I know Im wasting my breath and beating a dead horse, but I just cant keep my mouth shut. Last night I asked the question that no BS should ever ask their WS, "How would you feel if I were the one who cheated on you?". I have asked the question before and all he would say was that he was sorry...never really answering the question. Well, last night he finally answered because I wouldnt back down. The conversation started because he said I seemed so angry all the time lately. I said if he were me wouldnt he be angry about being lied to all the time? He did not reply. SO then I said "If I cheated on you how would you feel? If I went out and bought some guy all kinds of things, spent time with him and f-ed him, and then came home to you, how would you feel?" He replied "I would ask myself why you were getting your needs mets by someone else, and what was I doing wrong?" I said I asked myself those questions for a long time. I said I didnt do anything wrong. He snickered! I said "so you're saying it's my fault that you cheated?" He said no, Im not saying that. I said then what are you saying, your needs werent being met? No response. I said "how werent your needs being met, I want to know? I said I was a good wife and mother, we made love every night, and I begged you to talk to me. I was always here by your side, waiting for you and instead of talking to me you f-ed someone else, for 5 years. I said the only thing I didnt do for you was smoke pot. Was that it....was it because I wasn't a pothead...was that my downfall? His reply "Im sorry". Then I said "why is pot so important to you, that you needed someone who smoked pot and spread her legs?" No reply! He seems to be trying to punish me for not accepting the pot and sticking up for myself so much lately.

He also seemed very much still in the fog about the OW, which makes me wonder if he is still seeing her. So I asked. Of course he says no, but I just can't believe that. BTW, he no longer denies buying her the car. He doesnt say he did but wont say he didnt. So then I went off about her too...how she works under the table and lives in the projects and how not only did my WH give her money, but my tax dollars are also helping to support her. He bought her gas, a car, jewelry, gave her food, and drugs...not to mention spent time with her...all that he took away from me and the children so he could give it to her, and he doesnt expect me to be angry? After lying to me for 6 years now he doesnt expect me to be angry? Sorry, I am human, and yes, I am angry. Very angry right now because he is not remorseful, he has not kept his word, and he is now actually blaming me for the A, for not meeting his needs somehow. I didnt do anything to deserve this! None of us did.

I only posted this on open instead of deeper in hopes that a WS will tell me what is going on here? I do not mean to offend anyone. Does this sound like a remorseful WS 1 year post d-day 2, or one still deep in teh fog and possibly still having an A? All replies are welcome. I guess I just want my feelings about what is going on here validated....that Im not crazy or being some awful _itch for no reason.



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal,

You are not crazy
You are not a *itch
From what you have written, you have gone above and beyond meeting his needs - and if you believe even 1/2 an ounce of his words pushing blame on you....I'm coming out there to shake you - you know better than that.
Your H is a classic deflector...not taking responsibility for his actions and choices...and IMHO..he's acting like a teenager. He gets what he wants, when he wants, doesn't care who it affects and pushes the blame to others.....
I am sorry you had such a hard evening....I am proud of how forward and strong you are when dealing with your H...I do not have that level of strength....

(((((((((((((Cal)))))))))))))

Denise

"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"

Cal,

You have every right in the world to be angry. Frankly, I'm glad to see you finally expressing it. It is about time, and it is something you need to do.

Ami

Cal,

What Dee said! Sweetie, you KNOW you did nothing wrong here. Your H is in pot-induced lalaland.

I was going to write more, but I would just be repeating what I have written many times before about him and his choices. I am just sad that he refuses to assume responsibility for his choices and hurts you and your children, and yes, himself, in the process.

Keep standing your ground. You KNOW you are right. Remember that not only do you no longer recognize this man, his own family doesn't either!

Bazillions of fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

Cal,

It is easier to deflect the blame on others then to face the consequences of your wrong choices or to look at your inner demons. I feel that is what your H is doing. Getting high is another way to not face reality.

I know that having an A is about the person themselves not their spouse. You should not take any blame for his choice.

Rett

Cal, your husband very much seems to believe that he's above the law; above moral law and above civil law. He's being enabled from all sides, and it has been that way for so long, what else should we expect from him except this hazy, not-my-fault, attitude? The life he's living is reality, as far as he knows.

 

Thank you Dee, Ami, FF, and Rhett,

I guess the numbness finally wore off from the last few weeks and that is why I am so angry. I just could not believe that a year after d-day 2 he blames me, and after a year in IC. How is that possible? It just shows me that he really hasn't done the work in IC, he is only going because it was part of reconciliation. He has not changed one bit! For all I know he is still cheating. His first A, as others have said, is still going on (the pot addiction), whether or not he is with OW.

