Tonight I am torn - And I realise just how much deep down I want to be loved and how much I can't believe WS loves me. What do I do? I feel she may love me now but did not before. But am I fooling myself now, again? How can I overcome my feelings of disgust and her rejection of me. It is not easy to turn my back on her but I know I could and can. Does love really unite in the face of impossible odds?
I am sorry to hear how deeply you are still hurting. I can understand your pain because my H also rejected me while living his double life.
I was also pregnant while he was having an affair so I took his rejection a lot harder than I think I would have if I had not been "fat and hormonal". There was a night where I tried to hug and kiss him and he pulled away with a look of disgust that still haunts me today. I have talked to him about this and what I got from his answer was that is how he had to act toward me to be able to have the affair.
I don't really have an answer to your question but was just trying to let you know that I know your pain and that am thinking of you and hoping you find a place of healing soon.
This is such a tough one, and the amount of time your W was in the affair has got to make it that much more painful. My heart goes out to you in this struggle.
This is something I think all BS’s struggle with and one which we all have to find our own perspective on. I can only give you my personal path down this road. I don’t know if my perspective will help you or not, but here it is, such as it is.
I believe my husband cared about me while he was in his affair, but I do not believe he loved me. He maintains that he did love me, and I am sure for him this is very true. It is more about how “I” personally view love, and I can not mix the idea of him loving me with the reality of him being with the other woman adulterously. He tells me that the love was buried so deep that he had trouble getting to it when he needed it most. This is how he believes, and I respect his belief, but I am better off believing he had lost the love completely during that time. In my mind it is worse if he still loved me and was able to do such things. He is not crazy about how I see it, but on this one, we have agreed to disagree.
Love is a wonderful and beautiful concept, but it is imperfect. It is up to the people to make it what it is. I have chosen to continue to nurture the love for my husband and he has chosen to do the same for me. I do this knowing full well the pain that loving him can bring me. For me, the old saying, It is better to have loved and lost, then to never have love at all, is so true. Love is worth the risk. If it wasn’t so grand, then it wouldn’t hurt so darn much when we loose it.
I took such a huge risk with my husband, because I saw in him genuine remorse, a sincere desire to change, and the rebirth of his love for me. If I had not seen these things within in those first terribly painful months, I would not have stayed. As it was, it took every ounce of will I could muster to commit to the reconciliation process, without those 3 things, it could never have worked.
I just wanted briefly to thank you for the hope that your message inspired. As a FWS, my spouse and I often find ourselves on different pages about whether I "loved" her during the A. It is so hard for me to try to put into words the fact that I did, through it all. But I have also heard it said that love has to be a verb, and in that regard, I clearly failed. In my actions, through my deeds, I was utterly failing to show her that love. While I felt that the love was fading, and convinced myself that this feeling was coming from her, I know now that it was coming mostly from me. So did I love her? Yes, but not well. Now I love her, love her actively, love her well. I am a more whole person, which is a reason that I can love her as a "verb," and because I love her that way, I am now a more whole person. In your words, Ami, I did find hope that in the end, with my true recommittment, my remorse, and every day, my actions, I can show her the love I feel for her, and she can see it so visibly that there is no missing it.
I deeply regret what I did - I let my wife down, I let my children down, I let myself down. I let the world down - I made it an uglier place, and it is ugly enough already without my help. So now I spend every day doing my best not letting my wife down, not letting my children down, not letting myself down, and trying to make the world a more beautiful place.
For the BS, I can understand how and why the notion that the FWS loved them before is hard to comprehend. I also understand how the FWS can feel that they did love their spouse. Maybe the two notions can never be reconciled. But I encourage you, as Ami did too, to look for true remorse, for true responsibility in your spouse, and allow that to build if you can.
I wish all of you love as a verb; everyone deserves it, and it is a joy to give it freely and enthusiastically.
