On tueday night I came home to find my W very drunk and having overdosed on paracetamol and ibuprofen. She was rushed to hospital where she kept refusing to co-operate saying she "wanted to die, not be saved", and at one point lashed out and slapped a nurse. She was held over night and the next morning discharged, where she was immediately arrested for common assault and taken into police custody. About 8 hours later she was released on bail for 6 weeks, after a doctor stated she was not in a fit condition to be interview or held in custody.
My only hope is that this is FINALLY rock bottom. Surely?
Adam, I am SO sorry to hear this news. Maybe, just maybe, this is rock bottom. She can either plough right in or take a look at herself and claw her way out again. She needs to keep taking her meds, as this should help her to gain perspective.
My own W was also depressed to the point of being suicidal, and started cutting herself (to feel something). It scared the hell out of me! Fortunately she got the help she needed, and something as drastic as a suicide attempt never occurred.
It DOES strike me that if your W was serious about suicide, overdosing on ordinary painkillers was probably not the most effective way of doing it. This could be more of a cry for help and attention as she feels depressed to the point of distraction. She may not even realise that this is what it is. We (W and I) have known a couple of people who have killed themselves (or tried to), and if someone wants to do it, they will! It's not THAT hard.
She needs you more than ever now. You are the closest person to her (which is probably why you have been on the receiving end of the most pain), and the person she most relies upon for support and love. Hopefully this represents the nadir of her depression.
Stay strong.
Dave
This message has been edited by shoozul on Oct 18, 2007 6:47 AM
My heart breaks for you, I saw what my son’s ex’s suicidal attempts did to him and know what it must be doing to you. Even though my son and his ex now live in different states, he still lives with the belief that he will get that call again. This is no way for a person to live.
I too, unfortunately know people close to me that have committed suicide and succeeded. Dave is right, when someone really wants to, sadly they get the job done. I also know what it is like to deal with someone I love that uses suicidal attempts as a way to get peoples attention and manipulate them to doing things their way, in my opinion this is an extreme form of emotional abuse. I say this with love, as my BF is the person I speak of. You walk tenuous ground Adam. You have to realize that what she has done has nothing to do with you, and you could not have stopped it, nor will you be able to stop it in the future when she most likely will do it again. I know my BF will likely try to do this again, when things get so bad that she knows no other way to stop the craziness. I also know that she will most likely never want to own her part in the craziness in her life. She is fixated on the belief that it is everyone else that needs to change.
You care deeply for your W, I know that, but it is not what is needed for her to change. What is needed is for her to acknowledge it and then really want to for herself, not you. It always comes from within. We who love them only want to believe we have some control, it is that belief that allows them to manipulate us. I know that I have made a decision with my friend to support her in therapy but to not give her attention or any ounce of sympathy, for her decision to pull such a stupid stunt like a suicidal attempt for the 3rd time.
Have been through this also with a friend who lived with us for a short period after a very serious attempt only to find her a month later when she was successful. I agree with Dave. Our friend was certain, certain that she would not do this again but when despondency hit her again it went fast and quickly and there was nothing we could do. It's not easy to love someone who struggles with life this way. It may help if you are in IC to talk about your own boundaries and limitations if she is someone who uses attempts for attention - it's not always what it's about, but either way, their is a lot of guilt and anger to sort out. MM
I'm sorry that you now have this to deal with as well.
I wonder, why do you think this could mean she hit "rock bottom", given that she did it to herself? I don't know much about suicide and depression, so it's very likely that I just don't get it. I thought that suicide is at least either a demonstration of hopelessness, or an attempt to get pitty or otherwise manipulate.
I thought "rock bottom" was the place where you realize that the self-destructive path you're following isn't working and that you should accept the wisdom of another approach. Do you think this event will somehow bring your wife to this realization? If so, could you explain how?
((((((((((((Adam)))))))))))) I'm so sorry for this latest event. I know you had mentioned there was a possibility that your W was getting passed over on a promotion at work. Is that what led to her spiraling out of control? Certainly, any road out of infidelity is difficult, but I think we all see how those people who are clinically depressed on top of other A issues have an exacerbated journey. Throw all that together with things not going as she had hoped at work and I can see her mindset.
