…..
Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 2 – Author’s forward, written October 1, 1916: “The author acknowledges that in this book he presents the thought that the Lord’s saints might expect to be with Him in glory at the ending of the Gentile Times.” (1914)
“Many, indeed, can express themselves as being thankful to the Lord that the calumniation of the Church’s hopes was not reached at the time we expected; and that we, as the Lord’s people, have further opportunities of perfecting holiness and being participators with our Master in the further presentation of His message to His people.”
“Our mistake evidently not in respect to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles; we drew false conclusion however, not authorized by the Work of the Lord. We saw in the Bible certain parallels between the Jewish Age and the Gospel Age. We should have noted that these parallels follow the nominal system to destruction in both cases, and do not indicate the time of the glorification of the New Creation.”
The narrative below adds additional weight to the belief that the door is still open and the work goes on. This was taken from an entry by Br R. E. Streeter in "The Herald of Christ's Kingdom" May 15, 1926. I think it is right on target and holds still holds true today.
No New Work Authorized
The evidence is wholly lacking that the Harvest has ended. Nor is there any evidence that the Lord has instituted another and different work. The Lord’s people are earnestly urged to use moderation in their reasoning upon this subject as upon all subjects—to use the spirit of a sound mind and to require positive evidence, a “thus said the Lord” for every doctrine or thought that we accept. Whatever others may do, whatever changes in the work others may presume to institute without proper authority, let us not be effected by it, nor be alarmed, but let us look carefully to the Lord and His Word for guidance in this matter as in every affair of life. “The meek will He guide in judgment and the meek will He teach His way.” The Great Head of the Church is still our only Teacher and faithful Guide. There are no reasons whatever why we should institute some work different from that of the past. The Message has not changed the slightest. It is still the old, old story of Jesus and His love, the Message of the risen Christ and of our hope of joint-heirship with Him in His glorious Kingdom, in the turning of the curse away from the earth, and the blessing of humanity. The great commission given by the Savior to His followers was that they should bear this Message onto the very end of the Age. We conclude, therefore, that it is pleasing and acceptable to God that we continue bearing testimony to the Truth in simplicity and in love, and allow the work of separation—the Harvest work—to go on under the providence and supervision of the Great Chief Reaper, fully conscious that He is able to have that work discontinued at any moment it may please Him.
As for the Harvest being a period of 40 years, or as to how long that period is a matter entirely proper for us to investigate and discuss. The question is: Is there anything in the Bible that will enable us to determine how long this work of harvesting in the end of the Age will last?
Discarding Former Calculations
As is well known, the view held by Brother Russell up to within a short time before his death and concurred in by many of the Lord’s people was that the Harvest was a period of forty years, beginning in 1874 and ending in 1914l and this thought was based upon what was supposed to be certain parallelisms between the Jewish and Gospel Ages. But it must be recognized today that the accumulation of developments and circumstanced through the years up to the present make manifest that some of our conclusions with regard to pictures and parallels were not sufficiently grounded, and we cannot do otherwise than discard some of these today. Those who were following carefully Brother Russell’s trend of thought just prior to his death will readily recall that he himself had begun to re-examine matters pertaining to the times and seasons, and particularly this feature involving the parallels that are related to the Harvest periods. He published a review of his latest findings in the September 1st issue of his journal in 1916. He there plainly called attention to what he designated “our mistake,” and said, “the parallelism between the Jewish Age and the Gospel Age could not include anything belonging to the new dispensation. The parallels affected merely the nominal Jewish house there and the nominal Christian house here.”
This message has been edited by cecaine from IP address 98.214.208.242 on Sep 12, 2008 4:11 PM
Pentecost to 1881 when the General Call ceased is over 1845 years.
1. 1845 divided by 144,000 (Little Flock) allows for 78 Little Flock members per year – Not that it happened that way.
2. General Call ceased in 1881 – It has been 127 years since this event took place. Meaning, if God accepted a 10-year-old consecrator, that person would be 137 years old or obviously have finished their course by now.
3. The 144,000 number wasn’t complete in 1881 due to the ultimate testing that took place – The reward was Divine Nature – The same nature as Jehovah – Death Proof! So special calls were sent out to those consecrating between the ages. Those “Non spirit begotten consecrated one”. These events took place until the fall of 1914.
(CE – Please don’t take the initial premise of the attached reference as if I’m accusing you of attacking - It’s the content that we should draw attention to.)
