I think it would be fair to say that in most M that experiance A's there is a problem with communication between the BS and WS.
Yesterday I was speaking to my W, not in person, not over the phone, but over MSN... ...and what a difference.
Yes to start with we were arguing but we soon settled down into a really productive (and long) conversation about the A and her thoughts on it. We also briefly discussed why we were only just talking about it and realised that it was MSN that was facilitating. Face to face the emotions interfere too much, I get angry or upset, both of which make it harder for my W to express herself and talk about the A. In turn she gets upset and I back down from my point.
Some amazing (positive) stuff came out of it, and she already had a far better understanding of the A than I gave her credit (to those out there who've followed the story and go WHAT?! remember that understand the needs of the BS and understanding the reasons why the A happened are totally different).
Clearly we know we can't operate the M over MSN permanently, but for now using it for the "difficult" conversations may not be a bad crutch to get us going.
For anyone else having trouble with communicating, then I think you could do worse than give it a go.
You have found a way to communicate that works right now and use it to your best ability, Face to face is best at times too because you can see the S's eyes and can really tell if they are really understanding or just saying what you need to hear..ie body language...squirm, can't look you in the eyes, eyes downcast,...the arms crossed.
Journals are a good way to communicate too, as are letters.
Glad that your wife is communicating with you..what did you decide about the party?
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
I did challenge it in the end, and I'm glad I did, although she will still be going without me, at least I feel confident it is the right decision.
Her IC also knows about the party, and has given her advice on how to enjoy herself when she is there.
Its hard to explain properly why I'm ok with it, and I don't think many people hear would understand, but it basically comes down to believing that she does understand what happened that caused the affair. I can't act against my belief just because my belief might be wrong - that would get me no-where. Yes if I doubted that she was sincere then we would have a bigger problem, but to be honest I don't.
She doesn't WANT to see the OM specifically, and won't interact with him (except that I've asked her to take his books back so they aren't hanging around in our flat any more). She is fully aware that the EA part is the big risk, that once that was in place the PA was secondary, and she has talked of developing a dependency on the OM. Now that that is broken, he has no allure to her (which I had already guessed). However, she is also aware of the risk in general and says she is now has boundaries to protect against this. These were her own explanations and thoughts, and not just agreeing with my suggestions.
She is going to the party, to try and make friends herself, particularly with the women there, and her IC has given her some tips to try. I can empathise and understand that doing so would be more difficult with me on the sidelines.
We have agreed that this isn't permanent but just for the first few times as she makes friends.
I know this sounds unorthodox or to some of you will sound like a recipe for disaster, but this is the course of action that feels right to me, and so I'm sticking to it.
I think the use of chat for these conversations is reasonable. As Pat mentioned, others have used journals and other forms of written communication. Instant messaging seems like another similar outlet.
One potential danger of instant messaging is that what makes it benificial could also introduce misunderstandings. The fact that it removes certain information (i.e. emotions) from the conversation is giving you a way to talk about difficult topics, but there are cases where that additional information is important.
I suggest that you continue using it, but also work (at some point) to wean yourself from this tool and learn to have the same conversations face to face. This way you can move your relationship to a new level of intimacy, where you're in-tune enough to have a difficult conversation without hurting each other, without getting defensive, and without retreating. I agree that right now it's not possible, or at least extreemly difficult. Infidelity introduces too much anger, hurt, guilt... to allow such a conversation to occur without some amount of degeneration at some point. But, as my wife and I learned how to discuss the affair without getting emotional, and as our emotions subsided, it brought us to a point where it was easier to talk about other things that are also difficult topics. It also made those conversations more productive because there was less attention focused on defending ourselves, and more on understanding the other.
My H and I used emails as a very helpful way to discuss the A. Certainly, the ideal way would be face to face, but the truth is that sometimes we hurt too much and our WS feels too much anxiety and guilt for either of us to be able to talk face to face. When we get further along, and both BS and WS have a clearer understanding of the nature of A in general and the WS in particular, then face to face conversations become, if not easy, certainly easier.
For now, you have found a way to communicate, and the fact that you ARE communicating, sharing and listening, is wonderful!
I'm glad that so soon after DDay you and your W have found a way to communicate that has brought about understanding. I echo what others have already said that hopefully at some point you'll also find a productive way to communicate in person, to help with intimacy. We found Retrouvaille really helped us with that. Also, when I want to talk to my H about something that I worry he might get defensive about, I've sat beside him in a calm moment and held his hand or touched his leg, while I start the conversation.