That said, my heart aches for you...for all you've done to be there for her and still to have her try something that, in the end, is purely selfish. I get that she is in emotional agony. But I despise that she continues to not see how what she does has an effect on you. (((((((((Adam)))))))))))))) You mention nothing in your post about how you are doing? How are you? What can we do to help you???? What are you doing to help you?
I know in the past, you've mentioned your own "escape" route with alcohol. Please promise us you won't go that route this time. With much care and concern, BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
I have contemplated suicide and been close to it but the closer I got the more I realised that there were others that needed me around. To me it was not selfish or attention seeking but an inability to live with myself and a way to stop the pain. I understand how that can be in others now too.
My experience of rock bottom came as I sat contemplating the end of my life as I knew it but also knowing that I had to just sit through that time and that there was no easy way out - And strangely, knowing this rock bottom place has given me a foundation stone from which to re-build. I can feel it now as a kind of break-through.. but not one I really want to revisit and hope I don't have to again.
I respectfully disagree with you, Jerry. I believe suicide is a very selfish behavior. It certainly speaks to an inability to live with oneself and a need to stop one's own pain. However, a selfish person absorbed in their own feelings only sees themselves and the agony they are in. They do not see the damage or impact their suicide would leave on their loved ones. As someone who contemplated suicide in the wake of the A, I know the biggest thing that stopped me from doing anything was the understanding of the hurt I would be inflicting on my children, my family and my friends. I'd be "solving" my own issue and creating pain for many others. In the end, I couldn't put the importance of my pain over the pain of those I care about. Contemplating suicide isn't selfish. Attempting it or succeeding at it is, IMHO.
Additionally, our OW used a vivid suicide threat to keep friends, her H and my H (and probably a host of others) available and on-call to her specifically to get attention.
What drove Adam's W to attempt this remains in his W's heart...and has maybe been shared with Adam. And I remain concerned for Adam's feelings in this. BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
I feel that this was maybe just maybe her way of getting adam to stop being angry at her and forgive her. in 98 when things starting to come out i didn't sleep or eat for a week my H found me pass out on the couch i was taken to a doc they where going to put me away. i told them i didn't need it.It was my selfish was of wanting my H to see what he had done to me. I feel that when depresstion set in for some are mind take over with these evil games almost I dont know i get angry at myself for it.2 yr ago when i was in real bad state of mind I would drive over one of our over passes thinking if i just drive over the edge onto fast moving cars that then my H would feel my pain.. how stupid was i thinking about that.. it was my own self pitty. i have taken pills before but i was a child.. I wanted my step parents attention i wanted somebody to just love me...
this is not "rock bottom"
Adam yes be there for her but dont take this as your fault or you should have seen it coming.. I truly believe that when a person does this they have to see the light themself like i did.. I had to see that is was not worth thinking that way. I hope it doesn't happen again but my guess is it will. she needs to talk her feeling out and fast. she has to be honest with her feeling right know.. I guessing she is still holding some mixed feeling in that she is afraid to let out.
I"m sorry for all of your pain. I wish both of you some healthy healing. and I really hope I didnt step on toes with my post.... just wanted to add some of my info..
Adam, I am so sorry to hear this happenned. Having been on both sides, my heart braeaks for you. And you're right, having been sent to hospital and then jail may open her eyes to what she is doing. Or it may not. Just remember - these are still her choices and are not a reflection of you. You, from all accounts, are very supportive and understanding. You are there for her. It is her choice to recognize it and embrace life and all that it offers.
I don't mean to thread hijack but...
Dave said, and many of you echoed, "if someone wants to do it, they will! It's not THAT hard."
Unless you misunderstand the dosage needed. Or the branch breaks.
When I took those pills, I had every intention of not waking up and cursed the fact that I was still wide awake an hour later. My regret didn't show up until the next day.
My sister-in-law wandered into a provincial park, off the beaten path, and hung herself with her bra. The only reason she wandered out 6 hours later is the branch broke and she didn't have the strength to try it again. She had passed out for most of that time and it took that long for it to be light enough to walk back out. She was lucky a bear, wolf or some other wild animal didn't find her first. Her father is air force and had search and rescue out looking for her all night and no one could find her. It was only because she chose to walk out that she is alive today.
