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Cleveland 72 "FM" broadcast? Have all avenues been exhausted on this one?

June 27 2011 at 11:01 AM

Stranger  (Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
BW Member
from IP address 93.96.117.236

I do remember reading about this show and an apparent FM broadcast before.

I also seem to remember a claim somewhere that one US show was assumed to have been broadcast on FM radio over the years because it was advertised on FM radio, and promoted by a radio station, hence 2 + 2 got to equal 5 in this case.

However, just noticed this statement on Bassman's site :

Sep
22 Cleveland, Public Hall - USA
This show was recorded by WMMS and brodcast on FM a week later but the station later destroyed the tape.

http://www.algonet.se/~bassman/tour/index.html


I tend to only use the bassman site for occasional reference, and despite the occasional error (exact duplication of wrong venue info from a bootleg, that I replicated myself when torrenting Madison 74), it seems a very accurate and well researched site, and the guy behind it seems unlikely to make such a statement above without foundation.

The question I have - rhetorical almost - but have all avenues been exhausted in any research by Bowie collectors into the above recording?

Not living in the US I would have thought US residents, in particular any near Cleveland would be better placed to look into it.

Now, I want to apologise from the off it just seems like telling someone to walk along the street, as much of this is common sense.

BUT...at any time, and in recent years particularly : with the wider and wider use of the net and ease of access to all, and with people who worked in the 70's coming to retirement age, or sadly redundancy in these hard times, it does seem here and there people are finding time to dig up things that they did not before. Hitherto unheard rercordings by many great artists still emerge.

So, on that basis, have any recent attempts been made to contact ex WMMS DJ's? Local music writers in Cleveland? Any societies or bodies in the Cleveland area which act as music libraries or restore old recordings? Asking around on facebook, or when Cleveland area concerts are shared on torrent sites if there are local collectors who may have such a recording, or know any local 'music historian' types who might be able to assist?

I appreciate a lot of this - my words above, and any attempts to try anything above may be pissing in the wind, and a frustrating waste of time. However I mention the asking around on torrent sites when Cleveland recordings are shared, as I did get a response from someone who knew the 'Sigma kids' when a Roxy Music show from the Darby Theatre (ie the Tower Theatre Philadelphia) was shared on Dime. So you never know.

OK, like I say, apologies if any of the above comes across as patronising or telling anyone how to walk, but just having read about a supposed FM show that was broadcast and wiped a week later, still makes me think someone could have recorded it...FM stereo was something still novel and new in the 70's, and anyone with a good hi-fi who had an FM aerial living in Cleveland, may well have taped it even if they had no interest or knowledge of Bowie. Within months, if not a year or so, assuming they didn't wipe it themselves, they would have realised they had something of worth...

I quote from the wiki :

As of the 2000 Census, the city proper had a total population of 478,403, and was the 33rd largest city in the United States, (now estimated as the 43rd largest due to declines in population)[7] and the second largest city in Ohio.

If 1% of what may have been the population of Cleveland back then tuned in - say 4,000, and if 1% of the listeners recorded it, that would be up to 40 recordings!

Certainly if 40 recordings were made, we'd know about it. We don't...however this is why if there is any truth in the statement re the broadcast, I'm puzzled if one doesn't exist...



------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
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BSI
(Login bowieseveninch)
BW Member
202.124.74.156

Re: Cleveland 72 "FM" broadcast? Have all avenues been exhausted on this one?

June 27 2011, 11:17 AM 

I had a collector in Norway play me a couple of songs back in the late 90's from what he said was the show you were talking about so it does exist in some way, shape or form. He also mentioned he did not have the full show. Now if this means he had the whole radio broadcast and not the entire setlist or some such I don't remember or know.

Looking back now I wish I had taken more attention to these snippets. He also gave me a sample of some Outside era recordings the same night so I was blown away but I don't really blame someone like that for holding back because he would have paid a pretty penny back then and why should he share such things openly?

Anyway, the show was recorded for FM and indeed played on US radio. Maybe one day it will show up somewhere?

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
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93.96.117.236

Interesting

June 27 2011, 11:32 AM 

Clearly Bowie and EMI have little interest in releasing such recordings.