PT. 1969 Pages 66, 67
Numerous attacks have been made, both before and since Bro. Russell's death, especially in recent years, on God's great Plan of the Ages as set forth by Bro. Russell, particularly in its prophetic and chronological features. These attacks have come not only from those outside the Truth, but also, sad to say, from some who once were in full harmony with the Harvest Truth.
Some of such attacks have been made due to the attackers' not understanding God's purposes in respect to the long period since 1914, and to their evident unwillingness to wait on Him and His due time for the fulfilment of certain features of the antitypical vision, particularly those which Bro. Russell and other faithful watchers had been expecting, especially in the early part of the Parousia, to occur in the Fall of 1914. Despite these attacks, we firmly believe that in due time God's great Plan of the Ages as set forth by Bro. Russell will be fulfilled along the lines he indicated, though there have been delays for a considerable time beyond 1914 in certain fulfilments, while (as will be shown later in this treatise) other purposes of God are being accomplished in the Time of Trouble, or Epiphany period (see, e.g., Z 5456, pars. 2, 3; E Vol. 4, Chap. 1).
In Oct. 1916 Bro. Russell wrote that he had been preaching for over forty years, that the Times of the Gentiles chronologically would end in the Fall of 1914 (B, Foreword, pp. vi, vii; comp., e.g., Z 107, par. 2). The fact that the World War (Phase 1), the first part of the great Time of Trouble (Joel 3: 9-14; 1 Kg. 19: 11, 12; Dan. 12: 1; Matt. 24: 20, 21; 1 Thes. 5: 1-3; Rev. 14: 19, 20), broke out in the Fall of that very year is indeed remarkable, and by it God, as it were, put His stamp of approval on Bro. Russell's chronology as being the true Bible chronology. Its attackers cannot do away with this manifest evidence of God's approval upon him as a Truth teacher. Even schoolboys know that the greatest Time of Trouble ever to come upon the earth has been in evidence since 1914, and that there has been no real peace!...
Some who are very ready to emphasize what they call the failure of Bro. Russell's expectations in 1914 either overlook or conveniently ignore the fact that in 1904 (Z 3389, 3405, 3415), ten years before 1914, Bro. Russell pointed out that as a result of further study he had come to the conclusion that instead of the trouble ending in the Fall of 1914, as he had formerly held and taught, it would not begin until then; also, he showed from the Scriptures (e.g., 1 Kings 19: 11; see Berean Comments; Z 3414) that it would begin with a world-wide war, to be followed by world revolution and then by world anarchy. From these and many other expressions of Bro. Russell from then on until the Fall of 1914, it is evident that he was no longer expecting the Great Tribuation to end at the close of the Gentile Times in the Fall of 1914. Hence it is evident also that after 1904 he did not any longer expect the full establishment of the Kingdom on earth by the Fall of 1914. Furthermore, it should be stated that while before 1912 Bro. Russell did expect the deliverance of the Church in the Fall of 1914, in 1912 he began to doubt that such would be the case; however, apart from several guarded expressions to the Bethel family, he kept silent on the subject until late in 1913, when he indicated in print his doubts on the subject (Z 5329); in the May 1, 1914 Watch Tower he came out more plainly, stating of the prospect of the Church's glorification that year, "it does not look so" (Z 5449). Hence Bro. Russell's later writings show that at least by May 1914 he did not expect the deliverance of the Church in the Fall of that year.
Thinking soberly, he saw that the fulfilment of events in the prophetic program was moving along too slowly to expect all the things he had formerly expected for that time; and he very wisely cautioned the brethren accordingly. Some, however, did not follow his caution: in some cases they even accused him of losing his faith, etc. When the World War (Phase I) set in later on in that year, at the exact time of the ending of the Times of the Gentiles (B, Appendix, pp. 399, 400), many thought that now surely the deliverance of the Church, the setting up of the Kingdom and the beginning of the foretold blessing of all the families of the earth, would take place very shortly. However, these and other features of the antitypical vision tarried, and the brethren were tested more or less along the lines of disappointment and discouragement; those who did not follow the wise caution and example of Bro. Russell had a much more difficult time than those who did…
Br James -- I don’t take the initial premise of attached reference as being accused of attacking. Attacking is not my style or intention. But I am inclined to present whatever views I may have as genuinely as I possibly can. By so doing, it might be viewed as an attack since it does clash with the beliefs and views of others. I would hope it is not viewed that way, but I can see how it might be.
