Now, I may read this back sometime later and kick myself and cry...
But.
I'd just written a post on HH about how loopy I was feeling at the moment, snoopy around looking for something - anything that might mean she was having an A. And finding nothing.
Then I read another couple of posts about people having NC broken. And then a reply about how people have felt like this only to find out the WS was having an EA or similar but just v good at hiding it.
Now those of you who remember my posts from the start a couple of months back, will remember that NC was a bit weird for me - she has never agreed on it. It has kind of just happened in the end, although there is still a slight contact, but not 1-on-1 and not other than in person and she tells me about it.
It has occurred to me that this might not be a bad thing (I'm cringing as I write this, because it could so easy come back and bite me in the ass, but I'll continue) because I KNOW when he is around - I know what the contact is. In effect I'm saying better that she has a contact level that she can stick to, than pretend to do something she can't. And once I gave up trying to force NC, and instead just wanted to know whenever there was contact, she started to reduce the contact anyway (she also imposed a temporary NC on herself for my benefit).
I have to get ready for work now, but I wanted to take time to tell you that a remorseful WS WANTS us to feel free to check--they don't call it snooping when they are remorseful!--whenever we feel the need. A person who is hiding nothing has nothing to hide!
In fact, my H felt very guilty for lying/hiding info from me a year ago when he was planning a surprise weekend away for us. Our daughters knew and gave their blessing to the trip, but he felt quite guilty even though it was a trip to surprise me!
When you feel free to check, you check and soon come to see that you have no need any longer to check. It's the WS who resent our checking, get angry, deflect, etc. that we need to worry about and need to check on the most.
I'm sorry you are hurting. You are not loopy, just hurt.
Except you are forgetting the part where snooping reminds the WS of the A and that causes them lots of hurt.
In my wifes case this means that she will often react poorly initially, but then realises that it is neccessary and there is nothing to hide, however she will be very upset by it.
My H wants to earn his right back to having "space". He wants his own private place. I think he's delusional to think he's going to get that very soon. He can have the garage, but he can't have a secret e-mail, credit card, bank account, telephone, and unaccounted for time. We're married. He shouldn't want it and he's going to have to learn the joys of working on the marriage as a partnership instead of as two individuals.
That's when snooping becomes doing what your supposed to do in a marriage. Be interested in what they are looking at on the internet, having common financial goals and tracking them by looking at account balances and activity, and sharing what you are doing with your time simply because that is the courteous thing to do and what happy people do. There's no room for secrecy and privacy in a marriage. There's no room for your own stuff, your own place, your own anything.
You can have your man room in the garage. But, its still our garage. I can go in there anytime and I can be with you in there.
Your relationship is missing trust, that's why it feels like snooping. Good luck. This is all very new to me and I'm totally drained right now...if it doesn't make sense just toss it. I just can't deal with processing it now. Hopefully there's a nugget in there that helps you.
I think I understand what Adam is saying about it causing hurt, but please correct me if I'm wrong, Adam.
He's saying (I think) that snooping, the need to "snoop", is a reminder of the WS of the A....and most WS would love to forget it's even a part of their past, initially. It's after the passage of time that they realize it will always be a part of their past, and better to rejoice in the changes they are making as individuals than try to forget they were ever that person to begin with.
I believe that a WS that is really remorseful will not get angry at the snooping though...someone who's coming to grips with the damage he/she did, and accepting it is all on their shoulders, is someone who welcomes any opportunity to win back trust.
If there is any negative feeling that comes from snooping, IMO, it's hurt, but it's directed at SELF, because we know we're the reason our S has to check our statements out....because of what we did. Those are the feelings of someone who is "getting it", deep inside, and working on real inner change and growth.
My W doesn't get angry with me, but she just looks so pained it hurts to see it. I try to explain that it isn't that I think she is up to something, its just something I have to do. She is scared that I will never trust her again and that I will always be suspicious.
I agree too with Hope. But there is balance. Hiding things is unacceptable, but you don't have to reveal everything all the time. That just makes you feel untrusted. My W should trust me enough not to need to go through my things or phone or email. And I used to trust her enough. But that trust doesn't require any hiding - I feel comfortable checking email infront of her, being on the phone to friends with her in the room.