Today as he left for work I asked him why he is still here, after I asked him to leave? If OW is so "perfect" and Im some crazy _itch why are you here with me? He said because he wants to be. I told him that I don't believe him...that it doesnt feel that way to me. That he must still have feelings for OW if he still sees her as being Ms. Wonderful. He said he has no feelings for her. Again, I told him that I dont believe him. I said if you really wanted the marriage to work after d-day 2 you wouldnt have continued to lie to me and you would have kept your word. To which he did not reply, but kissed me on the cheek, said I love you, and went off to work. I am supposed to be at work myself in 5 minutes...I don't want to go! I dont' want to be there with him. I dont want to be where this whole thing started. Up until now I thought I had gotten over that (and I did), but inlight of all the new lies and betrayals I just dont want to be there anymore, EVER! Thank goodness I was gone last Friday and didnt have to face the place. Why should I go? The only reason I have continued to go was because I thought he was remorseful and it is our livelyhood and it is what's best for my family. Now I know for sure he has not been remorseful and was only manipulating me. My IC says, I need to do what is best for me and stop putting all of them first. I know he is right.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

I think this conversation is a good one to have, and to keep going. This should be an on going discussion until the situation is really resolved.

Think about this... if your husband had experienced words rejecting the use of pot very early in his experience related to it from his peers, family and so on, and continued recieving that rejection, then he might not have gone as deep in his use of it. I don't point this out to place blame, but to illustrate the importance of words of encouragement as our lives unfold.

Today there is a mountain of acceptance to overcome and reform his ideas, but the biggest part of this is constant (and strong) reminders that what he believes to be the truth (that it's acceptable) is not true. It's very similar to how the affair and his actions in recovery have 'convinced' you that he doesn't really want marital recovery, and that he doesn't really love you. You need a strong and consistant reassurance that these beliefs are not true. Similarly, he needs a constant reminder that his beliefs are not true.

He believes that his drug use doesn't matter and he isn't hurting anyone. He needs to see the untruth of that idea. He needs to see it often and clearly.

This conversation is one way of accomplishing that. I encourage you to continue reminding him of the truth. There's a chance that one day he will finally understand.

TomJ

David & Tom,

You are both right. Essentially you are both saying he has suffered no consequences for his actions, thus enabling the behavior. I agree. I have stated to him many, many times that it is unacceptable and we have had talk after talk over the last 3 years. So far it seems to have done little good if any at all. He seems to only respond when action is taken against him or his addiction, which now are one. As far as him feeling he should be allowed to smoke regardless of what me or anyone else has had to say, he has several justifications for his addiction and I am not sure if anything or anyone can change his mind. My IC says an addict will always find a justification for their behavior and an excuse to use, it's called "exceptionalism". Somehow they are the exception in life and justified in their use...it is part of the addiction process, and so is the denial. Only with consequences (hitting rock bottom or losing something dear) does one usually realize they even have a problem. Without acknowledging they have a problem they will not seek help. You cannot change what you don't acknowledge. So nothing has changed yet again.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Another way he finds validation for what he does is by reading those magazines that approve of pot and push for legalization of it....since he's not getting the approval from you he looks for every other source. Just another assurance he won't change as long as he sees nothing wrong with what he's doing.

My heart goes out to you, Cal. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

Hugs,
Sun

Thank you so much Sun. Yep, those magazines he reads certainly does not help. Did I tell you that each month there is a plant of the month, along with some pothead chick of the month? She is dressed but usually scantily so. Lovely isnt it? I know we have a thing in this country called "freedom of the press", but my gosh, those stupid magazines should be illegal! They promote illegal drugs and use. If the drug were legal that would be one thing but it's not, so I dont get how they can even publish that crud!

He also joined NORML, which I have mentioned before. I recently took a good look at his membership card. It is a card you give the police if you are busted. It tells you your rights regarding illegal search and seizure and how to evoke your 5th ammendment rights to remain silent, and instructs you to not give consent for any search of your person or property, and not to answer any questions without an attorney present and suggests you give the card to the officer so he understands your decision to not answer his questions and why. I couldnt believe it! I was so disgusted with it that I tore it up and threw it away and didnt tell him about it. What a load of garbage!!! Just another reason he didnt fear getting busted.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Yes, Cal- and this is in large what I meant by him being enabled from all sides. His "peers" have normalized his behavior. Even being in that "club" makes him feel more justified in his actions/thoughts. I believe you've even said before that the police turn their heads, look the other way - for whatever reason.

I guess I'm not really telling you anything you don't already know...and I know a lot of what you've been writing is "just" venting. And yet, I hope there's a positive outcome for you in all of this. I just can't believe that this is just as good as it'll ever get for you. And what's really disturbing to me is the thought that it could get a whole lot worse for you, especially if reality ever really comes crashing down on your H.

