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Need a little brainstorming to find more ideas

by

First of all there is a competition that take place every year in the province of Quebec for students of the Cegep (a level between high school and university specific to the province of Quebec) called "Science on tourne". Last year we had to make a machine to calculate time. I mean that the machine had to make 2 electric contacts with a predetermined time between those 2 contacts. The one who was closer to the time we had to do was the winner. To do so we were only allowed using mechanical energy such as springs, gravity, gas and similar power sources. This year they have a completely new goal (as every year). We must build an independent cart that will go through a half circular pattern as fast as possible and then take a tennis ball and swing it up in a box about 2 meter away. I started a brainstorm on my side to find any possible way to achieve this. I divided the problem in 2 parts. The first one is to get the cart up to the other side so I need a propulsion system and a steering system. I have to tell you that we are only allowed to take 1 action on the cart to start it up at the beginning and then it must be independent. Here the idea I had about the way to move it up.

Propulsion
1- Use a air tank, a regulator and a pneumatic motor. The problem with this one is that the wheel will turn too fast and they will just slip from the surface.
2- Use an heavy object attached with a steel wire to one of the shafts attached to the wheels. It's at the moment the best propulsion methods that I found but it will be probably kinda slow... Maybe a heavier mass would make it faster but it will also give more inertia to the cart itself so I'll have to make some test to see if it's a good idea.

Direction
As I have a circular pattern to follow I tough to use 2 wheels of different size to keep it turning. I would use bigger wheels on the outside to get it turning the right way. I'll calculate the size with the travel they will have to do (travel of the outsides wheel/travel of the inside wheel)

Now I come to the last and hardest part. I must find a way to tap, slap or catch and throw a tennis ball 2 meter away. I tough about using a mass attaching at a pole that would swing down like on a ballista. The pole would hit the ball or hit something that would throw out the ball.

Here is a link to the French website explaining everything
http://sot.bdeb.qc.ca/

Here is a link to a adobe document that show how the cart has to travel and how are placed the boxes at the end of the trip (dimensions are in centimetre)
http://sot.bdeb.qc.ca/pdf/airedejeu.pdf

I may translate specific rules to get it more specific to you but what I would like would be some feedback such as other way I may had forgot to achieve the things I described. I hope I was clear enough Feel free to make any suggestion even if they seem strange to you.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:44 PM

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so, whats good for cocker stuff anymore?

by wolf13

despite the fact i've played twice last year, and not a whole lot for the past few years before that, i am starting to get the itch to build a new cocker. I am completly utterly out of the loop as far as whats any good anymore.

So what should i look at? money is not a major issue if it means quality and is worth it. body will probably be a 2k3 or 2k4 boston twister body, it will never be electro at any point i own it, though performance is the issue. I will be going slide trigger, possibly shocktech, I am hoping i can find someone with an sfl frame and internals that upgraded it to an eblade since i absolotly love the feel of my sfl (i've shot single slide trigers for a long time now, and i have no desire to switch. i have a viking if i want an electro, though its my back up to a slide trigger sfl). airsystem and reg are taken care of.

so, with that info in mind, whats good?

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:48 PM

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A few of my own thoughts.

by

I've always wanted a CCM 86 degree slide trigger. It looks sweet and is supposed to perform exceptionally well. As far as pneumatics go, I'd go with a rock palmer reg and a shocktech bomb or a besales hollow point. A shiny ram is always good. Other than that, I like delrin bolts since they are light and allow for faster cycling and less force needed for recocking, are self-lubricating, and look neato. But really, I feel most of the products are hype and I'd go with basic internals and just buy a spring kit to mess around with to gain higher effeciency. The whole heavier valve spring to lighter hammer sping kind of thing is more important to me than how expensive your bolt was.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:52 PM

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Re: A few of my own thoughts.

by trb

"A shiny ram is always good."

haha.

Basically the things I care about in a mech cocker is having a nice 4way like a palmer's quich switch or orracle, or besales hollowpoint. The rest is springing and timing. Nothing else is really worth upgrading for it's own sake. But you can never go wrong with palmer if you are building. I do prefer QEVs, even on a mech.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:00 PM

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don't rule out a revenge

by

There are any number of folks on the AKA board that are selling revenge cockers for dirt cheap. You wouldn't be building your own cocker anymore but they're the cream of the crop as far as sliders go.
This one is pretty hot.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=415496
a tertiary plug: I have a black cocker SCM lpr that I'd sell if you're interested.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:39 PM

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My personal...

by Anonymous

Was a Palmerized cocker, with a benchmark single trigger slider. I love benchmark frames. Stab on the ASA, and pick your barrel. My gun was a right feed, but that's because I never did get used to aiming with a vert hopper.

Palmer front, Palmer valve, Palmer Stab, I was one happy camper.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:36 PM

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My cocker

by

uses ANS up front, while I'm moving to a PPS Quickswitch soon, I'm VERY happy with my Jackhammer and micro-ram. Tho what I've heard is the micro-rams sometimes leak out of the box. Never had this problem, but I've heard people complain about it.
-Wyz

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 9:06 PM

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Advice/Comment

by Thomas Mitchell

"2k3 or 2k4 boston twister body,"

I don't think they make them any more, I'm under the impression that they stopped in ~2002. If you check PBNation they are clearing a few body kits out though for $150-300.

As for slide triggers, Works, Belsales, and Boston Paintball are the smoothest I've felt. But a roller trigger in any 45 frame with set screws is pretty solid.

Every reg on the market from a major manufacturer is "good enough" as are most rams for a mech slider.\

JAM bolts are awesome and prevent chopping, that is my lone recomendation

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 10:43 PM

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you are correct

by wolf13

like i said, i have been pretty well out of the loop last few years on whats actually going on, and i was under the mistaken impression that they didn't stop making them until early last year. I am talking to the BPS guy selling those bodies on pbn as well as one or two others i have come across. i had a twister lite body a few years ago that was very sweet, but i did one of the worst things possible and sandridged it. Now that i have some extra cash and an itch to build yet another cocker (something I haven't done since high school) i figure what the heck.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 3:36 AM

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Re: so, whats good for cocker stuff anymore?

by 1188

The guys that make good stuff are pretty much the same guys that made good cocker stuff a few years ago.
My latest project cocker was built with free flow and palmer. Free flow lower internals, ram, and 4-way. Palmer rock LPR. I use a benchmark frame with an omega roller sear kit I found cheap. So far I’m been very pleased with it. It’s never gone down and I have had few problems gun fighting with electros, I just have to be a little smarter.
The free flow 4-way is not the shortest, but it is very smooth. Also the free flow ram is smooth, you can get it to move just by blowing into it. The trigger plate that came with the sear kit was very rough. I polished it up a bit and now it moves like silk.
I was given a set of QEV’s and figured that they wouldn’t hurt any, so I put um on. Wow, they do make a difference. Pull the trigger and the marker fires and the back block is just flying black, let go of the trigger and the marker's ready to go almost instantly. Very cool.

At the moment I’m using an ergo reg. It’s work well in the past put I think it’s in need of a rebuild. It’s starting to jump around a bit. I may switch to a Glad, not sure yet.

This set up has given me a fast and reliable marker. I couldn't be more pleased. Just recently I’ve just bought an egg, I have had a problem with out shooting my revy on a regular basis, so far with the egg, not a problem.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 5:03 AM

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personally...

by

...i'd stick with Belsales, Palmer, and AKA.

AKA: hammer kit, springs, Tornado valve, and Lightning bolt.

Palmer: Rock LP regulator, ram, possibly a Quickswitch x-way

Belsales: Rex Nelspot hammer kit and springs, Evolution bolt, Angry .45 frame, trigger springs, Angry trigger plate, Evolution roller sear, Angry or HollowPoint x-way

don't knock Belsales just because Smart Parts distributes for them. they still make some good stuff... and Ravi always said they got the silky smooth trigger pull just right. sorry, you hot rod trigger guys wouldn't like my setup.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 9:24 AM

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also...

by adam

...the stock parts aren't really that bad anymore when it comes to interals and front end pneumatics. with some TLC you can make a stock cocker rip

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 9:27 AM

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its a shame really

by wolf13

belsales old evolotions were a class act, its a shame that smart parts was the distributor. all the ones i shot that hadn't been messed with were pretty nice for getting into a nice easy rythem. aside from ravis opinions on the max flo, he usually had solid reviews that i had a hard time disagreeing with. Its nice to know the old names are still good, it makes things a lot easier.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 2:03 PM

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Anything AKALMP! nt

by

poknm

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 9:32 AM

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Fa Shizzle! nt

by Dr J

nt

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 1:12 PM

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have they changed much? how about jackel?

by wolf13

I had the tornado and lightening bolt in one of my old cockers, have they changed the design or charachteristics any? yeah, i like aka, and wouldn't feel bad about going with them again.

How about jackel machine from G3pb? any comments on thier stuff?

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 1:40 PM

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I have an all Jackal backend in my GenX...love it to death

by

Their backblock is about as minimal as it gets w/o getting dangerously thin like the Slik ones. The bolt, pullpin, and cocking rod all match cosmetically. The hammer and valve work well. Personally I would never pay the price for the slight performance gain by having a lighter mass, but I bought a gun used and it had these parts already. I'm driving them on a Nexus ram w/QEVs all powered by a Xonik frame...it's way faster than could ever be useful, but that's how I like 'em...

Oh, and I know most bolts have this now, but the timing slot is my favorite feature of all. Nothing like just dropping a wrench in to make sure that lug's perfect...


Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 5:36 PM

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Newest WGP Cocker unveiled - 2005 Superstock.

by The Inflicted

http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=43&page_id=295


Nothing too revolutionary here. The body style kinda reminds me of the Quest Numatix cocker clone.
I'm kind of dissapointed it's not Trilogy-based.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:03 PM

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Looks like they cracked

by Vantrepes

Since it's a different color, I would guess they put threaded feed necks on these.
I am not a fan of the thin lip in the back over the bolt, looks far too weak for my tastes.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:11 PM

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P-block? does this mean another standard bolt length?

by

or is this just gonna be the Superstock series alone? Last year superstock meant stock config with an eblade, so that leads me to think this is a glimpse at the stock 2005 series body. I could be wrong I guess...anyone have info?


Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:26 PM

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Word on the street is...

by The Inflicted

...It's going to have an evolution-length bolt.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:41 PM

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This is one of the times...

by Stitch- BrotherHood Customs

That i didn't need money for shop supplies and could spend it on new paintball guns.

That looks like it would be a good stock autococker.

I'm never a fan of electro cockers but once in a while its not bad

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:53 PM

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Don't know,, that frame looks kinda wierd, flimsy,,

by dingo

kinda like the body, not sure yet, but that frame, I'm def not digging it.

Just my 2 cents.

dingo


Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:42 PM

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Reminds me of the Palmers frame

by icouldbeahero

getting smaller at the bottom, opposite of like Timmy frames.



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:56 PM

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That picture is somewhat of an optical illusion...

by Chris Mader

PPS frames are basically the same width all the way down the 'handle' part. They're just modified Sheridan pumper frames after all.



Chris
http://www.vm68.com

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 5:43 PM

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My bad, thanks for letting me know. (nt)

by icouldbeahero

mrr.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 7:19 PM

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flimsy maybe, ugly for sure

by psiico

The body is snappy looking, I like the red/black too (like that matters any) but that frame is fugly. I'm no fan of electros either, or double finger triggers. No pleasing me, lol.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:16 PM

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meh overpriced

by

this is supposed to compete with the b2k5 for 140 more lol
Im sorry but anyone in thier right mind would buy a b2k5 for 500 over this
This just WGP trying to gouge(sp?) people as much as possible until they realize there are better guns out there for less money

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 6:16 AM

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Dude... where ya been

by Dr J

E-Frame 'cockers have always cost more than competing markers at the same level of performance.

And 'cockers in general (not counting the years where they were the top competition models versus mags) cost more for their amount of performance that competing guns.


You wanna talk about over charging... let's talk about the electro-pnumatic spyder... the Timmy!


Just my two cents. No offense meant.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 1:16 PM

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More of the same (what I should have said the first time)

by Dr J

So basically I agree with you. For the most part autocockers price is range is higher than their performance range.

BUT... they do offer the most upgrades available for the most customization available.

And... this cocker is at least closer to competing models than I have seen them in the past.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 1:19 PM

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Why can't we have a morlock that can overlap solenoids?

by TRB

Just wondering, what technical reasons, if any, prevent km2 from making a morlork board the same size as the current one, with the capability of overlapping solenoid energize times? I don't know much about electronics. Is it possible and they just don't do it? OR is there some complexity jump they are avoiding?



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:52 PM

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One problem..

by Shocker2k2

One problem with that would be that the solinoids would fire at the same time. Usually when you have two different solinoids they fire at two different times to cycle the gun properly. Maybe im just missing what you are saying..

Nick

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:55 PM

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Re: One problem..

by TRB

I'm aware of that.

The question is whether the morlock and variants thereof cannot overlap solenoid energize times because KM2 feels it is not necessary for the most part, and so they just did not incorporate that feature, or because it would not be technologically feasible in the current package.

I can think of several applications where I would wish the solenoids to be on at the same time, or thier timing to overlap.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 2:00 PM

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I can think of one good situation

by

You could use timing overlap to make up for any lag/delay in the solenoids responce time.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 2:28 PM

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Re: I can think of one good situation

by Trb

Right.

Or perhaps you want to run a warp feed or other accessory starting before and running throughout the firing cycle.

OR maybe you want to make an open bolt halfblock cocker.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:37 PM

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Yes, it would work

by

They simply aren't programmed for it. But technically and logistically, yes the board could do that.
I imagine you would need a larger capacitor for some applications, though.

The board's design is very simple. In case anyone reading wants to know, it's just based off a pair of transistors which will switch battery voltage to the solenoids upon signal from the microchip. They can be both active at once, or exclusively active like is allowed by the current software. No real difference except for perhaps a loss of current like I said. But I don't know for sure since I'm no electronics expert by trade...

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:58 PM

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cool

by TRB

I thought maybe it all had to be done in series with the current hardware the way it was and such. And that solenoid overlap capability would require a different design.

If Km2/tag/whoever could just write code to allow such programming they need to get with it. I know the electrician has been wanting the capability as well.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:23 PM

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Always looking for suggestions, but...

by

...this idea was brought up during the conception of the programming to be placed onto the new predator-morlocks a while ago.
I assume the reason why the baords do not feature this is becuase it would be very difficult to adjust. You would have to set the time into the firing cycle that each solenoid output is activated, then the duration for each. if you didn't want them to overlap you'd have to subtract one from the other plus your solenodi one holdoff....perhaps too much to deal with was the conclusion drawn by Curt.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:23 PM

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not that hard

by

To program that would not be so hard as that. You would just set a timer in action at the start of the first noid fire and delay until the second fires. The delay could be shorter then the firing time of the first. If it is they overlap. If it is not then they don't. Simple. I have used counts like that in programs I have writen on for the PC.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:41 PM

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Mini-Morlock. . .

by Jordan

Anyone used a Morlock to power something like, say, a F-5?

I've got an Sandridge F-5-esque idea for a Cocker body I've got lying around, but I'm a little leary about trying to program the board to run two solenoids, time the gun to shoot properly, and have everything work in the end.

Any people with experience out there?

Thanks.
Jordan

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:15 PM

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Yup...

by Conqueror

I parted mine out recently, but I ran a standard TF5 setup (minus the ram sensors) with a morlock with no trouble. If you follow the steps in the manual they are quite straightforward to program. Mine worked the first time I turned it on after finishing the wiring. It was slow, but then some tweaks to the timers brought it up to speed.

Go for it; I had no regrets.

CQ

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:51 PM

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I agree

by Joni

I have a mini-morlock, but I don't use it for a double noid gun. It is a easy task to do so after reading the manual.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 12:22 AM

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OT: M.s.n. down...

by Stitch

Anybody else haveing this problem?

I've tryed several times to alow the connection trouble shooter evaluate the problem but it comes up with nothing.

It will not allow me to log in and i've tryed to get int my hotmail account through the internet but no luck.

If anyone else has had this problem and has fixed it please let me know.


Stitch

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:13 PM

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I had that problem a few weeks ago

by Shocker2k2

Just wouldnt let me do anything. Was like my hotmail account was just canceled or something. But i restarted my computer and just waited a lil while and i was able to get back in no problem. No idea what caused it.

Nick

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:26 PM

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Still nothing...

by Stitch

i restarted my computor but it still dosen't work.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:10 PM

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Hmm..

by Shocker2k2

I would just give it a while. It didnt work for a few hours for me if i remember right. Luckly thats just my secondary email address. If you would like a gmail account leme know, i have more invites now.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:25 PM

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Devil mag faster thne the speed of light?

by Anonymous

ummm how does this work?

"The predator does not "sample" the trigger as other boards do. The instant the trigger is depressed it leaps into action at the speed of light in less than 200 nanoseconds. If you fired a laser down the field at the same time the trigger was pulled, the predator would begin firing your gun BEFORE the light made it to the player you were about to shoot, nothing is faster."

taken from:
http://www.devilsden.tv/devilmag.htm

2 miliseconds (same as 200 nanoseconds)at light speed = 1964160 feet now even with a flatline that opponent would be far away.



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 10:55 AM

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Re: Devil mag faster thne the speed of light?

by TRB

It said that it would start to fire the gun. Where they are coming from is electricity travels at the speed of light (i think) so as long as your opponent is farther than the distance from the board to the microswitch than the signal that you have pulled the trigger will reach the board before the laser would.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 11:05 AM

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oh wait

by trb

200nanoseconds != 2 milliseconds

1 ms=1sec*10^-3

1ns= 1sec*10^-9

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 11:09 AM

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pesky microseconds. nt

by Lurker27

nt

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:08 PM

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Incidentally...

by

All that's really saying is that it's on an interrupt... "Like other boards" is a bit... liberal... Since probably 75%+ boards on the market run on an interrupt. Of course, the specific time depends on clock speed and processor type - for example an 8051 processor on a 12mhz clock would be 1microsecond (1000nanoseconds), as would an AVR on a 1mhz clock, but an AVR on a 12mhz clock would be 83.33... nanoseconds. But when you start measuring paintball interactions in the ream of nanoseconds, it really starts to lose relevance

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:46 PM

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I remember Curt talking about that line....

by

He said he wrote the "hype" for the board and wasn't prowd of it, though the facts behidn what he said are of course true...haha

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:14 PM

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Whoa whoa whoa first of all...

by

200ns = .2µs = .0000002s.
Meaning, that laser would travel 192ft before the gun started firing. Not only is that not suprising, its not very fast!
Electricity travels through Copper at least 60% the speed of light, or 111600mi/s. So assuming "begin firing" means the instant the processor send the signal to fire, they are arguing that their gun is fast because an electrical impulse travels a few inches from the battery, through the trigger switch, through the processor in 200ns.

Electricity will travel 117 feet in that time, through copper. And I would hope their boards are at least aluminum wired.
A simple battery, switch, solenoid circuit will 6" of wire will begin firing in 198ns


I'm not impressed.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:17 PM

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That's ok... current physics say nothing is faster than light BUT...

by DeeEight

I think that's probably just because nothing's been recorded moving faster so far.

The total number of "cosmic rays" so far detected on earth has been under a dozen, and the fastest of those, when it was measured, would have lost a race from the earth to the sun with a light beam, by a few centimeters. And that's just of the ones they found a way to record the passage of and measure since they started looking for them. Not to mention the fact that they still don't know what creates them either.





Posted on Jan 22, 2005, 1:11 AM

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Any one have some Timmy part numbers?

by Vantrepes

I am working on a modification for a Tippman 98 e-bolt for a customer, and I need some parts numbers. He's got a board, but the switch and eye leads on the harness were destroyed by the previous owner, and he would like to do it as cheap as we can.
I checked the Rat's Nest, and found some of what I needed, but these were not in there.
Here is what I need part numebrs for:
The eye wire connections, I need the part number for the socket, pins, the whole connection.
He would like a WAS type switch, or something similar, so anything like that would be nice.
I would preffer to be able to order them from Digikey, but if you have the numbers from somewhere else, I can dig them up myself.

Thanks in advance,
Vantrepes

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 9:12 AM

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Do you mean Tippy?...

by Stitch

...because it says in your post 98 custom e-bolt

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:10 PM

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Nope, Timmy parts going into a Tippmann

by Vantrepes

He's got the E-Bolt already, so he picked up a broken WAS Board, and wants to install it with the eyes, which I will have to assemble anyway, since the stock eyes won't reach on the breach on a 98.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:16 PM

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Have Blue has the WAS switches

by

and they're really cheap and I like em. I bought 2 of em and I'm looking to order more soon.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:42 PM

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They're just Omron D2F-FL microswitches...

by

Nothing fancy, around a buck a piece at Digi-Key.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 8:53 AM

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Re: Do you mean Tippy?...

by Hahafunnyman

I think Stitch is pretty messed up. Why dont you just leave him alone, Stitch? I think we all know he ment Tippy

Posted on Jan 23, 2005, 9:30 AM

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Here you go...

by

http://www.intimidatorowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324

Hope that helps.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:21 PM

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Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. (NT)

by Vantrepes

Nope, nothing to see here, move along....

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:33 PM

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Oh...

by Stitch

Eyes on a tippmann?

Post some pictures when done if possible i've never seen that before.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:12 PM

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eyes on a tippmann

by

first part of this thread goes into detail of how NN did it
http://www.model98.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2242&highlight=supergun+natural+newbie

you can see the eyes right at the breech in the last picture in this thread
http://www.model98.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3670&highlight=supergun+natural+newbie


I'd have never of seen it either, but I stumbled upon NN's super tippmann when I was doing some research and instinctively wanted to copy the design. Very slick marker.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:58 PM

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Calling all machinists

by

I've done some design work for a small customs company. They're disenchanted with their current machinist and are looking for a replacement. Common themes here at the guild are being hard-up for $$$ and doing custom work.