Thank you recommitted - Your words resonated with me and lifted my spirits - I try to keep my door open and to be ready to feel the incoming love from WS - I also see a small plant of love for her growing in my heart. It all feels very fragile and raw and so much habit and history to overcome - The triggers keep intruding and ripping at me insides. I try to find quiet moments of the "now" as a place to breathe sometimes. The journey feels long and my feet and body weary and I am ready to lie down and simply sleep sometimes. But each day begins again. Letting go is good they say but .. well words don't reach my feelings inside sometimes and I still feel the cold metal of the past cutting at me and not warm feelings of love and kindness. It all feels like a river flowing along and I am swept with it and the debris of the flood along with it. Being able to keep breathing is sometimes the only priority.
I meant to reply to this yesterday but didn't get a chance.
I can say easily that I didn't love myself while in the A's. We had a very flawed M at the time with many needs unmet on both ends, but I don't attribute that to being why I cheated either. It was major flaws/weaknesses within me, Jerry. Not whether or not I lost my love for my H.
In my own belief of what love is, I hold to the notion that love can't disappear and then reappear again easily. It ebbs and flows, sometimes it's felt deeply and intimately and sometimes it's just residual and faint. But if it was ever deeply true, then it should take quite a bit of time for it to disappear completely. Maybe that's the romantic in me talking, I don't know.
I met my first love when I was 15. We dated for over a year, and I can think back on that time and smile. I can remember the many love letters he wrote me, and the warm and cozy feeling I felt when I read them. I can also remember the deep deep pain when he broke up with me and how I thought my heart would never heal. The love I felt for him took a long time to fade away. I don't still love him, as I'm a different person than I was in my teens, but I still feel a fondness for him that is reminicent of that time. It didn't just go away when I met my H, and I held onto his love letters for a few years after we were married...I finally decided as a married woman it wasn't fair to my H to hold onto those and read them and still feel that warmness in my heart when my whole heart was supposed to belong to my H.
Jerry, my own personal belief is that just because your W cheated does not mean she stopped loving you...did she act lovingly? Most definately not. Quite the opposite.
But speaking as a W who was unfaithful, I didn't love myself...it was about me, and I put up my own emotional road blocks in my M by betraying my vows to my H. When the fog cleared and I saw what I was about to lose, I felt the love for him that hadn't just vanished and then reappeared again. I hope this makes sense, I'm having trouble articulating it the way I'd like to.
I am also tortured by this issue - how could he possibly love me and treat me as he did? Over time, I have discovered several possible answers, including H's amazing ability to compartmentalize and his grandiosity/belief that he was entitled to everything. But, I think IC has given me the most believable answer but the one that is hardest to understand - he loved me "in his way." That way was insufficient.He was selfish and so wrapped up in himself that love did not have the meaning it has to a healthy committed person. I don't think he really knew how to love in a real, unselfish way but today, he is learning.
There is also terrible pain in recognizing that I accepted that cheap imitation of real love but I am also exploring the reasons I did and am becoming more whole, though it is a slow, slow process.
However accurate or not, my EXH decided that he could have not possibly love me and did what he did. That was part of his justification for ending our marriage. He determined that he had never loved me.
It is apparent to everybody that knew us prior to the affair that he did in fact love me. That showed in his actions, the fact that we spent every minute we could together, the fact that he was always talking to the guys at work and bragging about me, the gifts, the loving cards, etc.
What happened to that love.....I'll never really know.......but I do know that he wasn't treating me in a loving manner.
I believe those people who are good at compartmentalizing could easily still love their spouse, and carry on an affair. Things are divided nice and neatly into their own seperate compartments.
I don't think the love isn't there, I think it is just buried so deep inside that some of them can't seem to find it again. For my exH I do believe he loved me and even after the affair and when we seperated I think he loved me. At that time there were just other emotions such as guilt that took precedence.
How can a WS love a BS and do the things they do? Well, likely it's because they're loving according to their capacity to love.
Along the path of life, there are a lot of rocks. These rocks get kicked up by others as they pass in & out of our lives. Some rocks pass harmlessly by, others get lodged into our hearts. Sometimes we pick up a nice shiny rock and give it a place in our heart, not knowing just how embedded it will become. Before we know it, our heart is full of rocks, and our capacity to fully feel or express love is diminished.
But as far as we know, we're loving with all our hearts.