There was a poll on Bowienet over which recordings people wanted released - and it's a shame this recording didn't get mentioned. Indeed I think I might have been contacted about that poll, I think that was the time Blammo contacted me and on reflection I don't think I mentioned Cleveland sad.gif. It's long been only a rumour so I didn't think to.

We still haven't seen the 'strongly considered' LA 5 Sep 74 (not to be bigheaded, but I still rate my Dime remix of that much more highly than the sludgy sounding bootleg version...though undoubtedly any official version would come from much better tapes of course), so this suggests the official channels don't take live recordings that seriously. Also the interesting presentation of Nassau 76 - there are good and bad sides to how that was done - also suggests that Bowie and those close to him still favour the more 'processed' / light in audience sound live recordings (eg ""Live"" and Well, Oy Vey Baby, the original release mix of Stage....).

My point with all the above, is that while, yes, I can understand someone hanging onto a rare recording, just like the way Shel Talmy held onto the mastertapes of The Who's first album, hoping for a huge deal, and a Who fan went into negotiate, pointing out he was holding onto a depreciating asset, the market for such a thing - that is, a market where it's worth real hard cash - is dwindling.

Yes a Bowie fan with a bit of wedge might pay out a lot for it, true. Enough to retire on? No. Enough for a small car or something? Perhaps, at best.

My personal feelings are if people with such recordings don't feel like sharing readily on the 'open market' (ie torrenting), why not at least try bartering and pushing for others to share something before they share it? After all, it's wrong to assume only the elite collectors of any artist have all the hard to find stuff.

Some of the people who suddenly offer up live recordings just because they feel like sharing it, are just private collectors / archivists, sometimes spurred on by the fact that others are sharing too, and that the more who try it, the better.

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
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BSI
(Login bowieseveninch)
BW Member
202.124.74.156

Re: Interesting

June 27 2011, 11:51 AM 

Some good points there.

I have loads of shows recorded over the years by big/small bands and artists that are tucked away in my boxes on MD tapes that I often forget I even own. They are all recorded by myself at shows with good gear and sound somewhat decent for live audience recordings and I have been asked a few times to share certain things which I just pass copies onto because I don't see the point in keeping something for my ears only when I don't even have any legal rights to them in the first place.

I think the ego is the largest obsticle in Bowie collecting circles.

Anyone remember those two London bell ends on the Reality tour in the UK outside trying to sell CD-R recordings with poor colour copied covers from the then recent shows....over 25-30 quid a pop.

Those sort of "collectors/fans" make me sick.

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
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93.96.117.236

Yes

June 27 2011, 12:04 PM 

I sometimes get - got this with Lou Reed torrents - someone saying "you didn't credit the person who shared it before!". This would be when I had, or if I hadn't I had lost that information. Not a real person, just a moniker from the internet, right?

So I make a point when torrenting some things to say thanks to those who recorded it and shared and most of all the ARTIST and their band! happy.gif

There's a lot of clinginess in Bowie circles and it's sad - passing fans, those who aren't that into Bowie but collect some gigs, have said that at Bowie collecting and said it stinks really.

Anyway, going to add a bit about Cleveland into my Dime sigs...and I should be getting some more good things to put on Dime soon. Much of the stuff I put on Dime isn't particularly rare, just a little touched up, but I do get people sending me things, and had some good offers recently, which hopefully will come through... happy.gif. So when I torrent those perhaps anyone with access to any Cleveland recordings might just give it some thought (I doubt it, but it's worth a try! Been asking about the 3LP of Bad Segeburg 18 June 1983 for six months or something now, but hopefully someone will help eventually! happy.gif).

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   
hm
(Login hang_man)
BW Member
87.82.198.178

Re: Yes

June 27 2011, 12:25 PM 

I'm hoping that early '72 show turns up that was previewed on A Live Review. Off the top of my head I can't rememebr where it was from, but the quality was amazing, and it predates Kingston Poly.

 
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hm
(Login hang_man)
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87.82.198.178

Re: Yes

June 27 2011, 12:32 PM 

Correction - Hemel Hempstead, 7th May. just after Kingston. FFS!