Please, don't ever think that just because an attempt was a failed attempt doesn't mean they weren't serious. Sometimes we weren't smart enough to get it right the first time and sometimes dumb luck/hand of God saves us from ourselves.
And yes, I will be the first to admit that many failed attempts are a play for sympathy. But, as someone who had every intention of not waking up, hearing people all but say that I couldn't have been serious/was just looking for attention because I didn't succeed, makes me feel a) like a failute because I couldn't do it right the first time and b)like no one will take my depression seriously.
BTW, if I wanted sympathy and attention, I would have told WS when I got up from sitting next to him to take the pills and wouldn't have waited 3 months to tell him what happenned. If I had spoken up, thus reinforcing the "just wants attention" camp, I could have been treated medically. But, because I hid it, I have never seen a doctor about the damage I have done.
Chinook
This message has been edited by chinookwind on Oct 18, 2007 3:12 PM
I am sorry for the pain both you and your W are feeling. My youngest brother committed suicide in 1994, one week after his 24th birthday. I am 15 years older than he, so I had been married for several years, had children of my own, and lived multiple states away. I was devastated when I heard the news; I also found out that he had made an attempt a year earlier, but the friend who found him and took him to the ER never told anyone about the first attempt. (I imagine he felt terribly guilty after my brother killed himself.)
I think there is a huge difference between a person who SAYS s/he is going to commit suicide and one who makes an attempt. Perhaps the one who only talks about suicide is trying to manipulate others. I don't know, but I do know that anyone who makes a serious attempt, whether or not it is successful, is a person in tremendous pain.
Chinook, I am glad that neither you nor your SIL were successful. I have been thinking about this topic since you posted, Adam, and I realized that there is a good likelihood that if I had not experienced the depth of pain from my brother's death that I may very well have made a serious attempt to kill myself after Dday #2. I was just that devastated.
I hope your wife gets the help she needs and that she will accept it, and I hope you accept that you are NOT to blame for her personal demons.
Chinook, I did not mean to somehow trivialise the seriousness of a suicide attempt. I understand that people get it wrong - as I said, W and I know a few people who have tried or succeeded, and yes, sometimes people make mistakes even when they are serious, and botch the attempt. But it still isn't THAT hard, and people who are still serious seldom make the same mistake twice. I recall racing halfway across Johannesburg at 2AM to get to a girl my W knew because she had taken an overdose to kill herself and my W got wind of it - but she got the dose wrong and we got her to the hospital in time. The next time she tried, she got it right. It's not something to be taken lightly, and not that long ago I feared for my own W's life, as I knew that she had at least two workable plans. So in no way am I trying to write this off to some attention-seeking stunt.
What I am saying, however, is that as serious as people may be in their desperation and anguished hopelessness, it MAY be them crying for help subconciously. The human psyche is an imperfectly understood machine, and it operates in ways that are subtle and often less than apparent, even to the person concerned. So when people attempt suicide and fail, it strikes me as more humanly charitable to read it as a cry for help from a tortured soul. I don't read it as a stunt.
If I may comment further (and I don't necessarily assume that everyone here will agree with me)... It isn't for Adam to take his W's distress personally. What she has wrought isn't his fault. The noise in her head is all hers. But, this IS the woman he married, despite all her imperfections and selfish mistakes. She needs him, whether she was serious, confused, playing silly buggers, or not. She is mentally ill, and we should not abandon loved ones when they are sick. The point is that she can recover. It's too soon to tell really, isn't it? But the hope is there that perhaps in her uttermost exigency she may realise something about herself, or what she has done. And if and when she recovers, she will remember that he was there for her. She may even resent him for it - who knows? But he will have been faithful, and being faithful isn't just about not sleeping with other people. Integrity and self-consistency are one of those things that raise us up out of the mud as sentient, moral beings capable of more than mere self-service and animalistic reaction to stimuli.
((((Adam)))))....Is she at home or in an inpatient mental health facility now? My niece attempted suicide twice over a 2 year period of time, it turned out that she had bipolar disease that had been undiagnosed previous to her hospitalizations ( each time she had to stay in a psych hospital about two weeks, and then get long term out patient counseling)...these days she still struggles with it, it is a chronic disease for her, for which she needs meds, but she is much better.. Please take care of yourself..my prayers to both of you
Lisa
This message has been edited by stuckinonespot on Oct 19, 2007 1:35 AM
You wondered why I thought this might be rock bottom? We I don't know it is obviously - but my reasoning is along these lines. Either way, if it was a cry for help, or if it was a serious attempt, it definately didn't go as planned.