I would not be opposed to giving serious consideration to the belief that the present work is confined to a special class of post-Gospel Age/Harvest non-spirit begotten servants if the these questions could be answered: Are there any scriptural references that foreshadow this class? Or are there any scriptural references that directly refer to such a class? If this class does exist, then it must surely be a very import part of God’s great plan of restitution and restoration, considering the rather extended length of time devoted to it. Since the Church class and the Great Company class both are clearly identified in scripture and their positions and functions in God’s plan clearly stated, it would seem reasonable that another class such as the one we are considering would be clearly identified as well. I would definitely be willing and interested in learning more about the scriptural references that would point to this special class.
Thanks for your clarification. I too didn't want to give you the thought I was attacking and I'm glad you didn't see it that way.
Before shooting from the hip, I would like to give your other question some thought and respond without having to write a book and bore the readers with volumes of information. I'll try to bullet point some suggestions.
I appreciate your taking time to answer my questions. This definitely gives me food for thought. As you probably have gathered, I am a firm believer that the selecting and testing of the Church is still in process; I know, seems somewhat improbable after all this time. The Great Company class, composed of those who consecrated (Spiritual – seeking a crown but failed), will pass through the great tribulation, which to the best of my knowledge hasn’t happened yet, are those who failed to make their calling and election sure – but are of those seeking a crown – currently going on. So if all of the crowns were long gone, then that would mean that most of the Great Company class would probably be passed on by now with few remaining to experience the Great Tribulation. Revelation 7:15
Since the Great Company class must pass through the Great Tribulation, they must still be present and active at the time that happens, which is still future. So at the present time, I believe that the Elijah class and Elisha class have not parted company…still future. This would indicate that at least a few prospective members of the Church are still with us.
I had never given much thought to the possibility of another class of consecrated believers who were not of either the Elijah or Elisha class – consecrated to the Lord, but not spiritually, but after the manner of the Ancient Worthies. But this is an interesting thought, and I can see how there might be such a class in addition to the other two classes, because who knows what the Lord has planed.
Yes, friends and brothers in our dear Lord Jesus Christ --
C E Caine
This message has been edited by cecaine from IP address 98.214.208.242 on Sep 20, 2008 5:03 AM
We are both in the school of Christ. I'm sure you will agree, it doesn't pay for any to be too dogmatic. I'm leaning new things everyday and have much more to learn.
I appreciate your kind words and look forward to additional future discussions. I'm glad we can have common ground since we both support Bro. Russell as he was used of the Lord. More importantly, we recognize Jesus as our Savior.
To keep our subject matter down to earth, one of the best way to describe the “Worthies” is as Sr. Kelly stated it: “The Worthies are like book ends; They existed before the call to the High Calling took place and they seem to exist after the High Calling closed”. Bro. Russell seems to infer this in many of his writings. I’m sure you are aware of these references since they are used frequently on the forum.
We don’t find the expression “Ancient Worthies” in the Bible; however, we do accept this group as existing from our studies. The Old Testament calls them ancients - Is. 24:23 elders and old men Ps 107: 32; Joel 2: 28 and Heb 11: 38. We don’t find the expression “Youthful Worthies” in the Bible either; however, the same premise applies to this group just as it does for the “Ancient Worthies” as we see this scriptural evidence in the book of Joel.
Joel 2: 29 and 28: I guess the best way to understand these verses is to start with vs. 29 then examine vs. 28.
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
The servants seem to represent the Church; the handmaids seems to represent the Great Company…
28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
It would be logical to look at “your old men” as referring to the Ancient Worthies and “your young men” as referring to the Youthful Worthies…
There is more we can consider here; Israel, justified one and other consecrators that exist after the Youthful Worthies’ call ended represented by the sons and daughters. Regardless of what nationality we are, eventually it appears to be God’s will that we eventually all become "Israelites indeed".
I don't know if the scriptures agree with your thought that God didn't call Ancient Worthies nor treat them as a class.
Heb. 11: 8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Ex 3:4
And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
ANCIENT WORTHIES--Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect. Q15:2:: QUESTION (1913)--2--Heb. 12:23. "... and to the spirits of just men made perfect." To which class does Paul here refer?
ANSWER.--There might be two ways of viewing this matter, but we will only mention one, which is the correct view. We will not quarrel with one who may take a different view, for the Apostle does not explain what he meant, but we think he meant the Ancient Worthy class...
