Greetings,

Since Rev.020:5 is spurious when exactly is the second resurrection?

Regards

The last phrase of the verse is legitimate... "This is the first resurrection."

The former part, "But the rest of the dead lived not again, until the thousand years were finished." This is the spurious part.

We have long stated that this statement is true in one respect... that those of the "earthly resurrection" do not truly live again until the millennium is past, for their final test for life comes in the "little season" (of verse 3).

We don't see where this verse speaks regardless, as to the time of the general resurrection. We expect it to begin with the raising of the Ancient Worthies as listed in Hebrews 11 (in part) where they are promised "something better," i.e., a better resurrection (Heb 11:35). Those in the first resurrection receive something even better; the "some better thing" of vs. 40.

These Ancients should be raised from the dead in the very latter part of the time of trouble which is long underway and hopefully nearing it's end. The general world will follow in its own due course as Paul noted, "every man in his own order"...

Hope this helps a little.

jonalfred

Thank you for your response.

You wrote:
These Ancients should be raised from the dead in the very latter part of the time of trouble

I thought that the time of trouble was in the last days.
If not exactly when is time of trouble.

I thank you in advance.

Also, I have read in other boards that Bible Students believe that the 1000 years has already begun.

Is this true?

Your two questions are kind of tied together... I will try to clarify.

Yes, the Time of Trouble is in the last days... better rendering: "Last one of the days"... Sometimes called the last day; IN THAT DAY... when you see that phrase in the OT, it refers to the last day. Remembering that a "day with the Lord is a thousand years..." (2 Peter 3:8)... in connection with the day of judgment that is mentioned in vs. 7, thus the day being discussed as 1,000 years; the first part is the time of trouble. 40 years of trouble on the Church as its final membership is decided... followed by the great time of trouble or tribulation mentioned by Daniel the Prophet in Daniel 12:1 and reiterated by Jesus in Matthew 24:21. This 1000 year day is the Millennium often spoken of... and the one that the Revelator speaks of as being the 1000 year reign of Christ and the Church (Rev 20:4). It is for the judgment of the entire human race, as Jesus stated in John 5: 28-29... "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unot the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment." This is the time of the second coming also.


Rhody: "Also, I have read in other boards that Bible Students believe that the 1000 years has already begun."

The study of Chronology and Prophecy will lead us down the correct path in determniing this question, so that we may be sure that we are walking in the light of His Truth.

From a chronological standpoint we can look to the Scriptures and find an unbroken chain of events that allow us to arrive at the point in our secular history wherein the dates and reckoning of time are known to be accurate. Our God has not left us in the dark on this subject, yet He had for centuries allowed these facts to be hid from the view of earnest students of His Word. The unveiling of these truths began with the raising up of a special servant named Bro. William Miller who was born in Pittsfield Mass. USA in 1782, and just in time to be used by Jehovah for this special purpose. He was used of God to unlock truths along both chronological and prophetic lines which both point to the same answer as to your question. He died in 1849, just about three years before Pastor Charles Russell was born, who was able to complete the puzzle as to time reckoning in the Bible in regards to prophecy and pinning where were were in the stream of time.

From the standpoint of time measurement we would point to the God-given chronology which begins in Genesis chapter 5 where ten important links are given that will take us from Adams creation all the way to the drying up of the Great Bible Flood spoken of in Genesis chapter 8. This Chronology is listed in the second volume of Studies in the Scriptures (The Time is at Hand) on page 43. The links are found in Genesis 5: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 25, 28; 7:6 and finally 8:13. When you add these figures together beginning with the 130 years of Adam at the birth of Seth, you compute 1656 years. This is the first important link of chronology.

The second stage of the Chronology is the period from the flood to the making of the Oath-bound covenant with Abraham at the time of the death of his father Terah. Likewise nine additional links of chronology are given beginning with Genesis 11:10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20. 22. 24 , 32 (see the same book, page 44). These links likewise add up to an additional 427 years.

Following this is the period from this covenant to the giving of the Law Covenant with Moses. This period is not so easily found in the Scriptures, as the key to its understanding was not given until the writing of the New Testament by the Apostle Paul who gives the clue in Galatians 3:17, wherein he states: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Third stage: 430 years.

The next stage of the chronology shows the period of time from the Exodus to the division of the land of Canaan amongst the twelve tribes of Israel, which consists of Israels 40 year journey in the wilderness and the six years of war with the inhabitants of the land and the aforementioned division. These six years began with the one year period between their leaving Egypt to the sending of the spies into Paran; the other five years are described by Joshua in Joshua 14: 7, 10.
Fourth Stage Total: 46 years.