It is one thing if you attempt suicide and then go to hospital and come out fine to carry on with life, in her case the police arrested her and read her her rights on a hospital bed, escorted her from the ward and straight into a police car, straight into a cell where she was kept for the next 8 hours until she was released on bail. This is a girl that never even got a detention at school!
Now I think the hospital overreacted and acted very badly putting someone who attempted suicide less than 24 hours earlier into police custody, and when the doctor arrived that was why he insisted they release her into bail.
Our solicitor thinks the worst she can expect is a formal caution, should she choose to accept it, but even so that stays on your record for 3 years. Also a criminal record check will show up a caution and that could exclude her from taking certain jobs that require police checks (doctors, nurses, teachers etc). Although the reality is hopefully that this will all go away and never really have an affect on anything, the official nature of it all might give her a bit of a shock.
She has decided to quit her job and do charity work for the time being (we don't really need the money from her job anyway), and I have also been asked to go to her psychologist with her (by the police doctor). So i think this is progress.
Also if this isn't rock bottom, then she is going to die - I can't see much she can do to get any lower. She has within 6 months lost her job, permanently scarred her arms (burns & cuts), broken her marriage vows, nearly died from OD and been arrested for assault.
Adam, this is a very similar place to where my W was when she had her A. I agree with your analysis that this is rock bottom for your W - any worse and she will self destruct.
I agree that the hospital acted unsympathetically considering they were dealing with an attempted suicide - but that's the NHS for you. You need to go with her to the psychiatrist (is she supposed to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist - in a nutshell, one will offer therapy while the other prescribes drugs - each has their place, but I would suggest a psychiatrist is what is needed immediately, to review her medication appropriateness, strength and dosages). You need to NOT let them somehow brush off her condition (in case they try - I am not saying they will, but they did with my W). Your W is not really capable of rational conduct right now.
I don't know if you feel the need for this, but you might investigate or ask about) any resources for carers of people with mental illness. I found several myself around South Oxfordshire (where we live), although I eventually didn't find it necessary to use any of them. Still, it's useful to know they are there and what they are if you need them. Look after yourself, this stuff takes a terrible toll on the person acting in a support role (YOU).
My sympathies and prayers.
Dave
This message has been edited by shoozul on Oct 19, 2007 6:26 AM
Thanks for those explainations. It makes a lot more sense to me now.
What impact do you think her quitting her job will have? Will that take away a purpose in her life, allowing her to further spiral down, or will it free her up to pursue more deeply held interests? Is she still going forward with her studies?
Based on what you've written, your wife seems to have significant issues that will require focussed attention. You described a litanny of self-destructive acts which I suspect, along with the depression, are an indication of a troubled young lady. I hope and pray that she will find the answers that she and you so desparately need. In the mean time, she's fortunate that she has a devoted and faithful husband to love and care for her.
"If I may comment further (and I don't necessarily assume that everyone here will agree with me)... It isn't for Adam to take his W's distress personally. What she has wrought isn't his fault. The noise in her head is all hers. But, this IS the woman he married, despite all her imperfections and selfish mistakes. She needs him, whether she was serious, confused, playing silly buggers, or not. She is mentally ill, and we should not abandon loved ones when they are sick. The point is that she can recover. It's too soon to tell really, isn't it? But the hope is there that perhaps in her uttermost exigency she may realise something about herself, or what she has done. And if and when she recovers, she will remember that he was there for her. She may even resent him for it - who knows? But he will have been faithful, and being faithful isn't just about not sleeping with other people. Integrity and self-consistency are one of those things that raise us up out of the mud as sentient, moral beings capable of more than mere self-service and animalistic reaction to stimuli. "
Dave, you are a brilliant man. Thank you for these poignant words, especially the last two sentences.
If you would clarify please. this statement could be taken to mean those who choose not to stay in a relationship with a self destructive person, whether they have committed adultery or not, are being unfaithful. If you mean this I would have to strongly disagree.
"But he will have been faithful, and being faithful isn't just about not sleeping with other people."