I think an additional reason that snooping or paranoia creeps in at random, or not so random moments has a lot to do with PTSD. Adam, especially because you are still in such early raw pain after discovery, I think it makes perfect sense that you're internal startle sense and need for self-protection kicks in and says, "wait a minute! Is something going on? I never thought about ___________! My spouse could be ____________. I must check that immediately!!"
You may not feel like you're still in the beginning stages of recovery, but you're only a few months in and a bit of your recovery has been delayed because of your W's need to hold on until her exams were done.
I remember this "phase" or feeling very well. I felt driven and panicky. My mind would latch onto a possibility of something and I couldn't let it go. NC hadn't been broken (that I'm aware of and I'm pretty sure I believe that), but there were additional discoveries 11 months in because H for the most part was not capable of bringing everything out on the table (some of it was being hidden; some had been forgotten due to the length of time of the A).
There is definitely something to be said for the "gut-o-meter". It should not be casually dismissed if there is a nagging feeling within you. But it does not need to rule you. Most of us have learned that blind trust is now a thing of the past. I think that's a HUGE loss on a number of levels for a WS and they don't come to grips with that until a later point. BS's understand that much sooner for survival reasons. WS's may at times see "watchful trust" as punitive or not trusting at all. There's nothing wrong with them grieving for that change in the marriage as long as they realize that their actions created the need for "watchful trust".
I need more coffee. Not sure if this made much sense.
Hope, I hope you're doing o.k. I'm a bit worried about how fried you are. Is there anything we can do?
Adam, as hard as it is, please try to let your W have her feelings. Even the hard ones. Its important for her to find her own coping mechanisms, working through the uncomfortable feelings towards resolution and happiness without relying on you to protect her from them. You can be there beside her and support her. Its just important for her to be in the driver's seat; you can "ride shotgun".
BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
<<Adam, as hard as it is, please try to let your W have her feelings. Even the hard ones. Its important for her to find her own coping mechanisms, working through the uncomfortable feelings towards resolution and happiness without relying on you to protect her from them. You can be there beside her and support her. Its just important for her to be in the driver's seat; you can "ride shotgun".>>
I agree emphatically with the above statement. Later in the healing, when I was triggering badly or feeling especially down on myself, I was able to bring myself back to a more stable place by feeling pride in the journey itself. I'm talking several years into healing.
For example, there was an instance last summer with a neighbor that was innocent by all appearances, but made me personally trigger and I had a rough time of it. It felt like months had gone by instead of years, and I was very upset, and posted about it here.
It was the reassurances from people here, and my mom, and in big part looking back on how far I'd come that helped me to get past that intensity (before my H came home so I didn't have to fall apart on him). If he'd have cushioned me from the immense pain he'd felt, or tried to protect me instead of protecting his own heart, I don't think I'd have felt like I overcame and changed as much...in the long run that would have been really detrimental, even though he'd have felt like he was helping at the time.
Adam, your W has a real opportunity for growth here. But she's got to stumble in the process if she's going to really grow. As hard as that is for you to let her do, you're going to help her more in the long run. Believe me.
<<Adam, your W has a real opportunity for growth here. But she's got to stumble in the process if she's going to really grow. As hard as that is for you to let her do, you're going to help her more in the long run. Believe me.>>
I so agree with what Sunflower said
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
<....will remember that NC was a bit weird for me - she has never agreed on it. It has kind of just happened in the end, although there is still a slight contact, but not 1-on-1 and not other than in person and she tells me about it.
It has occurred to me that this might not be a bad thing (I'm cringing as I write this, because it could so easy come back and bite me in the ass, but I'll continue) because I KNOW when he is around - I know what the contact is. In effect I'm saying better that she has a contact level that she can stick to, than pretend to do something she can't. And once I gave up trying to force NC, and instead just wanted to know whenever there was contact, she started to reduce the contact anyway (she also imposed a temporary NC on herself for my benefit).
