Hello Regan,

Long time no speak. How have you been?

I am having a discussion with a fellow who keeps claiming that Russell proclaimed 1914 as the end of time. Now I am pretty certain that this was not the case but I was wondering if you could help me out here. Where could I find his actual comments about 1914 and what he expected to happen.

Thankyou, and take care.

Best regards,
Wrench

http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2008/06/seven-timesthe-times-of-gentiles-in.html

http://thestudiesinthescriptures.com/Pages/English/Eng%20V2/Eng%20Vol%202%20Ch%204.htm


Sherlock

Bless my eyes, can it be the one and only Wrench-in-the-works? How do you do, and how'd you find us here? I recall in my distant memory we used to post on, what was it, "holyscriptures.com"?

Basically those who attack C.T. Russell do so out of ignorance. Being the greatest Bible scholar of the century, he was not apt to suggest such non-biblical nonsense such as "the end of time", or as some allege, "the end of the world", nor even the "rapture of the church", etc. etc. at 1914 nor at any other date.

He did use the biblical terminology "the time of the end" - not the end of the world, but the closing of the dispensation or age or epoch - which would of course overlap into the next age, the Millennium.

As for the particulars of all this, Sherlock gave a good link to the Pastor's own words, and the horses mouth is the best source, not to call him a horse, of course. I prefer this one for a proper study of the topic. http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/volumes/index.asp#vol1

1914 was the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, a particular feature of God's plan - the end of their lease of power. He said that the nations of the world would all be enraged at this, and therefore would be engaged in a world war before October of that year, which of course they were...

Welcome to the forum, Wrench.

Yours in Truth,

Regan

Welcome Wrench...

I recall having some discussion with you some years back on another board... somewhere.

it is confusing because even some 'Bible Students Groups' are now using the term "end times" instead of its biblical term "time of the end", and while seeking to gain the attention of some hearers are forwarding the same message. The publish the "The End Times Bible Report", and regardless of what good things might be therein, the seed of error is already instantly planted and certain asumptions already made.

Hello jonalfred,

Yes, I think you were a member of Touchstone at one point, at least that's how I remember it anyway. You're welcome back any time.

touchstoneforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb2/yabb.pl

Take care,
Wrench

So sorry for ignoring to respond and to thankyou for the information. Rude of me.

I have been good. Still running the Touchstone Forum sight as always. For those who may be interested, it can be found at touchstoneforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb2/yabb.pl

Take care friend,
Wrench

Hello again Regan,

I was wondering if you could give a sufficiently detailed explanation of the difference between the JW view of Armageddon and what it is going to accomplish and the general Bible Student view of that same event. Not looking for a debate or anything, more of an information seeking venture.

Thankyou in advance,
Wrench

Hi Wrench,

I know your question was specifically for Regan, but I'd like to comment on this just to add to the discussion.

JW's believe that Armageddon will be fought personally by Jesus along with his angelic army and that every man, woman and child will be destroyed forever--JW's being the only survivors. Pastor Russell didn't teach this; but that Messiah's Kingdom raises mankind up--that the time of trouble brings mankind to its knees to receive the Lord.

JW's also do not recognize the nation of Israel as fulfillment of prophecy--or that the restoration of Israel plays any role whatever--they see themselves as "spiritual Israel" and all these prophecies regarding Israel are interpreted as being for JW's.

Pastor Russell wrote regarding Armageddon: "Still another thing intervenes. Although the Jews are gradually flowing into Palestine, gradually obtaining control of the land of Canaan, and although reports say that already nineteen millionaires are there, nevertheless, prophecy requires an evidently larger number of wealthy Hebrews to be there before the Armageddon crisis be reached. Indeed, we understand that "Jacob's trouble" in the Holy Land will come at the very close of Armageddon. Then Messiah's Kingdom will begin to be manifested. Thenceforth Israel in the Land of Promise will gradually rise from the ashes of the past to the grandeur of prophecy. Through its Divinely appointed princes, Messiah's Kingdom, all-powerful, but invisible, will begin to roll away the curse and to lift up mankind, and to give beauty for ashes."

So the differences are big ones. --rhonda

Thankyou Rhonda,

I appreciate the information. What is the thinking as far as how long Armageddon would last? And do the Bible Students already view Armageddon has having started or is it yet a future event?