The parts are triggers, bolts, and hammers, for starters. drop my email a line if you're interested in doing a run.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:49 PM

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I'm game?

by

Email me.


Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:43 AM

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Sure drop me a line....

by

I have you covered...

Matt
MadCustoms



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 11:54 AM

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Re: Calling all machinists

by

hit us with an email

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 5:32 PM

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Can anyone explain why tournaments gouge on paint prices.

by

sponsored by paint companies? $80-100+ for paint at a sponsored event is absolute total gouging of the players, for no good reason. This is the sponsored paint it should be at or quite near the wholesale price or even lower.


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:25 PM

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Profit margin, among other things.

by CR Pyro

Entrance fees alone do not fully cover things like:

Venue,
Prizes,
Insurance,
Comps,
Profit,
etc., etc., ad nauseum. It's expensive running any type of event, and the entrys don't cover all of it, so they make it up in paint sales.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:30 PM

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Thats one of the ways to make money.

by

Well that would be one of the ways to pay for a event. The use of the field, Paying Reffs, Prizes, renting a air trailer, maybe even renting another set of bunkers.


Tim


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:31 PM

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Re: Can anyone explain why tournaments gouge on paint prices.

by Kallahan

Normally on open play days the field has 1 or 2 refs and a few others manning air stations and such. Now you have 4 or 5 fields with 7 or 8 refs, plus tons of "backstage" people. Those are just the begging. It costs a lot of money to put on a tournament, I don't think tournament sponsors pay for too much as they like to make money there too.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:32 PM

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Same reason you see...

by

... $5 hotdogs and $6 beer at the ballfield. Same reason you get $35 T-shirts at a concert. Or $7.50 buckets of popcorn and $4 "medium" sodas at the movie theater. Same reason you pay $3 for a wad of cotton candy at the Fair.

It's the same reason you pay $3 for that itty-bitty bag of Doritos at the 7-11. And the same reason a cheap donut is $2 at the newsstand in the lobby of an office building.

They charge what they can get away with paying. Pure and simple.

However, to a certain extent they're forced into it- they're paying the landowner, possibly some local city or even state use permits, insurance, they're fronting buckets of cash for air and concessions... But again, like the freeipods.com thing below, they're not putting these things on simply because paintball is really cool. They're moneymakers, and usually pretty good ones.

Doc.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:41 PM

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Gouging paint is pure bunk ................

by B

Sponsors are supposed to use there money to support the event not the event not try to get is back through sales. I can see the vendor prices being up, but not the paint sponsors. The money should be coming from them through there marketing. There is not another sport the has major sponsors gouging their competitors. For instance Goodyear, if they are the tire sponsor of an event you can bet the tires will be cheaper then through any other source.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:06 PM

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What about smaller regional tourneys?

by CRySyS

We put on a small regional 3-man series in Central Texas and a larger 5-man series all over Texas. We don't charge dealers anything to come in because we don't really have the numbers needed to support dealers. All the money needed to put on the event and pay for the prize package, and all the ancillary costs are covered by team entries and paint sales. We can't make money unless we have 16+ teams in a small event. The larger ones cost us money if less than 20 teams sign up. $80-$100 used to be the norm across the country for paint period. Now days it's a bit steep for an event. That tells me there are no other promoters in the area competing for teams. Paint at out events start at $65, but Texas is a big state and we compete with two other series.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:42 PM

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Goodyear

by Spike

I doubt the tires are any "cheaper", and you have to figure that if Goodyear is the sponsor/official tire, there are usually penalties (weight, maybe more) if you use a different tire (BFG Hoosier, etc..)
Not to mention compound restrictions, official width/sizes...boy you can open a whole can of worms using Goodyear as an example..

Hehe..not a flame..I just got on a "thought" there..

I think you should be able to use whatever paint you want and the "you must buy field paint" is crap. Play with $42.50 Midnight if you want...let the "Pros" play with their expensive stuff.


Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:00 AM

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Well, an idea I've been tossing around...

by

Sorta like All Day air VS air fills: Just have a BYOP tarriff, a Tax on non-field paint. So you can use whatever you'd like, but pay like, 10$ extra, so the field gets some cash.
For people who's Guns are picky.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:02 AM

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That could work...and keeping it reasonable ($10) sounds good. (n/t)

by Spike

nt

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 9:06 AM

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How do you enforce this? nt

by Dr J

nt

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 10:26 AM

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Bingo...

by CRySyS

You'd need a sealed field and turnstiles to catch all the paint comming in. But it would be nice if you can make it work. No more blaming the paint for your loses, if it didn't shoot good you should have brought something else!

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 1:55 PM

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It's easy actually...

by

When a player registers they either buy a minimum amount of field paint, or pay the surcharge.

I have a local field that does this.

To their credit if you have at least a bag left over they offer you a "paint pass". No paint minimum or surcharge next time you play there.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 9:03 PM

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So whats to stop you from...

by CRySyS

Buying a bag of paint there to avoid the surcharge and then bring four cases in to use? You still need to watch the door and at most fields there is no door to watch. It's even easier to sneak it when you stage out of your car.

Posted on Jan 22, 2005, 2:50 PM

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Usually...

by manike

The money for the paint doesn't go to the 'paint sponsor'.

They still just get paid wholesale. The 'extra' goes to the tournament promoter.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:14 AM

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Don't fully agree....

by Painthappy

Quoting:

--------------

... $5 hotdogs and $6 beer at the ballfield. Same reason you get $35 T-shirts at a concert. Or $7.50 buckets of popcorn and $4 "medium" sodas at the movie theater. Same reason you pay $3 for a wad of cotton candy at the Fair.

It's the same reason you pay $3 for that itty-bitty bag of Doritos at the 7-11. And the same reason a cheap donut is $2 at the newsstand in the lobby of an office building.

They charge what they can get away with paying. Pure and simple.

-------------

The above is a different set of economics with supply/demand, limited sell time, cost of vending, etc... And you're right, it sucks... but they do have a captive audience...

The difference is: You're not forced to pay those prices. You can choose not to pay. Also, it has nothing to do with sponsoring... The T-shirt seller is not sponsoring the concert. He's just paying the land owner a fee to be there, and trying to make up for his cost, and get a profit.

I used this example in a below comment.

It would be like NIKE sponsoring the Boston Marathon.. and then forcing all the runners at that event to only wear special NIKE shoes... but all the runners had to pay a higher then normal store price.... to "cover costs".

On top of the runners paying to be there. That is not sponsorship... that's outright profit. And there is nothing wrong with profit... just don't call it sponsorship.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:14 AM

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Your example isn't perfect either...

by Dr J

The money for the entries of the marathon IS enough to pay for it (along with sponsorships in the form of banners and logos on the runner numbers etc.)

Now... if you take maybe a third the entry fee and require the buying the shoes... you're getting close.


But in the end NOBODY is forcing anyone to buy paint. Don't want to buy paint at that price? Don't play in that tourney.

I'd love to see more tournaments that have reasonably priced paint. But it just isn't out there. The best I've seen is $55-$65 for Premium at a tournament (at AtomiX) and about the same for Blaze (at the old Toledo Indoor field, closed now).

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 10:32 AM

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Re: Your example isn't perfect either...

by Warparty

That is why I like the ICC. PMI Premium is only $48.75, and Evil is $57.25. A league or series can have good prices, if the players control it. With no insane proffits neccesary, prices can be kept low. But it takes a lot of volunter work by the players, and unfortunaltely a lot of them 'dont have time' or 'think it is to much hassle'. Those also seem to be the ones who bitch the most when things dont go smooth as cream. Go figure.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:05 PM

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Leagues are definatley a way to go! couple of reasons...

by Dr J

Paint will usually cost less than a tournament ($50 for premium at ours) and sometimes even less than open play.

And the fun of competition remains while much of the stress from over competition is removed.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 1:22 PM

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but those are all items NOT needed for the game.

by the underdog

if they charged the baseball player for each pitch thrown i think that would be a better analogy.

but i understand the concept. they'll get what they can charge for it.

gotta love stockclass

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:05 AM

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Simple Supply and Demand.

by sumdumguy

They know that as long as they got you there, they can make you pay whatever they want. You have to have paint, and they're the only place you can get it.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:29 PM

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Events Aren't Cheap

by Bonzai Bob

I've run a variety of events for the past ten years and can tell you events are not cheap to put together. Further, paint companies don't offer any real discounts to the event promoters. The best I've ever managed was $3 below best dealer pricing--and that was after selling more than 1200 cases the year before.

Here are some figures fo an off-site event we ran.

$4500 Prize Package
$1500 Reffing Crew
$1500 Event venue rental
$1200 Hotel for staff and refs
$1000 Misc Expenses
$800 Liability Insurance (+$1 per player, per day)
$600 Trophies
$200 Toilet Rental
$500 Set-up Crew
$200 Equipment Transportation
---------------------------------------
$12,000 Fixed Costs

Add to that, the cost of equipment (fields, bunkers, air, etc).
We pay $50 per team for air services and a field (net, poles, bunkers) costs us $1250 to rent. Assuming we can run 16 teams on a field, the equipment rentals cost us $2050 per field (includes air)

So, to run a 16 team tournament, over two days, costs $14,000. Break that down per team, and you get a cost of $875 per team. That's before a single dollar of profit is turned. Doubling the attendance to 32 teams brings the expenses up to $18,750 and reduces the per-team cost to a little less than $600.

The profit's gotta come from somewhere, otherwise there's no incentive to produce an event. Granted, I think $80-100 is excessive for all but the largest of tournaments.


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:39 PM

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He's right about high prices and sponsors....

by Painthappy

The idea of sponsoring, is basically paying to get advertising at an event. You pay through product, or pay for SOMETHING.

Right now, not only are you paying high prices and profits towards the paint, your also paying a fee to play.

It's just like "give-a-ways" at large events. PPS had some Stabilizer gift certificates that were given away at EMR last year. Do you think EMR payed full price for those? Or was that PPS's way of advertising their product?

Worked for me.. I won one... not only did I use it, but I have bought more since....

When I rowed in the "Head of the Charles" for crew many moons ago.... Powerbar was a sponsor.... Did we buy powerbars at full price? No.. they gave them away.


In the paintball tournament world... We pay to play. And then we pay high prices for paint... And everyone gets tons of advertising out of the deal.. all at the expense of the player.

The paint should be just high enough to cover their "costs". Not to make a profit....

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:42 AM

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So people that run an event...

by manike

Should price the paint (before knowing how much they will sell and how many teams will enter) to just cover costs?

If the people running events aren't making a profit, do you think there will be many events?

Paint sales are how a field or event makes its profit.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:23 AM

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Exactly my point...

by Painthappy

"Paint sales are how a field or event makes its profit."


This is true for your generic paintball day or generic event. But "B" the original poster is talking about Specific Events (such as skyball as an example) that was "sponsored" by Zap. So you had to use their paint and their paint only.

The definition of "sponsor":

[quote]
One that finances a project or an event carried out by another person or group, especially a business enterprise that pays for radio or television programming in return for advertising time.
[/quote]

When I sponsor an event... I'm Paying to do so. I'm not making a profit from it. I'm paying for advertising time. PPS or WGP "sponsored" part of the EMR castle event last year. They gave that equipment to be given away... not made a profit from it.

When AGD or WGP "sponsors" a team.. do you charge them $20.00 extra per gun... just so they can wear your logo on their shirts? Or do you give them a discount... so they advertise your name and talk up your company... so it's a win-win situation for both of you?

So when a paint company "sponsors" an event... you get higher then normal priced paint?

Do they run the Boston Marathon every year... and force all the runners to wear "NIKE sponsored shoes only", and charge then extra money per shoe.. so they can cover costs?

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:07 AM

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Paint sponsors work a little differently to hard goods.

by manike

What goods do you sponsor with? Who do you sponsor?

Paint sponsors, sponsor an 'event' to have their paint used there and to get the publicity and also (quite importantly) to stop another paintball company getting in.

The 'Sponsor' is sponsoring the 'event' NOT the players. They aren't paying for the players to attend and have an event or to reduce the players costs. They are paying for the EVENT to happen. Their financial obligation is to the EVENT (and promoter).

THEY usually sell the paint to the event at wholesale or sometimes a little less. (This is like the gun manufacturer selling to teams at a lower price or giving them stuff for free).

The EVENT then sells the paint to the players. (This is like a sponsored team selling their equipment to other to make funds for the team).

The EVENT is who is gouging the players on the paint prices to cover their costs and make a profit.

When you sponsor with hard goods, you are usually giving them to the event for the event to use as prizes or to give away. If they use the goods as prizes and an incentive to get people to attend then they are making money from those goods also, but in a different and less direct way.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:47 AM

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sponsorships

by wat

Coca-Cola was sponsor of Atlanta olympics, so thus they should give cokes away instead of selling em for $2 each? Maybe Proud Promotor of Olympics would have been better title...

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:49 AM

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If you took note athleats at the games did not pay ........

by B

for a coke the spectators did.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:06 AM

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Yep...

by manike

So here the guys running the tournament, get free stuff... but their customers pay.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:08 AM

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The players are still the largest source of income

by Hans

Most local tournaments just aren't going to get any spectators to speak of, which means that the organizers have no other choice but to charge the participants.

Right now, the game just doesn't have the spectator following to change that fact... pure and simple. But there is a lot of other issues to solve first before that will come close to happening.

-Hans

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 8:40 AM

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HOCR...

by matt214

Never thought I'd see mention of a rowing event on this board. I coxed a club boat this past year, good times. A bit cold, choppy and windy; and it was only my second time on the river, but it was fun. May I ask who you rowed for?

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 12:24 AM

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Sure...

by Painthappy

I rowed for Skidmore College out of Saratoga Springs, New York... and then for University of New Hampsire a couple of years later.


My rookie year we came in 1st for New York State, and 2nd place at Dad Vail. That was 1994 man.. wow... It was that fall we raced in the Head of the Charles.

Never got to do that race for UNH.... The UNH crew team was only considered a "club" sport... well only for the men's. Once you're at a school with a football team you have to do some male/female athletic ratio, so the men's crew team lost out....




Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 4:10 AM

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Rowing has to be one of the toughest aerobic all body sports.

by manike

My school used to be seriously into rowing. I never competed (I played Rugby and we could only do one sport) but I used to train with the rowing guys and they were soooo fit. Great sport, but I was always 'cathing crabs' (means digging too deep with the oar, for those that don't row) when ever I tried skulling.

Used to go watch Oxford V's Cambridge sometimes too!

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 5:15 AM

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Aaargh for an edit function...

by manike

'Catching crabs' not Cathing... Although I did meet a girl called Cath at a rowing function once...

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 5:16 AM

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Rugby...

by Painthappy

Rowing guys are tough.... no doubt, but so weren't the rugby guys.

I played Rugby for a local club for a bit... But my knee got screwed up and put me out since.. I'd like to go back... but anyhow...


I knew it would be something, my first day of practice at the pitch. It was a simple scrim, but one of the guys got hit hard.. just above the eye. Blood everywhere. We stopped, taped him up, wrapped him up. Our Captain said "Yup, you're going to need stiches... You want to finish playing first or go to the hospital?"

Truly classic... and true to the nature of that sport.



Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 8:02 AM

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Re: Rugby...

by

Every successful men's club has at least one doctor as third-string outside center. A club in my area learned that you ALWAYS put him at third string when it was their doctor who broke his leg. Fortunately, however, their pitch is right next to the hospital, so a couple guys carried him right into the ER.

... But he's a gynecologist. He's a good stitcher, though, and he tends not to mind the smell ...

CasualJames

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 3:27 PM

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Rugby and Rowing.

by manike

Rowing was crazy aerobic fitness, so was basketball (only played a bit in high school) and boxing training (did it through uni). I always found being fit for rugby was a bit of a different thing, and the only way to achieve it was to play the game.

The thing about rugby, was even when physically fit you had to become 'rugby fit' which meant being able to take the physical knocks and abuse. I used to train for a couple of months before the season started, and then it would take at least 4 weeks of training twice a week and playing twice a week to be actually able to play a full game at a decent level.

Man, it was abusive, but fun. Gave up after dislocating both shoulders twice...

Posted on Jan 22, 2005, 4:52 PM

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Rowing...

by matt214

I've got an ergometer sitting right next to me to stay in some shape during our off season. I've also swept before, in a 4+ with 2 other coxswains and 2 angry rowers, needless to say, I thought we were going to flip and drown. The best part was having 3 coxswains rowing, a 6'2 rower coxing and one 6'1 rower bitching about having to row behind a 5'5 cox. I want to learn to scull as well.

I've never been to Dad Vails, we go to ECACs, I think Skidmore is planning on attending this year. UNH is usually there too, I have a few UNH shirts

Intrestingly enough, I was asked when I was a freshman to join the club rugby team, but was well on my way to being a cox at that point. Hopefully this summer, I'll be racing at Henley and enjoying Pimm's.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 1:16 PM

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Maybe the word SPONSOR has a different meaning in paintball?

by

I mean, in most other areas of life, if one is sponsored by another, there is an implied, and usually expected benefit to the recipient of the sponsorship...

This doesn't seem to be the case in paintball, where if you are sponsored by a paintball company, you get to pay a higher price for the paint at thier sponsored event, than you would if you were to simply order said paint yourself..

The only way to make sense of this in my head, is to think that the spnsors indeed give the promoters a deal on the paint so they can increase thier profit margin to make more money on the event.

In that way, the paint company is actually, indeed giving something up, and the promoters of the event are the ones gouging, not the sponsors.

In this way, it works exactly like the ballpark and theater examples Doc explained. No one rails at Coca Cola because the price of a medium softdrink at a ball park is $4, it is the ballpark, not Coca Cola doing the gouging..

This still doesn't exactly explain why when they are getting a deal from the paint companies they don't pass it on to the players who are dumping enormous amounts of paint in thier event. Perhaps they are giving a price break to people paying to come watch, or maybe there are other costs they keep down, but use the profit of the paint to offset the loss, or maybe they are just greedy jerks who want every last penny they can get out of you..

Or, maybe you might try to be in on organizing anevent and find out for yourself how har it is to set the prices, 'cause no matter what you do, something won't be right.

BYOP tourney would probably have high entrance fees, and no one would come to play, then what do you do?

It's all a formula, somebody somewhere has figured out how to maximize profits, while maximizing the attendance, and minimizing the work needed to accomplish this. Maybe there is a better way, maybe try something out. See what happens.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:23 AM

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'Sponsorship' is a highly abused term in paintball.

by manike

Most 'sponsorships' still end up with the 'sponsoring' company getting at least cost of manufacturing for the goods.

There are some situations when this isn't true, but for the majority of occasions when a team or player is sponsored in paintball, what they really mean, is that they can buy at a 'discount'.

The top teams and players do actually get $$$ instead and completely free stuff.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:08 AM

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Re: Maybe the word SPONSOR has a different meaning in paintball?

by Warparty

The mistake people are making is thinking that a paint company 'sponsoring' an event is 'sponsoring' the players (i.e. helping them out). They are not 'sponsoring' the players, they are 'sponsoring' the EVENT PROMOTER. In most cases the event promoter is getting a really good price for the paint, in exchange the paint supplier gets the advertisement.

People who are complaining about events that are shafting the player with high paint cost do have one option they can exercise. DONT PLAY THE EVENT!!

Nobody is forcing you to play. We, the players, have the ultimate say as to what events thrive, and which ones starve from thier own greed. You don't like the price of paint/location/format??? DON'T PLAY THE EVENT!! And if you do, dont complain about what you spent. You knew what you were getting into (most every time that is) when you payed your entry.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:33 AM

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I have to agree,, LOTS OF TEXT

by Dingo

Events are not cheap, and no one will ever run one just out of pure love of the sport to just break even, won't happen, unless i win the lotto and then i might do it
But if you play an event where the paint com. "sponsors" the event, that just means they get to name it the "MY PAINT CO." tournament and the players can only use their paint, that's how they make their money, after dropping a ton of money on promoting it and such. hey it's biz, and they have to make money. If you don't agree with their format or don't like to just have to use their paint, then don't play.

But that's only at certain event, only one i can think of the top of my head would the ZAP event in Canada every year(correct me if I'm wrong)

But at events like NPPL, which i have reffed at, i know you can bring what ever paint you feel like, with some restrictions on paint type - not brand- and if you are truly a sponsored team by a paint company, then you would know that they do have certain deals for your paint.
I know of a certain team and sponsor that i can't mention, but the deal was this, for seven man event at NPPL, they got 10 free case to start off with, then they would get 50% of wholesale for the next what ever number they thought they might need, then if they still needed more, they got it for 25% of wholesale, and if they made it to qualifications and placed top 2, it was all free.

I don't disagree that paint at most events, if it's "event paint only" you will pay more for a paint that most times you would not want to use given the choice, and i hear it all the time while waiting in line for the paint,
kids complaining that they can get the paint online for less than half,, no kidding who can't? But again, how are the event promoters going to make any money that way, and if they don't make money, then they won't run anymore events and then where do you compete?
Also, some one mentioned that certain hard goods companies "just give" their products as prices,,
think of it this way, and my prices are guess-timates, so keep that in mind.

prices for the top three teams lets say at a local event like a GPL 3 man in PA lets say:
WGP gives away 3 e-bladed cockers that retail about 900 give or take, but that's retail, not what they actually would get for it, so they are only out what their wholesale value is. But lets use those values anyways

so they are out 2700 right?
and they are done, WGP gets to put their name up for under three grand.

Now lets say some tank co. gives away again 3 low end tanks for second, hell even for first along with the markers, their out what, 600 bucks at lets say 200 per tank.
again another company is out 600 beans and they get their name up.