Please remember that even the physical abuser has issues that could/should be addressed by the mental health profession, this does not mean the spouse should stay with them.
Leaving or staying is a personal choice. I don't believe mental health issues make it wrong for a person to exit the marriage. Just as if they choose to stay and be supportive to treatment would not be wrong either.
Just as in this case, what came first, the affair or the mental health problems??
Maybe she has hit rock bottom and will start to see her behaviour as destructive. I hope for your sake Adam that she does wake up.
One thing I do know - she needs alot of help and this is likely going to take years - are you prepared to let your pain wait until them to deal with? Are you prepared to accept that your pain in on the backburner while she deals with her problems? I'm not sure I could do that given how much pain I was in.
I think this is above and beyond the "in sickness and in health" that we all agree to. I think she broke those vows when she had the affair and the marital contract is now a day to day thing....
I admire you for being so strong in the wake of all this turmoil, but please don't forget YOU in the process. Adam needs to heal. Adam needs to find peace and Adam needs to find HIS own way through this pain.
You are right, Adam, it doesn't make it any easier. The truth is you have two major issues in front of you to deal with, either of which on their own would be overwhelming. Now you have both to handle at the same time. That's a pretty heavy burden. My heart goes out to you.
Me, too, Adam. We're all very concerned about your wife...and about you. I'm wondering if you've been able to give yourself any time or space to feel over this. I'm worried that you're worried about the potential danger of leaving W alone and are feeling a 24/7 on-call responsibility. If that's happening, is there anyone else that you and your W feel close to that knows what happened and can give you a break? That would also give her an expanded circle of support. But I also understand if you both have kept this to yourselves. (((((((Adam))))))))) How are YOU??? With concern, BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
I am concerned about leaving her on her own but I have had to go to work today. She refuses to go stay with her parents, so there is little I can do about it.
Unfortunately we don't have many friends in the city and none that could help out with something like this. She really needs to make some friends but its very hard and seems to get more difficult all the time. It's hard to get her out anywhere and hard to find ways of getting her to do things.
As far as rock bottom goes, it seems a little true, but I don't know if its just a temporary pause before continuing down. I'm being a little tougher with her now, as I think its made me realise that I HAVE to be.
One of the things she has a problem with is she has impossibly high standards for herself, and is then very critical of herself. She also links everything together - if she fails at one thing that means she is a failure. No concept of losing a battle but winning the war - she has to win every battle.
To this end I've told her she has to play and lose more games and practice losing and realising it's not so bad, so were playing the games that she usually avoids because she loses at them, and I'm going full out to win. The fact that she is (just about) willing to go along with this indicates she is serious about trying. She is supposed to be doing a little retail therapy today, and coming to see me later today. She is also supposed to be looking into going horse riding again.
>To this end I've told her she has to play and lose more games and practice losing and realising it's not so bad, so were playing the games that she usually avoids because she loses at them, and I'm going full out to win. The fact that she is (just about) willing to go along with this indicates she is serious about trying. She is supposed to be doing a little retail therapy today, and coming to see me later today. She is also supposed to be looking into going horse riding again.
Some people focus on the winning/loosing of a game, while others focus on the playing of a game. Depending on the "game", I can do either. Maybe your wife has a few areas where the joy is in the effort or the experience rather than the outcome.
TomJ
This message has been edited by tomj76 on Oct 22, 2007 8:51 AM
Between now and then I'm really worried about her - she isn't taking this whole process well at all. And she slipping backwards. She isn't talking to anyone or getting any help (Councillors etc and I don't know how to get her to).
Monday also happens to be my birthday - so I'm hoping for a birthday present that this all goes away
((((((((((((Adam)))))))))))) I'm so sorry this monsterous situation is rearing its ugly mug again. Keep us posted, buddy; I'm holding my breath for you and your W as you go through this. Be well; be safe. BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
Adam,
Just wanted to let you know that I, like the other caring people here, am thinking of you and your wife and concerned about both of you.
Suicide is obviously a very, very serious issue for both of you to deal with. I was wondering if your IC has had any advice for you. Seems that a professional point of view might help you.
So sorry that you are dealing with this but I hope that you are right and that this is the rock bottom that will turn things around.
Current Topic - Suicide attempt and police custody