Regards,
Wrench

And yes, Bible Students see that the time of trouble began in 1914 (with the First World War) and culminates with the nations gathering against Israel (which is happening now)--and the Lord will make his Presence and Kingship known, saving Israel.

Through Israel then, Jesus will set up the KOG for the blessing and raising up of all mankind. Pastor Russell wrote about Armageddon in great detail in Volume 4 of "Studies". --rhonda

I would say that most Bible Students today (not including the followers of PSL Johnson) believe that Armageddon and the "Great" Time of Trouble are yet future. They for the most part believe that the Harvest "goes grandly on" (R.5950), and Babylon has not yet fallen. Some of these don't believe the 7 last plagues have been poured out, and others for the most part believe that we are in the period of the 6th plague.

Then there are others, like myself, who recognize that Babylon has fallen, the plagues were poured out, Armageddon began with WWI, the Gospel Age Harvest is over, but the Church is not yet complete.

I just wanted to mention this because I don't think you will hear it from anyone else on this site, because the most prominent posters on this site believe the High Calling is over. This of course is not meant in any derogatory sense, but is just a statement of fact.


WV

This is a quick one, as I might have more later, but...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe that ONLY JW's will be saved from "Armageddon", which amounts to less than 1% of all who have ever lived...

Bible Students meanwhile have the WIDEST view of salvation outside of sheer universalism - many maintaining that perhaps 99.9% who ever lived shall be saved!

Only the Christadelphians have a narrower view of salvation than the JW's, and only due to their small size, for it is another "JUST US" view of God's "Justice."

More later.

Thankyou all, Regan, Rhanda, WV for your answers but I suppose I should clarify since I know that there are different ideas among the different Bible Student movements.

What I would like to know is what Brother Russell's view was. I know some Bible Students adhere strictly to all that he taught while others seem to vary, so I should hope to narrow the range of answers down to what it was that Russell was teaching about Armageddon and how it would transpire, basically the mechanics of it all. Or is that also a matter a controversy as to what we exactly taught?

I appreciate the input.

Regards,
Wrench

Pastor wrote a whole volume on Armageddon--giving all the particulars as well as all the scriptures.

Here's another sampling, but the best way to get Pastor's viewpoint is to read what he wrote, yes?

"In Ezekiel's prophecy (38:1-13) the Lord names the chief actors in the struggle in Palestine; but we may not be too positive in our identifications. Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomar, Togomar, Javan and Tarshish were names of children of Noah's son Japheth--supposed to be the original settlers of Europe. Sheba and Dedan were descendants of Noah's son Ham--supposed to be the original settlers of northern Africa. Abraham and his posterity (Israel) were descendants of Noah's son Shem, and are supposed to have settled Armenia--Western Asia. (See Gen. 10:2-7.) This would seem to indicate in a general way that the attack will come from Europe--the "north quarters"--with allied mixed peoples.

The overwhelming destruction of these enemies of Israel (bringing the end of the time of trouble and the time for the establishment of God's Kingdom) is graphically described by the Prophet Ezekiel. (38:18 to 39:20) It can be compared only to the terrible overthrow of Pharaoh and his hosts, when essaying to repossess themselves of Israel, whom God was delivering. In this particular also Israel's deliverance is to be "according to [like] the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt"--"marvelous things." Micah 7:15

After describing that the coming of this army from the north quarters against Israel (regathered to Palestine "in the latter day," "having much goods" and "dwelling peaceably") will be suddenly, and "as a cloud to cover the land" (Ezek. 38:1-17), the message is, "Thus saith the Lord God, Art thou he of whom I have spoken in olden time by my servants, the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years, that I would bring thee against them?" The Lord then declares his purposed destruction of the wicked host; and the description seems to indicate that it will be accomplished by an outbreak of jealousy, revolution

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and anarchy amongst the various elements composing the great mixed army: a revolution and strife which will involve whatever may still remain of the home governments of the various peoples, and complete the universal insurrection and anarchy--the great earthquake of Revelation 16:18-21

The testimony of all the prophets is to the effect that the power of God will be so marvelously manifested in Israel's deliverance, by his fighting for them (incidentally for all), with weapons which no human power can control--including pestilence and various calamities--poured upon the wicked (Israel's enemies and God's opponents) until speedily all the world will know that the Lord has accepted Israel again to his favor, and become their King, as in olden times; and soon they as well as Israel will learn to appreciate God's Kingdom, which shall speedily become the desire of all nations.

