My initial post was a request for advice in how or whether to respond to H's e-mails.  That is now moot as he called tonight.  I did intercept e-mails planning and booking a trip for them both to Melbourne next weekend.  Having this information made it really difficult for me to believe that our recent conversations and e-mails were anything but an attempt to pave the way for his return home having still not ended the A. 

 

Also it came up in conversation that he has discovered that I was appointed an MS Outlook delegate on both his computer systems.  The discovery was made because our company system server failed and bounced back the autoforwarded e-mails.  The company one was set up by him many years ago as a result of us working together and me needing access to his calendar and contacts.  I set up the other on his project computer prior to leaving Australia.  He has removed me as delegate on both his systems and believes he has eliminated my ability to intercept e-mails.  By removing me as delegate he has eliminated my ability to access his Outlood account directly; however, they have not discovered the Rules that actually forward the e-mails between them to me.  at least not yet.

 

Upon his telling me I had been removed as a delegate I divulged that I knew about the Melbourne trip.  I have told him if he goes to Melbourne with her that he is not welcome to join us in Barbados.  It is his option.  Ultimately, at least for me it will be the difference between M and D.

 

There are now e-mails going back and forth that seem just a bit on the panicky side, the last one beginning with "Bloody Hell!"   Based on our conversations and e-mails he is still deep in the fog so it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

 

I did tell him that with each passing day that there is not a firm and detailed NC in place the possibility of saving our M decreases.  By next Friday I will know exactly where I stand.  If he goes to Melbourne it is over.  If he doesn't there is still a dim glimmer of hope.

 

One other thing, I told him that one step towards rebuilding trust would be to reinstate me as a delegate.  He said that he couldn't do that because I had already violated his trust.  The audacity of that statement overwhelms me!

Chris,

The fog is a funny thing isnt it...how they see nothing wrong with what they are doing, and how they somehow feel wronged for being "found out". This absolutely amazes me! But it is the nature of the beast as they say.

If him going on a trip with OW means the end of the marriage, and you have told him this, are you prepared to back up your words with actions? If not, then I am going to caution you...do not say it if you do not mean it and cannot follow through with it. Are you ready for D? Think about this very seriously...not with your heart and in the heat of the moment becuase you are hurt....I mean are you ready to let go of him completely, in every sense of the word? Because if you're not, then you are not ready to make that ultimatium. Ultimatiums only work for you, if you are willing to follow through with the outcome whatever it may be. This is not an easy decision to make, I know. But everyone has a breaking point...a bottom line...is this yours?

((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal, although I have not told him what his trip decision will mean to me, I have made that decision in my heart and mind.  Through the conversations earlier this week and tonight, I have truly come to peace with it.  I have told him that I will no longer expend my emotion and energy on our relationship and there is no need for further discussions about us until an NC is in place.  As I said in my post earlier this week on HH, I no longer question whether I am worthy of his love, I question whether he is worthy of mine.  It is not out of hurt or anger that I have become ready to accept D as the end of this saga.  There is a part of me I didn't even realize that I had lost.  A vitality, zest for life, that inner flame of youth that has been buried and doused with adult responsibility and parenthood.  But mostly extinguished by working so hard for so long to earn the love of a man, a love that should have been freely given, that exhausted me and made me weary.  I have been adapting myself and denying my needs in order to "earn" his love.  I am regaining a vital part of myself that is becoming better and stronger that it was before.  I am a peace with myself, love myself, and am happy with myself.  These feelings are no longer dependent upon receiving his love and approval, I have found it within ME!

His revelations of ONS's and prozzie encounters make me sad and I pity him.  What I see now is a man who has a huge void within himself to fill.  He has a need to be with someone in order to fill that void and when I was not available or focusing on my needs instead of his, he strayed from our M to try to fill that void.  What he has yet to discover is no one will ever be able to fill that void for him, he needs to fill it from within or any relationship he has in the future (whether it is ours or with someone else) is doomed to eventually fail.  He has done a very good job throughout the years of hiding this part of himself (or more acurately lacking in himself) from me.  He has presented a facade to to world and that facade is beginning to crumble.

Should he choose Melbourne I will wish him well and pray that he can indeed find his own happiness.  If he chooses Barbados it will keep a glimmer of hope alive for our M but it will be a long, arduous journey, not just for our M, but for him personally.  I have fully dedicated myself to my therapy, and though I have not completed it, I am on the last legs of my personal quest for self.

Those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

If he doesn't want you to access his email, there likely is a reason.


K

Chris,

Audacity indeed!

Unfortunately, trying to turn the tables is so typical.. and unfortunately often can result in the BS being the only one feeling guilty, especially when it is done early on just after D-day or even before. You appear to be well beyond falling for that and show more evidence of being stronger with each post.

I know things will turn out well for you regardless of what your H does.