I found this not only helps him to not get as defensive as he otherwise might, but also helps me to use a calm tone instead of rushing to a more attacking approach.
But as early in the healing process as the two of you are, I can see where the internet could be a real asset. My H and I also used it, especially when he was at his remote job and we wanted to talk w/out his coworkers overhearing.
As for the party, I'll keep my mouth shut. You already know my thoughts. I hope it works out as you and your W are anticipating, Adam. There's nothing I love more than a M that's able to conquer the damage an A causes, believe me.
Well, I'm going to buck conventional wisdom on this "chatting" issue.
For us, it was a disaster. My H was still lying and deeply entrenched in his fog, although all that was unknown by me. So we communicated often through the Internet and his words seemed so sincere. He actually preferred that form of communication...he says now that it was a great way of avoiding his guilt, because he didn't have to lie to my face
As usual, there is more than one side to any issue. Life is SO different now. Life is good, loving, and peaceful. Do we have our ups and downs? Oh, yeah. For sure. But we can now have those tete-a-tete confrontations with respect and renewed understanding for each other's position.
Then again, it's taken 3 d-days, a full 7 months of healing and no-contact, and a move 1200 miles away.
As for that party thing? I'd vote on the side of "YIKES! It's a mistake!!! Don't do it! I smell disaster!" While at the same time, wishing you a positive outcome.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
JJ makes a good point. The fact that IM is not face to face can make it easier to continue a lie and to get new lies past a betrayed spouse. This seems especially true if your spouse is still in contact with the OP as in JJ's case. You have to figure out what's best for you, and it seems like it can be good if the WS is out of the affair and really working on reconcilation, but having trouble with the guilt of what they've done. But as JJ said, it can also be used as a means of manipulation when the WS is still involved in the affair in some way.
One of the best ways could tell my wife had come fully clean was when she seemed totally comfortable with transparency, meaning any question I had and any feeling that I wanted to discuss was acceptable for her.
I fear for you, yet I know at the same time everyone has to find their own path's to the truth and out of the comfort of what we would like to believe. In my mind it is much too soon for a WS to be able to handle such a tough situation with new boundaries. It will be stressful and old habits have a way of prevailing. But as you have said, you have decided to go with this.
Another aspect of this is the BS's pain, you seem so concerned with your WS's pain and put yours on the way side. It was more than a year B4 I could stand my H going out, "ANYWHERE AT ALL!" let alone a party with out me. The obsessing, mistrust and A X-rated videos were too much. Trust had to have gotten a strong foot hold of a beginning before his going out alone could be done with out great pain to me. My H, true to a remorseful WS's way, understood this, and didn't even broach the idea with me until I brought it up first.
One of the best ways could tell my wife had come fully clean was when she seemed totally comfortable with transparency, meaning any question I had and any feeling that I wanted to discuss was acceptable for her.
Interesting, Tom. So often I am asked "How do you KNOW he's out of the fog? How do you KNOW he's not still cheating on you?"
When I think of the two+ years the A was continuing, my H avoided direct contact or direct answers. I always felt like I wasn't "getting" it all, which, of course, I wasn't, and my gut was right. Ah...20/20 hindsight!
Now it's completely the opposite. My H willingly opens up and answers anything. He encourages my healing through my questioning or a discussion of issues. He will suffer through anything, if it's for the betterment of our relationship. We both try to avoid intentional, extended pain, but sometimes it has a way of creeping in...
What a difference between FOG and POST-FOG. I actually think we'll make it now.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
Good point, JJ. Another big difference I saw with my own behaivor between pre-fog and post was my reaction to any "snooping". When I was out of the fog I welcomed it. I found ways to be accountable. I didn't get mad or defensive when my H asked me questions.
That's why I see huge red flags whenever a WS is defensive or angry about questions or accountability or transparency. The "I need my privacy" line makes me nuts. It's just another deflecting technique, IMO.
You are so right. For us, H's cell phone had been used to make all the A connections. He would walk out of the room to answer it; he would shut it off if I was around. It caused him great angst always worrying if he remembered to delete his calls and messages. Just before D-day 2, I answered his phone when it rang during a heated, early morning, discussion, and it was the OW!