Maybe. Or maybe I'm just loopy and deluded....>
Adam,
I don't think that you are loopy and deluded....gosh...I don't want to say you are..but truly any contact is contact. My H was still in a work relationship with OW for a long time, said he'd tell me when he was on calls with her - would forget and tell me 3 days later - wasn't supposed to see her when he was in her state - would forget to tell me if he did. In my mind, I was trying to "keep tabs" on him by making him tell me when he spoke/saw/dealt with her in any way....but he didn't...he couldn't...and every contact just pulled at my heart. Then, when she was moved off of his account I thought I was in the clear...but due to their weekly contact - they never stopped the emotional part of their A...
I guess knowing that she can't pretend to do something she can't (like my h lying to me) is better than nothing. But in my experience, any contact is awful...it never ends anything in my mind.
Just my .02 and almost 4 yrs of experience.
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
<<"My H wants to earn his right back to having "space". He wants his own private place"
Yep. Sure.
At our house, that'll happen just about the time hell freezes over...
and a couple extra inches of snow and ice have accumlated.>>
Seriously, why would a person have a great desire for privacy from their spouse? I don't get it. My life is an open book, and if anything, I want my H to know me BETTER. That isn't acheived by hiding stuff from him. Makes no sense to me.
"Seriously, why would a person have a great desire for privacy from their spouse? I don't get it. My life is an open book, and if anything, I want my H to know me BETTER. That isn't acheived by hiding stuff from him. Makes no sense to me"
Can I be married to you instead? Brain transplant?
I wish my wife would cotton on to that idea.
This message has been edited by AdamMJG on Aug 30, 2007 3:27 AM
In response to your comment about the NC, that is partly why i cringed while writing it. IF I am right and there is nothing else going on and I can take things at face value then its all ok.
I am showing her some trust, which this early is pretty impressive I think, but I can cope with it, the only downside it that its much easier to break it. If she was to wait three days to tell me or similar, I would go absolutely ape over it. Its part of the conditions of this trust is that she has to be TOTALLY honest. Any slight discrepancy and we have a problem.
Now the current thing that is bugging me is that I don't have her mobile phone bills for quite a few months. I've asked her to chase up and get them from work (she doesn't know where they are). You can imagine there is a quite voice in my head that is saying "hmm... what if she is hiding them?". Anyway, at the moment the official line is that I want them because they are bills and we should have them - not to scrutinise the numbers. Clearly when I get them I'm going down the list of calls and texts etc.
I'm impatient for it, but also dreading it, because it is going to be so easy to be disappointed. I'm hoping that I won't find anything devestating (like undiscosed contact), but the bills will also cover the A, and I know 1 lewd photo message was sent, and I'm fearing when I look there will be more.
Also I'll see how many texts a day he was getting, and there is no number that is going to make me happy.
Wow, there are several similarities between your W and my H. My H claimed that he couldn't get copies of his cell bills to me, and the cell was in our name and used to be shipped to our home - he changed that when the A started. He actually emailed me a bill at one point, and he had taken out all of her calls and such. At that point I knew I had to find a way to log on to his account online. It took a while to do it, but I got the password and was able to see his account, calls, the # of texts..all of it.
I do hope she is being totally honest with you Adam, it took my H way too long to do that - and I struggle often with staying in my marriage with him.
Keep the positive attitude Adam...and I wish you only good news!
Denise
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
Adam-
I understand your how you feel about checking the phone records. I tend to nervous when I am checking up on H. Even if everything you find is old stuff that you were expecting, it'is still a trigger of the reality of what we are dealing with. It's like being punched in the stomach. On one hand I'm thinking- ok I found nothing new- he is being honest (or getting better at hiding) And then the next moment I'm ticked because we shouldn't be in this spot anyway. I shouln't have to be checking on him. I find there are triggers and doubts everwhere I turn. I am so ready to feel more stable, but that is still awhile off I'm afraid. It took about a year before I really started to feel like myself last time. Hope you are having an ok day today. -Brooke
I hope it is all harmless too. At the moment I have no reason to believe she is deliberately hiding the bills, they always used to go to her work anyway (I think - my memory is fuzzy), and then she was off work for a couple of months, and then moved desk, so they've kind of gone astray.
Her payslips also went the same way, and so that is comforting. I only mentioned about finding them yesterday, and she's not in the office today.