The promoter, who usually runs a paint specific event, because he/she gets better price on a certain brand than another, has to put up ALL the paint that will and might not even be used.
So for an event with 16 teams, and 3 players per team, lets say each player decides to buy 1 case of paint each, that's 48 case, almost half a skid of paint, and that's only if everyone playing only uses one case, which anyone who's played any real type of tournament knows is not usually the case.
When i played GPL, my team usually got 8 to 10 cases of paint per event, more if we made it to prelims.

So lets say the promoter only gets on skid of paint ( about 100 case usually, maybe a few less)
Lets say they get paint at 45, that's 4500 beans right there for paint, half of which might not get bought right away, and sit around their shop, if they have one.
then there's the cost of refs, your looking at about 100 bucks a day per ref, at least that's the last i heard they were getting for events. three fields, lets keep the ref count low, to 3 per filed, on each sided of the 50 and a head ref to hang out and not admit to the bad call he made that 300 per filed, so that's 900 for all three fields.

Then there's the field fees from the property owner.
SO say the property owner is not greedy and does them a favor and goes for 15 per head, ok now we have 240,
The cost of bunkers i wont count cause if it's an on going event, they might have gained some of that expense back

but you def have to pay for AIR, make it another 15 per person,
that's another 240
Don't forget food for the staff and refs, gas and expenses for lodging and what have you. add another 2000 grand to that

grand total gives you 7880 big ones

all that out of pocket money from the promoter, plus the months of planning and time spent during the event, and having people yell and scream at you for "bad" call while at the event,, all that to just then break even?

There's an old saying in Spanish, it goes like this -
"you don't sell eggs to get eggs"
Meaning no one is going to go thru the time and effort to make,sell or promote an event, ever, to just break even on their original investment, and the key word being "investment" money used to make more money.

Just my very long two cents worth.

Dingo

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 11:14 AM

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You are so right . . . .

by

I ran a tourney series down here last summer. We had Blaze for $45 a case, which I thought was pretty damned good for a FPO event.

The players still complained, even though the closest fields get $75/case for Midnight.

We didn't have big prizes, but there were nice trophies, and the entry was reasonable.

Airball, netting, six (6) refs to a field, just what every tourney player swears they want . . . . .

Riiiiiight.

It was horrible. Nothing but complaining, yelling, overshooting, and arguments.

The first two rounds went so horribly that we scratched the last three dates.

THEN the players complained that we weren't finishing the season up.

I told them - There are a lot of things I can do, and not make any money, which are a hell of a lot more fun than this.

Sometimes I think that the biggest problem with tournament paintball is the players . . . .

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 2:34 PM

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you are correct sir,,

by dingo

We've all been the complaining player at one point or another, but I gotta say, when I complained, it wasn't for stupid stuff.
But some people just complain to no end about the most miniscule things that have no bearing on how the event should go.

Dingo

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:39 PM

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Having just spoken about this last weekend...

by

I was talking to the guys that put on the SupAir bowl up here. Basically they had discounted paint something like $65 a case for early registration, to encourage teams to sign up and pay early. Then after the deadline it was $75 a case. They needed each team there to buy 3 cases of paint before the cost of the event was covered. Our team threw off the numbers since we only went thru 500 total.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:35 PM

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Follow up on my 98 Custom woes..

by

Thanks to everyone would provided suggestions and encouragement, I wanted to drop a fresh line here to say I got it fixed.

After replacing EVERY SINGLE piece except for my aluminum powertube...guess what the problem was?? Bingo. Seems that the rear opening (that the rear bolt slides into to "strike" the valve) had decided to enlarge itself.
I was running into the same problem no matter what new part I hung and was getting frustrated when I thought I'd just see how tight the fit was, since I'd put a new o-ring and new rear bolt in the gun...
That was it. Go figure. Replaced it with a new "stock" style plastic powertube I had and all I need now is to tune it a bit.

Has anyone else seen this happen before? I was sure that those "upgrade" aluminum powertubes would last forever! Not unless forever is like a year and a half!

Thanks again guys.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:45 PM

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havn't seen that specificly

by Anonymous

but it doesn't surprise me. aluminum is prone to wear - that's why the hammer is made of steel with an aluminum insert. It's also why nearly every sear is made of hardened steel, we'd have lots of slipping sears otherwise.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:03 PM

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I was Wondering...

by

I didn't want to say it, but I had thought it may have been the alluminum powertube. And besides, They Don't last forever, belive you ME. The Carbine has an alluminum power tube, and it's the part most likely to break on that gun.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:05 PM

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Well glad you finally found it

by MarkT

I haven't tried one of the metal valve tubes so I don't know if this is common.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:06 PM

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I've found that like Automags, stock Tippmann parts tend to be the best...

by CRySyS

People always want to get aluminium parts to replace the plastic power tube or bolt, ect... and those parts always cause more trouble than they solve. I freely tell people this and it's why we sell so many Tippmanns. Lets just hope they don't go the way of the low cost manufacturing to keep stuff in the big chain stores. If the quality of these guns went away there would be no reason to get one over a cheaper Spyder.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:05 PM

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yep...

by Danny77

Wish I would have seen your post earlier!

I actually had the same aluminum powertube for my old m98, worked just fine. My friend however got it and screwed his gun up in the same way as yours. Ive also heard of others having the same problem. In the end, keep the stock tippmann internals...Tippmann knows what there doing:)

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:01 PM

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Before the "problem"..

by Spike

my 98 Custom shot and performed better than any other in my group (30+ guns). I had more range and better accuracy, and I had used that aluminum Powertube for at least two years. Now, this is not due to the powertube, but the total combination of all modifications...

Now ith my gun totally converted back to "stock" condition, I'll have to re-tune everything to try and get back where it was performance-wise.

I think the Aluminum powertube's failure was/is due to overuse. Just plain old used-up. I wonder, if maybe the switch to HPA awhile back increased the amount of heat generated by friction versus CO2? Heat/Friction thatwould therefore cause the "expansion" of the aluminum powertube.

Anybody have any ideas on this??

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 4:23 AM

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What the hell should I do about this guy?

by Vantrepes

Yea, I get what I deserve for posting on PBN, but besides that, read this thread: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=10044389#post10044389

I have no idea who armax is other than that he posted on AIR defending Free Flow's tungsten hammers. I can see no way my Link Feed could damage a ram, but this somehow smells like a trap of some sort, so I am in a pinch on what to do about him.

Any suggestions on how to handle it?

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:36 PM

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Post the pics and then ignore him

by rob b

They speek for themselves. If you keep responding he will keep baiting you. He looks like an idiot, let him do it by itself.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:44 PM

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i replied to the forum..

by Miotch

i'll quote it here..

the Cherokee have a word for people like armax.. They pronounce it "dumb-ass"

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:52 PM

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Bored kid looking for human interaction.....

by

even if it's bad. Ignore him, he's made himself look bad already and you've obviously got supporters there that'll back you.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:02 PM

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Yeah and it's not just kids...

by manike

The so called 'adults' can be appalling too.

Often they have less to lose than you do, so they don't care.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:16 AM

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Indeed nt

by

';lj

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:37 PM

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You did all you need to do...

by

He is a obvious shill.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:08 PM

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...Damaged Ram?

by

...Rams, it would seem, are rather hard to Damage... Especially by something as benign as your linkfeed, which is just a sensor.

He either fudged up the installation, or is wanting to mess with somebody.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:11 PM

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Did he even ever post proof? (nt)

by Stitch



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:28 PM

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Nope

by Vantrepes

He didn't even propose a way that Link Feed could have damaged a ram, let alone show actual proof.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:35 PM

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Thanks guys, I needed the reality check.

by Vantrepes

I have a bad habit of becoming a little, um, rabid I guess is the best word, when I feel that someone is slandering me.
I had a feeling I had hit the limit of useful posting, and there was this little voice telling me to shut up, the kid had hung himself with his posts, but part of me had an urge to keep trying to defend myself. I;m not so rabid that I couldn't see what ever trap or trick the guy had cooked up was coming, but there was still that urge to keep going.
Of course, now that I calmed down a little, I see that I was doing nothing but keeping the thread at the top.

BTW, thanks for the posts, and the support. Punisher, I was very happy to see the "pretty well thought out add-on" comment. That means something with all the cramped, but well designed pneumatics work you do.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:34 PM

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Glad to help...nt

by

;lkmn

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:34 PM

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I found you here and I will rule ALL pb message board!!!!!!

by armax

ha ha just kidding
ROb


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:34 PM

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Oh man, you got me

by Vantrepes

My first thought was "WTF!"
Thanks for the laugh

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:36 PM

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PBN a vast bastion of teen intelligence.................

by B

I doubt this will affect your business.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:10 PM

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Re: PBN a vast bastion of teen intelligence.................

by kallahan

teen intellligence, HA!

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:34 PM

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Ouch. I resent that.

by icouldbeahero

/17

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:45 PM

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same...

by

15



(ok, well maybe i'm not THAT smart, but at least i put some effort into it)

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:35 PM

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Well, it's true...

by

It really is. (Just turned 20 on Sunday!)

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:36 PM

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Happy B Day :) nt

by Renegade_Azzy

nt

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 7:49 PM

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Actually....

by

I think our (human race) bodies start to decay, or wear out, soon after puberty. So the logical progression of this thought would be that our brains are more capable to process information during our teenage years. The lack of information stored up there prevents the increased processing power from showing through most of the time. That's my hypothesis any way.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:26 PM

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You might be half right...

by

... I propose that the goal of the brain (and the body) is making more babies. Teen intelligence is often put to work finding ways of making babies even with a great number of obstacles in the way.

All this other stuff, advanced math, art, machining, etc. is a byproduct.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 2:23 AM

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'engage brain before opening mouth'

by manike

Brains may be more capable of processing at a younger age, but the wisdom of what to process and what to say or not say, isn't so well developed. That comes with experience.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:19 AM

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Here's the NPS Sales Reps name.

by

Kevin Drum ( ext. 206 )

Thanks, from me and Mike, the field owner.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:03 PM

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Alright, I'll take this bait ...

by

Actually, the ability of the brain to adapt or learn new things does not, in most circumstances, happen until middle age (40s or so). Until that time, the curve certainly becomes less steep, but it's still rising.

That, coupled with the constantly increasing other part of intelligence, experience, and you find that it's truly not until someone hits about 85 and has alzheimer's before they regress to the total mental acuity of most teenagers.

I saw something about that once in a psychology textbook in college. If I can reference it, I'll be sure to.

CasualJames

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:45 AM

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ok....Im gonna use that

by

along with our "cheerleader" theory.

Cheerleader Theory =
One who cheers for the other team. The other team is anyone but you or the product you produce. The cheerleaders "pack" determines which side to cheer for and this could change in mid post. The cheerleader is always willing to debate why you are wrong and their team is right. They will even resort to making up lies and build proof to support these lies by bringing in other members of the pack. Once the cheerleader has put on the skirt and pompoms they will even rush to other forums and websites to spread the cheers and enlist others into their cause. This is easy because the skirt is short.....even shorter than the attend spans of the pack members. After a short period it is determined that the cheerleader no longer can hold the attention of the regular forum members and is soon found out to be incorrect in the cheering or the slandering of your good name. Once this happens they immediately resort to name calling and multiple temper tantrum posting often seen on forums where there is little control by the moderators.

The cheerleader might not be the actual person you did business with but rather someone that "heard" or "read" what they needed to cheer about. Dont let this fool you. Due to the complex way our forum software works a cheerleader could also be the client or customer using his cheername. We have even seen these cheerleaders resort to chatting with themselves in the troubled forum post to help their cause. There is medication for this. We found that one of the best ways to stop the Cheerleader is to use a product called "TAG's Below The belt Bubble monkey cheerleader stopper" in the handy 8 ounce spray bottle. This is sometimes used on cats and small dogs to stop them from chewing items or even barking. The common way to use this spray is to shoot a steady spray into the face of the cheerleader and yell in a very stern voice.." Bad kitty"...errr....."Bad Boy". A less used method is to call their parents and let them deal with the lack of social skills they have taught their child.

I can go on and on.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:01 AM

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Man that is so familiar...

by



I stopped it and banned one of the guys that was giving you grief on PBN, if you ever get stuff like that again, please e-mail me before the twerp gets so bad.

But I do see more and more of what you describe above.

It's easy for these people to take their hate and jealousy out on the internet. It's one of those negatives that goes with all the positives found on the net too.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:27 AM

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Re: Man that is so familiar...

by

Trust me when I say I do appreciate that. Unfortunatley at our end of the industry is happens quiet a bit. We are never fast enough, it was done bad, it wasnt done at all....blah blah blah. You would think that people actually believe we send out product that would make us look bad. This last episone on PBN is # 9 and counting. When we hit an even 12 sissy fits we are going to throw one hell of a party and everyone is invited

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 9:11 AM

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I'll bring the chips and salsa! n/t

by Anonymous

N/T

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:02 PM

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wrong, on two counts...

by DK1

A. Bodies do not start to decay soon after puberty, at least no more than usual. Aging, as it is known, occurs from the day you are born due to many factors. However, it's well known in bodybuilding that the body doesn't produce it's best quality muscle until near 30. So, in many ways, you aren't fully mature until a while after puberty.

B. The brain isn't more capable of processing information during puberty. It does stop some developement of new neural connections following puberty, and that's why it becomes much more difficult to learn new languages comparitively when your an adult.

But, the human brain doesn't stop developing until well into your twenties (nearly thirty according to some sources). The reason IQ scores for kids seems so insane is that they are adjusted to compensate for age, and I, for one, am not so sure that they are entirely accurate anyway.


DK1



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 3:00 PM

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That was hitting below the belt...

by Stitch

16

And i do mess up in some ventures in life and my speech but i am trying to control my teen side.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:45 AM

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Well, the thread starter deleted it

by Vantrepes

He just sent me a PM saying he didn't see the point in keeping it going, since he didn't think armax would ever provide proof.
On an up side, in at least one case it didn't effect anything. He said if I get a Halo version done, he wants two of them

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:14 PM

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good for you .............

by B

really good

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:29 AM

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i have a question about machine tooling processes

by

I have an idea to convert an a/c body to sto style feed necks {the removable collar to accept a clamping neck}, from the base model feed neck {just a one piece pressed in unit}. My thought is that you could turn the neck down on a lathe and then cut threads into it either with a die or by hand on the lathe. My idea is to weld piece of round bar to a piece of flat bar in a tee configuration and then center the new piece on the body so that the round bar lines up with the feed neck. then you could simply attach the body to the flat bar with the grip frame screws and turn the body and jig together. I am very naive abut machine tools so could some one with some knowledge let me know if this sounds plausable, or even possible? Better still if someone much smarter has found an easier way I would love to hear about it. Thanks in advance for your help.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:49 PM

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don't even need to do that

by paul

you're talking about boring the feed neck hole, right?

you can either do it on a milling machine with a boring head or just indicate the center of the feed neck hole on a lathe with a large, padded 4 jaw chuck and bore it on there

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:20 PM

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no not really

by

I mean to convert to an sto style feed neck that takes a collar. But thank you for your response.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 10:52 AM

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is this thing a piece of junk?

by

i dont know anything about digital recorders....please be kind. This looks like its a good value, but the price makes me second guess the quality of the product.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48514&item=3868419691&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

I'm looking for a basic digital video recorder i can tape paintball games with (in short segments) so i dont want to spend alot of money on something that could be ruined by a stray paintball...

Thanks


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:13 PM

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Re: is this thing a piece of junk?

by

My friend purchased something very similar, but I'm not sure if it's the same brand. (It was the same price though) As you can expect with the price, the quality isn't amazing, but it gets the job done. I've seen some videos he's taken with it, and they were "ok." You should pick it up if you're just looking for something to screw around with, but I would look else where if you plan on doing any serious work.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:31 PM

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Thanks JGraf ..NT

by

nt means no type.. what were you expecting??

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:34 PM

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Just remember, Vivitar is the low priced cameras carried at camera.

by Izzy

Go spend $19.99 on one of their digicams and you can see the quality and decide from there.

I myself have a Vivitar camera bought at WalMart and as JGraf said, it does the job. Just have plenty of light and understand that your taking video from something that is made for just taking video....not great video!

...and thanks for the link, I might bid on it myself. Digital video cameras are expensive and I can afford this.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:55 AM

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I have a Vivitar...

by Mudduck

copy of a Pentax K1000 SLR film camera, and it has lasted for about 20 years. In fact, I've had more problems with my K1000 than the Vivitar. Now I'm not sure if that reliability extends to newer electronics...

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:37 PM

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check this link out...

by Jimmi

http://www.epinions.com/pr-Vivitar_DVR200_Flash_Memory_Digital_Camcorder

Posted on Jan 22, 2005, 10:42 AM

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mech cocker for sale

by jdawg

howdy. im looking to sell a vert feed 2003 black wgp cocker. its in very good condition. all the work was done by a local pro shop I have had the pneumatics upgraded to a all red shocktech front end assembly. the inline reg has been swapped out for a ergo from wgp that is black as well. i have a black aluminium freak back. im keeping the tips and ss insert kit for my angel 4 fly. i have a 12 volt revvy with x board and old school pre brass eagle shells as well as a richochet 9 volt. i have a 20 oz co2 with anti siphon system in it good until 2008. pmi 68-4500 with 2 years left on hyro its never been abused it works perfefctly has only seen a full 4500 like 3 times no one around here will keep there fill station up to 4500 consistently. the stock barrel. a nw drop and on off. hoses and fittings. a evil smoke stack feed neck. a red 4+2 pack and medium belt. i can get pix and stuph apon request. serious buyers only no trades cash only. i would like to see the following prices for the items but hi me up and ill see what i can do NO LOW BALLING!!!!!!!!!!!! be respectful dont try and rip me off cuz all thats gona do is piss me off. its a business deal between men so act like one and be reasonable and honest. you pay me i get ur $$ i ship the stuph.

the gun and all the shizz with it = 450
nitro tank = 175
co2 tank = 15
revy 30
richo = 20
pack = 15



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:42 PM

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MY BAD

by Anonymous

sorry wrong area

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:43 PM

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Follow Up Tangent on Yesterday's Big Thread

by

I still consider myself new to the sport of paintball. I played my first game in 1995 IIRC. I played my second game in 1998. Then in 2003, I started playing a bit more regularly, but really got into the tinkering/tech side of paintball in a big way then. A hobby and a passion!

Can you imagine my joy and luck at discovering the autococker-type marker and this forum at about the same time in late 2003! Ask a question-get an answer or two or ten! It made learning fun. I had found a new community to belong to (thanks for having me ).

But lately, I’ve seen a lot of the same argument about this Industry (passion for most of us). The problem I see is that the energies are misdirected. We argue about things that we can not change and ignore issues that will affect us sooner or later.

I’d like to discuss two points, I hope you can indulge me this long read. These are my opinions, and I do not represent them as concrete facts/inherent truth. I hope the logic of the statements I make are clear enough.


Most Common Invalid Complaint or Time Waster

“The OEMs/aftermarket companies are only after selling fast markers so they can sell more paint; i.e. they don’t care about the sport of paintball, only about making money.”

While this statement is true to some extent, what the statement represents is a symptom, not a cause. All businesses are after only one thing: staying in business (and they have to make money to stay in business).

To do this, they have to cater to their market. The current market dictates that they have to make faster and faster markers to continue, and as a by-product, they will sell more and more paint.

I am talking about the major part of this market (there are certainly many niches to this market as with any other). And unless I am completely wrong, between Recball, Tournaments, and MilSim, the market’s need for faster and faster markers is not going to go away.

Why? Because the overwhelming constituents of this market want fasters and faster markers. For every 1 of the pump-and-pump-only guys, there is probably over 100 I-want/need-25-bps-electro guys out there. Regardless of any arguments about required skill, spray-and-pray, maneuver versus area fire, etc., the ratio is overwhelmingly in favor of the crowd who wants the best bps speed available. Who cares about why the ratio is what it is: that’s the ratio.

If you think that if every one of today’s manufacturers would turn back the clock and produce only mechanicals, if you think that would solve today’s problems (perceived problems?), you need to check your underlying assumptions for validity and support. “Because it should be that way” is not a valid support argument, no matter how morally righteous you feel your stance to be.

If you could alter the supply from producers right now, instantaneously and irrevocably, new companies would be created tomorrow to supply the Market’s demand and the majority of the altered companies would pass away into history/obscurity.

One last thing I don’t like about this complaint: it shows selfishness by the complainer. It would be more honest, if not more accurate, to say, “They don’t care about the sport of paintball AS I WANT IT TO BE.” If you don’t subscribe to the direction the major part of the sport has taken, then so be it, but why complain about it.

What I am saying is stop wasting your time. Unless you have a method to change the demands of the market and are willing to put forth the effort to make it happen, stop crying out for the market to change. Go and find like-minded individuals or groups and continue to enjoy your preferred game format. Seek and you shall find.


My Biggest Fear

It is that some uncaring, uninformed, oppressive, governmental body will legislate the bejesus out of our sport. Places/opportunities to play will go down and costs will go up (as if they were not high enough already). Outlaw ball might truly become illegal.

I find this sad because I think this is a ticking time bomb. I say this from the viewpoint that the greatest danger does not come from incompetent field owners, immoral companies, greed promoters, or anything else that is organized and part of the regular paintball Industry. These individuals/companies all have a vested interest in keeping things going as they are.

They don’t want any more legislation then they already have. This means doing everything to keep things safe so there are no excuses or reasons for legislation. Even when tragic accidents happen within the confines of the “legitimate” paintball industry, all the safety measures that are taken, the pains that are gone through to try keep everyone safe, this will help mitigate the consequences of those accidents.