Now, H WANTS me to snoop! Ha! He encourages it! If the phone rings, he'll say, "Do you want to answer it?" He wants me to trust him again so sincerely, that he has completely adopted transparency and honesty. Even about the little things! Sometimes we laugh about how honest he is!
And as for, as you say, deflecting techniques? Oh, yes. He was an expert at those! LOL He knew how to manipulate my emotions and thoughts, and really kept good track of his lies. Sounds like a lifetime ago for me.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
Some interesting points made. I particularly agree with the sentiments that using MSN to chat isn't a permanent solution, and that it also makes it easier to lie. The thing is the conversation wasn't really about the sort of things that lieing works for - if that makes sense. I know it is always possible to assume that the WS is ultra devious, but that way leads insanity and JFK conspiracies. It was talking about what happened and why she thought it happened, which lieing about wouldn't really achieve anything, or even be possible. If there was a problem on that front I would have expected her to log off instead. E.g. she told that she felt very very vulnerable, and because I wasn't there for her, she latched on to the OM as a friend who would look after her. She then started to believe she needed him, and when he started to tell her his secrets about how he had cheated on his long term GF (he'd split up with a few months earlir) she felt she was special and being trusted. etc etc
Things like that I don't really see the point in lieing about, but I can see that less than 2 months later they may be hard to say face to face.
As for the other points, the snooping and the party. Well, one thing my IC is teaching me - that may infuriate you all - is that everyone is different and that I have to stop trying to find the "solution" from other people. To me this is as good a trial case as any. I've considered the evidence, but I have to go with my instinct. My big big fear is that if I am wrong, I will face ridicule, so if this does go wrong please don't rub it in my face.
We would never rub anything in your face. We have seen people try and succeed, and we have seen people try and fail all different circumstances, no matter what we will be here for you. That is what this board is all about. We know that different things work for different people, but those of us that have been around for along time have seen what usually works and what usually doesn’t, that is all. We are just conveying to you our long range experience on things like this.
As for what your W is telling you on MSN, it doesn’t surprise me at all, very common statements from a WS. They are not lies they are true, but they are also the words of a still foggy WS. She has to own her actions with out placing blame on anyone else. She is an adult, and whether you were there for her or not, is not the reason she cheated. These revelations however, take time. I would not expect her to get there quickly. It is just important that she keep turning these ideas over and over, and attribute her vulnerability to low self esteem, and how she alone can over come those issues.
Ami
This message has been edited by Amistandingstill on Sep 5, 2007 8:03 AM
On a different note, your statement jumped out at me,
"she told that she felt very very vulnerable, and because I wasn't there for her, she latched on to the OM as a friend who would look after her"
I hope this topic is one she has discussed or will discuss with her IC. Her wanting someone else to assume responsibility for her is troubling to me, and it certainly fits in with what you have written about her missing work, etc., and wanting you to call in for her, and the like.
If she comes to understand why she won't give herself permission to assume responsibility for her actions and expects others to care for her, she will feel better about herself, and probably learn to make her own decisions and follow through on them. I hope so because I know doing so will improve her self-esteem and help your relationship.
Thanks for that you two, it's comforting. Here's hoping I'm the exception and it does go ok!
I'm not sure that she is trying to particularly blame other people, and I think that might just be the way I phrased it. She accepts that she should not have done that, and has said that she should have talked to me about how she felt, and would not again risk becoming dependent on anyone else. I think she is just explaining that she was reacting to the way I was behaving, not saying it was my fault. She has said that it wasn't my fault and that there wasn't anything I could have done really.
I'm crossing my fingers for tonight that she'll be able to do as her IC advised and enjoy herself.
one thing my IC is teaching me - that may infuriate you all - is that everyone is different and that I have to stop trying to find the "solution" from other people.
Ha! This doesn't "infuriate" me at all! In fact, it totally made me LAUGH!!!
Let me tell you why...because my H's IC AND our MC said the SAME THING! Yeah, meanwhile, my H's IC KNEW he was having an A and compromised his therapist position by ENJOYING my H's stories! AND, while we were in MC, my H was still in the A and lying! Now, for two supposedly bright educated people, they were clueless...but they sure liked getting those checks! We are now convinced that both therapist or counselor NEVER had personal dealings with infidelity...and so gave out "book" therapy.