The Prophet Ezekiel (39:21-29), as the Lord's mouthpiece tells of the glorious outcome of this victory, and the results to Israel and to all the world, saying:

"And I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgments that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. And the house of Israel shall acknowledge that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward. And the nations shall know that for their iniquity did the house of Israel go into exile: because they trespassed against me [in rejecting Christ--Rom. 9:29-33]: therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies [for all the centuries of the Christian dispensation; and] so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness, and according to their transgressions, have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

"Therefore [now that this punishment is completed], thus saith the Lord God, Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel [living and dead, the "times of restitution" having

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come--Acts 3:19-21], and will be jealous for my holy name; after that they have [thus] borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the Gentiles, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be exiled among the nations, but gather them now unto their own land, and leave none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them; for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God." "So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the sunrising. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the spirit of the Lord [throughout the Gospel age--at the hands of Spiritual Israel] shall lift up a standard against him. And the Deliverer shall come to Zion [the Church, "the body of Christ"] and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord." Isa. 59:19,20. Compare Rom. 11:25-32.

"The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him." But "who can stand before his indignation, and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger?...He will make an utter end [of iniquity]: oppression shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:7,6,9

Thus by the battle of the great day of God Almighty the whole world will be prepared for the new day and its great work of restitution. Though the waking hour be one of clouds and thick darkness, thanks be to God for his blessed assurance that the work of destruction will be "a short work," (Matt. 24:22), and that immediately after it the glorious Sun of Righteousness will begin to shine forth. "The earth [the present old social structure] shall [thus]... be removed like a cottage" (Isa. 24:19,20), to clear the way for the new building of God, the new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Pet. 3:13; Isa. 65:17

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nt

Because of the twist the JW-view puts on things we all can sometimes get a wrong idea... we must remember that Armageddon is a feature of the time of trouble and NOBODY is lost in Armageddon unless you were a spirit begotten one who crossed that line and trampled the Son of God underfoot... Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10: 26. None of the general human family CAN be lost in Armaqeddon... it stands as part of the learning process Jehovah has devised so that Mankind might learn what is the exceeding sinfulness of sin.

It is the great trial in the "little season" at the Millennium's end that will take away eternally those wicked ones who have resisted reformation in ANY degree. Bro Russell once thought this would be a relatively small number, but I think his most mature thought was that it would probably be more than we might expect... I guess it doesn't matter and time will tell, but there are lots of folks that have come along since his time that appear to have absolutely no conscience.

just my thought...

thanks

jonalfred

Hello jon,

So, if I am reading things correctly, Armageddon is figured to have started in 1914 and is continuing? Or is it future and will be a time that will cause the world to wake up so to speak? Is it synonmous with the great tribulation or is it merely connected? Maybe you could give me a timeline so I could understand this better.

Regards,
Wrench

Pastor Russell viewed the "forces" of Armageddon as ideological, right vs. left, captital vs. labor. He expected that the armies would be led on the right by captains of industry and on the left by labor unions, and underneath those leaders would be all manner of people, clamoring for rights real and imagined.

"Anarchists, Socialists, and hot-headed radicals of every school of reason and of unreason, will be at the forefront of the battle. "

He expected that there would be a brief flirtation with socialism, and then anarchy would follow when socialism fails. We may be seeing that now. As to what extent the anarchy must reach is up to interpretation. It simply means that every person is a law unto themselves, and I think we may be seeing that already.

How that view was changed into literal fire and brimstone falling upon all except for those in the Kingdom Halls, is for another post. I hope you'll read the following from Pastor Russell's sermons and see how his view is by far the more reasonable, especially when he says, "We urge no one to accept our interpretation, nor shall we think unkindly of those who refuse it."

Enjoy!

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Sermon Book / SM232 - Forces Mustering For Armageddon

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SM232 FORCES MUSTERING FOR ARMAGEDDON

"For the great Day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"#Re 6:17.

