Artists are free to produce what they want - if they want to be free ! If they don't make commercial music.

Depeche Mode, for example, a famous band like DB is famous - now they work with EMI.

Alan Wilder, his experimental concept "Recoil" sounds similar than the Outside Outtakes.

And all the underground artists.

For all these reasons i can't understand that someone like DB could have difficulties to release Toy and Leon.

Has DB made the wrong choice to work with Sony and Virgin ? But if Sony and Virgin are known to release only commercial music - and DB should know their "philosophy" - why did he sign for with them and then to propose experimental music ?!

I know what you mean.
I could never understand why someone of DB's stature can't release whatever they want.

I suppose in truth He could if He bankrolled Himself,but maybe it's not worth the hassle.

Is it just play-acting ?

How could he work on an album (Leon) a lot with no true will to realize it ?

i think 1. Outside is probably fine the way it is. as fans we've warmed to it and long for more but it probably would have been too much of a jumble in one go (a bold statement but not for the great masses). the record companies don't always get it wrong and the artists are obviously keen to curb themseleves a little bit too and opt for quality over quatity, and also to let what they choose to release get out there and breath a little. leon could have been released as a limited edition years later but there is such a thing as saturation. sure the stuff is partially out there and people can download tons of boots easily but putting product out is different. toy would have flopped had it been released before heathen and i'm sure hours...isn't the pinnacle of his commercial success either so he made the right choice. still, they could have done a heathen special edition years later and milked it.

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And the Lord said: "Suffer all ye children/ Come unto me" (I'll see you all next week at the scout jamboree.)

I'm not agree with you Wok.

Between 1999 and 2002 3 albums were releasized (Hours, Heathen and Reality). Bowie and Virgin could have releasized Toy in 2003, for example.

And about Leon, it sounds wonderful (for my taste better than Outside - i love Recoil and Alan Wilder).

This goes to a comment I made in another thread - I find it very hard to believe that anything db does would simply be rejected by a record company. Doesn't make any sense at all.

The only logical conclusion is that the rumors about rejection are bullshit, and that db probably made the whole story up. He never intended to release 'Toy', or the Outside sessions. They were exercises in finding a new direction and a platform for further exploration - and ultimately a new album that he really wanted to release.

I find it very hard to believe that anything db does would simply be rejected by a record company. Doesn't make any sense at all.

The only logical conclusion is that the rumors about rejection are bullshit, and that db probably made the whole story up...

I think if he lied someone at Virgin/EMI would have made this known by now.

The problem with record companies is that by and large they are run by accountants.

Let that sink in.

Accountants.

The A&R people who understand artists have a tendency to grow up and move one to bigger and better things. When they get replaced by spotty youths raised on Justin and Britney...shit happens.

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Two points:

Why do we think Virgin/EMI rejected the album? How has this been verified in any concrete way? No-one really knows, the source could be simple speculation amplified on the internet or idle musings by almost anyone. Why would Virgin/EMI bother to deny it? Have they ever been directly questioned on the issue?

The fact that record companies are run by accountants is precisely why they would have released it, if it had been offered. Db is a well known quantity, with global fan-base who regularly buy anything he releases - hence the steady flow of re-issues. He is also quite prepared to support his albums with appearances and extensive tours.

I'll state it again. Virgin/EMI rejecting the record makes no sense. The only logical explanation is that he did not offer it for release.

Hmmm, horsebackbomber, I've never heard of that screen name before, so you're apparently a newbie, and yet you appear to be well versed in the goings-n at BWW/the life of Bowie. You wouldn't happen to be the poster formerly known as Gibson Paul and/or a current or former employee of EMI/Virgin would you?

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Oh yes, I'm well informed. I've lurked fairly regularly on this forum for longer than I can remember. Maybe more than 15 years?

I am (generally) a component of the mysterious dark matter that encircles this forum, deriving useful information from it while characters such as yourself perform the admiral task of populating it with amusing posts. My thanks to you all. I know I speak for many many others

Occasionally, when something extraordinary happens and I have the time I will wade in. I haven't for more than eight years.

No, I'm neither of the persons that you've suggested.

Why do we think Virgin/EMI rejected the album? How has this been verified in any concrete way?

Well there's this which culminated in this.

Reading between the lines, I'd say that was pretty conclusive. They failed to take up the option and when he offered them Toy they put him off so he decided to walk. By the time they made overtures to him about re-negotiating the contract (a year late) he was ready to jump ship.

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Nothing here that says Virgin/EMI wanted to reject the album. Db's objection was that they wanted to release it on their schedule, not his.

If you asked me to read between the lines, I would say that Db wanted to cut ties with with the label well before this, frustrated by Virgin/EMIs tendency to schedule album releases well into the future. He simply used Toy as a means to reach a stalemate and eventual dissolution of his contract.

Its not the first time Bowie product has been rejected by a record company. Tin Machine II, the live Sound and Vision set, etc.

The 'Hours' album had a lot of promotion but didn't do that well. As Nibbler said, major organisations are run by accountants not music fans.

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I can't understand it either. First of all, anything in the way of music that The Gentleman produces is a work of musical enchantment. And second of all, I mean, the record companies are only companies and Bowie is the Emperor -- THE EMPEROR -- of All Male Rock Stars. Does a company have more to say than an EMPEROR?

You argue from a non business-oriented perspective Sparkina, nevertheless your logic is impeccable

Well whatever the reasons were It would be foolish for Toy not to see an official release light of day via someone now that it has been leaked on the net. In this globalised world made smaller by the tinternet and in light of harsh economic times in the music industry, not to make a bit of money from an album like Toy just doesn't make good business sense.