Then, something extreme happens, and we feel the weight of those rocks. We realize our diminished capacity to love. The rocks become burdensome and painful to us, and we want to remove them. But the extraction process is painful! So we either decide to just leave them there and do the best we can, working on diminished capacity, or we do whatever it takes to remove them We seek forgiveness, reconciliation, and restoration. And slowly, the rocks are dislodged. The capacity for love and the ability to know the difference between full love and something less becomes known - possibly for the first time! We are more cautious about picking up rocks, we're more careful to stay clear of those that are hurled our direction. We are more free to love fully and be loved fully.
Hello all you good people and thank you again. I would like to gather up my feelings about your kind postings:
Dear Cal: Yes, I am getting close to an edge here, you are right. Mind you I have felt close before and only found there was more to go or I had to retreat on touching the boundary. I found the scary things emerge just as you think you have overcome them - a nasty trick. My feelings just seem to well up out of no-where sometimes. Leaping into the unknown then feels impossible - And writing this I feel that may be I am a coward - I am certainly fearful but I have felt that way for a while now.
Dear dear Sun: I feel you show yourself to me and penetrate into the feelings you have and these seem to resonate with me here - I am cheered and encouraged and impressed by your understanding and how you keep struggling to know what goes on still - I understand you in this and feel you express feelings that are so much the same as my wife tells me as best she can it was/ is with her.
And you Susan again: I was with you as you describe both sides and this resonated with me too - I struggle still with the realisation that I became satisfied with what I was receiving - but isn't this a "trick" if you like of love in that we accept what we receive? What you say about your H loving as best he could seems to me to support what David is saying too (ie he was limited due to "rocks" in his heart).
Dear Kid - You mention the compartmentalising aspect which we have touched on here before. I feel that this is something that is a feature of those not "whole" in themselves (those rocks again?). Anyone with such rock limitations may be having to try extra hard in his mind to make his feelings stretch to reach out. ((Dear Kid))
Finally Dear David: You mentioned "rocks" in another response just recently and I found your description really struck home. Rocks are heavy and hard to move - and yet sometimes smooth and comfortable to pick up and hold - Yes, perhaps we even feel comforted by these when we find our hearts empty from the lack of love from others for some reason. May be we have to break open our heart to let them go.
Thank you all again - You filled my heart up a bit with some of your love.
Hello Jerry....I have often wondered if my wife loved me during her As and IMHO i dont think so,I have come to my own conclusion that love in some ways is a learned feeling,meaning that I think you can learn to love someone and then you can convince yourself you dont love that person anymore. I believe that is what my wife has done,I dont believe that love is easy, we all have to work on keeping that love alive,it seems that when we let that effort slide then we become weak and look for other ways to love or be loved ie; affairs.
I am now wondering if I do still indeed love my wife,it has almost been 2 years since d-day and it is no longer just the constant pain that I wake up with each day,it is the fact that I am terrified that maybe I do not or cannot love my wife any more because of the 2 affairs and the 15 years that I feel has been stolen from my history.
How can i love someone who has hurt me so deeply? how can I love someone that when she was getting close to haveing her As exsposed she assasinated my charecter to her family,my family and our freinds? I find that so impossible to comprehend.
..........
My mother passed away on May 27 of this year,and when my 5 brothers and I carried her to her grave I was stunned by my thoughts,some of the last words my mother said to me from her death bed were 1)I have to forgive her...2)she told me love her and most of all to show her that I love her.....(my wife) I olso remember when we laid the casket down I went to my wifes side and did not feel that I wanted her to comfort me.I dont really know why, but maybe I did not feel she loved me enough to qualify to give me that support or maybe the cuts are so deep that I will or cannot trust her with my raw emotions ever again....I really dont know.
Jerry I dont know if I made sense as I do tend to ramble....my thoughts are with you.
As always your response helped me as I feel some things in common with your situation. I felt you and your wife might be experiencing some of the self-defence that I have seen in me and my wife too. Certainly what your wife said to your relatives and friends feels as if she was suddenly finding herself in a terrible reality and trying to convince them (really herself of course) of the sense of it all.
Like you I also feel I have had large parts of my family history "stolen".. perhaps "defiled", "degraded" might be more like I feel. In the end and right now I have a deep sense of dissapointment and let down. I heave a big sigh now and again when I feel this.