 
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(Login isolar2tour)
BW Member
212.95.120.200

Re: Yes

June 27 2011, 12:47 PM 

hi hangman, please contact me. thanks.

 
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(Login isolar2tour)
BW Member
212.95.120.200

Re: Interesting

June 27 2011, 12:20 PM 

interesting stuff that is, could you please contact me BSI? thanks.

 
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craigsjd
(Login csjd)
BW Member
81.97.138.60

Hemel 72

June 27 2011, 5:58 PM 

Hello

to clear up all the mystery regarding Hemel '72. I was given the orignal tape about 20 years ago by a Bowie fanatic who was the actual taper. He gave me a tonne of stuff at the time as he diodn't have the space to store it and was just pleased to see someone be enthusiastic about Bowie. I transferred the tape into my pc years ago and still have it, I did give a copy to 100% British about 10 years ago, which is where the clips come from but I'm just attempting to find the original cassette in order to have it re transferred/cleaned upand hopefully get it out into circulation.

From what I understand it has the earliest full Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud.

Anybody who claims anything else is mis-informed.

Cheers

Craig

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
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93.96.117.236

good stuff

June 27 2011, 6:11 PM 

glad to hear that...try to avoid any transfer by 100% (sorry if this sounds cruel) it will be too cleaned up / NR'd. It's best to let recordings breathe.

happy.gif

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   
hm
(Login hang_man)
BW Member
188.28.58.189

Re: good stuff

June 27 2011, 9:33 PM 

Woah. This is fantastic.

 
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hm
(Login hang_man)
BW Member
87.82.198.178

Re: good stuff

June 28 2011, 10:02 AM 

Also - do you know what it was recorded on? Great sound.

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
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93.96.117.236

still hoping this turns up one day...

December 11 2011, 7:01 AM 

someone must know the Norwegian collector... happy.gif

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   
hm
(Login hang_man)
BW Member
188.29.55.113

Re: still hoping this turns up one day...

December 11 2011, 12:37 PM 

Good bump. I like the Indiana Jones side of collecting. You take the haunted Cleveland corridor, I'll get on the Hemel hot air balloon.

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
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93.96.117.236

Well...

December 11 2011, 2:43 PM 

...I am beginning to give up hope on this one again, hang.

The flaw in my belief that this did exist was reading that quote (first post) about this. Somewhere in my muddled thinking, I'd got it in my head I'd read that on Ruud's site. I don't like his snipping bootleg requests on his site and other editing (his site though, true, so his rules ultimately), but he does tend to be right on most things as most contend.

However on noticing in the early hours that I got the quote from Bassman...Bassman does a great site, and it is authorative, but does have some errors. I remember how a couple of years back when this topic cropped up, someone saying that the rumour about this gig had got started because WMMS radio sponsored the show.

Now, reading that quote (like I say first post), made me think, well, it does exist! But it did seem odd that an FM broadcast of a show could be so elusive, and that there could be so little info about, no mentions in books etc.

So the Norwegian collector having this and playing a sample years and years ago...this could be more muddled memories or a tape that was masquerading as something that doesn't exist?

Still there are Bowie things emerging all the time - an early 78 gig in stereo that is not being shared I read about, other gigs not being shared too (like Hemel 72). But some are, and I'm working on some more things, some myself (yes, I know bad news for some, but I am starting to put up raw transfers of items too these days to pacify those that wnat those), and some with a professional mixer. There is a nice item that's pretty scarce (at least in decent quality) that we hope to share in the new future when work is finished.



------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   

Baal
(Login CageyUK)
BW Member
87.228.217.10

Re: still hoping this turns up one day...

December 11 2011, 3:03 PM 

If his first name was Arne, I may be able to point your post to him.

---------------------
webmaster@helden.org.uk
http://www.helden.org.uk

 
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(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
BW Member
93.96.117.236

Hi Baal

December 11 2011, 3:18 PM 

I do not know the guy's name.