God seems to have given the Book of Revelation with the intent of covering up great and important truths, not only because these were not due to be understood, but because He designs to keep certain features of His Plan from the world. Being a book of symbols, the Revelation will not be understood by the world in general; but the Bible assures that when the due time for revealment comes, the wise amongst His people, "The wise virgins," shall understand.#Da 12:10; #Mt 25:1-13.

The Prophet Daniel, who tells us that the Time of the End is the time for those wise toward God to understand His great Plan, gives two particular signs by which this time will be especially marked: First, "Many shall run to and fro"; second, "knowledge shall be increased." (#Da 12:4.)

Today we see this prophecy fulfilled. All over the world the people are running to and fro as never before; and all over the world are opportunities for knowledge such as have never before been known. The remarkable fulfilment of this prophecy characterizes our day as the Time of the End, in which this Gospel Age is to be concluded and the Messianic Age to be ushered inthe time when Gods people will understand and prepare for their change.

In the Scriptures God has seen fit to associate the name of Israels famous battlefield with the great controversy between Truth and Error, Right and Wrong, with which the change of dispensation will take place.

While the phrase, "Battle of Armageddon," is heard on all sides and is applied in many ways, nevertheless Christians realize that in the Bible this phrase is used in a

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spiritual sense. Therefore if the present is an opportune time to consider this Battle of the great Day of God Almighty, surely it is the proper time to view it from its true religious standpoint.

Before we proceed to set forth our understanding of the symbolic language of the Revelation, we wish to state most emphatically that we are saying nothing whatever against godly Christians at any time or in any place, in any church or out of any church. We realize that the Word of God conveys a terrible arraignment of some of the great systems of our daysome that we long have reverenced, that we have esteemed as containing many of Gods people. We have nothing to say against godly individuals, but what we have to say in the interpretation of Scripture is in respect to these systems.

AGENCIES MUSTERING THE HOSTS

Coming to the interpretation of the symbols of #Re 16:13-16, we find that the Scriptures mention three agencies connected with the gathering of the hosts to this great battle. We read that three impure spirits, teachings, will go forth from the mouths of the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet, and that these three will be in accord. These three doctrines, symbolically represented by frogs, are to have a mighty influence throughout the civilized earth; they are to gather the kings and their armies to the great Battle of Armageddon.

The ecclesiastical kings and princes, with their retinues of clergy and faithful adherents, will be gathered in solid phalanxProtestants and Catholics. The kings and captains of industry, and as many as can be influenced by them, will be gathered to the same side. The political kings and princes, with all their henchmen and retainers, will follow in line on the same side. The financial kings and merchant princes, and all whom they can influence by the most gigantic power ever yet exercised in the world, will join the same side, according to this

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prophecy. They do not realize, however, that they are coming to Armageddon.

These "doctrines of demons," represented by the frogs, will lead many noble souls to assume an attitude quite contrary to their preference. For a time the wheels of liberty and progress will be turned backward, and medieval restraints will be considered necessary for self-preservationfor the maintenance of the present order of things and for the prevention of the new order which God has decreed. Even those who may be Gods people do not stop to consider whether it is His will that things should continue as they have been for six thousand years.

In giving this interpretation, it is necessary for us to indicate what is symbolized by the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet. Bible students of nearly all denominations agree with us that the Dragon of Revelation represents the purely Civil Power. Protestant interpreters generally agree with us that the "Beast like a leopard" (#Re 13:2) represents the Papacy. But fewer still, we fear, will be ready to support our view that Protestantism is the "Image of the Beast" (#Re 13:15), elsewhere styled "the False Prophet."Rev. 16:13.

"UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS"

We urge no one to accept our interpretation, nor shall we think unkindly of those who refuse it. We will neither slander or otherwise injure them, nor threaten them with eternal torture. They have the same right to their views that we have, and the same right to make them known to others. For our part we shall be very glad to consider anything which opponents may set forth as their interpretations of this Scripture.

The symbolisms of Scripture, rightly understood, are always forceful. When the Holy Spirit used a frog symbolically to represent certain doctrines or teachings, we may be sure that the true application will fit well. A frog is a small creature, yet it puffs itself up until it almost

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bursts in its efforts to be somebody; it has a wise look, even though it does not know much; and whenever it utters a sound it croaks. The three most prominent characteristics of a frog, then, are pomposity, an air of superior wisdom and a continual croaking.