Next is the period of the Judges which spans from the division of the land to the anointing of Saul to be King in Israel. In the book of Judges and that of 1 Samuel, nineteen chronological links are given, but the mathematics is difficult and confusing due to all of the fragments or uneven periods of time. However, once again we are saved by the Apostle Paul who told us in Acts 13: 19-21: And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he divided their land to them by lot. And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. Fifth Stage Total: 450 years

Next is the period of the Kings which once again consists of numerous links or reigns of the various kings of Israel (21 to be exact). These links are found on page 50 of the second volume and they total 513 years.

Finally we have the period of the desolation of the land which began with the overthrow of the last King of Israel and lasted 70 years according to 2 Chronicles 36: 20, 23.
Seventh Stage: 70 years

This brings us to the date of 536 BC, which is a well established secular date wherein King Cyrus of Persia gave his famous edict and consequently the same place where the Bible falls silent in revealing these Biblical links of chronology. Thus from this point in history to 1 AD we add another 536 years.



Thus far:

FROM THE CREATION OF ADAM To the end of the flood 1656 years

Thence to the covenant with Abraham 427 years

Thence to the Exodus and the giving the Law 430 years

Thence to the division of Canaan 46 years

The period of the Judges 450 years

The period of the Kings 513 years

The period of the desolation 70 years

Thence to AD 1 536 years

Total from creation of Adam to AD 1 4128 years

Now, from the point of AD 1 to the end of mans 6,000 years of suffering under the curse (six days shall ye labor) brought upon them by father Adam due to his disobedience in Eden we arrive at the year 1872, and thus realizing that our first parents spent between 1 and 2 years in Eden before their dreadful experience with sin, that date is adjusted to 1874 AD as the due time for the Millennium to begin. From the argument of chronology alone we see that we are in the Millennium, but we would need yet the voice of another witness to prove the matter according to Scriptures, which would be prophetic proofs. (Matthew 18:16; 2 Corinthians 13:1). And herein, we suggest that for 6 1,000 year days humankind labored under sin and its effects as the curse that God placed on Adam and his offspring... and that the millennium mentioned by St Peter in chapter three of his third epistle is the great sabbath wherein mankind will be saved; freed from the bondage of sin; as described in the first few verses of Revelation 22 "and there shall be no more curse"; as Paul stated in Galatians 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God WOULD JUSTIFY THE HEATHEN THROUGH FAITH, preached before the Gospel to Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."



Prophetic proofs to come...
thanks

jonalfred

There are so many ways to consider the Millennium as it is really one of the central themes of the Bible. We are aware of this even though that particular word does not appear in the text. However, the phrase one thousand years does appear and that in the context of the reign of our Lord and Savior.

Although the chronology shows we are within the parameters of the Millennium, we often forget or fail to consider that it is still a future event because the particular part of the Millennium that we all long for is still somewhat future, i.e., that part which falls under the inauguration of the New Covenant whereby mankind will receive its long promised blessing of receiving an opportunity for eternal life.

I would suggest firstly that you might consider that from the very beginning the LORD considered the beginning of a day or epoch as starting with the night first and then the day, with the morning falling in between as in the creative days (Genesis 1:5). Likewise we see that in the Millennial day the evening also comes first, i.e., the Gospel Harvest, which was the final test upon the Church; then the ensuing Time of Trouble which began in 1914, the beginning of a great darkness.

We remember that Jesus was resurrected early in the morning and likewise His great reign as King begins very early in the Millennial morning before the world in general arises with their eyes open. The work of our Lord Jesus in the glorious time in which we live is set in stages and we must learn to be very patient and not find ourselves giving Him commands as to where we think He should be in His schedule. We understand that He is currently still seeking those who would follow Him and walk by faith and not by sight.

The prophecies given in the book of Daniel have a lot to say in regards to this time and it is in part because of them that we have the understanding that this Millennial day had its beginning in 1874 (hand in hand with the chronology already given). You will find a study of the book of Daniel with the aid of the second and third volumes of Pastor Russells writings very satisfying along this line. (links available on this site for this material)

Another line of thought that we might follow is that of the destructive demolition work that the Lord must do before He begins to set up His Kingdom on earth; indeed, a very necessary part. The Time of Trouble mentioned above and also embedded in the book of Daniel (12:1) must first pass and have its work before the blessing of ransom and restitution can really begin.