I agree with what you have stated here.
What I meant was: the AW's were not in a called out class such as the call of the YW's was done. But Thanks for your points from scripture.
Youthful Worthies - How Can We Know Who They Are
August 30 2008 at 1:12 PM Bro. James (no login)
from IP address 75.59.205.83
Youthful Worthies—How Can We Know Who They Are.
"Question (1921)—How can we know who is a Youthful Worthy?— Answer: First we will answer with reference to those brethren who have consecrated since the Fall of 1914. Knowing from many reasons that spiritbegetting ceased by the Fall of 1914,
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Steam: Not even one scripture to prove this statement. Pastor Russell was alive in these years from 1914 thru 1916; Did he say that spirit begettal had ceased, that consecrations made then were not accepted? NO! This is a most blatant lie!
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we readily can know of all who have consecrated since that time that they could not be spirit-begotten; and that, therefore, their hopes lie in the direction of Youthful Worthiship.
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Steam: On the basis of what scripture please?
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With respect to those of them who consecrated since the general Call ceased in 1881 (F 156, 157), we cannot now be sure,
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Steam: He takes it back to 1881; Pastor Russell certainly never mentioned that spirit begettel had ceased in those years. That the Youthful Worthies were now in vogue. This is PSL's dream not reality. No scriptures given.
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though each individual by the various witnesses of the Spirit may be able to learn his position. It would not, however, at all surprise us, if there should arise a Youthful Worthies’ Movement, separating them from others.
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Steam: Now I wonder how he ever got that thought?
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If this should prove true, it would doubtless then become clear as to the Youthful Worthiship of all the unbegotten consecrated. ’21-78"
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Steam: Unbegotten consecrated? There is no such animal! If you make your consecration to God and are not accepted then you are not consecrated!
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Note that Bro. Johnson does not say anything about individuals from 1878...only from 1881. If you believe the "present view," then this quote does not make sense. For those who believe he had two views, please post an article where he explains why he changes his mind and when.
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Steam: Think of how this claim would affect the Truth Movement, the claim of no spirit begettel since 1878 or 1881; That means Pastor Russell's work was for naught. He was a false prophet, trying to bring people out of Babylon to nothing but lies. How can you people ignore these claims and buy into this ? Bible Students want scriptural support for any such claim as Johnson has made. He does not give one scripture! Go back to Russell and leave off reading Johnson forever! He was a false brother!
Youthful Worthies - How Can We Know Who They Are
August 30 2008 at 1:12 PM Bro. James (no login)
from IP address 75.59.205.83
Youthful Worthies—How Can We Know Who They Are.
"Question (1921)—How can we know who is a Youthful Worthy?— Answer: First we will answer with reference to those brethren who have consecrated since the Fall of 1914. Knowing from many reasons that spiritbegetting ceased by the Fall of 1914, we readily can know of all who have consecrated since that time that they could not be spirit-begotten;
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Steam: James it is essential to prove this statement by scripture; will you please do that? How do you know that spirit-begetting ceased in 1914?
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James: and that, therefore, their hopes lie in the direction of Youthful Worthiship. With respect to those of them who consecrated since the general Call ceased in 1881 (F 156, 157), we cannot now be sure, though each individual by the various witnesses of the Spirit may be able to learn his position. It would not, however, at all surprise us, if there should arise a Youthful Worthies’ Movement, separating them from others. If this should prove true, it would doubtless then become clear as to the Youthful Worthiship of all the unbegotten consecrated. ’21-78"
Note that Bro. Johnson does not say anything about individuals from 1878...only from 1881. If you believe the "present view," then this quote does not make sense. For those who believe he had two views, please post an article where he explains why he changes his mind and when.
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Steam: Pastor Russell said nothing like this when he was alive. In fact the work which the Pastor was assigned to; was, bringing the replacement class into Present Truth. These are the very ones who Johnson puts limits on by saying; those from 1881 would be candidates for the Youthful Worthy class; Russell never stated this or anything like this. Johnson stated it after Russell died.
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From your earlier post:
Steam, you said: "These are serious questions which you should be able to answer quickly for your own spiritual welfare. Think!"
You have some very good questions. However, we need to establish a foundation of agreement to take this discussion to the next level
So with thinking in mind:
It helps me to establish a timeline:
Pentecost to 1881 when the General Call ceased is over 1845 years.