Maybe the industry as a whole should/could be more coherent in its approach at self-regulation/self-preservation, but I believe that there is enough sense individually to keep legislation at bay from this area.

No, the real danger comes from unsupervised use of paintball guns. Kids or adults that go to a park and shoot away at each other without taking proper safety precautions are the real threat. Odds are that eventually, someone will generate an incident or two that will precipitate the above fear.

I’m not talking about outlaw ball where experienced players who understand about safety and consequences get together in an appropriate place to have fun. This part of the sport will continue to grow as some of us decide we don’t want the paintball product the nearest field is serving up. I think that some of the individuals on this forum who describe what they do in setting up and running their own “outlaw” games are very admirable and noteworthy.

But eventually, someone will lose an eye, because they didn’t “know” a paintball could do that. Or someone will run across an outlaw game in progress in a park or field and get seriously injured for being there at the wrong time. Or what about the idiot who decides that shooting up houses, cars, by-standers is an acceptable form of entertainment. These are very real possibilities and my question is: How can we guard against this?

That is were we really need to put some energy and focus into: what can we do to protect our sport from literally be hi-jacked from us.

That’s it, I’m done. Hope you made it to the end. Thanks for reading and I invite your thoughtful comments.

Tony
Part-time Philosopher and 3rd Rate Psychic


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:06 AM

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A couple more points for thought...

by manike

'We' don't make that much money off of paint. The fields make the majority of the profit by a long way. It's the fields that benefit the most from more paint being fired.

'We' have to have paint to be able to sell other products of the stores and fields go elsewhere.

The majority of profit comes from other goods such as guns.

The vast majority of the profit from selling guns comes from the low end guns.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:21 AM

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Wow, learn something new every day. (nt)

by

That’s truly eye-opening. Makes sense in a whole lot of ways.

Do you think this is true across the industry? It has to be, there are plenty more of us schmoes who can afford an E-ICON versus a DM5.

This changes my thoughts as to why paintball gun manufacturers want to make the fastest markers, but it all relates back to staying in business (and being number one if you can). But I guess that speed from a less expensive gun or a high-end gun is still speed.

Thanks for the info.

Tony

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 12:11 PM

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Above message was not NT

by

D'oh!

Slap me with a wet noodle.

Tony



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 12:47 PM

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Not quite ...

by

Our ability to afford something doesn't set the profit margin. The profit margin disparity, I would imagine, comes about primarily because there is little new technology involved in the lower-end markersr -- a sear tripper is a sear tripper, whether that uses a spring or a solenoid. They also don't need to be made to particularly exacting tolerances. And believe me, I've seen some pretty piss-poor Quality Control work on JABB parts, even in my very limited experience.

You save a few dollars on R&D, and a few more by not rejecting parts that aren't perfectly to spec, and maybe a few more by not requiring the material-du-jour. Couple that with an understanding that you have to spend a certain minimum amount to buy a new marker, and you've got a pretty substantial profit margin.

Now, I don't mean to say that any manufacturer intends to produce a sub-standard product. But picture the JABB as the AK-47 of the paintball world. Because things don't need to be quite as exact, you can save a few bucks, and mass-produce the crap out of them. That drives the cost of production WAY down, and pushes the proit margin way up.

CasualJames, the Economist

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 6:09 AM

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True enough (on the retail side anyway)

by Dr J

The ONLY way most paintball fields stay in business is through the sales of paint.

Gun sales (expecially high-end) represent the worst overall profit margine.

I'd rather sell $1000 of clothing than a single $1500 marker.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:10 PM

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for the obsessive baller who has to have everything paintball

by dingo

http://www.paintball-players.fr/detail_produits_paintball-players.php?n_pdt=14&cat_paintball-players=1

You can also use them to illustrate to people what it is you play when they ask you “What is paintball” lol



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:57 AM

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What about the people here that do not speek french? (nt)

by Stitch



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:20 PM

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Look at the pretty pictures.. well figurines :)

by Shocker2k2

Pretty neat, never seen anything like that before. Would be a nice conversation peice to put on a desk or coffee table.

Nick

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:27 PM

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Yeah, I cant read french pictures -NT-

by JSG

.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:24 PM

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click the flag in the upper right to read in english. n/t

by serf

16.1 Indentation: the 'text-indent' property

'text-indent'
Value: <length> | <percentage> | inherit
Initial: 0
Applies to: block-level elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages: refer to width of containing block
Media: visual

This property specifies the indentation of the first line of text in a block. More precisely, it specifies the indentation of the first box that flows into the block's first line box. The box is indented with respect to the left (or right, for right-to-left layout) edge of the line box. User agents should render this indentation as blank space.

Values have the following meanings:

<length>
The indentation is a fixed length.
<percentage>
The indentation is a percentage of the containing block width.

The value of 'text-indent' may be negative, but there may be implementation-specific limits.

Example(s):

The following example causes a '3em' text indent.

P { text-indent: 3em }

16.2 Alignment: the 'text-align' property

'text-align'
Value: left | right | center | justify | <string> | inherit
Initial: depends on user agent and writing direction
Applies to: block-level elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property describes how inline content of a block is aligned. Values have the following meanings:

left, right, center, and justify
Left, right, center, and double justify text, respectively.
<string>
Specifies a string on which cells in a table column will align (see the section on horizontal alignment in a column for details and an example). This value applies only to table cells. If set on other elements, it will be treated as 'left' or 'right', depending on whether 'direction' is 'ltr', or 'rtl', respectively.

A block of text is a stack of line boxes. In the case of 'left', 'right' and 'center', this property specifies how the inline boxes within each line box align with respect to the line box's left and right sides; alignment is not with respect to the viewport. In the case of 'justify', the UA may stretch the inline boxes in addition to adjusting their positions. (See also 'letter-spacing' and 'word-spacing'.)

Example(s):

In this example, note that since 'text-align' is inherited, all block-level elements inside the DIV element with 'class=center' will have their inline content centered.

DIV.center { text-align: center }

Note. The actual justification algorithm used is user-agent and written language dependent.

Conforming user agents may interpret the value 'justify' as 'left' or 'right', depending on whether the element's default writing direction is left-to-right or right-to-left, respectively.
16.3 Decoration
16.3.1 Underlining, overlining, striking, and blinking: the 'text-decoration' property

'text-decoration'
Value: none | [ underline || overline || line-through || blink ] | inherit
Initial: none
Applies to: all elements
Inherited: no (see prose)
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property describes decorations that are added to the text of an element. If the property is specified for a block-level element, it affects all inline-level descendants of the element. If it is specified for (or affects) an inline-level element, it affects all boxes generated by the element. If the element has no content or no text content (e.g., the IMG element in HTML), user agents must ignore this property.

Values have the following meanings:

none
Produces no text decoration.
underline
Each line of text is underlined.
overline
Each line of text has a line above it.
line-through
Each line of text has a line through the middle
blink
Text blinks (alternates between visible and invisible). Conforming user agents are not required to support this value.

The color(s) required for the text decoration should be derived from the 'color' property value.

This property is not inherited, but descendant boxes of a block box should be formatted with the same decoration (e.g., they should all be underlined). The color of decorations should remain the same even if descendant elements have different 'color' values.

Example(s):

In the following example for HTML, the text content of all A elements acting as hyperlinks will be underlined:

A[href] { text-decoration: underline }

16.3.2 Text shadows: the 'text-shadow' property

'text-shadow'
Value: none | [<color> || <length> <length> <length>? ,]* [<color> || <length> <length> <length>?] | inherit
Initial: none
Applies to: all elements
Inherited: no (see prose)
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property accepts a comma-separated list of shadow effects to be applied to the text of the element. The shadow effects are applied in the order specified and may thus overlay each other, but they will never overlay the text itself. Shadow effects do not alter the size of a box, but may extend beyond its boundaries. The stack level of the shadow effects is the same as for the element itself.

Each shadow effect must specify a shadow offset and may optionally specify a blur radius and a shadow color.

A shadow offset is specified with two <length> values that indicate the distance from the text. The first length value specifies the horizontal distance to the right of the text. A negative horizontal length value places the shadow to the left of the text. The second length value specifies the vertical distance below the text. A negative vertical length value places the shadow above the text.

A blur radius may optionally be specified after the shadow offset. The blur radius is a length value that indicates the boundaries of the blur effect. The exact algorithm for computing the blur effect is not specified.

A color value may optionally be specified before or after the length values of the shadow effect. The color value will be used as the basis for the shadow effect. If no color is specified, the value of the 'color' property will be used instead.

Text shadows may be used with the :first-letter and :first-line pseudo-elements.

Example(s):

The example below will set a text shadow to the right and below the element's text. Since no color has been specified, the shadow will have the same color as the element itself, and since no blur radius is specified, the text shadow will not be blurred:

H1 { text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em }

The next example will place a shadow to the right and below the element's text. The shadow will have a 5px blur radius and will be red.

H2 { text-shadow: 3px 3px 5px red }

The next example specifies a list of shadow effects. The first shadow will be to the right and below the element's text and will be red with no blurring. The second shadow will overlay the first shadow effect, and it will be yellow, blurred, and placed to the left and below the text. The third shadow effect will be placed to the right and above the text. Since no shadow color is specified for the third shadow effect, the value of the element's 'color' property will be used:

H2 { text-shadow: 3px 3px red, yellow -3px 3px 2px, 3px -3px }

Example(s):

Consider this example:

SPAN.glow {
background: white;
color: white;
text-shadow: black 0px 0px 5px;
}

Here, the 'background' and 'color' properties have the same value and the 'text-shadow' property is used to create a "solar eclipse" effect:

Solar eclipse effect [D]

Note. This property is not defined in CSS1. Some shadow effects (such as the one in the last example) may render text invisible in UAs that only support CSS1.
16.4 Letter and word spacing: the 'letter-spacing' and 'word-spacing' properties

'letter-spacing'
Value: normal | <length> | inherit
Initial: normal
Applies to: all elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property specifies spacing behavior between text characters. Values have the following meanings:

normal
The spacing is the normal spacing for the current font. This value allows the user agent to alter the space between characters in order to justify text.
<length>
This value indicates inter-character space in addition to the default space between characters. Values may be negative, but there may be implementation-specific limits. User agents may not further increase or decrease the inter-character space in order to justify text.

Character spacing algorithms are user agent-dependent. Character spacing may also be influenced by justification (see the 'text-align' property).

Example(s):

In this example, the space between characters in BLOCKQUOTE elements is increased by '0.1em'.

BLOCKQUOTE { letter-spacing: 0.1em }

In the following example, the user agent is not permitted to alter inter-character space:

BLOCKQUOTE { letter-spacing: 0cm } /* Same as '0' */

When the resultant space between two characters is not the same as the default space, user agents should not use ligatures.

Conforming user agents may consider the value of the 'letter-spacing' property to be 'normal'.

'word-spacing'
Value: normal | <length> | inherit
Initial: normal
Applies to: all elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property specifies spacing behavior between words. Values have the following meanings:

normal
The normal inter-word space, as defined by the current font and/or the UA.
<length>
This value indicates inter-word space in addition to the default space between words. Values may be negative, but there may be implementation-specific limits.

Word spacing algorithms are user agent-dependent. Word spacing is also influenced by justification (see the 'text-align' property).

Example(s):

In this example, the word-spacing between each word in H1 elements is increased by '1em'.

H1 { word-spacing: 1em }

Conforming user agents may consider the value of the 'word-spacing' property to be 'normal'.
16.5 Capitalization: the 'text-transform' property

'text-transform'
Value: capitalize | uppercase | lowercase | none | inherit
Initial: none
Applies to: all elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property controls capitalization effects of an element's text. Values have the following meanings:

capitalize
Puts the first character of each word in uppercase.
uppercase
Puts all characters of each word in uppercase.
lowercase
Puts all characters of each word in lowercase.
none
No capitalization effects.

The actual transformation in each case is written language dependent. See RFC 2070 ([RFC2070]) for ways to find the language of an element.

Conforming user agents may consider the value of 'text-transform' to be 'none' for characters that are not from the Latin-1 repertoire and for elements in languages for which the transformation is different from that specified by the case-conversion tables of ISO 10646 ([ISO10646]).

Example(s):

In this example, all text in an H1 element is transformed to uppercase text.

H1 { text-transform: uppercase }

16.6 Whitespace: the 'white-space' property

'white-space'
Value: normal | pre | nowrap | inherit
Initial: normal
Applies to: block-level elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages: N/A
Media: visual

This property declares how whitespace inside the element is handled. Values have the following meanings:

normal
This value directs user agents to collapse sequences of whitespace, and break lines as necessary to fill line boxes. Additional line breaks may be created by occurrences of "\A" in generated content (e.g., for the BR element in HTML).
pre
This value prevents user agents from collapsing sequences of whitespace. Lines are only broken at newlines in the source, or at occurrences of "\A" in generated content.
nowrap
This value collapses whitespace as for 'normal', but suppresses line breaks within text except for those created by "\A" in generated content (e.g., for the BR element in HTML).

Example(s):

The following examples show what whitespace behavior is expected from the PRE and P elements, and the "nowrap" attribute in HTML.

PRE { white-space: pre }
P { white-space: normal }
TD[nowrap] { white-space: nowrap }

Conforming user agents may ignore the 'white-space' property in author and user style sheets but must specify a value for it in the default style sheet.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:20 PM

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At times like this i wish i had payed attention in French class. (nt)

by Stitch



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:49 AM

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how 'bout paying attention tho the little English flag in the upper corner :)

by dingo




Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:19 AM

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Msg from PaintBall Players

by

Good evening from Paris ( France)

Thank you to all for visiting our website. The english translation from the website is almost done.
We are selling paintball goodies since a short time such as medals , trophies as well as figurines and laser engraved glass blocks.
All our products are related to the paintball game, as we are few passionate of this sport.

We will be delighted to deliver our product to the states and other countries.

If you have any question, please contact us at

votre_avis@paintball-players.fr

( french or english)

We are on the process to create brand new product related to paintball, and we'll be happy to tell you more about it soon.

Best Regards,

ALEX
CEO Paintball-players




Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 9:43 AM

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OT an article (kinda long) written by someone who is there..

by

It is amout media bias, and how the american military has an easier time getting Al Jezeera or Al arabia to show up for the opening of a school than getting CNN types to show up..

Did anyone know that Al Sadr had beheaded and tortured over 200 people, including one who was found baked in a bread oven? The bodies were found when the US went into Najav, and all we saw was how evil americans shot up a mosque..

Who else is sick of seeing the Abu Graib Pyramids?

Why don't we see this stuff, and the dismboweled CARE worker left in the streets of Fallujah?

Why don't we hear that of the 18 provinces in Iraq, 14 of them are peacful, and living out orderly lives, and rebuilding a nation?

Why are the western media determined to never, ever actually print anything possitive about Iraq..

Why do they think a war should last less than two years?

Why is 2,000 dead an outrageous death toll out of hundreds of thousands?

Why does that number suddenly mean we are "losing the war"?

Howcome no one seems to realize that there are more Americans missing as a result of the Tsunami than total military deaths in Iraq for the USA?

Here is the article...

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453389.0680555557.html

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:10 AM

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How long do these guys get to do this before they are actually called what they are?

by

TRAITORS...

What, are they worrid they'll get banned from Canada like Fox if they say anything good about the USA?

Same thing they did to us in 'Nam..

After Tet, we could have won if it weren't for this sort of thing.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:51 AM

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Sadly... its for political gain

by HP_Lovecraft

Lets face it. The left is completely out of power. The right won in a landslide, and controls everything.

Being "in the right", I'm happy with this (except all the spending), and I expect the left to behave the way they do.

They all seem to forget that during Clinton, he nearly went to war in 96 and 98 in Iraq. As with Bush, Clinton made threats, and had a deadline, and sent over Carriers and troops, and did not have UN backing.
The difference was that in 96 and 98, Saddam blinked. Another difference was the left completely SUPPORTED the "almost" wars in 96/98.

Now they look like fools having the opposite stance. It makes it so obvious that its just for political gain.

But, thats how our system works, and we have the best there is.

Nick

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:06 AM

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now wait a minute...

by


You're not wrong about the left switching stances on a war in iraq, and your not wrong about them looking like fools.

You did, however, leave out the fact that the right was against the war when clinton was in office, and once you've read the quotes from republican senators of that time, the right looks like fools as well.

Knee-jerk negativity is not limited to the Left, it is indemic in all politics. Everything the other side does and wants is wrong, everything we do and want is right.



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:53 PM

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Umm, ot myself....

by Renegade_Azzy

But shouldnt these things be on the General page as Doc has pointed out quite a few times?


This, while a very interesting subject, has no reason to be on the Paintball Tech page.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:10 AM

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You are right, I keep forgetting...

by

Sorry Doc, and everyone, it seems this forum catches all from alot of people.

I always forget this is paintball only forum, and that there is a general one for the other stuff.

I'll try to do better next time.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:35 AM

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Unfortunately it's a catch 22...

by CRySyS

No one posts in the General forum because no one reads it. No one reads it because no one posts there. If a moderator could move OT posts over there people would start readng those post over there and post more over there. Net 54 isn't set up that way though, and no one wants to use a different board.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:29 PM

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Preach on, brother! NT

by Mister.44

asaf

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:26 PM

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Not paintball but effects us all

by

Gotta agree. Thank GOD we didn't have a media like this in WW2 or......

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:19 PM

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You expect journalists to be unbiased?

by


They are in the business of making money for their network/syndicate/etc. Failure and death sell almost as well as sex.

I stopped watching the news a long time ago.

If you want real news try a non-US station like the BBC. In my experience they tend to be a little better. They at least show what is really happing in the world instead of only what the US is doing in different parts of the world.

Scott =)

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:10 AM

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I expect NEWS from a NEWS STATION...

by

They skipped over, flat out did not report many things that are extremely important going on over there in favor of things that aren't nearly as important..

The only explanation is because they are desperate to not report anything that makes the amreicans look like they might be actually doing something right.

How do you not even mention the fact that they found 200 beheaded, tortured dead bodies of people and turn around and ad nauseum repeatedly show pictures of pyramids, and a guy with panties on his head?

The Abu Graib thing was repeated many times long after it ceased to be news, there wasn't any new developements, or information to be had on that subject. Maybe they could have seen fit to mention the fact that we found evidence of some real evil acts going on in Najav instead of clogging the airwaves with junk that everyone had already hear 100 times..

200 human beings being tortured and beheaded is not news? What are they smoking? they barely glossed over the fact that they found a bunch of torture chambers in Fallujah, and families who's homes the terrorists had forcibly occupied were found shot in the back of the head in the streets as the coalition forces approached. All they wanted to report about then was the one marine who made a snap judgment in a battle. They didn't mention the fact that he had just gotten shrapnel the day before form an insurgent playnig dead who had a greneade.

It has gone beyond being able to explain it by saying they want to get better ratings, they have passed up good stories that would have gotten viewers to watch them, because it would have made the USA look better than what they have been painting them to be (inept stupid clods slogging around in the desert shooting up innocents and getting blown up by a heroic group of freedom fighters). This is not explainable by ratings, sensationalizm, business sense, or anything else but pure hatred of America. They are actually being the propaganda wing for our enemies. They have practicly enlisted in the forces which oppose us.

This is why I am woundering how much longer are they going to be allowe dto do this before we do something about it. Ratings don't seem to matter to them any more (Fox is blowing them away in that department) they don't seem to change thier tactics. I am finding out alot about how the economy is pretty good, and gas is not that expensive all of a sudden when it becale clear that Kerry wouldn't win.. What the heck, is it worth tainting your reputation with lies just to get your guy to win?


ARRGH!!!

Sorry, I just can't take this without saying somethig...

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:04 PM

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Anybody know Russian?

by

I got these in the mail over a month ago, anbd finally had a chance to post 'em. A fellow that travelled from Russia to the tourney in San Diego brought them over and mailed 'em to me while he was here in the US:



They're nice magazines, great photos and sweet action... but I can't read a word of it. One has what looks like a cool article on barrels, with pics of Freaks, Sceptres and other multi-part barrels. Wish I could read it.

Anyway, he sent 'em to me because the magazine sort of "stole" some of my TWB comics, translated 'em, and put them on the back page.



Someone contacted me years ago, about translating strips and reposting them on a personal (local to them) website. I offered instead to let him translate them, and I'd repost them on TWB on their own page. I never heard back, but it's obvious they like 'em.

Also note the Home Shop Machinist "Reader's Tips Book". I submitted a tip and they used it, so I got a free copy. If you guys see this on the stands, I suggest picking it up- it's full of unconventional ideas and handy little tips. These are the kinds of things I rarely have a use for right then and there when I read the book, but are stored somewhere in the back of my head and come in VERY handy when a future project comes up.

Doc.



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:05 AM

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Re: Anybody know Russian?

by

Unfortunately, the extent of my transliteration skills go only so far as to say that phonetically, the name of the magazine is 'paintball'.

I'll try to dig up my russian dictionary to get the rest of those.

CasualJames

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:06 AM

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Like the rest of my language skills....

by

My Russian is just good enough to insult people, and order a drink. I can do that in at least a dozen languages. Neat mags, though, makes me wonder if other countries also have these.

Ben Kohnen, Limited Pump Paintball
http://www.geocities.com/limitedpump/

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:19 AM

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I found a little info. Also, any spanish readers?

by The Inflicted

The title seems to be "Paintball News"
http://www.paintballnews.ru/1/511_1.shtml


And in Spanish (I think) is "Portal" Also apparently printed in a couple other languages as well.
http://www.portalpaintball.com/webmag/anteriores.htm



And "Paintzone" in... Sweedish?
http://www.paintzone.nu/magazine/utgivet.htm

Man I wish he had full scans of these things.
http://jgnoze.free.fr/arch.htm

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:18 AM

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Hey, I read, Spanish!

by

Hablo Español tambien!