Also like you I am deeply doubtful if I can actually make a deep loving relationship of marriage with this woman again. I simply don't feel that kind of commitment. I feel myself creeping towards her and it feels a bit like I am approacing a preying mantice sometimes. I fear I am going to destroy myself in doing this, and perhaps her too.
And, finally, also like you I feel I don't trust her with my heart any more.
So much is broken between us now it feels as if the road between us is blocked by huge rocks - and some, perhaps also lodged in my heart too. I feel weighed down almost to death itself. Then I breathe again and realise life is going on and it is worthwhile. This is all.
may you be safe and well, contented and happy Dave, and family too, including your wife
I hear the pain in your posts...struggling with whether to stay, return to, or leave, your wife, it is a hard decision...
I hear the BUT in your post...and Jerry that BUT is the bridge that will decide what you do...as much as you want to cross the river and be happy with your wife the BUT is keeping you on the other side and Jerry that is OK...you don't have to go back to your wife....You have to do what is best for Jerry.. You can forgive your wife for what she has done...you can love her as the mother of your children...it is easy to return to the safe comfortable life with your wife but Jerry YOU do not feel safe and You need to listen to that voice... You are NOT the one breaking up the family..and don't feel guilty because others may say you are...they have NOT walked in your shoes...
I sometimes think that agonizing over a decision that your mind has already made but your heart struggles with is the hardest thing to do...
Life is so short, choose to be contented and see where that leads you.
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
I think that this question of love for the BS during the A is so complecated, that even trying to understand it or accept it is beyond me. A loving thing would be to tell your spouse you want out of the marriage, not to destroy them. But, I guess that's what makes them selfish, right?
The next thing that pops into my mind is, can that selfish person (who already has that character "flaw" in them) really change that? It takes a lot of work and a real concious effort to change something that you have most likely had since you were a child.
I too, just don't know if I am capable of loving someone who did something so mean and cruel not only to me, but to everyone around them. It's the lack of consideration for those around you regardless if you love them or not. I'm sure we all have had people in our lives at one time or another, that we didn't care too much about. Does that mean we don't respect them and treat them like sh*t? Just my thoughts on this.
Isn't it just like a slap in the face to hear your FWS say that they did love you during the A. My H's full blown physical A lasted 6 weeks before d day. When I try to depict the love during this time, I cringe. All I can remember is not being able to do anything right. I recall noticing my H escape early to work to email OW, being late after meetings because he was at his work place to email OW again and a very, very short fuse where I was concerned. I can't remember being loved during this time frame.
They manifest things in their own mind to excuse their behavior. It is almost like if the words "I love you" come out of their mouth that a definition is needed to explain the meaning of love and what it means at that time.
When we evaluated our whole 26 year marriage after d day, we uncovered many more betrayals that spanned over 20 some years. His meaning of love was also flawed through most of our marriage. He felt EA's were OK because he didn't have intercourse with the women he sought sexual attention from.
When I considered what marriage meant to me it was totally different than his definition. I was living in the mind set that outside sexual interactions with the opposite sex were off limits because of our marriage vows. I had no trouble accepting the responsibility of raising our kids and looking forward to retirement with my H after because that is the life both of us created. However during this time he was scouting out sexual attention from other women in an inappropriate way.
The definition of love has to be defined often after an A. That is why in-depth communication is required as a must to sift through our minds in an open way so we can honestly understand what is going on in each others minds. Then what ever we talked about has to be put to action and observed by us so we can hear and see the change. Guessing or taking it for granted in the past didn't work so why would it now. Slowly a whole new relationship has to be developed together. That is why devoted unconditional communicating has to be unselfishly given to build and earn this new relationship. The time and effort is closely scrutinized and measured to start the slow process of rebuilding a level of trust that can be the foundation of this new relationship.
A betrayed spouse has no choice but to follow their own perspective of the situation and act accordingly. Jerry your journey may seem long at times but it is your journey so maintain your integrity and love yourself first.
Jerry,I found out after three years of trying to reconcile from my ex's first affair back in 2001 that she never fully loved me after her first affair.
I tried my best to work things out but she eventually left in 2004 and we finally divorced just over a year ago.
In my experience and from reading here and being on SI for years its usually never the same once your spouse has a affair.