1. 1845 divided by 144,000 (Little Flock) allows for 78 Little Flock members per year – Not that it happened that way.
2. General Call ceased in 1881 – It has been 127 years since this event took place. Meaning, if God accepted a 10-year-old consecrator, that person would be 137 years old or obviously have finished their course by now.
Can we agree that this High Calling process may be getting a little long in the tooth?
Bro. James
September 15 2008 at 6:45 PM re: Youthful Worthies (no login)
from IP address 75.59.205.189
Response to Youthful Worthies
From your earlier post:
Steam, you said: "These are serious questions which you should be able to answer quickly for your own spiritual welfare. Think!"
You have some very good questions. However, we need to establish a foundation of agreement to take this discussion to the next level
So with thinking in mind:
It helps me to establish a timeline:
Pentecost to 1881 when the General Call ceased is over 1845 years.
1. 1845 divided by 144,000 (Little Flock) allows for 78 Little Flock members per year – Not that it happened that way.
2. General Call ceased in 1881 – It has been 127 years since this event took place. Meaning, if God accepted a 10-year-old consecrator, that person would be 137 years old or obviously have finished their course by now.
Can we agree that this High Calling process may be getting a little long in the tooth?
Just thinking...
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Steam: The General Call ceased in 1881, I agree! But what came after 1881? Replacements were brought into the Present Truth movement for any who lost their crowns. This is what the Pastor did, gather crown wearers or replacements for lost crowns. Pastor made no mention of these becoming Youthful Worthies until after completion of the Church its self. (Vol. 6, page 157, top. Therefore the question becomes; When was the Church completed? Johnson said 1914 but Russell said NO! The Church was not completed in 1914. (Foreword to Vol. 2; 1916. Reprints 5950-51) As to the Harvest and its length, I believe it is from 1878(Rev. 6:9-11) until 2022AD, because of Revelation 21:17 and the building of the wall. 144 years.
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Steam said: The General Call ceased in 1881, I agree! But what came after 1881? Replacements were brought into the Present Truth movement for any who lost their crowns. This is what the Pastor did, gather crown wearers or replacements for lost crowns. Pastor made no mention of these becoming Youthful Worthies until after completion of the Church its self. (Vol. 6, page 157, top. Therefore the question becomes; When was the Church completed? Johnson said 1914 but Russell said NO! The Church was not completed in 1914. (Foreword to Vol. 2; 1916. Reprints 5950-51) As to the Harvest and its length, I believe it is from 1878(Rev. 6:9-11) until 2022AD, because of Revelation 21:17 and the building of the wall. 144 years.
Steam,
You have some great references and it's obviously you put some time and study into your thought.
Brother Russell finished his course 92 years ago.
Can we agree on Prov. 4: 18?
But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
agree on the perfect day, it is in the future, right?
Altho CTR has been dead for 92 years; that has nothing to do with the end of the harvest and the completion of the Church. God set the times and limits, CTR tried to figure them out. I think he did very well.
Jesus was allotted 144 years to find his Bride, 1878 to 2022AD; the reaping of Babylon was only a part of it. Probably 1878 to 1918. (Rev. 21:17) The "set date" that the Pastor dd not find. I am the only one who believes this at the moment. So, I can't expect you to believe it either.
I believe Jehovah allowed the entire Gospel age to provide a Bride for his son. He also allowed a harvest time for It's completion.
Reprint 5497 C-2 Par. 4
“ the glory shall be revealed in us .” (Rom. 8:18.) We know that Christ could not come in the glory of his kingdom [church] until he has first gathered it from the world, and in harmony with this thought we read—” When He shall appear, we also shall appear with Him in glory.” (Col. 3:4.)
Bro. Russell didn’t fully understand events related to the Epiphany, however, he does generalize his thoughts. These are Epiphany events as scriptures indicate:
An event becomes more clearer after in has taken place.
Rom: 8 18: Strongs: 601 apokaluptw apokalupto ap-ok-al-oop’-to from 575 and 2572; TDNT-3:563,405; v AV-reveal 26; 26
1) to uncover. Col 3:4 Strong:“Appear” 5319 fanerow phaneroo fan-er-o’-o from 5318; TDNT-9:3,1244; v AV-make manifest”
Bro. Russell’s thought as expressed in C 228, 229: “While there are clear indications that some of the living members of the body will witness the gathering of the storm and share in some of the troubles it will bring, there is also evidence that none of these will pass entirely through it, nor even far into it . . . It is nevertheless clear, we think, that all the members of the body will be fully delivered, exalted to the glorious condition, before the severest features of the trouble come, after the body is complete and the door shut”; and in R 5497, col. 2, par. 4: “These will, we believe, be gathered ‘within the veil’ before the great storm breaks in its fury.”