Applying these symbols, we learn that an evil spirit, influence, teaching, will come from the federated Protestant churches, from the Church of Rome and from the civil authorities, and in full agreement. The spirit of all will be boastful, an air of superior wisdom and knowledge will be proudly assumedall will croak in harmony.

All will predict dire results to follow, involving the interests of both the present and the future life, if their counsel be not heeded. However conflicting the creeds, the differences will be ignored in the general proposition that nothing ancient must be investigated or repudiated, but that all things must remain as they are.

The Divine authority of the Church, and the Divine right of kings, aside from the Church, will not be permitted to conflict. Any persons or teachings in conflict with these boastful and unscriptural claims will be branded as everything vile, at the mouths of these frog-like spirits, speaking from pulpits and platforms and through the press. The nobler sentiments of some will be strangled by the philosophy of the same evil spirit which spoke through Caiaphas, the high priest, respecting our Lord Jesus. As Caiaphas declared it expedient to commit a crime in violation of justice, both human and Divine, in order to be rid of Jesus and His teachings, so this frog spirit will approve of every violation of principle necessary to their self-protection.

The croaking of these frog spirits of doctrine will gather the kings and princesfinancial, political, religious and industrialinto one great army. The spirit of fear, inspired by the croakings, will scourge the passions of otherwise good and reasonable men to fury, desperation.

In their blind adherence to these evil spirits, evil

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doctrines, they will be ready to sacrifice life itself on the altar of what they mistakenly suppose is righteousness.

As we understand the Scriptures, for a brief time these combined forces of Armageddon will triumph. Free speech, free mails, and other liberties which have come to be the very breath of the masses of our day will be ruthlessly shut off under the plea of necessity, the glory of God, the commands of the Church, etc. All will seem serene until the great social explosion takes place, described in Scripture as "a great earthquake."

In symbolic language, an earthquake signifies social revolution. The declaration of the Revelator is that it will be "such as was not since men were upon the earth."

Our Lord Jesus and the Prophet Daniel described it as "a Time of Trouble such as was not since there was a nation." #Mt 24:21; #Da 12:1; #Re 16:18,19.

THE OPPOSING FORCES AT ARMAGEDDON

The false, froglike teachings will gather together into one host the great, the rich, the wise, the learned and the kings of the earth. At this juncture Divine Power will step forward and marshal the hosts to Armageddonto the Mount of Destruction. The very thing which they sought to avert by federation will be the very thing which they will hasten. Other Scriptures tell us that God will be represented by the great Messiah, and that He will be on the side of the masses. Thus we read, "At that time shall Michael [the God-like OneMessiah] stand up"assume authority. He will take possession of His Kingdom in a manner little expected by many of those who erroneously have been claiming that they were His Kingdom, and authorized by Him to reign in His stead.

The Scriptures declare, "His servants ye are unto whom ye render service." Some may be rendering service to Satan and error while claiming to be serving God and righteousness; and some of these may be serving ignorantly, as did Saul of Tarsus, who "verily thought that

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he did God service" in persecuting the Church. The same principle holds true reversely. As no earthly king holds himself responsible for the moral character of each soldier who fights in his battles, so the Lord does not vouch for the moral character of all who fight on His side of any question.

The same principle will apply in the approaching Battle of Armageddon. Gods side of that battle will be the peoples side; and that very nondescript host, the people, will be pitted at the beginning of the battle. Anarchists, Socialists, and hot-headed radicals of every school of reason and of unreason, will be at the forefront of the battle.

The majority of the poor and of the middle class prefer peace at almost any price. The masses have no sympathy with anarchy; for they realize truly that the worst form of government is better than none.

A comparatively small number, Gods consecrated people, will at heart be longing for Messiahs Kingdom.

These will wait patiently for the Lords time; they will be of good courage, knowing the outcome delineated in the "more sure word of prophecy," to which they have done well to "take heed, as unto a light shining in a dark place, until the Day dawn."#2Pe 1:19.