I read many people stories who stayed and things never seem the same,its such a huge burden to bear for the rest of a persons life.
Bear in mind that this is just my observation and some do make it but I have to ask would they deep down be better off just cutting their losses and moving on?
Only the person themselves really knows that answer but you sound like you are stuck in time and your life is passing you by.
I hope you find the answer that will truly make you happy.
For me I wish now that I had moved on after d-day one and reclaimed my life sooner, I paid much too high a price to make things work and would be so much further down the road to happiness and self discovery had I taken the step to leave after she decided to risk it all and throw our love away.
Here is how sick WS thinking is - H says he didn't tell me BECAUSE he loved me - didn't want to hurt me, rob me of peace of mind, make me feel that I didn't matter to him.
Sickening and twisted. Today, he understands that he was selfish and just wanted to take himself off the hook. What kills me is that the cheating creep thought he was such a prize and he didn't want to deprive me of that prize.
Hello Pat, Thank you for responding and I appreciate your words. You know today I heard someone say in a talk that perhaps fear is what comes up when we are not able to accept things we see in ourselves - By this I understand that if we can accept even the feelings of discomfort in either leaving or staying then this opens up ourselves to living better in the world. My problem is a balance of fears though - Fear of staying and fear of going so I am not sure if I am not accepting one or the other right now. If you see I feel afraid to re-unite with her and also afraid of leaving too. I can see the things that bind us and the things that I feel that push me away. There are feelings on both sides and I simply can't seem to find direction even if I accept the fears. Not much help then accepting the fears. Someone else said in another talk a while ago that eventually we become moved one way or another and it is ok to wait for that motivation. I have to be comfortable with the discomfort of the fence it seems a while more yet.
Dear Jetta, Yes the selfish or other flaw in the WS is something that may be changed I feel. I notice how much I have changed even through this experience myself. So, yes I believe change is possible with a willing and open heart. How much change.. well.. I suppose that depends and varies. Certainly once people become caught up in an A we can see how normal reason seems to go out of the window and this is a feature of our human nature. Human flaws are also some of the things that allow us all to be open to change aren't they. May be this makes me a foolish optimist but not really as I see that some change and some don't and this is reality. The difficult thing in the end is to take an action one way or another - but how do we decide. I keep saying to myself to try to make it work one more time in little steps - I see the logic by fear each move. May be I just have to try a move and see how I feel - May be that is all one can do - One step at a time?
Amber you speak so wisely and so true - Thank you. I can add nothing to the complete words you say. Thank you. I only wonder if you were ever in my situation of being on the fence and how you moved one way or another?
Boromir - Yes, for sure we make justification and explanation for our choices it is true. And yes we all are never the same after such big events. I sometimes wonder if changing partners is very different from staying with it - The burdens may be much the same. But I understand your feelings for sure - I know where you have been I reckon.
Susan - I feel your indignant anger in your response. But you are right of course in that we all make justifications for ourselves and, almost, make the picture of the world the way we want all the time - Even when we believe we are "seeing sense" or "reality" when we "wake up" "out of the fog" I am still left wondering if we can trust our judgements. In the end reading your comment and seeing the others above I am left wondering if the only thing we can trust is how we feel inside ie not thinking but just sensing our way forward. I am wondering what you really feel inside apart from any residual anger - Is there real love now for WS?
Thank you all for your help which I greatly appreciate and use to help me on my way
I did sit on the fence for a long time. I didn't have one particular defining moment but I had many convincing consistencies that motivate me and allowed me to partake in the moment.
I have to admit though that when PMS hit I usually convinced myself that he had far too many flaws for me to accept back. That is when I communicated to him loud and strong about all the reasons why I should bail out. The fog that he was in after the A seemed to turn to me after he committed.
Measuring a behavior that was normal for so many years took time, patience and tons of communicating before I could determine if I could possible ever trust him again.
Jerry watch in your quiet place of personal safety until you are ready. What ever choice you make is going to be good. Your W has to know what a deep thinker and gift she has just by your cautious nature. She must know you care about yourself and her deeply to be in this much turmoil about giving your love back to her. The answer will come to you.
The greatest gift in life you can give is your love.