Kinda cool, I never thought to look for paintball mags in other languages. Apparently, this one is out of Spain.

By the way, you are of course right on the work Portal. It's sometimes used for newspapers/journals/magazines names like in English we use Beacon or Sentinal. Your portal to the world I guess.

Tony

Part-time translator and 3rd Rate Psychic

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:43 AM

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Paintzone was in Swedish. NT

by Dwarf

I did say no text, but it looks as if i lied...

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:52 AM

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And unfortunately only made it through 2-3 copies NT

by Joni

nt

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:30 AM

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Not even that - just one issue was printed....

by Linqon

Just one issue was released, although we had enough material for a second number. Turns out all the talk about support for a swedish magazine and how good it would be for paintball was just that; Talk.

/Linqon
(who wrote some of the articles in the first issue, and a lot of the ones scheduled for #2)

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 9:58 AM

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Neat!

by

The full title appears to be something like "The Russian Paintball Magazine".

The "headlines" don't look any different than what you'd see on the front page of any American magazine; "Here is the BKO", "Team So-and-so", etc.

Wonder just how much of the magazine is original and how much, like the Whiteboard, is "recycled"...

Kenn Mikos

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:03 AM

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yep

by MikeK

speak it fluently, but my reading is a little slow...

literal translation from that front magazine:


Russia's magazine
PAINTBALL

golden [something-something] BKO marker

red saturday

comics of the white bear (I think this means you!)

white sun of the desert

[something-something]
Centurio

The comic looks like pretty much a direct translation:
-"what is that?"
-"this? This is a CCI Phantom VSC pump marker with a quick realoader, 12 gram cartridge..." etc.

...sorry about the [something-something]s ...my vocabulary is fine for conversation, but I'm not familiar with some of the specific jargon.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:09 AM

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yea I know russian

by

What do you want to translate? I'm sure that you already konw what the comic strip says. But if you want me to translate it let me know.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 7:40 AM

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Hey I know that TWB...

by Stitch

Its the one where bandit is telling the kid with the angel whats on his custom phantom. I love that one.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:32 AM

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Any idea what this gun is?

by

Any takers?



cheers

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:05 PM

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NW Comp?

by

That's my guess.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:07 PM

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That's what I thought too...

by Kenn Mikos

It could be, though I'm thinking it might be something called the 'Red Baron' or something similar...

I have an NW Comp, and the grip is much different than that gun. Don't know if earlier models were any diferent...

Kenn

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:06 AM

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Hey, I have one of those

by

It's been laying in my drawer for a number of years. I wounder if it still works?

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:59 AM

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I want one of those

by

Just...lying in you're drawer? Thats jsut not right! Sell it to someone who will appreciate it, like me, or any other gun whore with money. cough cough Sorry about that, I've recently aquired an NW infatuation...

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:22 AM

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Definitely a Comp.

by

Seeing as how that photo is right form NW's own page: http://www.nwpaintballproducts.com/MM011.ASP?pageno=130

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:00 AM

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I knew I had seen that picture somewhere!

by

Looks like NW was 'guilded' ( or slash dotted) as the site is now down.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:28 PM

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One of my first guns...

by AndrewS

back in the day. IIRC it was called the NW89 back then.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:11 AM

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think it's a frank gun

by Ken

It was made by a guy named frank out of his garage based of the nelson design. I'm not entirely sure, but I think he only made like 100 of them.

-Ken

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:32 AM

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The Frank Gun

by

Courtesy of VintageRex.com

http://www.vintagerex.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewmarker&marker=Frank%20Gun&man=Misc%20-%20Miscellaneous%20Manufacturers

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:31 PM

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ot: cna a folding palm pilot keyboard be adapted to work on a regular pc/laptop?

by Timberwolf

I have an idea that's a bit unusual, but I tihnk it would be damn cool And I need a keyboard that will fit in a small place or one that can be tucked away easily. Folding keyboard would really be cool for this project.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:58 PM

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I don't know for foldable keyboard but

by

I have seen gloves that simulate a keyboard by reading the position of your hand. I also had seen keyboard made of flexible plastic that could be rolled up for transport (you roll it instead of folding it). And both of these solutions where for PC/laptops so maybe you could search that way.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:35 PM

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I have seen the roll up keyboards

by Timberwolf

and that might be a possibility. But I got to thinking maybe wireless would be the way to go. Unfortunately this still doesn't solve portability. And while the laser projected keyboard is damn cool, it just won't work for my application.

What I am doing is really not ground breaking. I just want to mount a PC remotely in the back of my car for the obvious mp3/dvd appliations, but more for tuning the car. I will mount an LCD screen in the front, possibly even an in-dash motorized unit. The PC will do real-time data logging via the ALDL port at the race track and allow for easier tuning then what a laptop would afford. But unfortunately, in a race application you can't exactly have things like keyboards flying around the passenger compartment. A fold up keyboard would fit in the center console or glove compartment.


I've even considered a tabletpc or touch screen, but cost is too prohibitive for something like that.


Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:08 PM

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Why not just use a laptop?

by Ze

A laptop seems to be able to do all you want to do , just make a secure mount for it , maybe a mount that you attach in the glovebox or underneath the dash and either some brackets attached to laptop or some straps. You'll prolly save money doing it this way , rather than using a lcd screen and stuff.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:39 PM

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Been done.

by Timberwolf

That's what I have done in the past. But, it's too clunky/messy and I would prefer having something that's a little more versatile in form AND function.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:42 PM

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Re: Been done.

by Ze

You could have a look for the real small keyboards , i think they used to be called "happy hacker" or something like had like 88 keys (was the size of a laptop keyboard).

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:17 AM

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Happy Hacking Keyboard

by

http://www.fentek-ind.com/usb.htm#kbmhh

Yep, this might be it.

Still available.

AO

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:30 AM

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I was thinking of doing this in mine....

by JoeC

Small keyboard that comes out of the glove compartment and a track ball and Belkin n52 speedpad in the compartment between the seats . Though you can't easily use the keyboard from the drivers seat. The speedpad is the good part as you can easily program each key to do something different. You can even program macros into it. You could fire up DirectScan or Turbolink with one button. Supposed to be over 100 different functions. I have the n50 which doesn't have all the options but still works quite well. I think you could actually chop the hand rest part leaving just the keys. You could make a pretty clean install with no hand rest.

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=2071&pcount=&Product_Id=157024

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:53 AM

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Rollable keyboards...

by

The guy at the local waterjet shop has one of those "rubber" so-called indestructible keyboards, since both water and grit get absolutely everywhere. He has to replace the 3.5 drive in the controller two or three times a year due to contamination.

For TW's question, I kind of doubt it. I really don't know how well a keyboard puts out a signal, but my Palm folding keyboard isn't a standard QWERTY. It has a completely different set of function keys and whatnot.

Now, I have little doubt some clever sort might be able to connect 'em, but I also suspect you might have to have some box in between that "translates" signal out from the keyboard into something the computer can understand.

Doc.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:11 PM

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I'm typing this on one...

by

I'm the "tech support" guy for my parents' PC (sometimes having more than basic computer skills means you get volunteered for things). After replacing 4 keyboards in the past year (there are 11 people living in the house; 6 of them regularly use the computer), I decided I was done with it and bought 'em a rollup.

I actually kind of liked it, so I kept it. They got my old metal-cased IBM monster.

It seems pretty sturdy (considering it's meant to be rolled up for storage). The keys do feel weird at first - you won't be doing any touch typing without a bit of practice...

Kenn

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:29 PM

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here's one that's even better...

by

a virtual keyboard that's projected onto a surface via lasers

http://www.pc-notetaker.com/vkb/f-a-q.asp

should work for your application

-Chachi

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:30 PM

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that's cool as hell!

by dingo

now I want one.
don't know if i can swing that kind of loot for a "keyboard" though

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:55 AM

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awkward, though

by Freefall

I've had the opportunity to play with one of these. They certainly have the whole "cool as hell" factor nailed, but with no tactile feedback, it makes touch-typing extremely frustrating. There is no feedback telling you where your fingers are (no key edges to feel), and it's easy to drift a bit and start typing gibberish.

Definitely cool, and nice if you don't touch-type anyway, but for someone who types at over 60 wpm, it's just frustrating.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:42 AM

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sadly, i still use the hunt and peck method,,,

by dingo

so the touch/tactile issue would not be an issue, but the it does look awfully easy to stray and "hit" the wrong key.
once they get down to about $50 bucks, i'll get one


Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:47 AM

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I like to stick with tried and true input devices...

by CRySyS

I miss the old IBM clicky keyboards. You know, the ones with 1lb keys that made a loud satisfying kerclunk everytime you pushed a key.

I only just this month bought an optical mouse, until then I was a major supporter of standard ball mice. It's a Logitech MX510 if anyone is curious. Now I have to persuade linux to understand the extra buttons, YEA!!

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 4:02 PM

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Mini Key boards

by

http://www.fentek-ind.com/wireless.htm#kbmw

Nice little keyboards that could easily be tucked away and don't take up much room on the desktop.

One of these days, I'll be able to afford a Kinesis ergo Board.

AO

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:49 AM

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Gyration

by

I have one of these and the mouse on one of my PCs:

http://www.gyration.com/ultragt-compact.htm

The mouse actually has a trigger underneath it. When you hold the trigger, you can use the mouse in the air, no surface needed. It also works as a standard optical mouse. Keyboard is about the size of a laptop one and both have a range of roughly 25 feet.

-Mike

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:36 PM

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I need a tool coating that won't scratch anodizing!

by

We all do. I get rushed quite often and would love to have tools that were dense enough to be used like normal yet soft enough on the outside not to scratch anodizing off. Even tools made out of some type of hard rubber would be great. Any possible solutions to this are appreciated. I am on a college students budget now, so the cheaper or DIY the better. That truck bed coating maybe? Thicker version of polly dip?

-Siress

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:56 PM

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What sort of tool?

by

Basically, most tools I can think of NEED to be hard in order to function. A "soft" wrench, screwdriver or pliers doesn't sound like it'd work too well.

If you want to add a bit of cushion, try that Plasti-Dip tool coating, or just wind some black tape around it. Long, thin tools like the shaft of a screwdriver or the body of an allen wrench can be sleeved with a section of heat-shrink tubing.

Or, you could... you know, take a little care not to scratch stuff.

Doc.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:15 PM

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Good tips...

by

I'm thinking more along the lines of something like the scratch-proof CD stuff on here a while back. Something like that on the tool, instead of the object being worked on.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:30 PM

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you never answered his question...

by paul

...what kinda tools are we talking here? wrenches? screwdrivers? mallets? chainsaws?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:09 PM

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Strap Wrench

by

I bought a strap wrench at Sears once, a pair actually in the pack. I never use them as a strap wrench really, I just took the rubber strap off and keep it handy. When it's time to take something apart, I wrap that sucker around the item and put the wrench over it. Hold really tight and turn. Works most of the time.

The strap is thick enough to prevent damage, yet not so thick as to prevent me from not being able to really grasp the object in question firmly.

Tony

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:49 AM

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wrenches, screwdrivers, small hammers, pliers, c-clip removal tools....

by

The standard things you work on a gun with. Not....a chainsaw. When was the last time anyone anywhere was worried about scratching anodizing with a chainsaw?

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 9:37 AM

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Tolerances?

by FreshmanBob

Well, generally the parts of tools that scratch stuff are the ends (the shaft of a screwdriver isnt scratchin much), and if you coat them with something they won't really fit what they're suppose to. I think the best idea is to be very careful.





But maybe, try making some tools out of nerf?

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:39 AM

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When I was a mechanic, I remember seeing aluminum wrenches..

by

They were skinny, open ended types that were anodized. They were made for working on the aluminum dressup kits for your radiator hoses and such, so they wouldn't scratch them.

Problem with them is, I am not sure if you could use these to loosen a stubborn fitting, as it wouldn't be as strong as a steel one is.

Usually, for paintball stuff, if you have the right size wrench on it, it won't slip (which is what causes the marring of the surface). Another option to look into is to get six point line wrenches, which are made for working with brass flare fittings that tend to get frozen in place and tend to marr easily when trying to loosen them. The key is to not let the tool slip, not the hardness of said tool. Get a good quality set of metric and fractional line wrenches and make sure they fit very snugly before using them.

For screwdrivers, just make sure you are using the proper sized screwdriver. It shouldn't be able to move around in the slot/phillips hole. Anything with teeth (vise grips and pliers) should not be used on an aluminum or brass fitting if you ever intend on using it again. Another thing, don't use locktight on your threads to keep the screw/bolt/fitting in place. If it needs to be airtight, use teflon tape. If you want it to stay put for a bottom line, you can use teflin tape, or a lockwasher, or use silicone gasket sealer. It will hold the screw, yet not take insane amounts of force to loosen when the time comes. Locktight (especially red or green) should only ever be used if you never want it to come off.

Finally, stop hamfisting stuff, jeeze



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:45 AM

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Ooops, I forgot one more thing..

by

If it is stuff next to the fitting, like say the body of the marker, where you are working, you can use tool dip rubber on your wrenches and then clean the actual mating surface where the tool actually meets the fitting with an exacto knife, or some minifiles if you use the rhino coat stuff. I have seen electricians do this, having the entire tool coated except for the inside of the box wrench and open end. that would work, and should be stiff enough to stay on, yet soft enough not to scratch near where you are working.. Coating the inside would be counter productive though, you would have alot of slippage due to the flexing of the material.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:53 AM

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Tell me more about this "tool dip rubber"...

by

And I can't tell you how many impulses I have seen with a piece of teflon in the solenoid. I know if you do it properly that won't happen, but...still risky if you ask me. Especially on rounded surfaces like vertical ASA's, regulator bodies, etc...

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 9:42 AM

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Something like this,,

by

http://www.plastidip.com/industrial/plastidip.html

Only, instead of just dipping the handle, dip the whole thing in, and then trim the actual surface that meets the hex fitting with a exacto, or file it off, leaving the sides coated so it won't marr the surface next to the fitting you are working with, this would be handy for some of the especially tight spots between a reg and an annodized body of a gun, or for working with LPR's on the front block, so you don't scratch the front block.

As for teflon getting into stuff. reg bodies should have orings, and you can use silicone, which is a bit softer than locktight to seal fittings too. I have seen more instances of over zealous locktight blobs blocking air passages (try to pick that out easily without scratching something) than teflon tape. Really, teflon tape isn't that hard to keep out of stuff. I just get sick of fixing people's guns that they lockighted the nonsense out of to put them together, and stripping out allen keys because of the stuff. Honestly, a small allen key should never be locktighted unless you never (ever) want it taken apart. Or you could use the weaker locktight, it would be enough to keep stuff from working it's own way free, yet still be able to crack it loose easily, I mean why use red locktight on a tiny allen set screw?

I know, heat will soften locktight, but how many of you bring your propane torch to the field when the people are hounding you to fix thier gun before you even get out of your car?

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 12:43 PM

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I already mentioned that stuff.

by

In my first post. "Thicker version of polly dip?"

I want a thin coating on EVERYTHING, even the tool head. Maybe some micro rubber embedded dip or some crap like that. It has to be possible...

Sorry if 'polly dip' confused you, that's the local term for the stuff I guess.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:27 PM

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Yes, you already mentioned it,

by

And a few of us have already said it is a bad idea to coat the actual surface that is used to grab the piece, as it will flex too much, and cause more problems than it would solve..

Get properly fitting wrenches, and you shouldn't have this problem.



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:07 PM

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I'm sorry that came out more rudely than I intended it to be. Text can be so harsh.. NT

by

No text..

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 12:18 PM

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I also suggest flare nut wrenches

by

chrome tools rather than plain steel. the chrome pieces tend to not have sharp corners..

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 12:19 PM

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You mean polished, right? I agree.. NT

by

NT

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 12:44 PM

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Ram/cylinder questions

by

Does anyone know where to get correct information about o-rings and proper grove sizes when building a ram/cylinder? That is the hardest part of the design, getting the size right in order to keep the seal while keeping the friction to a minium. Help, guildmembers.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:35 PM

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A start...

by Natural Newbie

http://allorings.com/gland_dynamic_reciprocating.htm

Has alot of good information. However I have found that the sqeeze they set as standard is a little too much. Having the bore a few thousands oversized (compared to the formulas) seems to work best.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:12 PM

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Thread conversion

by Tank

Hey i have a 03 bko with bushmaster threads, i was wondering how much it would cost and how long it would take to convert it to autococker threads? ty

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:48 PM

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tippmann e-bolt / electronic conversion kit mixup (manike or NPS?)

by

So I'm at the proshop, browsing through the various catalogs, looking for some nifty things to spend money on. I get to the NPS january specials, and lo and behold there's a "model 98 electronic conversion kit" pictured, for a ridiculously low price. I don't think I should be posting what I think are dealer prices in an open forum, but it sure isn't the $250 that the e-bolt seems to retail for.

The picture includes the ram, solenoid, board, 90* fitting, hoses, double-tapped dovetail, a micro rock, and a battery holder with two small nonstandard batteries. It doesn't look like it's the sideslung 9v battery that the tippmann e-bolt uses, and it certainly doesn't have that funky thor-regulator-lookalike LPR/ASA that tippmann uses in the e-bolt kit.

So my question is, who makes this thing and why is it being sold for cheap? Does NPS dump knockoff products that arn't selling well at a super low price?
I ordered the kit anyways, but I'm a little wary of what I'm going to be getting. It doesn't match up with the ebolt kits that www.tippmann.com or www.888paintball.com has. I thought 888paintball was a retail front for NPS, shouldn't their stock match up?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:47 PM

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No idea..

by manike

I'm not familiar with it.

You might want to call a sales rep. I'll try to find out tomorrow.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:15 PM

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While you're there...

by

I would appreciate it if you could get a halo battery holder for my field owner, he has been trying to get one for a while but they keep giving him excuses.

I would appreciate it if you would put our differences aside for this, as it seems such a small thing but is keeping him from enjoying a piece of equipment he bought from a guy in July. Let me know if you can get one and I will give you his shipping address. He's A-1 Paintball in the NPS books.

Work your magic, Manike. Thanks,
-Siress



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:08 PM

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Who's his sales rep?

by manike

I'm stunned he can't get a battery cover by asking his rep.

I don't work in Sales AT ALL, but if you tell me what colour and who it is, I'll try and find one and give it to his rep to send in the next order.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:56 PM

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manike, don't go too far out of your way

by

after an hours research, I'm fairly confident that the kit I'm buying is the BSI e-bolt one. The board and LPR match up with what I'm seeing on model98.net and other places. Doesn't answer the question as to why they're being sold stupid-cheap, but I'm not one to look at gift horse in the mouth.
If it's only mere seconds to get an answer, by all means ask, but don't go out of your way for me.

By the way, what affiliation do you have with NPS/empire anyways? I get the impression that you are an engineer type that goes over product designs and new tech and such - do you get to test and create some of the gear we use? If so, how would somebody get a job like yours? :P

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:25 PM

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Head of R&D ;) (nt)

by icouldbeahero

worships

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:46 PM

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Got a link?

by manike

I'll take a look and see what I can find out.

By the way, what affiliation do you have with NPS/empire anyways? I get the impression that you are an engineer type that goes over product designs and new tech and such - do you get to test and create some of the gear we use? If so, how would somebody get a job like yours?

Yes I'm an Engineer, and Director of R&D for NPS. I got my job from hanging out around places like this for many years! and from working my nuts off and perseverance. You don't get anything in this world if you don't work for it.

I get to create and test a LOT of gear. Some I can talk about some I can't. But there is a lot of stuff that is the work of others and nothing to do with me. I tend to do a lot of the top end branded stuff (team guns and the like) and some of the work that requires more complex CAD/Modelling. We have a great team of people here and there is far too much work. I'm not complaining.

There are a few things coming at the end of this month that I can't wait to share with the forum.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:03 PM

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it's actually a printed flyer

by

and the only signifigant thing I remember about it is that the prices expire feb 15th 05. It was a glossy fold-out booklet, with a whole lot of intimidators on the first couple pages and then some tippmann products, accessories, and general good deals printed in the rest of it. I don't want to get too involved in this because it's dealer material that I probably shouldn't be looking through anyways (I'm just volunteer staff that works the tech bench and refs, I get discounts but I'm not a paid employee)
The 'page that has the best identifying info is http://www.model98.net/articlesgtavsbsi.html
The battery covers arn't shown, but I think in the flyer the solenoid and board were shown seperate, which fits with the BSI kit.

I could probably ask for the flyer and scan it, but again, it's too much trouble for all of us. It really sounds like the BSI e-bolt kit - so when it arrives at the shop I'll see for sure. I know one of the managers at the proshop placed a NPS order today, so I'll get whatever it is I ordered in a week or something.


One last job-related question. Is it true that actually becoming employed in the paintball industry ruins the effect of the game? I know a lot of old-timer advice warns against becoming a field owner or proshop owner because being that involved in the industry and all of it's quirks takes away the fun of playing the game. My local field's owner rarely plays anymore, and it's not because he doesn't have time. Does the same apply to an engineering career?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:30 PM

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Yes

by manike

"Is it true that actually becoming employed in the paintball industry ruins the effect of the game?"

In some ways yes. I don't yearn as much to play at the weekends, and last year I attended less events to play then ever in the previous 7 years.

But no regrets.

I love paintball for many reasons. Part of the fun for me was always the equipment. I'd say paintball was 75% the equipment and tinkering and 25% playing the game. I was very passionate about both aspects, and played pro and international events, but that puts into context how I felt about the equipment and why I am now employed to do what I do.

Now I get to go out and play errr ahem 'test' stuff any time I want to, and I get to shape the future of a sport and technology that I love.