She's very good at not remembering to do things like that though. We have two cheques on the side in her name that need paying into our account (one from her birthday and another for our anniversary from her parents) and she still hasn't paid them in.
Still. I just know in my stomach that the picture message wasn't a one off... I just know it. And in my mind thats one of the good outcomes! I don't know what I'm going to do if I find late contact.
To be honest recent contact will be easy - I just leave. But what do I do if she used to text him but hasn't for a month?
Anyway, I have IC in hour and half. I need it.
Also think I have a drink problem got drunk AGAIN last night. Am going to cut down drastically now. No drinking when not with W. It makes me so down.
(on the otherhand, on DD1 we both got completely wasted and that helped - we talked at least. Although it maybe didn't help since she then went on a few days later to start an A with another man. In a way the second A was sparked by the first, I backed of and was unapproachable, so she went to someone else and told them about the ONS and how upset she was, and that turned into an A. Weird eh?)
The free access to all accounts did not happen in our situation. Since A's were long over when I found out, the situation was slightly different....but there were still some inappropriate drinking buddies that contacted him and wanted to initiate A's.
I desperately wanted him to give me all his passwords but he wouldn't....he promised to send me all e-mails that he received from any of the OW in his life. For the first few weeks, he didn't honor his promise but after discussions in MC, he did. (I found his password to his personal account and checked his work account/blackberry when he wasn't looking so knew when he was honoring and when he wasn't.)
I think there were a few reasons for his unwillingness:
-he wanted to see anything before I did so he could be prepared
-he still held on to his right to privacy, even though he had lost that right, in my opinion.
-While he was still in his alcoholic fog, he just didn't want to deal with my reactions - it took him a while to understand that I needed to know everything that was happening if it involved other women, even if he thought it was innocent
-most importantly,he didn't want to give up his admiration society
This was a big issue in our early days and I snooped constantly. As time went on, I stopped feeling the need and now rarely check anything - maybe a spot check once a month.
I realized that getting access to accounts is no assurance that there is NC. If H wanted to have contact with anyone he could. He would just be more clever about it - set up new accounts,delete messages immediatelly,etc. H showed amazing stupidity in how he conducted his life but even he would not be so stupid as to carry on an A on existing accounts that he gave me access to. In fact, my friend's H gave her access to existing accounts as a decoy. She maintains that snooping is better than being given access as a way to know if there is really no contact...amazing how low I have had to stoop.
Yet, our recovery has been pretty remarkable and our M is in a really good place now. But, it wasn't perfect. I still wish he had been more open in the early months and had been willing to give me access to everything. There would have been a lot fewer additional traumas and setbacks. But, despite the imperfections in our recovery, it is amazing how far we have come.
Not sure what all that rambling was about - in the end, you have to let your needs be known but you can't force anyone to do anything. And snooping if you don't get what you want? - I feel it is totally justifiable and impossible to control anyway.
The phone bills have been destroyed she thinks, or rather she says if she hasn't got them then they will have been thrown out by someone.
However, she has said she will bring the next one home. So I suppose I will at least be able to see the last couple of weeks and the next few. Just won't ever see the one's over the A.
Of course her behavour NOW is the most important, so I suppose I should be happy with that. It probably wouldn't do me any good to see the A ones anyway.
She's going out with both other men next week. Whupty-fu*king-do
It's a friend of her's birthday party and both will be there. I won't be there (even though I am invited she doesn't want me to go).
Oh and I was supposed to be going for a drink with a married female friend of mine (who is no threat AT ALL) next week, and my W made it clear that she wanted to go along as well.
I smell a double standard AND avoidance behavior. These "destroyed" bills are not so old that replacement ones couldn't be ordered. Companies keep these records for a period of time specifically so that they can provide their customers with additional copies if necessary, i.e., fire destroyed the house, the dog ate them, the WS made them go away. If your W REALLY WANTS you to have the bills, she would find a way to get them to you and would make that effort.
Most of us here have had the very real experience of having to claw, beg, plead...and most often, just get them ourselves.
Sorry, Adam; this is a very present day problem for H and I right now, and my own anxieties are showing.
BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
Call the phone Co.and ask for copies or set up an online acct...your wife doesn't need to know you are checking up on her...all you need is the acct and her ID and you should be able to access the acct information...In the US you can go back at least 6 months with one phone Co...
I really struggle with your not going to the party with your wife. marriage just doesn't hold up with that type of social activity that trust isn't there.....old saying "what is good for the goose is good for the gander"....
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
Maybe its better I don't see the bills though. What good will it do me? Will I really be better off being able to analyse them through the A? There's no such thing as a good or bad A.
I want to see the more recent ones, I want to know she's telling me the truth NOW. I know she was lieing then. Maybe its just morbid curiosity.
If someone had videod you WS and OP having sex, would you watch it? Probably, be tempted. But do you feel upset that no-one did? Of course not. I think at some point it is perhaps better not to bother digging.
As for the party - it's getting up my nose, particularly since I was invited, and particularly since BOTH other men will be there and I only found out when I was invited (the wonders of facebook eh?). And even more that she wants to come along with me with a female friend next week.
Today could be pretty rough day though - she gets her exam results today (you know the one's that delayed our recovery start). So we'll see.
Adam, what on earth would she be able to say that would convince you going to a party without you, whether you were invited or not, where 2 OM are going to be, would be a good idea??? I'm baffled. Completely stumped. If anything, she should be staying home. OMG, if that's so inconceivable, then by all means, YOU SHOULD BE THERE. I'm shocked.
This one throws me for a loop. It's like asking, begging, for more hurt in the marriage. On her part, not yours.
Sun
Thanks SF, you'd think it was pretty loopy wouldn't you. Infact if I read it about someone else I'd say exactly the same.
I don't think it is ENTIRELY delusions though.
One point is that I'm coming to realise that I shouldn't fear the OP. I'm the only one obsessing over them I think. I think my W has no special attachement to them. If anything she may even be concious of them and so that takes her eye off the ball. I am MUCH more concerned rationally about new men who are potential A partners. One in particular...
Anyway, I can't force her to do anything, all I can try do is gradually change her behavious, and gradual means occaisionally accepting "old" behaviour. She has said that she only wants to leave me behind the first couple of times she see's these friends again - so that she can make friends with them. She fears being ignored because I'm there.
Humph... how did I end up in such a dysfunctional marriage?
Adam,
I am so concerned because of a basic fundamental focus here that I see...
Your W is still concerned about herself. She's not got her M as #1 on her priority list. She has taken a sledgehammer to her marital vows and that's supposed to be an enormous wake-up call! It's NOT ABOUT HER, it's about you two as a couple....she's still so incredibly selfish (affairs are the definition of the ultimate selfish behaivor, btw) that she is seeing what SHE needs.
Adam, that's a woman who is still incredibly in the fog. This is a major, HUGE opportunity to show you how her priorities have straightened out, and she's missing it. I feel so frustrated for her, because I was where she's at, and my H forced me to either change my priorities dramatically, or lose him. I'm so thankful he did, or I'd have also lost myself in the process too.
I feel for you Adam, and I also feel for her. She's dramatically off-course right now, but I pray she comes around soon.
I noticed you wrote "I can't force her to do anything, all I can try do is gradually change her behavious...". I'm sure you didn't quite mean this the way it came out, but it sounds like you believe YOU can change her (even though you also acknowledge that you can't FORCE her to do anything).
Just a reminder of what might seem to be semantics, but I can only set boundaries on what behavior I'm not willing to accept, then enforce those boundaries. Boundaries are not ultimatiums. Boundaries are maintained by anything from a gentle reminder, a stern reminder, or a consequence that shows the violater that a boundary has been broken. In some cases (i.e. persistent abuse), the consequences of broken boundaries can spell then end of the relationship.
Also, although is appears that you feel as though you should only bring your boundaries to bear incrementally, I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it. Especially if it's not well understood that this is the process going on. I think that incrementally changing boundaries leaves people confused about what is OK and what it not OK.