Of course there is the artistic integrity argument from the artists point of view but the rules have changed these days. Its quite simple! either release it and get something back or risk it getting out for free anyway


Or maybe I'm missing the bigger picture and should just stick to driving trucks? you tell me

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REALITY bites
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I see no joy I see only sorrow, I see no future of your bright new tomorrow, so stand down Condems stand down please so stand down Condems.
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I actually can see why "Toy" wasn't released...

I mean - especially after 'Hours...' which really wasn't the "big return to classic bowie" - which is how it was advertised; and it wasn't a follow-up from Earthling (which I was hoping for)

Toy is sequenced HORRIBLY and so many of the songs sound like someone doing "a Bowie voice"... plus just the delivery of a few tracks sounds LAZY (like "In the Heat of the Morning" - you can't tell me that it sounds convincing when he says "I'm so much in love...")

all of the tracks that later showed up on Heathen (save "Afraid") sound better on Heathen than on Toy

if Toy had been released... I doubt we would've gotten Heathen, and that album certainly wouldn't have received as much 'buzz'

I doubt we would have gotten Heathen if Toy was released. In early 2001 David was planing a small promo tour to promote Toy's release which was supposed to be March 2001

According to Visconti David was "hurt terribly" by EMI's rejection of Toy.

I'm sure Toy could have been released if David stood up the goons at EMI/Virgin but he probably didn't want to piss off his corporate masters so he went along with an album of brand new material. After the Heathen promo tour and summer festival tours, David probably change his mind about Toy like he did about the Outside trilogy and "Leon" and locked Toy away in the vaults.

@ gabe : Ok ! If Tony Visconti said that, nothing to say anymore !

"if Toy had been released... I doubt we would've gotten Heathen, and that album certainly wouldn't have received as much 'buzz'"

Not agree with you. As i said elsewhere, some songs in Heathen are very beautiful. You say that because of Uncle Floyd, Afraid which are better in Toy than in Heathen.
These albums are two different researches.

96dbNibbler gave us a link (the second) where there is obviously our answer : DB said that he wanted to do commercial songs too ! Shit ! Awful ! But that is our David Bowie too - he is very strange !

@ Horsebackbomber i think you may be right when you write : "The only logical conclusion is that the rumors about rejection are bullshit (). He never intended to release 'Toy', or the Outside sessions. They were exercises in finding a new direction and a platform for further exploration - and ultimately a new album that he really wanted to release."

"The only logical conclusion is that the rumors about rejection are bullshit (). He never intended to release 'Toy', or the Outside sessions. They were exercises in finding a new direction and a platform for further exploration - and ultimately a new album that he really wanted to release."

That makes me wonder may every single album he has done he's pretty much got an exercise version. We've pretty much heard most of Scary Monsters one. There were rumours once that he did an album in 1990. Interesting to see what that's all about.

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"Suspected of being a shoulder surfer
But he didn't know from shit
About challenge response systems"

From illustrated db:

According to David's journal on BowieNet, the production and artwork of the album were finished already by early 2001. However, time passed and rumours filtered through that Virgin appeared to be reluctant to release an album full of songs they didn't have the rights to. At the end of 2001, Bowie left Virgin to set up his own record label ISO, but the complete Toy album thus far remains unreleased.

That's probably the clincher. 'songs they didn't have the rights to'.

A record company is about making money.

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Accountants.

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"You argue from a non business-oriented perspective, Sparkina"

I argue from the perspective of a Bowie fan

The majors want another "Let's Dance"!!!
They want bullshit!!!

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=Claude=
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Let them eat bullshit Claude!!

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Maybe Bowie was asking for too much for something non-commercial.

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"Suspected of being a shoulder surfer
But he didn't know from shit
About challenge response systems"

Wouldn't it be great if Bowie became the rebel - again....

simply saying no thanks to the music industry and posting what he wanted on the web...

he must have his own studio and could , if he wanted , do this at very limited cost....

dreams..

Perhaps Bowie wants too much cash upfront ,and the record company cant see enough profit returns ?

I'm guessing Bowie would want a better deal than say the guy from Depeche-mode ,in other words the guy from DM might be happy to let his record stand on its own merit ?

I remember posting somehwere or other when the album was still new (2002 I guess) that it would end up being broken up for use as bonus tracks etc. I was right. A real shame too as I was so enthralled by what was probably Bowie maddist project for YEARS that I was quite exited about it.

Hi HM, I haven't got Toy so can't really give a fair analysis ,but all the new versions of old songs I M O are poor and pointless ,and loose the charm of the originals which I love for what they are !

If Toy was released officially I'd get it ! but here's the crux if he'd have released it in the seventies I'd have ran like a greyhound to get it BUT I know he wouldn't have because during the 70s Bowie was a genius ,after the 70s he was ok ? don't get me wrong I still like Bowie and 1.Outside can hold its own with any of his 70s releases but its head and shoulders above his post 70s works ,these are only my opinions and don't count for anything !

I don't think Artists are really free to produce what they want except if they do everything themselves.

There is a concept very interesting, it's like linux but for music.

Artists accept you download their music for free and you buy it only if you use it for a commercial way and if you like it really you c an send money of course .

At the beginning I found it was crazy a little and finally I think it could be good especially for people who want to share their experimental music.

Have a look here http://www.jamendo.com

Yeah it's a shame when albums are denied by major record labels for whatever reason.

That was the whole reason he made his own label, ISO. Which is the way to go, IMO if your music is not really mainstream and you have the money to do it.

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http://www.last.fm/user/shane140