Stay strong and do what you feel you need to do to protect yourself.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Take care and God bless.

Len

Chris

I am with Len...you are getting stronger..

as a side thought, I wouldn't tell WS about the rules? on the computer yet..

((((hugs)))

Pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Fortunately for me neither one of them understand the difference between delegates and rules.  I am not even sure they know that the Rules feature exists.

Of course there is no way I will tell him about the Rules.  Let him figure it out. 

(Edited to include)

It just occurred to me how far in the fog my H actually is.  He knows how my mind works.  In fact, he often turns to me for innovative ways to work around obstacles or to pick my brain as to what software solutions may be out there.  He knows that if I don't know and think something can be done I will dig until I find out.  Given that he knows this I am amazed that he has not investigated further to verify that I had not done anything else regarding electronic monitoring.  He also seems to have completely forgotten that I set up a series of rules (several years ago) to manage his e-mail account to flag and/or distribute his incoming e-mail for him so that he can easily identify e-mails needing immediate attention and divert those where he is cc'd or part of a distribution list to other folders.

Chris,

I will echo what Len and Pat said, you are getting stronger, and I have no doubt you will make it through all of this one way or another

I felt a lot like you, in that I knew in my heart and mind it was over when I got the report from the PI because I knew he had continued to lie and cheat and that was my breaking point....the trip is yours. The PI's report gave me the strength to do what I needed to do for myself and the knowledge that I was 100% sure I was doing the right thing. I had lost all hope of salvaging the relationship so I was able to let go completely. The only difference was that I told my WH this was my breaking point, that if he cheated on me again I would divorce him.

However, I did not expect my WH to drop OW on d-day 2 and beg for another chance. I thought he would be happy that I ended it and he would be free to be with OW and smoke his pot. I was shocked that he wanted me and the kids when all he did for the last 5 years was prove otherwise. I didnt know what to do. I told him he could earn another chance but I wasnt giving him one. If he wanted to earn another chance he had to have NC in place and he had to stop smoking pot, and no more lies! For the first 3-6 months I do believe he tried. Things were going really well, although I did not trust him yet....I was skeptical, adn with good reason...I sensed he was not being 100% truthful. My gut-o-meter kept telling me something was wrong, and it was right. Although WH had refrained from smoking for the first 3-6 months he never had any intentions of quitting and keeping his promise. So again he is out the door.

What Im trying to say is have a plan either way, just incase it doesnt go as YOU expected. If he suddenly becomes remorseful, like my WH did, and so many others, what will you do? Will he get another chance...will he have to earn another chance...or is he out of chances? I didnt really think about this beforehand...I really thought it was over. But as they say "never say never". I am just thinking of you and what you need, and as everyone here knows, if your WS is truly remorseful and honest,a nd willing to do whatever it takes, the marriage can make it...and be even better. But that is a BIG "if", and only you can decide if it is a risk you are willing to take if the situation should present itself. The truth is you never how the WS is going to react when faced with the reality of losing everything.

((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))...I think you are doing wonderfully.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Dear Chris, I have to echo what you and Len have said about the audacity of your H to accuse you of violating trust. How blind can he be to what he has done to you and continues to do on a daily basis? The mind reels.

Your situation is particularly heartbreaking and agonizing. I know for me it would be too much to bear; I would have broken months ago. Your strength and your smarts through all of this really have been an inspiration. I have no doubt that whatever the outcome, you will be resilient and well.

I've been searching through your recent posts for the interchange of emails between you and your H...kind of the he said/she said one...and I can't find it, so excuse the inability to remember it precisely. I was very struck by something I kept hearing between the lines from your H. And its stayed with me, I guess in a way that leads me to ask if you've heard that underlying message from him, too.

Your H makes repeated references to your emotional distance, no open arms of welcome, not being able to understand or see your feelings. Certainly, Chris, you have every right to be withdrawn, angry, aloof, on the sidelines watching, waiting, etc. But I often find myself jumping into other people's shoes to understand more fully where they're coming from (sometimes that is to my detriment). If I shield myself from a natural inclination to see things from your perspective and try to only look at your H's words, I really hear this man aching and begging to see your heart. Maybe he lost the right to see it after all the transgressions, past and present. As someone who's been battling her own ability to be emotionally vulnerable, I am more than empathetic to your situation. But I keep thinking about what he said. And I'm not going to a place of judgment and right v. wrong. Your H, like mine and many others, have emotional disfigurements that have created neediness, selfishness, self-protecting behaviors. I guess part of me is reminded of Ka's situation, where Ka's H was leaning towards the notion of D because he truly hadn't felt/seen/heard a lot of what Ka has had inside of her until she gave him that really big long letter where she let it all out: the anger, the agony AND the love and desire for the M to succeed.