Why not ask him anyway...I think this mythical recording is reaching near de-bunking stage again (if it ever reached anything near believeable for anyone other than me and perhaps a few others!), your contact might be able to help clarify things (or not).

happy.gif

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   
Jean Henri
(Login jeanhenri)
BW Member
62.194.135.121

Re: Hemel 72

December 11 2011, 4:05 PM 

@Graigsjd: Please share your Hemel Hampstead May 7, 1972 recording. Love to hear this historic performance.

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
BW Member
93.96.117.236

I think

December 11 2011, 4:16 PM 

a lot of people hold on to recordings for 'rare trades'?

A shame.

I think a just as reliable method - these days - to ensure rare things get shared is to offer up things online.

It's true 99% will not give back, but the 1% who do (and that 1% will not always be the same person/people) fairly often come up with some nice and interesting things.

The more that share, the more that do it.

Put it this way, if everyone hold on to things with a "this cost me time/money, you can't have it unless you offer me something rare back" nothing would ever get shared and the collecting scene would be pretty dry.

These days with online uploading/downloading it's amazing what will be offered up, so the more that partake, the better.

Re Hemel, I think that one could be interesting because it's got another version of Got to Get a Job, I think?

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   
hm
(Login hang_man)
BW Member
188.29.55.113

Re: I think

December 11 2011, 5:38 PM 

Here's the Hemel snippet if anyone needs it:

http://mediafire.com/?1tn9p27aputay5v

Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud
Moonage Daydream
Gotta Get A Job
I Feel Free

 
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(Login doctoroctopussy)
BW Member
82.25.223.194

Re: I think

December 11 2011, 5:51 PM 

Thanks Hangy. Sounds pretty good.

-----------------------------------------------

 
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hm
(Login hang_man)
BW Member
87.82.198.178

Re: I think

December 13 2011, 12:10 PM 

While this discussion is still 'live', and I've asked this before, but how likely is it that Bowie did some US radio sessions on the '72 tour. Given that there was loads of free time on it and the hype was in overdrive I find it curious that there are not even reports of at least a solo track or two done in any local radio station - there is a great disc of TREX US radio sessions from the same era.

 
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DG
(Login dag97)
BW Member
111.68.114.49

Cleveland 1972 WMMS Broadcast

December 13 2011, 1:49 PM 

I have tried several times over the past 35 years to verify its existence - including contacting WMMS - but to no avail.
In the book "Cleveland Rock & Roll Memories", Denny Sanders, former WMMS music director, recounts how WMMS pretty much had the credit for breaking Bowie in the USA and therefore why Bowie's first concert was in Cleveland but he makes no mention of recording and/or broadcasting the show.
The best we might ever get is that Ray, the guy who taped the second show which eventually became the Voom bootleg (much to Ray's dismay), says he also taped the first show so maybe now in the days of torrents, uploads and 'Toy' being not prosecuted he might part with it.....

 
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Stranger
(Login Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land)
BW Member
93.96.117.236

It may not always be accurate....

December 14 2011, 12:00 AM 

...but it was the wiki that said WMMS promoted the show, and someone else here made similar claims when we discussed the rumour of this recording a couple of years back.

Re the Cleveland recording, the guy that recorded it told me his Sept recording was taken from him, and that he doesn't have it? He has been offering the master tape up for a direct transfer, offered it to me twice, but didn't reply to his mails (at least nothing came). He says it sounds better than Va Va Voom.

It is a very good recording.

There are other very good ones that are likely to emerge soon, I know someone who'll be assisting in that. Many will already be in circulation but some will be upgrades, some will be barely circulated recordings, this should hopefully happen soon anyway.

------------------
The next EMI Expanded Editions:
* What are your hopes for these releases?
* Let's have The Man Who Sold The World with the complete Paris Cinema Studios, Feb 5, 1970 radio concert, and the complete April 1970 radio session. Hunky Dory - add the complete Paris Cinema Studios concert, June 1971 in stereo, from the BBC Stereo Transcription LP if the master is lost!
* Any future live 1974 release MUST include a recording of Drive In Saturday from the early part of the tour, it's classic!
The next DVD release?
* Cracked Actor / Omnibus documentary must be released on DVD!

Recommended:
Tiffiny Townsend | She's Got Issues | The She Creatures | My stuff, if you like bad singing

 
 Respond to this message   
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