I still play regularly, but since getting this job required me to move half way around the world, I tend to try and use weekends to develop my social life rather than want to go play paintball.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:52 PM

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Sounds to me like manike is out on the prow

by jkeyser14

Trying to work on your social life never ends (unless you are happily married). I can guarantee that back home you probably would have been still going out looking to meet new people, only difference is that you would be going out with a different group of friends.

Sounds like you guys have been pretty busy lately. I think you need another employee (Hint Hint).



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:36 PM

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Definitely...

by

"Is it true that actually becoming employed in the paintball industry ruins the effect of the game? I know a lot of old-timer advice warns against becoming a field owner or proshop owner because being that involved in the industry and all of it's quirks takes away the fun of playing the game. My local field's owner rarely plays anymore, and it's not because he doesn't have time."

-Definitely, yes.

I've been playing since the late eighties, and finally ran a small local field for 2-1/2 years. Before the field, I couldn't get enough. I'd drive almost anywhere to play. After the field, not so much.

Last summer ('04) I managed to play five or six times, total, and that was about enough. The year before I played what, three times? Four?

I still have something like sixty paintball guns, and while I still love to work on them, I'm less interested in actually using 'em these days.

Of course, part of that is the fact I'm a mediocre player at best. I was pretty good back in the woods days and early semi-auto days, but I'm not fast enough to dodge as much paint as is being slung about these days, and I never could get a good head for strategy.

In a modern tournament, I'd probably make a pretty good backman, but that's about it.

Turning a fun hobby into a Real Job is not always a good thing, and all too often blows up in your face.

Doc.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:25 PM

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Sure... to an extent.

by

I'm a store manager for AtomiX Paintball. And while yes, I have less time to PLAY paintball and go to less events. I get to do some pretty cool stuff in return.

I get paid to TAlK about paintball all day long.
I get paid to HELP people find the perfect product.
I get paid to sell it to them (that's the big one for the boss)
I get paid to INSTALL parts on guns.
I get paid to TECH guns.

I know a lot about paintball (as do many of you). So I have an obligation to help people understand different products and what they need to work properly (i.e. a 98 Custom with an R/T will need at least a ReVLution hopper and preferably an EVLution hopper to work correctly. Halos are faster, but perhaps overkill.) I make sure my customers know that kind of stuff.

Ups!
-99% of the time... my customers are happy with the gear I sell them and they keep coming back to me.
-I get paid cause I'm doing well in sales.
-And I still get my chance to shoot people in the face at our indoor field.
-There are less Mysteries about paintball. (knowing how a timmy works or how NPS/Empire/Blast are related)
-I get to work on guns a lot and use a lot of my ideas to make them run faster/better... (I believe my Impulse is in the top 1% [or higher] for cyclic speed)

Downs
-1% of the time... I either make a mistake or my customer is psychotic and nothing will please him/her.
-Do I make as much as I want to? No, at least not yet. (can you ever)
-Sometimes I have to "play down" to the level of our customers. And I don't make the big events.
-There ar less Mysteries about paintball. So that newbie feeling of magic is often absent.
-I don't have access to all the machining and tools and stuff I'd like (although I have more than most)

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:32 PM

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but., on that same note

by jkeyser14

would you rather work all day doing something you hated? It's better to work with something you are passionate about and can relate to. That's my opinion at least.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:28 PM

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Absolutely. I agree. (nt)

by manike



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:20 AM

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I asked one of the sales guys...

by manike

Because in all honesty I am not very familiar with these parts and stuff for the tippman.

He believe it is what we used to sell as the 'FA Kit'. It is the genuine thing from Tippman.

He says 'yeah we used to sell them for a ^&*% lot more'.

I hope that helps? I get the opinion from him that he was suprised at the price but that we are selling them to clear stuff through.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 8:44 AM

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Sounds like ...

by

... the BSI E-Bolt , but seems to have some differences .

The BSI used a 9-volt battery that went in a cover that looked like the old Rocket Cock , IIRC .

Maybe with BSI out of business now , somebody's jumping in with a knockoff ?



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:25 PM

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RE: Sounds like ...

by

Actually, I'd think it would be NPS selling off their remaining stock of BSI kits. Funny though, I didn't see the battery cover in the picture or description.

In any event, I should get a ram, solenoid, and LPR in the deal. Worst case scenario, I buy a morlock (I've been waiting for a good excuse), stash the battery in the tank cover, and build my own kit.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:02 PM

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It is...

by Natural Newbie

The old style pnue-sear tripper kit. It hasn't been made in years.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:13 PM

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Are you sure?

by

I'm pretty certain I saw the endcap ram that's used in both the ebolt kits in the picture, I wouldn't think that would be used in a sear tripper. Unless the pictures and the product don't link up. :/

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 1:54 AM

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Hmmm.

by Natural Newbie

Well then again it is National, the picture may be in-correct.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:36 PM

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followup

by

Got the kit today - NPS has a two-day turnaround with my local proshop, I didn't think it'd be that fast.

It's a psycho ballistics eM98 kit, includes all the stuff I thought it did and none of the rest of it.
Board with a switch mounted on it, humphrey H041E1 'noid, battery holder in an ESD bag. The board uses dip switches for fire modes and pots for the dwell and ROF. I'm not too thrilled about that, but at least it's easy to figure out and should be easy to replace. The chip's a PIC12C671 04I/SM, if anyone's interested. It supposedly supports in-system programming, so I might dink around with reflashing the chip before I predator the marker. The board supports semi, 3shot, 6shot, autoresponse, turbo (autoresponse after X bps), and full auto modes. No on/off switch on the package though - even with a sleep mode I wouldn't leave the batteries in this thing.
The LPR looks like a generic trashy one. Hoses and fittings to fit everything, packaged up in seperate bags. It also looks like it has a rebuild piston for the LPR - not a good sign. Every product I've ever owned that came with a rebuild kit needed it within a short period of time.
The ram looks like any other ebolt ram I've seen. The hammer endcap on the ram is just steel and has some rust - this kit has probably been sitting someplace for a long time. The action's a bit stiff but I havn't regreased everything yet. The design of the ram looks like it would lend itself to a simple modification to make it 2-way air operated - there's already a side tap on the return stroke though there's nothing sealing the ram shaft from that end. It comes apart easily and it looks like I'll be able to remake any of the parts in the ram if necessary.

I havn't taken a look at the instruction/install video, but the manual is pretty sparse. It's four pages, with installation tools, important information, tuning, and troubleshooting info.
Of course, the em98.com website is no longer functional, and I'm betting pyschoballistics doesn't have any information retained on the kit.
The internet archive wayback machine (http://www.archive.org/web/web.php) shows that em98.com was live during 2001 from may to november with only a placeholder page, so I'm not sure this kit ever got off the ground.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 11:34 AM

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followup to the followup

by

the install video is pretty well done, going over disassembly, installation, and reassembly.
The thing that I thought was a rebuild kit for the LPR is actually a replacement piston and valvespring for the CVX valve. No replacement valve pin though - a shame they didn't kill the blowback effect, since the hammer doesn't look like it's designed to use the blowback gasses at all.
The one extra part that I couldn't figure out ends up being a replacement gripframe screw with air porting, so that you can run the airline through the grip without modification. Pretty smart idea actually.

They didn't cover up the cocking port on the side and the board is held in with foam, but otherwise it looks to be decently made. I can't understand how the things never took off, except for the price and the need for a shop to install it (it's beyond most tippmann users, honestly) this looks like a pretty nice mod.

Good tinker-bait anyways, even if I'd end up replacing nearly everything to fully electro-conversion a tippmann like natural newbie did... this is a start.

Posted on Jan 21, 2005, 12:25 PM

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hey Doc, this your bro'?

by dsergison

http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/011705/sta_20050117006.shtml


LOL

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:47 PM

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in reference to the below thread, here's a thought and a question..

by

Thinking about the comments made of the US Citizen being wiped out by the Government over total disarmament. A US Soldier is sworn to protect this nation and uphold the Constitution right? The Constution guarantees every American Citizen the right to bear arms right?

Lets say for shits and giggles the Government did try to totaly disarm the entire Country, WHO is the US Soldier going to protect? The Government or the US Citizen?

Let's play nice on this one.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 3:17 PM

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My oath said nothing about the government, only the constiution

by Hans

"against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

I may not wear a uniform anymore, but I was always protecting the people.

-Hans

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:00 PM

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Thank you!

by Izzy

I am right with you Hans.


1st Inf Div.
Desert Storm Vet

(They should have let us finish this crap the first time!)

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:12 AM

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What's the difference in Mini-block cockers?

by

Ok, I see Doc's fastback, Martin's Mini-Block and Longs Turtle..who else makes them?
Anyway, are there any essential differences between them? Is it all minor or does one actually work better than another?



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 3:14 PM

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Well...

by niteHawk

Functionally - most work the same.
The Miniblock and the Turtle conversions use a vertical pin through the top of th ebolt to catch the milled slot in the hammer to recock. The mini is an Alum back block, the Turtle is delrin.

Doc's Fastback uses a "sled" that the bolt rides on, instead of a back block, with the same pin through the top to catch the hammer.

The Racegun Half-block (which is NOT available as a kit or a conversion) uses a back block with a side pin (like a conventional cocker), and a steel rod in the back block to catch the hammer to recock.

The old PTP micro had a long hammer lug that came up and caught a slot milled on the underside of the back block (causing some wear issues) and was powerfeed only (the others are vert bodies or conversions of anything you send them).

There are a few other one-offs that are out there.. one of the Warped Sportz stores out in Cali ha one - it's not an offical "dark" marker so it's not on thier website. That one is a two peice body, allowing an eblade eye to fit under the feedneck looking up.

Performance-wise, they are all pretty much the same - the recipricating mass is around the same (stock) so your CPS should be close to the same. The milling and anno on the Martin I had as much MUCH better than the Turtle I had. THe Race I have now is spot on in that department. The fastback kit I saw was done really well also.. It's all a matter of preference.

Oh yeah - I did a writeup a while ago between the Martin and the Turtle
http://www.noodlehoops.com/paintball/turtlevsmartin.html

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:47 PM

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OT: Free Minimac? Crazy stuff

by

Gratis Internet of freeipods.com fame is now offering the brand new MiniMac 80gb computer free! With new, Easy and fast offers. I didnt believe this until the ipod craze. Proof can be found at http://www.freeipodguide.com
to check it out check www.freeminimacs.com

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:52 PM

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Pyramid Scheme.... beware

by HP_Lovecraft

This a quasi-legal scam. A mixture of old-fashion pyramid schemes, with modern incentive programs.

nick

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 1:02 PM

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hmm

by

yea it sounded like that, but heck people are doing it and actually getting their stuff, look at the pics on freeipodguide.com, people getting all kinds of stuff, with proof, worth a try i guess

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 2:48 PM

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Yes, you CAN get stuff. But just beware

by HP_Lovecraft

All the descriptions are VERY misleading.

In order to get your free IPOD or whatever, you need to buy something (internet service, or whatever), then get 10 OTHER PEOPLE to buy something.

This kind of scheme is a variation on the PONZI scheme.

Basically, for every 10 people, only -ONE- will ever get the product. It is illegal in some states because it is considered an illegal lottery.

BUT, I also know people who DID get a product. So, JUST BE CAREFULL. They can work if legitimate. The problem is they often get shut down by the authorities, and often are run by crooks.

Nick

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:48 PM

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It's a "barely legal" pyramid scheme...

by

First and foremost, you have to remember:

There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Read that again. This company is not giving away iPods and Shuffles and MiniMacs just because they're kind, generous people. They're making money off you, and they're doing that by making deals with the people offering subscriptions, or companies that buy your personal information for marketing/advertising purposes, or whatever.

Basically you have to sign up for things (magazine subscriptions, phone services, etc) and fork over some personal info like your phone number and mailing address.

Once you've signed up X number of other people (only three for a Shuffle, ten for a MiniMac) you get your item.

The key is this: You need, for example, five people to sign up to get a free iPod. The problem being, you can't get five people to all sign up as cosigners on each others' accounts, so all five of you get your 'Pods.

Rather, you'd have to sign up five 'uniques' each or twenty-five total.

It's therefore numerically impossible for everyone who signs up to get their "free" item. It's more like maybe ten percent will get their item before the pyramid collapses.

However, the company still has their magazine subscriptions, you're still signed up for the calling plan or so on. PLUS, keep in mind that, now that you've "done business" with this company, they're legally allowed to telemarket you again, whether or not you're signed up for the "do not call" plan.

Keep that in mind.

Bottom line, it's not technically a "scam", but then, neither is Amway. Both, however, are unsustainable business models- the only people to get anything are the very early adopters, and the only people to make any money are the people who started the scam in the first place.

Doc.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:25 PM

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So what your saying.....

by Repoman

Is that I should get in right away to ensure I am on the top of the "Pyramid"


Thanks for the advice Doc..I'll cut you in once the profits start rolling in! Maybe then you will be able to help out your good friend in Africa get those millions out of the country.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:59 AM

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Ponzi......I think you are crazy.

by Repoman

I believe it was spelled "Fonzi"

I don't remember him ever trying to run a E-Z Money scam on Mr.C

...altho he did use the jukebox without paying and that doesn't seem "cool"



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:55 AM

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Ottman...

by Stitch

If you do go along with that and you do happen to receive a free Minimac, Please post again... I'm always adding to my computor setup.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:10 PM

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Where to buy Intimidator sleeves

by Johnny

Anyone know where I can buy a lower sleeve/ tube for an Intimidator? I have an Empire Intimidator and would like to replace the lower sleeve as I'm not thrilled with the color.

Kind of did a half hearted search on the "big" retail sites but didn't see anything.

Anyone?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:37 PM

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Don't know about colors...

by CRySyS

NPS now stocks them, at least in black. Most shops can order one for you and you can then find someone with the color you want who is willing to trade. Or get it annodized

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 1:14 PM

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I think paintball gateway has them...

by icouldbeahero

http://www.paintballgateway.com/inrsl.html

Maybe for the older styles?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 3:44 PM

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I love paintball gateway. You can get almost anything there. (nt)

by Stitch



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:12 PM

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no free shipping, though...(nt)

by icouldbeahero

mrr

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:25 PM

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Those are Alias parts pictured, bonus. (nt)

by CRySyS

The Lost in Space movie
May have sucked the big one but
The music kicks ass!


Now playing - Dusty old copy of Lost in Space Soundtrack.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:44 PM

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An Idea To Catch Cheaters In Speedball Tournaments...

by

There is a device that is used to measure the wing flap frequency of honey bees to determine if they are of the African variety.
It simply measures the tone generated by the bee in flight and compares it to a "standard" frequency for that type of bee.
I propose that such a device could be used to detect the use of a marker which is being used in cheating.
Set up microphones around a field and attach them to tone decoders set to "hear" the tone made by a marker that is using a cheat board. When any of the detectors are triggered, the game is stopped and all markers are collected on the field and cronoed, and checked for improper devices. After a few interruptions of these games, the players will find it annoying to them and they will by peer pressure stop the cheating by themselves.
Computers could be used to improve the quality of the detectors and still cameras triggered by the detectors could be used to measure the ball-in-the-air rep rate of the markers. A still photo will show several balls in the air and by measuring the distance between them the rate of fire can be measured.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:30 PM

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interesting idea, BUT...

by RayU

The cost to develop such technology to the degree you're asking would be prohibitive. Can the microphone detect the difference between one marker exceeding the limit vs. two markers right next to each other both going full (legal) speed? Or all 14 markers at once (7 vs. 7 game)? You'd need multiple, focused, microphones surrounding the playing field, all tied into a very fast real-time computer to triangulate where each marker is on the field (and account for player movement). Plus, the noise of everyone shouting commands and signals to each other makes the microphones and computer's job that much harder.

Even if you have shotgun mics, or parabolic mics with a team of technicians aiming them at each individual player, there's still the background noise and interference. Even a "standard" sound signature of a marker will change if you swap barrels. The orientation of the marker and player in relation to the microphone(s) will also change the sound signature from prominent to muffled, especially if the player's body is between the microphone and marker.

It's also very hard for regular cameras (film or digital) to catch more than one or two paintballs in the air. How many non-high speed (non-laboratory) video cameras can capture a rope of paint on a playing field? If the camera is not focused exactly at the distance of the paintball(s)... Technically, it can be doable, but not cost effective for paintball games/tournaments.

Now, in terms of using technology in real time to monitor ROF cheating, how about sensors connected to small wireless transmitters on each player's marker - sensing each ball that goes through the feed neck, or out the barrel, and sending that data to one or more computers? The data processing would be much simpler, and the transmitters would only be detecting what is actually going through the marker, regardless of what marker the player is using. Something 'universal' - it would fit between the feedneck and hopper/elbow, or clamp on the end of the barrel. The sensors/transmitters would be provided by & controlled by the tournament officials so that teams can't hotwire their own transmitters. This would mean strict RF controls at the tourney location to prevent interference/jamming (ala Battlebots).

-- RayU

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 1:35 PM

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A very much better idea you have!...

by

Great idea, I should have considered that myself. We use to race radio control cars with generic lap-counter transmitters attached to them. I really should think a bunch more before posting ideas.
Thanks!

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:23 PM

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I posted a way to duplicate the NPPL robot on AO

by Lurker27

With $15 in parts. Search for it, you might like it.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 9:00 AM

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Where can you find tri-color LEDs?

by

Like the ones on the back of AKA vikings and excals?

I checked some local electronic stores but I could only find 2 color LEDs.

-yochi

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:32 AM

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Link

by MarkT

I haven't bought from them, but they have them.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/TriColor%20LED.htm


Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:41 AM

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Thanks NT.

by Yochinaman

ntntntntnt

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:55 AM

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Spyder Threads

by Bender

Hey guys,

I was just looking in the RAT's nest and couldn't see anything on Spyder barrel threads, does anyone have the spec on these? Thanks.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:44 AM

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Anyone ever try to make a Sten gun...

by

out of an inline-bodied marker? An electro Phantom a la Punisher, or an Automag classic, or something using the guts of a tippmann would be nice. Love that bent rod stock.

Would any of you airsmiths consider piecing one together? I would figure most of the design would be making the stock to fit near the trigger properly, shrouding the barrel, making a thick body, and some sort of elongated U-shaped spring feed tube for the magazine.

Email me if anyone has pictures or would like to be paid to make one.

This is a great board, thanks.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:53 AM

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Try here

by Renegade_Azzy

BretG has doen a few http://www.mcarterbrown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=forum&board=generalcustom

used a JTX and SMG68 stripper clips. you would have to ask him about it, looks like the thread was lost

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:03 AM

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I am still "banned from this site".

by

You're IP is: 64.8.97.55
You are banned from this site..... Rejecting connection<>

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:45 AM

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I guess...

by Painthappy

We just don't like you around...

Heh.. just kidding...

Seriously, no idea what you're talking about. That IP is not on any ban list etc.

So I can't help ya. Try going through a proxy and see what happens... or clear your cache, and refresh.

Beyond that... Nothing else I can do.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:16 AM

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Cache cleared, still banned...

by

A few questions come to my mind,
Why is the "you are banned" message not true html, and why does it not include instructions to your visitors for resolving the problem... why is it so "hostile" to visitors?
Why are you filtering IP addresses and what are you using to do that,
and what do you gain by preventing people from viewing your products and services?
Are you still rejecting visitors on that cookie thing?
Am I the only person who is having this trouble, perhaps the only person who takes the time to say anything and stay interested in your site?
Who all else are you "missing" by using this approach to web service?
Feel free to tell me to get lost, it seems to be the theme of your web site

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:07 PM

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Hey, careful there...

by

Sounds a little hostile...

Don't get grumpy just because you can't see the ebay forum

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 1:23 PM

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My bad... I just get tired of bait and block web mentalities.[nt]

by

Look at my site! but wait, you have to dress like me and play by my rules or I don't let you see my toys.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:48 PM

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Never...

by Painthappy

I've never asked you to come and look at my site.

So it's far from what you just described.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:59 PM

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I am not the bad guy here. There are no bad guys involved...

by

I am also not a clever or bright person and my only saving grace is that I know this.
Knowing that I'm not smart is why I'm careful with the way I use the Internet. I only draw attention to the mcarterbrown site as being "exclusive" because others on this forum keep posting things and with remarks glowing, point to mcarterbrown.com.
I only just noticed that the original poster and the person doing the greatest amount of replying are not the same person... see my first comment above... I'm not that smart.

Forgive me for ever making the first comment, posting anything about being banned, I will keep my stupid, trouble-making mouth shut. It's becoming obvious to even my slow wit that some sites are just not interested in 100% customer/visitor/whatever availability and those like myself should just accept that and be quiet.

I'm sorry if I troubled anyone here, I like the Whiteboard/Tinker's Guild and forgot that I'm not the center of that part of the world.

Phil "Squirrel" Drummond
p.s.: now you understand the nickname "Squirrel".

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:33 PM

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Nah..

by Painthappy

Bold = ME
Not Bold = YOU


Why is the "you are banned" message not true html, and why does it not include instructions to your visitors for resolving the problem... why is it so "hostile" to visitors?

It's not true HTML because by the time someone gets to that point. I don't care what they read. Just a one line sentence will do.... There is no way to resolve the problem, so no instructions are needed. It is not "hostile" to visitors because you had to do something wrong to get on that list.

Why are you filtering IP addresses and what are you using to do that,

Filtering out people you don't want visiting.... easy enough to figure out right? I'm using code to achieve this... still simple

and what do you gain by preventing people from viewing your products and services?

Nothing... I didn't ask you to come... and there are no products and services to be had. Really... There's just a bunch of people there now that I can't get rid of

Are you still rejecting visitors on that cookie thing?

Never have been using a cookie thing... So since I've never used cookies to reject, then I can't be still doing it... No idea where you got that...