I write this to you with love and compassion. I am a HUGE Chris fan and will be in your corner whichever direction life takes you. But I felt compelled to share what your H's words keep echoing still in my brain. As deeply lost as he is, I hear some internal struggle within him. Do you hear it too? BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Yes Blue, I hear his words, and I do know he is struggling, and it breaks my heart to know that if I leave him it will be the single most hurtful thing I could ever do; however; he is still deep in the fog and sitting firmly on the fence.   

If you read the thread http://www.network54.com/Forum/90639/thread/1190603455/last-1190828435/The+Return+-+and+the+saga+continues it details the events about return home and the couple of days following.  At this point he is choosing to remember only what he wants to about his last visit home and yet once again is focusing only on the negative.

I did reach out to him many times during his visit home and things started progressing to the point I could see the fog lifting to some extent.  In one of my threads I mentioned wishing I could find a flamethrower to burn off the remaining fog.   Even taking him back to the airport was a good and promising experience. 

Since his return to Aus there has been little to no personal communication, especially after I told him that I did not want to hear about activities that included “the usual gang” as that included the OW and I really didn’t want to hear about him being out with her, even if it was in a group setting.  He ignored phone calls and e-mails so I quit trying.  When I decided to offer the kids and him the option to join me in Barbados for Christmas I tried to contact him and was ignored.  The only reason he called me was because of work and I took that opportunity to tell him about Barbados.  He then went into a snit because he had not been consulted and felt that including him was an afterthought.  He believes that I decided to take the trip in order to punish him and put him between a rock and a hard place.  He cannot or will not that my trip is about removing myself from the rock and the hard place he put me in.  He again went incommunicado.  He called last week wanting to discuss us and has grabbed and held onto “the airport reception” as his reason to believe that I am not willing to address our marital issues.  He cannot understand why his statement in the car was not equal to an NC agreement or even that there was no reason at all for me to trust his word with no other proof.

I think his contact this past week and a half has been a result of what is probably a combination of two things or a third and ominous reason.

1.         I am no longer pursuing him.  I am not trying to pull him back to me and his marriage.  I am no longer trying to prove myself worthy of his love or earn his love.  I no longer need his love or support in order to feel good about myself.  I am a wonderful, intelligent, independent woman with a bright at promising future (even at the ripe old age of 48  ).  His being part of that future is no longer critical to my happiness, if he is in my life it will be a bonus and a blessing. 

2.         He is being faced with the end of the project and returning to the States permanently.  His fantasy life is coming to an end and he is beginning to try to pave his way back into the reality of his real life.

3.         He is trying to push me to the point of asking for a D so that he doesn’t have to be “the bad guy”.  I say this because in the last e-mail I received from him included the statement “In any case, I am just not sure I have it in me to go through the steps, but I am still thinking about it.”

In any event, he is clearly demonstrating that he is still trying to shift blame and justify his behavior by saying that it is something that I have done that has caused him to behave in the manner he has.  He has known since D-day, and been reminded, that the only thing I need to give me hope for our M is a NC agreement and that the longer it takes to put the NC in place the less hope there is for our M.  I too have read between the lines and I hear his pain and his struggles and see him reaching out in some ways, but he is still unwilling to take full ownership of his actions and seems to feel no remorse.  This is evidenced that he says he takes ownership of the A because it was a choice he made, BUT the A is a result of what he feels are our marital issues, which of course are all about how I have failed him.

I am conflicted at the moment and struggling with keeping the boundaries I have put in place to maintain my integrity and self respect.

I love him and I believe the A is a symptom of much deeper issues that he needs to resolve.  The major one being that he is trying to fill a void in himself and avoiding his fears of being alone.  Every time I have failed in filling making him feel that void is gone he has gone outside the M to do so.  Unfortunately, no matter how hard he tries, until he can fill that void from within himself, our M, or any other relationship he may have in the future, is doomed to failure.  To leave him before he discovers this through IC I feel I am abandoning him in his greatest time of need.

On the other hand I am in midst of self discovery and am building my self esteem, self respect, and self worth.  To accept his continued disrespect and disregard for me is to abandon myself in my greatest time of need.  I am not sure he will be able to accept the “new and improved” me. 

So for lack of anything better I remain in limbo.

All in all we seem to be in a stand off.  He is unwilling to end the A unless I fix our marital issues and I see no reason to go through the work it will take to resolve our marital issues while he is continuing in the A.  Above all I am exhausted in trying to make any progress at all by discussing our situation with him only to have him rehash it with the OW so as to get her advice on how to proceed.  It truly is a sick situation.

Has he made a decision yet?
I know he has a few more hours....just curious if he made the choice yet.
You are quite the woman Chris. You may think you aren't strong, but wow...you are amazing!!!!

Denise

"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"

Not a single peep. Oh well