Conscious of their own weakness as compared to the kings and princes, financial, religious and political, who will then hold sway, the masses will be restless. Through the ballot and the peaceful readjustment of earths affairs they will seek for the elimination of evil, for the placing of monopolies, utilities and the supplies of nature in the hands of the people for the public good. The crisis will be reached when the hitherto upholders of law shall become violators of that law and resisters of the will of the majority as expressed by the ballot. Fear for the future will lead the well-meaning masses to desperation; and anarchy will result when Socialism fails. This is the extremity toward which multitudes are being driven by the force of circumstances propelled by selfishness.

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WHY ARMAGEDDON IS NECESSARY

Horrible indeed would be the outlook for the future did we not have the infallible Word of God assuring us of a glorious outcome. Divine Wisdom has withheld until our day the great knowledge and skill which is breeding both millionaires and discontents. Had God lifted the veil a thousand years ago, the world would then have lined up for its Armageddon. But that date would have been too soon for the Divine Purpose; for God has His own times and seasons, and has appointed the Seventh Thousand-Year Day of the worlds history for the Reign of Christ. Therefore in kindness God veiled our eyes until the time when the gathering to Armageddon would immediately precede the inauguration of Messiahs Kingdom#Re 11:17,18.

St. Paul, writing prophetically of this time, declared that it would be one of trial and testing to many professed Christians, for the reason that they received not the Truth in the love of it. (#2Th 2:10,11.) They preferred their own erroneous theories, the Apostle explains, and therefore God will give them over to a strong delusion, permitting them to believe the lie which they preferred and to suffer for missing the Truth which they did not love. Thus they will be in the condemned host, "fighting against God."

Sad to say, we Christians have labored under a thorough delusion respecting Gods Plan. We have claimed that Christ set up His Church in Kingdom power and that the Church has been reigning on the earth as His representative.

On the strength of this delusion, Jews and so-called heretics have been persecuted to death as opponents to Christs Kingdom. Meantime we thoughtlessly prayed, "Thy Kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth, as in Heaven." We knew that the Redeemer had said that He would come again to make us His Bride and Joint-heirs; but we ignored the Scriptures. We were drunk, as the Scriptures symbolically say; all nations were drunk

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with the false doctrine. (#Re 17:2.) It is this false doctrine which will constitute the frog spirit that soon will croak, preparatory to Armageddon.

For the past forty years the forces have been mustering for the conflict. As the belligerent parties have crossed each others paths, incidental skirmishes have taken placestrikes, lockouts, riots, etc. Court and army scandals in Europe, trust and court scandals in America, have shaken public confidence. Dynamite plots, charged by turn on employees and employers, have tended to make each distrustful of the other. Bitter and angry feelings are more and more manifest.

THE WAR CLOUDS SILVER LINING

According to Scripture the great battle must follow the occurrence of two events; the transformation of the Image of the Beast into a living force, and the return of many wealthy Jews to Palestine. The Protestant Federation realizes the futility of its organization unless it receive vitalizationunless its clergy be recognized as possessing apostolic ordination and authority to teach.

This the prophecy indicates will come from the two-horned Beastsymbol, we believe, of the Church of England.

High-handed activities of both Protestantism and Catholicism, operating in conjunction for the suppression of human liberties, await the vivifying of this Image.

At the very close of Armageddon will come "Jacobs trouble" in the Holy Land. Then Messiahs Kingdom will begin to be manifested. Thenceforth in the Land of Promise Israel will gradually rise from the ashes of the past to the grandeur of prophecy. Through its Divinely appointed princes, the Ancient Worthies (Heb. 11; #Ps 45:16), the all-powerful, but invisible Kingdom of Messiah will begin to roll away the curse of death and to uplift mankind. Then will be fulfilled the Promise "in thy Seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

Thankyou again Regan. Truly appreciated. So it appears that what we basically believe to be accomplshed by Armageddon is what Russell believed was to happen at the end of the millennium. is that right? Armageddon then would have been a long period of time ending in the time of trouble for Israel. Is that right?

Also, is it right after the time of trouble for Israel that you would expect the earth to be cleansed from wickedness or exactly what would be expected?

Regards,
Wrench

He expected these events to occur at the front end of the Millennial age and I agree.

Here are some of my thoughts on Ezekiel 38, which encapsulates "Jacob's Trouble" which just precedes the blessing phase of the "Times of Restitution" we all pray for. It is just an opinion, and is being updated as events unfold... http://www.octaman.com/comments/ezek38.html