Am I the only person who is having this trouble, perhaps the only person who takes the time to say anything and stay interested in your site?

Nope... just you

Who all else are you "missing" by using this approach to web service?

Just others on the list... I use this "approach".
----------------

sub checkban {

open(FILE, "bannedlist");
@ban = <FILE>
close(FILE);

foreach $ban (@ban) {
if ($IP eq "$ban") { reject_connection(); }
}
else { next; }

}
------

Ok.. so I don't use exactly that.... I just made up that on the spot so it was readable... but you get the idea. It checks your IP against a list of IP's. If they match, then you get rejected. So you're either on the list. Or there is something funky going on with your ISP.



Feel free to tell me to get lost, it seems to be the theme of your web site


After a statement like that... ok.... get lost....


No seriously... I have no idea what's wrong on your end. I guess it's just not meant to be... try a web proxy...
http://www.the-cloak.com/Cloaked/+cfg=32/http://www.mcarterbrown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:57 PM

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Thank you for the link... results in text.

by

Error: Cookies apparently disabled



Attempted to set a test cookie, and failed.

You must have cookies enabled to use this service.

Please enable cookies in your browser, hit the back button, then hit reload and try again.



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:41 PM

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Interesting...

by Painthappy

Thank you...

So it appears that if cookies can NOT be set (it would be done so as a guest) then you get the "ban" message? Hmmm.... This IS good to know. I'll test it out in the future as this shouldn't happen.

Thank you for your time and understanding....

Also, may I ask what browser you are using?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:50 PM

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This might turn out to be beneficial to both of us!...

by

I'm using Mozilla Firefox v0.9.3 and from the "About Firefox" box;

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040803 Firefox/0.9.3

I also am "hiding" behind an in-bound and out-bound firewall that incorporates NAT and port filtering. I'm aggressively filtering ads using Norton Internet Security which also replaces the "referer" text (from the web browser) with nonsense.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:15 PM

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Or here (imbed picture)

by

*h*ttp://rustyspaintballgear.com/rs/catalog/details.asp?ID_Wep=402



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:22 AM

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Seen one...

by

check out http://www.englerpaintballguns.com/

he has a Sten gun based on a Tippmann.

-Rath



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:50 PM

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ThompsonShooter does some really nice work..nt

by PistolPete

nt

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 2:38 PM

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Rap4.com had a conversion kit...

by LettuceHead

... that bolted on a Tippy Carbine, but its not on their site anymore.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:16 PM

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Actual Tech Question

by

How can I go about testing an eye to see if it is working? I have a Dragun TES that I've been working to get up to operational status (was in pieces and missing the micro switch when I got it).

So I got my Radio Shack switch and it works, but the eye is not picking up anything. If I disable the eye, everything is cool, the gun works. So that would imply that the eye is kaput.

I just want know know if there is some simple test to see if the eye element is bad. So, how do I go about testing that? Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the Dragun TES?

If it is bad, where can I get replacement eyes?

Thanks as always fellas, I appreciate it.

Tony

PS - In reference to the thread before this one, the responsibility lies with those who use the markers, period. Anyone who says different is looking to pass the buck and avoid their personal responsibility. Just had to throw that in here, didn't I.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:40 AM

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One Trick

by TargetIndy

If you have a video camera with night shot, you can use it to visually see if the emitter eye is working. The Sony video cameras convert infrared light to visible light.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:19 AM

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Excellent!

by

Great idea, thanks for the tip!

Tony

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:23 AM

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Some digi-cams will do that as well, no night shot needed nt

by Renegade_Azzy

nt

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:37 AM

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just about any ccd camera

by upriver

is sensitive to light in the IR range. Point an IR remote control at your camera and push a button... you should see the IR emitter sending a signal... series of little pulses on the view screen. I think the refresh rate on a digi cam will be slower than on a video camera so you might not be able to see the entire pulse stream from the remote.


Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:24 PM

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......

by

you state that if you disable the eye everything is OK. can you describe what it does when the eye is on?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:28 AM

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Nothing

by

It just won't trip the sear. It will not register on the shot counter either.

The LCD is on, the display changes as it should when buttons are pressed.

I tried it with the grip off and pointing the eye toward a reflective surface. I know that works as I tried it with my other TES. Pointing that eye at a white tabletop with the eye enabled, the trigger would function and trip the sear.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:35 AM

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Hmm.....

by

so you can force it to work with a reflective background....? Is there an adjustment on that gun related to eye sensitivity?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:10 AM

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No, he can't get this paticular gun to work

by

He's tried the table top/eye test with another TES, but this one isn't working.

I would surmise the eye setup is bad as well.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:22 AM

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Yes, that's what I meant

by

Can you clarify what you meant by the eye set-up is bad? Is that something I could fix if I did it wrong?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:28 AM

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Oops

by

I misled you. I know that pointing a Dragun TES eye at a reflect surface will surffice to test the eye. I proved that test works by using my other TES that I know to work.

Using that test, the TES eye in question appears to be defective. Either that or it is the wiring or something. Visually, I did not see anything wrong with the wiring or the board, but I have nothing to really test that beyond the camera trick referred to above and I'll have to try that tonight.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:26 AM

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Does that mean....

by

You have another eye harness, that you know works? You could try swapping harnesses, and see if the "bad" one works in the other marker, and if the working one works in the marker in question. If that's clear to someone else, then I'll just cut my losses and stop now

By they way, if you do attempt the above, just remember to label them before hand, so you know which is which

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:57 AM

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D'oh!

by

Why didn't I think of that before!

Thanks.

BDT

Part-time Tech Wannabe and Full-Time 3rd Rate Psychic

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:59 AM

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Question of Morals.

by manike

First Questions. Who should make the moral judgement?

Should Manufacturers NOT PRODUCE goods that 'may' be used for immoral acts (cheating). Or should it be down to the user to NOT USE the products they buy for Immoral acts (cheating)?

Next question. Who has a car that can break the speed limits?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:21 AM

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Answers...

by Painthappy

First off:
"Next question. Who has a car that can break the speed limits?"

Sorry, but that's a horrible example. Some cars and motorcycles are banned from sale and use because they are either too fast or do not meet certain requirements.

Speed is a side effect. If you imposed a 5 bps paintball rule, people would still want a 15 bps gun... the 15 bps would be the side effect of the short trigger pull.. just like a cars speed is a side effect of its pickup speed and torque. We could go further into this argument, but it's not the point.
------------------------------------------

You ARE, however on the right track. It's not up to the manufacturers... that's the truth guys... Manufacturers will build whatever they can sell. Capitalism.. plain and simple.

Certain users will always try to cheat. In ANY sport. You could try and cheat in NASCAR... and people have... but there are checks and balances for it. Still doesn't stop people from trying.

In the end, the FIX that everyone is looking for? Is the outright not-allowing of certain guns, equipment, etc in tournaments and on paintball rec fields.


My local paintball field currently does not allow full auto mode. Does that stop manufacturers from making them? Well, not at first... but you see less and less of them now. Why? Because fields just don't allow them. It's not a selling features anymore since you just can't use it.

If cheating, ramping boards, etc gets out of hand... some fields may just NOT ALLOW electronic guns. Flat out... sorry.. too bad. Here's a tippmann rental. Or you're allowed to use this or this electro gun that we know you can't cheat with (for now).

That's how the problem will be solved....

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:40 AM

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I think it come down to the user

by

The users should regulate themselves but as we can see with the cars we need the police to enforce laws. We collectively accept to pay policeman to enforce laws for us because we know that we are not perfect. Unhopefully, we can't make a parallel in paintball as there are not as many refs per capita as cops in the overall population but if there was the same ratio distributed among all the population of paintballers (I mean speedball, woodball and outlaw). Also refs in paintball don't have enough power to really enforce their law. They could throw out of the field someone who don't respect the rules but they can't ask him to pay fine because he is dangerous. He will just have to turn back and keep playing tat way in another field as long as he get banned from there too. I don't feel that rules are enforced strong enough to teach to people the way to play safe. Just imagine if a ref has the right to give 200$ fine when someone cheat, act in an unsafe way or any other thing you may imagine. Paintball wouldn't be a Far West if it was reality.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:42 AM

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Re: I think it come down to the user

by TRB

"" Unhopefully, we can't make a parallel in paintball as there are not as many refs per capita as cops in the overall population ""

uh, you realize that there is only one cop per maybe 1000 citizens right? Probably less than that.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:51 AM

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You are right

by

I found statistics to prove that you are right.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-B/cri_pol_cap

But the main point is that refs in paintball don't have the powers to enforce rules. If we make rules that we can't truly enforce why do we make rules? To feel peaceful because we did rule that can't be enforced? Everyone knows that paintball is a sport of competition and in this type of sport everyone will try to push it to get over his opponent. It's in the human nature to be competitive. It's also in the nature of a few to commit crimes but with policeman having true powers we know that it have a strong dissuasive effects.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:01 AM

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If the product can ONLY be used for cheating...

by MarkT

then don't produce it. If it can be used in venues where it wouldn't be cheating then it is up to the purchaser to use it right.


Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:46 AM

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But if they know that someone would buy it

by

Once more capitalism would go over morality and they would produce it. They won't stop producing products that people want to buy. If paintball wasn't all about hype things would be very different but we all know that the current hype is to shoot 25 bps with a low pressure marker.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:52 AM

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Take it a step further

by Johnny

should we burn books?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:49 AM

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Question of Morals.

by Dave

The difference is the average person isn't using their car for competition, and when they are (legally) there are governing bodies regulating them.

The average paintball player who is using their marker for competition isn't willing or capable to make big picture decisions, when getting away with it is so easy. I hate to say it, because I am or was one of those people, but it's true, and it ain't the scenario players who are demanding/ developing this stuff either. The kids aren't capable of doing the right thing, so the toymakers have to.

And Yes, my Mini S exceeds the speed limit quite well, as does my DM4, and I'm not gonna cry about it when I get caught either.


Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:49 AM

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Competition?

by manike

But surely any car that can break the top speed limit is wrong?

You think the police catch the majority of speeders?

You think the refs catch the majority of people with illegal guns?

I'd bet the refs catch a higher percentage of gun cheats than the police catch speeders.

Sports got nothing to do with it.

I shoot at targets in my back yard for fun. I drive my car for fun.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:52 AM

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Re: Question of Morals.

by Ripper

quote- Next question. Who has a car that can break the speed limits?

Yea but is there not a law enforcement that can throw you into jail or write you a ticket that costs out of your wallet?

Right now pball does not have that kind of enforcement for people to take the high road. And is kinda the opposite. Since they might get more money from cheating.

Jim

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:04 AM

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Whats the law got to do with it?

by manike

Why shouldn't someone be able to use FA or whatever modes they like in their back yard?

It's not illegal.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:46 AM

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Also, there's more to Paintball than the top tournaments...

by manike

Modes aren't dissallowed everywhere.

They aren't illegal.

Why shouldn't you be able to have them to shoot targets or play with friends?


Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:48 AM

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Re: Also, there's more to Paintball than the top tournaments...

by Ripper

Your not even allowed to have a gun that is full auto. Yet we are allowed to have a gun.

I just feel full auto is not a good idea, Fun to play with but not a good idea. Say someone went into convulsions and held the trigger. He could not direct the shots where he would want. Yet the gun would be firing. Could be dangerous.

If the gun is allowing its self to shoot with out the pullers intentions brings up all kinds of red flags to me.

Anyhow, is there a point you are making to this thread? I assume you are leading to something.



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:18 AM

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Your feelings...

by manike

So should we regulate everyone because your feelings say that Full Auto is bad?

Or should maybe you choose not to have a FA gun, and not to play where FA guns are being used?

My point to this?... of course I have one.

I may even be playing a little devils advocate, but I want to understand who everyone thinks should be responsible, and why. And what they should be responsible for.

I personally detest (I don't think there is a word strong enough to describe how I feel) being told not to do something or have something because of someone elses opinion or stupidity.

If you have facts, and real reasons, I can stomach it, but if it's based purely on opinion I'll never take it easily.

And yes, I put my hand in the flames as a kid, just to see.

Lately lots of people in paintball and the world in general are trying to enforce their 'opinions' on others. I think that's Bullshit.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:03 AM

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Re: Your feelings...

by Ripper

I dont think it is a opinion that fa over semi is more dangerous. Basicaly get hit near the eye with a ball you have a chance to be blinded. Get hit 5 more times in the same spot and you will be. I understand your feeling to about the situation.

I feel with all the people who give the paintball industry a bad rep by shooting people outside of the field. Will do more damage with fa guns.

With people also doing things like adjustable dwell on the field, getting there guns to shoot faster while on the field. The safety that is 280-300 is being passed. If on the field c lasoya can knock someone out hitting them in the head. How good for the sport will it be when little kids have full auto markers think it is fun to light someone up.



Jim

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 1:08 PM

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You know . . . . .

by

Manike, I like you more every day.

"I personally detest (I don't think there is a word strong enough to describe how I feel) being told not to do something or have something because of someone elses opinion or stupidity."

I don't think I could have summed up my life's philosophy any better than that quote right there.

I am really starting to dig this forum.

Ryan



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 3:24 PM

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Me too

by

I am enjoying this and see both sides of this have good points.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:24 PM

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Accountability...

by

Louisville Slugger manufacturers baseball bats that are available to anyone who wants one. If someone uses that bat to harm someone else, that person is and should be held accountable for their actions, not the maker of the object they used in the assault.

It's the same thing here. Manufacturers can't pretend to know every possible use of their product, nor what modifications can be done once it's in the end user's hands. As such, the individual carrying out the action is and should be held responsible...although it's amazing what sort of cases the legal system has dealt with that contradict my logic completely. Take some freakin' accountability...

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:06 AM

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true but,

by

a baseball bat is made to play baseball with. A "cheater" board is made for the sole purpose of cheating.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:45 PM

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not if it also has legal modes on it...nt

by Chris at Tech

.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 8:08 AM

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Its got to be the players . . . .

by

If the players can't police themselves, then this game (yes, game) has no future.

Its such a simple thing, I don't understand why people can't just play by the rules.

It should not be the manufacturer's responsiblility to make the players follow the rules. I mean really, how much control can they exhert anyway? They can choose not to produce the fast boards, or make them less adjustable to stop gun cheats, but will that keep that same guy from wiping instead?

Food for thought.



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:13 AM

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Should they...

by ntieHawk

Should they.. of course they will, if there is money to be made, a company would be foolish not to.. However.

My problem with this whole mess right now is the lack of any sort of culpability - IMO (and it's all opinion) the speed/cheat modes out there have proven that to avoid the sport getting a black eye, there are certain procedures that need to be put into place... I'd personally like the insurance companies to come together and decide on new standards on goggles (chinstraps, better lens, whatever).. I'd love to see the big manufactures start putting some money into a professional reffing corps. People who do not play, but whose sole responsibility is to ref.. These ADULT impartial judges would be much more likely to penalize players for rule infractions, to the letter of the rulebook, without being intimidated by the player or their backing company.
Cheating is a personal thing, it happens in every sport, and the reason it isn't more prevalent is that there are stringent penalties on a series/league level... and instead of spending the R&D on new designs/faster guns/more modes of fire... how about manufactures putting something into the sport that would really make a difference.

Sooner or later (and this has been true for the length of the game) someone will be killed on a tourney field during a game. When that happens, outside people will take a look at the game - they are going to find, kids reffing, cheater guns with no enforcment of regulation, protective gear that may not be "certified" to take multiple hits at 300fps, etc, etc... and an industry that largly has ignored doing anything to "better" the game, besides come out with faster/cooler things...

Hrrm - boy that turned into a rant.. sorry about that.)
Lee

Sorry - Guess I ranted there for a bit.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:14 AM

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Easier question...

by wat

Easier question...

Should manufactures produce products, knowing it will be used in an inapproprate or illicit manner?

Should manufactures promote the immoral use of their products?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:34 AM

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Yes and No

by

You make it too simple.

Should they stop making computers or cars? They are both used in inappropriate/illegal/illicit manners and the manufacturers know this will be the case! So, should they stop making computers, or cars, or needles for injecting medicines, or baseball bats, or whatever? No of course not.

The answer to your first question is yes, they should make the product and do all they reasonably can to have their products used correctly.

And of course the manufactures should not promote the immoral use of their products. And it might be worth mentioning that they would probably be subject to some type of fines or penalties if they promote the illegal use of their products.

Tony

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:46 AM

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Oi!

by manike

I'm not looking for the easy question to answer.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:47 AM

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Easier Answer

by Dave

The manufacturers of markers themselves cannot be the ones to fix the problem, because for the most part the guns that come out of legitimate companies don't have illegal modes built in, the only one I can think of is SP's Nerve and I'm baffled by that one, and the software they used could have been alot more effective if they just put a debounce adjustment.

Are aftermarket manufacturers held to the same liabilty as the actual OEM companies? It's not Dave Youngblood's fault if somebody puts an Advantage chip in a DM5 and cheats is it?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 7:54 AM

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With the exception of the Advatage boards ...

by

most equipment is manufactured and sold in a manner that , in itself , is not promoting or enabling "cheating". I am of the camp that says the end user is the determining factor when it comes to this particular systemic problem.

As evidence , I would point you to any of the user group forums where "ups" and "mods" are , if not the only topic of conversation , often a large part. How often do we read the topic : "I just got my new gun - what can I do to make it faster?" ; or , almost as bad : "I'm about to get a new gun , what should I get for it first?" When I used to moderate on one of these forums I tried a few times to point out that the person should use their new marker before looking for "fixes". That , of course , got me nowhere.

The manufacturers are often way behind the forums when it comes to mods for their equipment that either improve it or enable the owner of a "modded" marker to have a real (or perceived) advantage. It was in the forums that the drums were heard (quite often) for such "innovations" as the WAS board. Or information as to how to get the most "legal bounce" out of you otherwise stock marker.

Lets leave (most of) the manufacturers out of the blame game. In the end it rests mostly on the end user. As has been pointed out , having a gun/car/PC/baseball bat that I could use outside the accepted rules does not mean that I will. If i choose to do so I will then be cheating/speeding/stealing/assaulting by my own will.

My $0.02
Tony.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:25 AM

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In my defence!

by

My first car was incapible of breaking the Speed limit. No joke.

...And now I drive a minivan. Does that tell you anything? =)

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:05 AM

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First question .........

by

As it relates to Paintball manufactures should not make cheater products. No other big sports companies do this, so why should a game that wants to be a recognized sport do so. Paintball will never become a sport if the manufactures do not step up to the plate and help make this game a legitimate recognized sport.

Just for an example a few years ago the PGA was going to set some new rules in place for drivers. The manufactures(big name brands) assumed to much and made over sized drivers. When the PGA released the rules the manufactures had egg on their face. They quickly developed drivers that were legal and offered trade ins or out right replacements. All drivers from the big manufactures are now with in the rules before being sold. The big manufactures have stepped to the plate to make the game somewhat fair and by the rules to all. There are still faring manufactures who make illegal products but they do not affect the over all player as these manufactures do not last long or have any reputation.


Second question, my bicycle exceeds the speed limit should it have a ristricter put in place? No because that is part of the sport no restricted speed and it is still leagal to use on public roads. Other race(sports) vehicles are not allowed on roads because they lack correct safety features.

You are trying to compare apple to oranges you have to look at what other sports do not what other manufactures do. (in this case you try to compare automotive manufactures)

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:30 AM

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Re: First Question

by

The first question is should manufactures make products that COULD be used to cheat. Your question is SHOULD they make cheater products. There's a fine line between those two questions, and it lies in the responsibility of the user.

Your question is not the same as the original question and is obviously a no answer.

That is how I see it and to argue anything else is to argue for the right for anyone to cast aside personal responsibility and put the blame on others. Are you going to argue for that?

Remember, this thread started with the basic premise that it was about morals. Morals are based on principles of individuals, they can not be legislated or enforced from outstide. They are about intent and the willingness to carry through an intent into action.

You can not be forced to cheat, you have to want to cheat. If your morals allow you to cheat, I can't stop you from trying. If I find you cheating, I can do something about it then, but I can't stop you from the attempt.

Tony

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 8:51 AM

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^^^ Excellent post!

by manike

And your getting to what I was asking.

Questions for 'B'...

What's cheater equipment?

Is a FA gun cheater equipment?

Is a chest protector cheater equipment?

Are pads cheater equipment?

Is a velocity adjuster cheater equipment?

How many people play paintball as a 'sport'?

IS scenario played as a sport? Is rec ball? Are modes allowed in those areas of play?



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:09 AM

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So What you're saying??

by Dave

Manike;

So what you're getting at is that legal is dependent upon venue, am I correct? Sure the NPPL has a problem with FA, but some scenario promoters do not, fine.

My question is this: Is Safety dependent upon venue? Do you realistically think it's ok to unleash a player with a %100 ramp chip in his gun upon the little kids and unsuspecting people at a local field? I'm fairly certain the field owner would have a problem with it...but does he have the ability to determine what that piece of equipment is doing?? Not at all, and neither do his refs who aren't trained in the art of spotting gun cheats.

From your tests, I don't feel that the goggles really are a risk, but I know that 20 balls to the neck of a 12 year old isn't gonna work out too well.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:57 AM

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Alleluyah!

by manike

Finally someone gets it.

Safety is very dependent on venue, use, and user.

Responsibility lies ultimately with the USER, and unless you want to limit the rights of everyone you can't stop some misuse of anything.

Man, we should ban pens because one was used to kill someone in the movie "Casino".

Of course not.

We may have to get to the point where we segregate people looking to achieve and risk different things in playing this game. Like they do in other sports.

Boxing, when you climb into the ring, you know you are going to take punches.

Now you can box amateur with a mouth guard and headshield.

Or you can box pro with a headguard (you assume a bigger risk).