It was “on the basis of Col. 3: 4” that Bro. Russell taught that the Little Flock would leave the world “during the Epiphany while admitting that in like manner some members of the body might remain to the very end of the time of trouble, and pass through it all, and yet thus escape all the trouble coming, it is nevertheless clear, we think, that all the members of the body will be fully delivered—exalted to he glorious condition—before the severest features of the trouble come—after the body is complete and the door shut.
Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. (WWI started overseas and worked it's way to America)
(Psa. 50:5), saying, "Gather my saints together unto me--those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
This gathering or harvesting time is in the lapping period of the two ages. As will be shown, it is a period of forty years, which both ends the Gospel age and introduces the Millennial age. (See Vol. I, pages 219-221… This is what Bro. Russell was allowed to understand.
The “plowman” is the great Time of Trouble, the first feature of which was World War I. The “reaper” consists of God’s servants from 1874 to 1914, who gathered the Lord’s saints into the Truth. The plowman overtaking the reaper reveals that the beginning of World War I, in the Fall of 1914, was the sign that the reaping had ended. The gleaning, however, continued until the Passover of 1916, when the sealing in the forehead — with enough Truth to come out of Babylon — of every Little Flock member was achieved (Rev. 7: 3; 18: 4).
Steam: This is an interesting comment and one I haven't heard before:" Jesus was allotted 144 years to find his Bride, 1878 to 2022AD; the reaping of Babylon was only a part of it. Probably 1878 to 1918. (Rev. 21:17) The "set date" that the Pastor dd not find. I am the only one who believes this at the moment. So, I can't expect you to believe it either."
Interesting comment, can you elaborate some additional thoughts on this line of thought?
One other thing - This is an interesting comment
September 17 2008 at 8:16 PM Bro. James (no login)
from IP address 75.59.205.189
Response to We can also
Steam: This is an interesting comment and one I haven't heard before:" Jesus was allotted 144 years to find his Bride, 1878 to 2022AD; the reaping of Babylon was only a part of it. Probably 1878 to 1918. (Rev. 21:17) The "set date" that the Pastor dd not find. I am the only one who believes this at the moment. So, I can't expect you to believe it either."
Interesting comment, can you elaborate some additional thoughts on this line of thought?
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Steam: The description of new Jerusalem is given in Revelation 21:10-23. It has been given to us by the angel in verse nine, Pastor Russell. In verse Twelve we learn that this city has a wall, great and high. In verse Fourteen we are told that the wall has 12 foundations, and the names of the 12 apostles are on them. In verse Fifteen, the angel (CTR) uses a measuring reed of gold, the Bible. He measures the city and the wall and the gates there of. Where did you learn of the 144,000, the body of Christ? CTR? That is where I learned of the 144,000. Anything I know about the Church I learned from him. Verse Sixteen tells us; the city lies four square.KJV But in the Diaglott the city lies quadrangular, a little more specific. Length, height, and breadth are equal; 12,000 furlongs. This city is in the shape of a pyramid, as is shown on the Chart of the Ages. It is not a cube! Now in verse Seventeen, the angel measures the wall. It is 144 cubits by the measure of man, the angel was a man, CTR. The KJV has no dimension noted. Just leaves us guessing but I think that is the correct way. 144 cubits is symbolic. Doesn't mean cubits at all. What does it mean? I say it means "years". To build the wall 144 years are allotted to Jesus. From the raising of the sleeping saints in the Spring of 1878 to Spring of 2022AD is the limit of building the wall and establishes a date for the completion of the Church. I am not asking anyone to believe this but it is what I believe. I might add that we now can see that a Time is 360 years as CTR taught, not 115 years for the Time of the End. 1799 plus 360 = 2159.
Thank You for asking.
We can also
September 17 2008 at 6:16 PM Bro. James (no login)
from IP address 75.59.205.189
Response to We can
Steam,
We can also agree to disagree - In a peaceful way
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Steam: Yes, I do hope for that.