Like Sun, I am quite shocked at some of what you wrote. I not only agree with everything Sun wrote, but I also agree with Tom. There are boundaries you set for you, to protect yourself. Those are the boundaries that only you can enforce, and your W either accepts them or crosses them. It is up to you to decide what you will and will not accept. Without boundaries you are the proverbial "doormat" and willingly so. This is what is meant when people say you teach others how to treat you. If you let them walk all over you, they will. Our mind says they shouldnt if they love us, but the truth is they will if we let them. It is human nature, unfortunately. If we dont respect ourselves no one else will either.
Then there are boundarires in marriage which you both agreed upon and set when you wed. Those boundaries are there to protect the marriage. Your W willingly crossed those as well. And now you both seemed to have tossed all boundaries out the window. I fear you have allowed her to over step your boundaries without consequences because you are so afraid of losing her. The problem is that if you dont uphold any boundaries at all, you not only lose your marriage, you also lose yourself. This is why it is so important to set personal boundaries...it is taking care of YOU. You are just as important as your W. Your feelings matter. Why do you not believe this? You think it, yes, but you dont fully believe that you are worth it. But Adam, you are worth it!
I would also like to address some thinsg you have said...
<<One point is that I'm coming to realise that I shouldn't fear the OP.>>
First, I do believe the BS has every reason to fear the OP, ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS CONTINUED CONTACT. This person felt that it was OK to violate another persons marriage. They do not respect the marriage and are indeed a threat. They could have said NO, and should have said NO. This person, unless truly remorseful, would have no problem doing it again. In fact, the more you do it the easier it becomes...it's like second nature.
<<I'm the only one obsessing over them I think.>>
I think almost every BS obsess about the OP at some time. How could they not? This person slept with their spouse! Some get over that aspect sooner than others but it is 100% normal. If your W is truly remorseful, and stops all contact with the OM, then this obsession will fade as trust is rebuilt. But if there is continued contact I really dont think that is possible. You will always be on high alert, and rightfully so. And you have every right to check up on her and make sure she is keeping her word. Continued lies only destroys the marriage further, not help to repair it. And turning a blind eye to this does neither of you any good. Yes, it hurts and it is hard work, but it is necessary if teh marriage is to be rebuilt, and you are both to heal.
<<I think my W has no special attachement to them.>>
If she has no attachment to them then why does she feel the need to remain friends with them? This makes no sense to me at all. She would avoid them at all costs. If not for herself, then for you and for the marriage. I have read what you said about her not having female friends, and that has been addressed in other posts. It is still not good for the marriage regardless of why she feels this way though.
<<If anything she may even be concious of them and so that takes her eye off the ball. I am MUCH more concerned rationally about new men who are potential A partners. One in particular...>>
Sounds like your W still doesnt get it if she is still getting cosy with other men. I understand about her not having female friends as you say, but I am afraid that is a poor excuse to continue to befriend men. Male friends should be off limits, especially since she is so unaware of the potential for her and her male friends to become more than just friends. Im sorry, but after having A's with male friends she can not possibly be that naive anymore in that regard. Unless she is in some sort of denial...in which case would just prove how mush she doesnt get it and how truly selfish she is being. Either way, it is not good for the marriage.
<<Anyway, I can't force her to do anything, all I can try do is gradually change her behavious, and gradual means occaisionally accepting "old" behaviour. She has said that she only wants to leave me behind the first couple of times she see's these friends again - so that she can make friends with them. She fears being ignored because I'm there.>>
I think Sun covered this one pretty well and Tom too. But I just wanted to reiterate how very selfish that statement is, and how it is all about her. And if you feel accepting old behaviors is OK, then there are still boundaries that need to go along with them. Like, you should be attempting to make a united front as a couple for others to see (and for you to feel). It sounds like a lot more is going on here. I would either go with her or expect her not to attend, especially since you were invited as a couple.
<<Humph... how did I end up in such a dysfunctional marriage?>>
I too wondered this myself and it took me awhile to get it. Again, I think Tom covered this one well. It's all about boundaries.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
As a FWS, I agree with what Sun and Tom have written.
Your wife is sliding down a slippery slope going to a social gathering and not wanting you there. In MHO when OM are there she should not go but if it is necessary you should accompany her. She should want you there because she should not be doing anything privately that she would not do in front of you.