Or you can box bare knuckle in a backstreet and take the ultimate risk.

It's a choice. You can't step onto a field and not expect to get shot. You can step onto a field and choose whether you want to play with people who might have high rof guns or cheater modes etc.

I believe now that if you play paintball you need to make the same choices.

Do you play with responsible people?

Do you play at a responsible field?

Do you play with people that have electro guns?

Do you play with people that may use cheat modes against you?

Do you play in the old NXL where all the players knew what were happening but were willing to get shot to pieces because they liked playing that way?

Only you can make decisions that reflect upon your life. Make them for yourself. Not for others. Live and let live.

If you turn up at a field and don't like the equipment some people are using or playing with, say so to the field owner, make a choice, go somewhere else. Play another way.

I've just made that decision about top level paintball because I don't like playing that way right now. People can make their own choices.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:15 AM

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While I agree to some extent...

by


"Responsibility lies ultimately with the USER, and unless you want to limit the rights of everyone you can't stop some misuse of anything."

Safety depends on EVERYONE involved. We not only need to make the decision to not cheat ourselves we have to make the decision to not tolerate cheating at all. That includes the manufacturers, field owners, organizations (nppl, etc), refs, and players. Manufacturers need to drop sponsorships for teams that have players caught cheating. Fields and organizations need to ban players that cheat and totally drop teams from tournaments if players are caught cheating. Players and refs need to watch for cheating and do something about it (players should notify a ref). If players cheat and the refs and field owners don't do anything about it take your money elsewhere.

"We may have to get to the point where we segregate people looking to achieve and risk different things in playing this game. Like they do in other sports."

People cheat to get an edge over the competetion. How will this stop cheating? Make cheating legal and people will find different ways to cheat so they still have an edge.

"Only you can make decisions that reflect upon your life. Make them for yourself. Not for others. Live and let live."

We are affected to some extent by everyone around us.

Scott =)

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:43 PM

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That's the old second hand smoke argument . . . . .

by

And I will tell you the same thing I tell them.

Why is your solution to the problem always to restrict others, instead of yourself.

There are two solutions to the problem you pose:

1) Stay, and make everyone follow the rules you want to follow.
2) Leave, and find someplace that is already following rules that you like.

The personal freedoms champion in me, tells me that #2 is the correct choice.

Oddly, this seems to be totally at odds with what most people think.

Why is it that people strive to change everything, except those things which it is directly in their power to do so?



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:27 PM

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Talking of great posts...

by manike

"Why is it that people strive to change everything, except those things which it is directly in their power to do so?"

Can I copy that over and use it on the AO forums? I'll give you credit.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 5:11 PM

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Of course. . . .

by

Its not a question often asked of me, but by all means, use it as you like.

Have a good one.

Ryan



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:14 PM

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great quote

by Dave

<<Why is it that people strive to change everything, except those things which it is directly in their power to do so?>>

There's a line in a song by a band called Sick of It All, that basically says the same thing, and it's a tenent that I live by

"You can't change the world, but you change yourself"








Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 6:45 PM

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I think you misunderstood me.

by


I am talking about people who are not following the rules set down by the Tournament or field. It is not me making the rules. I am just following them and expecting others to do likewise. How is that me restricting people?

The field I play at normally is 1 shot for 1 trigger pull. That is what is required by our insurance. I respect that and I don't use any equipment that violates that. Why should I not expect everyone around me to do the same?

If the field allows something I don't want to play against I would go to a different field or schedule a private game.

I really don't care if people use FA (incidentally I have an AT85 that is FA), ramping, or anything else. I just want to know about it ahead of time so I know what to expect on the field and wear appropriate safety equipment.


"Why is it that people strive to change everything, except those things which it is directly in their power to do so?"

I couldn't agree more. That is wonderful quote. I really don't know how you got this from my post, though. I was saying that everyone must make their own decision not to cheat and not to tolerate cheating if we want it to really stop. I can't force anyone but myself to make that decision. I can take a cheater off the field (at my home field) or point them out to a ref. That is within my power. I can't force them not to cheat. They have to decide that for themselves.

Scott =)

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:36 AM

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I may have misunderstood your intentions . . .

by

But if the field is not doing anything about it, they are allowing the modes through apathy.

At which point you should simply pack up, and leave, right after loudly telling them exactly why you are leaving.

I have seen that a lot, both in racing and paintball alike. They have rules on the books, but no one ever inforces them, so they might as well not be there.

IMO, that's just as bad, if not worse, than just declaring "anything goes" outright.



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 11:17 AM

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I don't patronize apathetic fields twice.

by


I have been to a couple of fields with Refs who don't care about enforcing the rules. I don't go back to those fields. There are other fields more deserving of my money.

Scott =)

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:43 AM

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Damn, that's two great posts in one day! NT

by

I said no text fool!



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:13 PM

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paintball in general is a game not a sport .........

by B

There is no organizing body in place to set rules until there is it will never be a sport. There is only a short series and local rules no nation or international rules.

Any equipment intended to give the user an unfair advantage is cheater equipment. Padding equipment for the express use on inducing bounces is cheating no matter the type of game being played in paintball. I only ware pads on my knees as they are old and damaged and have never had an induced bounce. FA as I see it is not needed as it only takes one hit to be out unless the base rules stray from that there is no need and is a safety risk to others.( it can be considered assault)

Case in point the new mask from v-force it actually claims to induce more bounces. This mask should be banned just on the premise of the the way it is being marketed. There should be no room allowed for cheater products the game. Paintball needs a good house cleaning, everyone complains but no one is willing to put up with a set of rules and the fact that some things will be banned from legitimate play.

It is a manufactures moral obligation to improve the game not let it turn into a cheaters paradise as it is now.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:18 AM

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Paintball will always be both if...

by manike

If it ever becomes a 'real sport' it will also be a game to many. It won't be just a sport.

And as for 'expressed use'. Good definition, and holds up against a very small percentage of the equipment used for cheating.

The majority has other purposes but is misused for cheating. How do you deal with that?

Pads have a legitimate use, but have to be one of the biggest cheats at the same time.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:21 AM

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Another question...

by manike

Is inducing bounces against the rules?

I've never seen any rule that broad.

I've seen rules that say you can't leave your shirt out, and you can't have a neoprene hopper cover. But never one that said you couldn't induce bounces.

I need to stay off the pie's, my belly could definitely induce bounces.





(Yeah I've been playing Devils advocate, but I really want to find out what people think and why. And why there is so often a conflict with other everyday life situations.)

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:45 AM

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Black and white to me .............

by B

if you wear elbow pads just for bounces and never dive that is cheating down to the base core of the game.

I see what you are doing I just wish I had more time to prepare as I think O could get my statements to be better understood.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:53 AM

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I agree completely....

by manike

"if you wear elbow pads just for bounces and never dive that is cheating down to the base core of the game."

Absolutely.



But how does the manufacturer know what it will be used for?

Geddit?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:18 PM

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The manufacturer knows good and well they do not wear blinders.............

by B

There are materials that is a bit harder but still will absorb a heavy impact.

The manufactures are not angels and never will be until the players stand up.



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:28 PM

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I agree manufacturers aren't angels...

by manike

But my whole point is, that there is no 'definitive' answer to any of these questions.

It's all just opinion. If there were definitive criteria it would be much easier to point out products that were in violation.

But then unless someone agrees to the rules, there can't be any violation.

FA is legal in rec, not in tournament. It HAS to be enforced at the end point, or you stop innocent people who are doing nothing wrong.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:35 PM

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Manufacturers are Devils neither

by

This may sound evil, but here goes: the Manufacturers are a business (and they provide jobs and livelyhoods for many people in the process of making a profit to stay in business).

They know there are materials that is a bit harder but still will absorb a heavy impact. And if they make that item, it won't sell as well and they will lose business. The other company that makes the softer ones will take the business and move forward.

Who is at fault here? Not the first business, hell, they are headed out of business. The second company? You may say yes, but the is not correct. The fault lies with the buyers. It's their dollars that vote what should and is made.

What happens when no one makes soft pads anymore for paintball? Well, there are volleyball pads, or home made ones. Bottomline, it's the end-user who is making the decision on what to get, what to use, and how to use it.

Any other argument is ignoring the individuals right to choose either good or bad. Not holding them accountable and blaming the producers is counter-productive.

Tony

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:43 PM

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Its not their job to police the rules . . . .

by

Plain and simple. Its not the manufacturer's job to make the rules, or see to it that people follow them. They can't be expected to make only products that conform to a specific series' rules, however, on the flipside, they cannot whine too loudly when a series decides to outlaw some of their products.

I can't count the number of race car parts out there that are no legal for use on an IMCA Modifed, but are just fine when used on a UMP Modifed (two VERY similar dirt race cars, in fact, unless you ran in one or both of those series, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between the cars). Its not Bassett's fault that their Superlight Series of steel wheels are not IMCA legal. UMP doesn't care, nor does a host of other sanctioning bodies. If we were to apply the same argument to this situation as you used above, Bassett should only make steel wheels that weigh at least 19lbs, and bear the IMCA sticker ('cause the Superlights look more or less like the IMCA wheels, thus they could be used to cheat).

Its all in the application, or the end use. The manufacturer is not and should not be responsible for making sure that no one cheats with their products.

When you have a sport (or game) that has as wide a spread of variations as paintball (or racing) does, there is simply no way to make sure you sell products that cannot be used to break any rules in any series.



Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 4:56 PM

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Safety is EVERYONES responsibility.

by


First Answer:

Everyone should make the moral judgement.

Second Answer:

No offense, but this is a really dumb question. By that argument, no one could manufacture anything. Paintball players would have to play naked on a wide open field without any equipment. Not really paintball then, is it...

Next Answer:

If you have a car that can't break the speed limit, you might as well walk. With current technology, anyway. To be of any use your car would have to know the speed limit and not allow you to go faster. Otherwise you would have to make a car that couldn't go faster than the LOWEST speed limit. That would be in the 5-10mph range. What use would that be?



The real question is:

Should Manufacturers not produce things that are made specifically to do immoral acts?

Following your example:

Should car manufacturers add devices to cars to make it easier to run down pedestrians?



Scott =)

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:05 AM

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Close... but no Cigar.

by manike

I'll take your top points.

And I agree but sometimes dumb answers take a lot of getting to.

But your last analogy is a bit off. It would be acceptable if no cars could go over the top speed limit, but yet they can... why?

And I could argue that car manufacturers are making it easier to run down pedestrians... after all handling is better, vision is better and the cars can go quicker, so if someone DID want to run down a pedestrian it would be easier to use a new car than one made in 1950 wouldn't it?

Damn we should ban new cars because it's easier for people to use them for immoral acts... (see where I am going? )

And

"The real question is:

Should Manufacturers not produce things that are made specifically to do immoral acts?"

Is not what I asked.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:21 AM

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I got your Cohiba right here...

by

Different cars serve different uses...

A towing vehicle or 4x4 has other uses for it's power rather than speed. Most of which are legal. Even sports cars have legit outlets for their speed. I have many friend that are weekend racers.

Improved vision and handling can easily be looked at as suppliments to safety. They allow us to see a potential accident sooner, and to avoid it easier.

For the most part no auto manufacturer goes out of the way to hide the fact that their product can easily attain illegal speeds.

I can't find any application of a cheater board that makes paintball safer. It in fact exists to covertly operate outside of the rules.

Most of them are illegal for pro tourney purposes, but they are disguised to look like legal product.

Most rec fields have a semi only rule. Most insurance policies demand it.

Cheater boards are for cheating. They are designed and marketed for that purpose.



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:30 PM

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Again...

by manike

I wasn't asking about 'cheater boards'.

I was asking about products that might be used for cheating.

It's a subtle difference in the definition, but a big difference in the product.

As so kindly pointed out, and what I was getting to, is that almost anything can be used for cheating.

And not everything that people want banned because of cheating, IS only used for cheating.



Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 5:27 AM

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Should car manufacturers make radar/laser jamming cars?

by

I think that's a more accurate question to compare ramping guns to automobiles.

Now stick with me Manike (and others) the last line is important

This imaginary vehicle is built to look like it's going a legal speed to any detection methods, but it is in fact going a much faster speed than the radar gun is telling the officer. The officer can see you're doing 60 in a 35, but now he has to prove that w/o the means he's been given (radar gun)

The ramping gun is built to look like it's true semi-auto and going a legal speed (as fast as your fingers can fly), but it is in fact adding shots faster than your fingers can power it. The ref can see you shooting as fast as you can, but now he has to prove you're gun is going faster than you are shooting w/o the means he's been given (bps recording chrono / trigger robot)

Now make both of those features situations "features" that you can enable or disable jumpers...

Now have a few manufacturers make "cheater" systems that look legal and disabled, but still activate their abilities...


Can you drive your jamming car around your house and have all sorts of fun at normally illegal speeds, but while maintaining an outwardly legal appearance to a radar gun? Yes...it's your property, so do what you want on it.

Can you take that car on the road legally? HELL NO...there are laws about jammers in most states (if not all by now)...do people do it, sadly that's still a yes

Can you shoot your ramping gun at home? Yes...On a field? Not if there are rules against it...does it happen? Sadly, yes it does...


OK, who makes your "stealth" car? Ford, Chevrolet, Mercedes, any name you've ever heard of? NO...why don't they? They dont make it because it's illegal in the situation it will commonly be used in, and they have to answer to the police and any citizens involved in accidents due to these cars speeding into them.

Ofcourse some companies make radar jammers as aftermarket accessories. They don't work exactly like the features of the imaginary car described above (or very well at all). These companies make something that the users know is illegal, and when pulled over the users toss it in the glove box. The users buy it with the intent to cheat...

Who makes your cheating paintball gun? In an ideal paintball market it'll be just the tiny shops like AdvantagePB, but in reality it's some of the big names. They make it because they don't have to answer to the refs, field operators, or guys on the receiving end.

Ofcourse some companies will always make cheater boards. They'll have secret enable/disable codes and be used to sneak onto fields that disallow them. A FEW will be used only as a novelty in back yards alone, but most will obviously be used at fields where they aren't allowed


IF, the big manufacturers had to answer to the refs, field operators, and guys on the receiving end then they would NOT make boards that are capable of ramping, buffering, rebounding, or any other mode that deliberately adds shots faster than you can pull.
(The line is blurred by debounce settings that are supposed to allow users to get their guns as fast as legally possible without cheating. Sadly they are usually turned down too far and used to add shots)

To answer your questions:

1. Who should make the judgement? The users should, and do, make the judement call as to whether or not they cheat. Manufacturers should look out for their customers; even those on the receiving end, and in doing so should not give easy access to these modes.

The last time I looked at the 2005 lineup of cars they didn't have a magic switch that made them report 35 to radar guns. They don't have that switch because the users simply, and sadly, CANNOT be trusted NOT to use it in undesignated areas.

The little cheater/radar jammer shops will always make products that are blatantly illegal, but they do so at the cost of their reputations as upstanding businesses. Any paintball manufacturer that cares about the people in front of the barrel or running the field SHOULD NOT produce these "features"

2. Who has a car that can break the limit and say it's not?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 9:51 AM

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Turning the cheat on and off...

by manike

Whats the difference to turning a cheat(or mode) on and off, and having an accelerator peddle that you can push further, or pull back from?

Whats the difference between turning a jamming signal on and off, and speeding or not speeding?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 10:34 AM

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The difference is...

by

Speed limits aren't always the same, but enforcment is. In other words, your accelerator allows you to exceed the speed limit here if you go there, where the limit is higher. However, the jammer has only one function, a countermeasure to the enforcment of the law.

Likewise, I see no problem with a product that allows you violate paintball rules like FA, because maybe just maybe you go to a field that allows FA. What I can't not agree with is a product feature designed to mislead refs when they inspect the gun. This feature has no moral or legitimate use.

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:24 AM

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But why can I still go over 75?

by manike

There are no speed limits higher than 75mph are there?

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 11:27 AM

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Intent, purpose and thoughts thereof

by

Is the intent of the object to violate the rules and standards in the situation it is in then it should be deemed illegal.

Can your car go over 75mph? Most can, but by the same token how many cars have restrictor chips, first day I drove the new minivan I noticed at about 95 mph it started to act oddly and when it hit 100 it was a wall and dropped the revs down until it hit 90mph. That is a manufacturer installed restriction. If I wanted the option to go faster I could by buying 3rd party products that would allow me in the use of select markets, ie if for some reason I went MiniVan hot rodding.

Take for instance paintball gun manufacturers , make the restrictor at 15-20 bps, if they want they can buy an aftermarket circuit board. This would be an example of self management. Unfortunatly safety may sell in cars but it does not sell paintball markers. Speed, flash and glitz sell markers these days, and to an extent has always. There is no outside entity that privatly tests paintball equiptment to see if it meets certain standards and then releases a report. Things like if I take a marker by the barrel and swing it at a telephone pole what will break first and does it accept acceptable impact before catastrophic failure.

I think what most people get at is the fact that a nuetral 3rd party would be the answer, even if it started with a few people who in their spare time analyzed products and conducted tests such as the 800 fps ball bearing test it would be a start and might create momentum. And sadly manike as long as your employer is NPS there will be valid concerns about the validity of the tests. No offense. Even then the tests might only gain exposure when it is noticed by the Insurance people and they start adding their weight behind it.

So to answer your original question its a situational rule at this point, everyone is trying to get to every market so it makes it hard for the big boys to target a specific market with a specific product type. Furthermore there is little validation on the field end of rules of markers and enforcement. If you have 20 15-40 year old people anxiously waiting to get on the field and your main concern is move em as fast as through as possible then you will never be safety and standard oreinted. If the fields as a whole are mandated and if a third party entity appeared and started releasing some guidelines and manufacturers started focusing on specific product lines for specific areas then we might see some real "self" regulation and advancement. IE if tournament APBL (just a name I made up) regulated that only certified markers that could not shoot over 15BPS, had a bounce factor of X, and could only shoot at a maximum of 300 FPS and offered competitive prizes and was large enough then you might see a demand instead of people asking for the fastest they would ask for the best for their league type. Until then people will generally only want one thing, the fastest...

Az

Posted on Jan 18, 2005, 12:25 PM

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Some places have (or at least, had) no speed limit.

by

For a while there in Montana, on certain highways during daylight hours there was no limit. I think that has since been changed back, but it's an example of where you could legitimately use your whole speedometer. It's not the speed (of gun or car), it's the application.

That having been said, I agree with the others that have said they have no problems with guns being able to bounce til the cows come home, or ramp BPS, or do full auto, because you could find situations where those features are allowed. It's the players' responsibility to use them appropriately. Modes designed to hide those features while simultaneously letting them be used only serve to undermine rules. You're either using the features where they are allowed, or you're not. If they are allowed, there's no reason to hide them. If they aren't, by hiding them you are deliberately cheating.



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 2:51 AM

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So, it would be okay then if...

by icouldbeahero

I went to a field and told everyone I had a board capable of cheating, but told them to trust me that I won't use it?

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 3:05 AM

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Isn't that what just about everyone is currently doing? NT

by

NT

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:41 AM

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It would be ok...

by

If you really didn't use the features that were against the rules. Whether they trust you or not would be up to the field and refs.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 5:59 AM

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And there's always private property and tracks.

by

You can easily find a legal situation where you can go fast.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 4:42 AM

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I wish it were that easy...

by manike

I drove the vette to work today. Boy do I love that thing.

I didn't break ANY speed limits. (Damn good job too as I went past a two cop cars and my detector was forgotten in my 'winter' vehicle).

But it was still fun to drive and a blast to be in.

I wish finding private places to drive it was easier.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 6:36 AM

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I wish it were that easy...

by Dave

I'm pretty sure Limerock in CT has open track days, for car clubs etc. I pretty much exceed the speed limit every time I drive and I'm astounded that I only have one speeding ticket in my life. I had a cop yell at me from his car one night that "this isn't the rally of Hauppauge, slow down"



Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 9:39 AM

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It was a big mistake...

by manike

It started to snow and I only just got the vette home before it was really nasty.

I cracked it sideways twice, both at under 2000 revs. I let cruise control work the throttle after that.

Even the drive back in my AWD Infinity was scary. ABS was going crazy, I four wheel slid into the car park (at about 5-10mph max), and could only just stop at two intersections that I drove up to REALLY slowly.

And there were a huge number of accidents already.

I'm NOT looking forward to the drive home.

Posted on Jan 19, 2005, 10:07 AM

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That sounds like normal weather here in MN. ;) <nt>

by

No Text. Really. There is nothing here.

Posted on Jan 20, 2005, 7:45 AM

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The difference is external appearance to authorities

by

Pushing the accelerator on a vehicle until you break the speedlimit is allowable. It is also easily verified by an officer with the standard equipment available for speed regulation (radar gun). By turning on a jamming mode you are circumventing the officer's ability to check your speed.

A ramping gun with the ability to have it's mode enabled or disabled is OK as long as it is fully disclosed. A car comes with the full understanding that it can easily achieve speeds over the legal limit. The responsibility is on the user to keep it from breaking the speed limit.

Yes this means that in the end the responsibility is on the user to regulate themselves, BUT that does not mean the industry should feel free to adjust spedometers so that they subtract a little to make their car seem faster at the same speed.

I feel like you're trying to set a trap for me and get me to say "it's the user's responsibility, not the manufacturer," but the manufacturer has a baseline responsibility to provide an accurate spedometer and a car without any clandestine jamming measures so that speed may be accurately measured by officials and controlled by the user.

A ramping gun should lay out exactly how it's algorithm will add shots, AND should have an obvious means of disclosing that it is adding shots to officials.

No one would mind radar jamming cars if they had a bullhorn that said,"This car is currently jamming your attempts to monitor it." Then ofcourse there'd be no reason for the jammer either.

Ful