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I believe Jehovah allowed the entire Gospel age to provide a Bride for his son. He also allowed a harvest time for It's completion.
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Steam: Sounds right to me.
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Reprint 5497 C-2 Par. 4
“ the glory shall be revealed in us .” (Rom. 8:18.) We know that Christ could not come in the glory of his kingdom [church] until he has first gathered it from the world, and in harmony with this thought we read—” When He shall appear, we also shall appear with Him in glory.” (Col. 3:4.)
Bro. Russell didn’t fully understand events related to the Epiphany, however, he does generalize his thoughts. These are Epiphany events as scriptures indicate:
An event becomes more clearer after in has taken place.
Rom: 8 18: Strongs: 601 apokaluptw apokalupto ap-ok-al-oop’-to from 575 and 2572; TDNT-3:563,405; v AV-reveal 26; 26
1) to uncover. Col 3:4 Strong:“Appear” 5319 fanerow phaneroo fan-er-o’-o from 5318; TDNT-9:3,1244; v AV-make manifest”
Bro. Russell’s thought as expressed in C 228, 229: “While there are clear indications that some of the living members of the body will witness the gathering of the storm and share in some of the troubles it will bring, there is also evidence that none of these will pass entirely through it, nor even far into it . . . It is nevertheless clear, we think, that all the members of the body will be fully delivered, exalted to the glorious condition, before the severest features of the trouble come, after the body is complete and the door shut”; and in R 5497, col. 2, par. 4: “These will, we believe, be gathered ‘within the veil’ before the great storm breaks in its fury.”
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Steam: Altho CTR was thinking of the Trouble as being about a year long, originally; I think this fits the true situation very well. The "Time of trouble" is 360 years; from 1874 (see Chart of Ages) to 2234AD, much longer than a year.(maybe cut short by several years)
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It was “on the basis of Col. 3: 4” that Bro. Russell taught that the Little Flock would leave the world “during the Epiphany while admitting that in like manner some members of the body might remain to the very end of the time of trouble, and pass through it all, and yet thus escape all the trouble coming, it is nevertheless clear, we think, that all the members of the body will be fully delivered—exalted to he glorious condition—before the severest features of the trouble come—after the body is complete and the door shut.
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Steam: I agree with this.
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Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. (WWI started overseas and worked it's way to America)
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Steam: The comments tie this in with the "fallen angels" being given full freedom after the 144,000 is completed. I don't believe the "fallen angels" have received their full freedom. I think this is shown in Rev. 19:17, 18. We have not reached that point in time. I understand that you do not agree on this point but I am explaining what I believe. The fallen angels have not been released from their restraints. It was the three evil spirits of the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet, that brought about WW1, NOT the fallen angels. They entangled the nations of Europe in treaties of alliance which made them co-defenders of other nations who might be attacked. Triple Entente and Triple Alliance.
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(Psa. 50:5), saying, "Gather my saints together unto me--those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
This gathering or harvesting time is in the lapping period of the two ages. As will be shown, it is a period of forty years, which both ends the Gospel age and introduces the Millennial age. (See Vol. I, pages 219-221… This is what Bro. Russell was allowed to understand.
The “plowman” is the great Time of Trouble, the first feature of which was World War I. The “reaper” consists of God’s servants from 1874 to 1914, who gathered the Lord’s saints into the Truth. The plowman overtaking the reaper reveals that the beginning of World War I, in the Fall of 1914, was the sign that the reaping had ended. The gleaning, however, continued until the Passover of 1916, when the sealing in the forehead — with enough Truth to come out of Babylon — of every Little Flock member was achieved (Rev. 7: 3; 18: 4).
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Steam: While I have read and studied these statements my conclusions are not the same. I can agree that the forty years was probably 1878 to 1918.
That the "plowman" is the trouble, but you can see this world is still in Satan's domain, the great changes have not plowed up the old habits and institutions and done away with them yet. I believe the fallen angels will do that. In effect, the plowman has not over taken the reaper. When that happens, the freedom to circulate Truth papers and make radio and TV programs will have ended. The reaper worked in Babylon; but the fall of Babylon has not developed yet. Meaning the complete destruction of Babylon.
Rev. 17:10-18 Europe and the USA are already Pagan Nations, so the demise of Babylon cannot be far off. The Truth movement will disappear in this destruction of Babylon because we are a part of her in the eyes of these people who destroy her. I may not be showing much of a difference here but I don't exactly agree with these statements.
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