"I would ask myself why you were getting your needs mets by someone else, and what was I doing wrong?"

THAT COMMENT would be enough for me to ask him to get his ass out the door and never come back. After this length of time he still doesn't get that it has NOTHING to do with you. He hasn't even bothered to come close to seeing your side of it and that just pisses me off!!!! The snicker....well that would have just thrown me over the top....could he be any more disrespectful to your feelings

Cal you deserve SO much better!

Dear, dear Cal,
I am so sorry. I hear the fury and pain in your post and recognize my own voice - even now, over two years later and with a remorseful spouse, that rage still takes over sometimes so I understand how it can overcome you. I do think that expressing anger is partly your acknowledgment that none of it has anything to do with you...good for you in not taking his stuff on.
It also feels like you are moving closer to taking action to do what is right for you. I know that is a very slow process as you are dealing with many lives and potentially big changes in all of them. Whatever you decide, I hope that those changes are positive. Remember that there are many road to happiness .....as long as you love yourself and treat yourself like someone you love.

Susan

Cal,

The rage in me has pretty much seeped out because my H has worked so hard to understand and to change. (He is at the IC's office right now.) That is the crux of the problem. When you have a WS who refuses to do the hard work to understand how s/he could do such a devastating thing and change bad behaviors, of course the BS will still be locked in a state of anger and pain. How could it be otherwise? You know how much his behavior hurt you, you have told him, it seems obvious to anyone who knows your story, but he just minimizes your pain, and makes you feel minimized, too.

You have no reason to forgive him because he refuses to acknowledge his wrongdoing and continues the behavior. Of course, you are frustrated and hurt. It's normal under these circumstances for you to feel anger and to share that anger with him.

I am sad that he refuses to look at himself and look at what his bad choices are doing to himself, you, your marriage, and your children.

You will know what you need to do for you and your children when you are ready to do it. You have grown so strong over the past few years. We are all proud of you.

Strong fairy hugs for a strong woman,

fairyfriend

I am in tears reading the responses from Kim, Susan, and FF...you guys (and everyone else on HH) have given me the strength and courage I need to keep fighting for myself, and for my children through all of this. I have not made it this far alone, and that is BIG for me, and it means so much to me...because I have felt alone most of my life.

I am definately leaning towards making a decision to end it. I held my tongue that night, although it doesn't sound like it, lol. When he started blaming me for the A, I almost completely lost it! My gut said kick him to the curb and dont look back. Another side of me said...wait...just wait...another few days will not make a difference...think about this...make a decision with a clear head...have a plan in place, like last time. My IC said his greatest fear for me is not that I wont eventually uphold my boundaries (he sees I am getting there too) BUT that I want my marriage to work so badly that I will give in to his cries to reconcile, like I did last time. He reminded me that addicts lie to protect their addiction. They will beg and they will plead, but in the end the addiction wins unless the addict fights it and WANTS to be free of it. He reminded me that my WH has no desire to give up pot and that he has not admitted to even having a problem and is still directing blame on me. Therefor his pleas mean absolutely nothing...his promises are hollow and are only meant to ensure his continuance of being able to use and abuse without consequence by trying to manipulate me.

I know if I stay I am enabling this behavior...I get that! Boy do I get that. Freeing yourself from the addicts addictive process does take time...you have to separate yourself from the addict to rebuild your self esteem and recoup from the abuse...the addiction is their issue, not yours...you have no control over the addict or his addiction...then you learn to stand strong because you are worth it...you face your fears...and you uphold your boundaries! It isn't easy when you have suffered abuse for so long...to the point that it is "normal" and you dont even recognize you are being abused any longer. You develope coping mechanisms that now have to be undone, and new ones learned. There is so much at stake here...my life, my children's lives, my marriage, and my family. Sometimes it is just so hard to wrap my head around all it and it feels overwhelming.

Thank you all for your encouragement

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Dear Cal,

I admire you for your ability to handle a crisis situation. You really are a strong woman. Never doubt that.

My first IC, a psychologist, fully supported my coming here, but my psychiatrist didn't because of a lot of reasons. But you know what, coming here does not keep me mired in the past, or feed my ego by helping others. No, it's that I feel a real connection to you, to Ami, to El, to Dee, to Pat, to Chinook, to Susan, and just keep adding on to the list because the names just keep coming.

No one knows how walking through a firestorm feels until s/he has done it. We have a sense of community and support here, and I feel welcome and honored to be able to be here. You and so many others have been here when I needed a shoulder to cry on, someone to help me, and I think we want to be here for each other.

Huge fairy hugs, dear Cal. Stand strong.

fairyfriend

Hi Cal,
Just wanted to let you know again how much I understand the horrors of being married to an addict. Especially one that we love. Every loving instinct wants to help them, make them better and change them. But you know that they can only do those things for themselves.