Personally, I value experience and the wisdom that comes from it. I WANT others to MAKE me THINK about all aspects...make me QUESTION what's possibly going on...and I credit....
...get ready, now, Adam... I credit HEALING HEARTS with our M in recovery, and my personal sanity and peace. That doesn't mean to say I took every posting and advice at face value, but I LISTENED. I THOUGHT for myself what would work for me...and us.
And Adam, I think you also APPRECIATE the total honesty you receive here in a safe, non-judgmental environment. I know that we each interpret differently and our situations are not exactly alike...but I still value the wisdom that only comes from experience, that I receive here.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
I'm not really sure how to interpret your post? By the overzealous use of elipsis it looks rather like stream-of-consiousness; a rant without anger?
Was you're comment that you are laughing at me? I'm not entirely sure what the joke is supposed to be.
I'm sorry that you're C seemed to be unproffessional (that is what you are suggesting) and I hope you managed to find a better one.
I do value the honest truth about others situations, and opinions, but if you are trying to ridicule my choices, or my IC, then I don't really see how you think that will help me. The last thing I need right now is to me made to feel a fool.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that I have misunderstood the message in your post, would you do me the honour of cleaning it up a tad?
I suggest that you re read JJ's post she wasn't laughing at you...she was pointing out I believe that MC do make mistakes..
My H also lied in MC/IC...for 3 yrs about something that was important to me..
I kept questioning H and MC told me that he believed my H... story was consistent..H finally in a MC session told the truth...MC was shocked and told my H that I had every right to walk out of the session and lying doesn't save relationships.
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
This message has been edited by dancin-gal on Sep 5, 2007 11:34 AM
Sure IC's can make mistakes, but I find mine is really helping. So sod it.
Perhaps and explanantion would diffuse this a little, before I get too upset.
Firstly my IC is incidental to the A. It relates to unresolved problems going back at least 8 years, and previous attempts never sorted it out (yes - I've had rubbish C before as well). The sort of problems relate to "splitting" in social reactions - overconfidence being a hair breadth from paranoia/insecurity. It all connects to a deep seated fear of appearing foolish and coming under scruitiny, coupled with ingrained provarication. I am now understanding that my default reaction is to follow others advice about how to run my life, even against my own oppinion, in order not to be mocked or thought foolish if I was wrong.
This is why I am railing against some posts a little strongly. Too many times I do what other people suggest, following blindly.
If this board can do anything to help me then probably the best it can do is support me through my mistakes.
We all offer suggestions of what worked for us...by no means should you take advice point blank, look at your situation and evaluate what makes sense to you..I could say to you or the MC could say to you... you need to jump off the London Bridge to save your relationship..You would shake your head and say she is nuts... MC says it and and you go OH..No ..I don't think so...
From what I have read thus far your MC or IC seems to be on track with your wife and that is a good thing..so no suggestion to leave your IC/MC.
wishing you a good evening tonight and hope that your wife can open up to a friend tonight..
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
"Well, one thing my IC is teaching me - that may infuriate you all - is that everyone is different and that I have to stop trying to find the "solution" from other people."
Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony in this statement for Adam and his situation? This statement by the IC is EXACTLY what we've been telling Adam in regard to giving solutions to his wife! She has to find her own way. Adam has to find his own way. We've been saying the same thing as the therapist!
To me, Healing Hearts has been a place where we all have an opportunity to share what our personal successes and failures have been. Sometimes, that information is expressed with enthusiasm. That enthusiasm can be misinterpreted from "this way was the best for me!!!!" into "this way is the best way!!!" It's not always clear where the miscue happens; sometimes, its on the part of the person giving advice, sometimes its a misread on the part of the person asking for advice. To me, that also points out the irony with the main topic of this thread...and the potential pitfalls of on-line communicating.
Adam, please don't feel ridiculed; I believe to the core of my being that no one here, no one!, would ever think less of you no matter what course you tried, or which ones you turned down. We all care very much for you and want only the best results for you and for each of us. As hard as it is for me to trust anything since DDay, I trust that to the depths of my soul. BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
Current Topic - Computer chat for BS/WS communication
I echo what others have already said that hopefully at some point you'll also find a productive way to communicate in person, to help with intimacy. We found Retrouvaille really helped us with that. Also, when I want to talk to my H about something that I worry he might get defensive about, I've sat beside him in a calm moment and held his hand or touched his leg, while I start the conversation.