We see all about us in every country on earth, the devastating turbulence of human passion as society totters back and forth. Nations scramble to hold themselves together as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We have been assured by our Lord that this trouble will continue until the whole fabric of society comes apart and is destroyed at His feet. 2 Peter 3 gives us much information along this line. Let us take a look at versus 7-13:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

We notice that the reference in this verse to this catastrophic trouble calls it the judgment day. The heavens are the higher controlling powers of civil and ecclesiastical rulers. The earth here represents the social fabric, i.e., human society as now organized under Satans control. This is the second earth, the first being that of Noahs day before the flood as mentioned in vs. 5 and 6.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This verse gives an important clue to us as to the Millennium. These thousand years mentioned are the same as mentioned in Revelation 20:4 wherein the body of Christ is spoken of as living and reigning with Him over the earth for 1000 years, and you will note from this chapter of 2 Peter that it all begins with clamor and disruptive turbulence all over the world. We are not to be ignorant according to the Apostle that the judgment day of vs. 7 is the thousand years of vs. 8. This is one of the main keys to understanding the time and nature of the biblical Millennium. The fire in verse 7 is the trouble of this great day and well symbolizes the time in which we are living as we witness this social fabric being torn from end to end.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The purpose of this great trouble early in the Millennium is to soften the hearts of humanity while the Lord allows them to see that all of the trinkets that we gather in our short lives are very meaningless and that there are greater things yet to be seen. The attitude of our God toward sinners is not that of punishment and torture, but that of seeking to bring them all to repentance and these experiences that humanity is presently enduring will go a long way towards that end.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Indeed, this Millennial day had crept in as a thief in the night, so much so that many of the brethren who have been enlightened with a goodly amount of truth are having difficulty seeing just what the situation is. However we are not to be in ignorance (1 Thessalonians 5: 1-4) as we look about and see the facts being fulfilled as we watch what the Apostle here calls the passing away of the heavens with a great noise. This has particular reference to the present powers of the air under Satans control amongst both men and angels, especially within the Nominal Church system, passing noisily out of existence. In 1 Peter 4:17 the same Apostle intimates that this judgment or reckoning begins with the Church, or those who have called themselves by His Holy Name. The elements of the heavens spoken of here are the component parts that make up the present order of things amongst ecclesiasticism. It is fraught with tyranny, ignorance and superstition. It contains both the Capital element and the labor element as the churches have aligned themselves with the worlds governments and institutions, and these elements do battle with one another thus creating heat. The fire has extended itself to the social structure of humanity as foretold in this verse in the words the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

This verse speaks of the attitude that we should seek to develop in light of all of this information and the fulfillments of it in our midst. Recognizing that all these things are coming to pass before our eyes is proof also that the Millennium has indeed begun, for these things were not to happen until such time. It is thus proclaimed by the Apostles to be the last days or more correctly translated the last one of the days (2 Timothy 3:1). Notice that Peter also uses this same phrase in 2 Peter 3:3. The Old Testament Prophets often used the phrase in that day when speaking of this great millennial period and of the great events that would take place. That day is the millennial day that is as a thousand years that Peter spoke of. Isaiah 29:18; Jeremiah 30:8; Ezekiel 38:19; Amos 8:9; Zechariah 2:7; etc.

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The looking here is the command for us to be watchful in this time period to be looking for the evidence that we are in that specific time. The Apostles looked for it and the Church all down through the Gospel Age looked for it, but it was not yet due. It came due during the ministry of our dear Pastor Russell, having begun just shortly before he began to preach. It was the Parousia (translated in this verse coming) of the day of God. In the largest sense of the word our Pastor told us that the Parousia is the Millennium. The next verse tells us what we should also be looking for as to our future

vs 13... Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

we are to look for the new heavens and the new earth, i.e., the new spiritual powers that are Christ and His Anointed (Revelation 11:15) and the new arrangement for earthly society based on love and justice rather than might and oppression. This is the new social order of Messiahs Kingdom for which we have prayed.

Well dear one, I hope this information is of some help to you

jonalfred

Hey,
My bible study group has completed a 3 month study of the 1000 years along with the resurrection issue. The first resurrection is obvious to us as to when it happens. The 2nd resurrection is still not completely understood as to when it happens. That is what motivated my original post about this issue. This forum is respected by many people in our study group. That is why I came to it for help. Thank you for your info.

Thank you for all of the information. It sure is a lot to digest. My bible study group has put aside our usual study. In it's place we will study and research your post. As the bible states "prove all things." That is what we will do. Again I would like to thank you for your time and effort in out behalf.

If I can offer any further help just whistle. AS far as the "when"... I'm sure we cannot show that before the time, but we can learn much about the nature and order of it.... God bless your study

Hello Dear Rhody,

Its wonderful to meet another Seeker of Truth.

You said that you understand the time of the First Resurrection; would you mind sharing your thoughts about that? When do you believe it happened? I'm interested.

Blessings--rhonda