I know I am lucky in that my alcoholic husband somehow got it into his alcoholic brain that he needed to stop or lose it all. But I still suffer severely from the after-effects of his alcoholism - the loss of self esteem, the anger at what he put us all through, the shame that I allowed him to do all that, the feeling of mattering so much less than the addiction, the impotence of not being able to fix him and not being able to leave the situation,the denial that there is a huge problem. He put me through hell and yet, when he shined his light on me, I was happy or deluded myself into thinking all was well. How could I accept such crumbs?

It seems that it should be so easy - when someone is cruel,abusive,addicted or unresponsive, leave them, right? I know so very well that it is not easy. I will share with you that I wish I had the strength to leave my H years ago, when he was actively alcoholic and a lousy husband. While I didn't know it at the time, he was also unfaithful but I should have left even without knowing that. I was just so beaten down and so delusional that I couldn't. And, I thought I was doing the right thing for my kids in staying - I will never know if that was true.

I know that you will do the right thing when you are able to but don't get down on yourself for needing time to decide what that is.

I so wish I could give you a big hug and tell you in person how much I understand. I admire your courage in dealing with all this. My H was supposed to be the big hero that rescued me and made me special - now I know that I have to be the heroine of my own life and it's so much harder to take on the role than to give it to someone else.

Hello Cal,

I have no real advice to give - I am married to a depressive, not an addict, lol. I do know, however, that your H has to want to help himself, and he patently doesn't. This has all been said before. You have my prayers and support.

Dave

I've started this response about 4 times now. Two times it was because of the kids My XH and your H could be one in the same when it comes to pot. The thing with pot is that there are actually magazines (as you have pointed out) that campaign for the "rightness" of the drug. You don't see it with meth, cocaine etc. Potheads have a means of saying that their drug is ok. But Pot puts you in a fog, and I speak from some experience. It is an escape from reality.

Not only do you have to work against the A fog, but also the pot fog. I actually viewed his pot habit as the OW. Even losing his family was not enough for my H, and we are no longer together.

You need to do what is right for you. Set you boundaries and do not deviate from them, be prepared that there is a strong possibility that he may not care that you are on your way out the door. Do not let his distorted set of values leak into how you feel about yourself. There comes a point where you have to draw the line. I just knew when I reached it.

I have much more experience with pot than I would like to admit to. Both as a user and as a W of a user. I am more than willing to discuss my experiences with you if you think it would help.

Big hugs to you.





Peanut

We help ourselves when we help others

Peanut,

Thank you for your post. I would love to hear anything you have to say...any insight would be greatly appreciated.

I talked to my IC about the pot yet again, and how WH basically said I didn't meet his needs because I wouldnt get high with him, so he found someone who accepted and condoned the pot and did it with him. My IC pointed out how very flawed my WH's thinking and thought processes are. He said "when" my WH cheats on me again...not "if", but "when" it is due to this thought process because WH has done nothing to change this thought process. The pot addiction is only a sympton of this thought process, as was the A, as are most other addictions. Pot is simply what WH prefers, but the addiction(s) could be to anything. WH has multiple addictions, pot being the most destructive of them all. IC also mentioned that the reason WH does not see the OW in a negative light is because he associates her with his pot addiction, and since he sees nothing wrong with smoking pot, he sees nothing wrong with the OW. WOW!!! That made so much sense to me. So as long as he is smoking the pot there is a 99.9% chance he will not be able to remain faithful for long, that is if he is being faithful at the moment...which I am not sure he is.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

<<So as long as he is smoking the pot there is a 99.9% chance he will not be able to remain faithful for long, that is if he is being faithful at the moment...which I am not sure he is.>>

I have been at that exact point. My question to you is.... Why do you stay?

I do not ask to point fingers at you. I did the same thing for a very long time. Just curious what your thoughts are.

Hugs


Peanut

We help ourselves when we help others

<<Why do you stay?>>

My IC gave me a paper to read that I think really explains it for me. It's about falling into the river and finding a log to cling to. You go through treatureous waters and you cling to the log for dear life. There are others on the shore offering their hand out to help you back on shore but your are clinging to the log and afraid to let go of it. You fear that if you do you will drown. Then little by little you test the water. You let go for a moment, but then go back to the security of the log. Again you regain some more strength and self eseem, and you let go for longer periods of time, but still returning to the log. This goes on many more times, until one day you have the strength to completely let go of the log and make it to the safety of the shore.

My WH is my log and I have almost completely let go. For my WH, the pot is his log, and he is being pulled under by it. Even though the log is drowning him, he cant let go of it! He doesnt even realise the log is what's pulling him under....he thinks the log is what's keeping him alive.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Just wanted to add, that me and my IC talked about separation...I think I am ready!