Tiffany and I have been working through Torn Asunder, the book and now the workbook. In the book, Dave Carder writes that it's important that both spouses get angry. I believe the quote is "if you don't get angry, you can't get better".
While I know many of the BSs who participate in this forum have expressed anger at one point or another, I'm curious. Have your spouses also expressed anger? If so, did you view it as healthy, take it personally, maybe both?
Do you agree that the WS needs to get angry in order to get over the affair?
Or, maybe, does even this line of thought make you angry?
I am one of those that experienced a short period of intense white-hot anger on d-day and then only flashes of feeling from time to time that I would not call anger - Indeed, I may be unusual but the anger never over-came me and I always experienced it as only some surges of intense emotion and was never out of control. But I am that kind of person.
Some I have met have asked me about anger and expected me to show more. I have searched for this and can only locate sensations of underlying resistance to acceptance and a feeling that I have to push WS wife away. I don't feel this as anger as others describe it. Anger as described to me by others is something that seems to overcome normal controls and make people do dangerous and hurtful things. Generally I have not experienced that kind of anger. May be it is still buried deep down but my history in my life has been without much anger at any time so may be this is simply how I work.
I have experienced all the other processes that are described in the books around bereavement and loss ie like denial etc.. That was all there, but anger as others have described, not a lot for me. May be this is unusual.
It depends on what/who the anger is directed towards, the OP, themselves, the situation, I can see the anger there. But is it anger direct towards the BS that we are talking about? I don't know if I can think of any affair related issues where I feel the WS has the right to be angry at the BS, there could be some, I just can't think of any.
I think my STBX had brief bouts of anger. His anger seemed to be a combination of being at himself, at the situation that he created and at the fact that this was not going to be an easy fix. But his anger was brief ... and often it came out because I was pushing him to speak to me about the affair. When we were in MC, I vividly remember her asking him where is anger was ... that he had many reasons (some that were not affair-related) to be angry ... and what he was doing with his anger.
I believe that he suppresses alot of emotions (primary and secondary) and sadly, that didn't do our marriage any good when we were attempting to reconcile. As our MC said, "you can't experience highs in life, if you don't also experience lows". STBX lives his life on a straight line ... little highs and little lows (blips on the graph). One of the biggest swings in his life came during and after the affair - but even then, he did more suppressing than he did expressing.
I believe I would have been able to empathize with him if I had seen him hit some lows (in the affair recovery process) on his own - as opposed to when I pushed him to talk about things or when I was hitting a low myself. But this is who he is ... long before I came into his life (and when his first marriage ended) he suppressed things as well - and to his own detrement. More than anything, I find it sad.
Yes, the last response has made me think some more on this - My wife expressed anger both on D-day and on occasions since - Her anger seems to come up when things are not going her way and she seems to use it as a habit for defence when things are getting difficult and threatening to open up her vulnerability. I have heard of this and seen it in others and so I know this kind of anger - It is as if the energy is a good defence and distraction. So, yes, she has had anger and perhaps WSs do that. But, again I see this as something rather unhelpful that wells up and overcomes her and our ability to relate - It is a bit like a fiery wall going in. I am very aware of when this happens and still find it quite scary.
I am also prompted by the last response to ask again if I am suppressing as us menfolk are supposed to do so well. I honestly don't think so. But I have become aware of how I may not always have expressed my feelings clearly enough to wife - And certainly she did not to me both before and during her A. I make a difference here between suppression (to me) and communication (to others) ie I always knew what I was feeling but I may not have communicated things clearly, particularly negative or dangerous feelings about our relationship. She was seriously bad at this however as far as I can see now. I did not express anger in the past or much even since d-day because there has not been a whole lot of it going on for me (relatively to what I have seen in others here). I am working on communicating better these days.
Jerry... my STBX was married once before. His ex-wife had an affair on him and left the marriage. Instead of working through the emotional turmoil that he most certainly would be feeling - he swept it under the rug. I remember when we met (about a year after his wife left him) and thinking to myself that he seemed very well-adjusted for someone who had just been through all of this pain. That was not the case ... he didn't give himself permission to feel and work through all that was churning inside of him.
Fast forward to his affair. This was his (at least) second opportunity in life to look inward, to experience a range of emotion and to evolve (for lack of a better term). Instead, he retreated back into his comfort zone. I know it must be difficult to step outside of a comfort zone and have to face/experience things that are overwhelming. However, when the inability to look inward and improve on your coping skills leads you to destroy the most important things in your life ... then this pattern will repeat itself in the future. He has given me no reason to believe otherwise.
My point here is that suppressing emotion is not a 'bad' thing .... but suppressing emotion to the extent that you become stuck in a holding pattern in your life, is self-destructive. You will never be 'happy' or fullfilled as long as you don't allow yourself to 'feel' and be heard ... and those around you can't read your mind or fill you up when you don't have a clear idea of what it is that you need.
<<This was his (at least) second opportunity in life to look inward, to experience a range of emotion and to evolve (for lack of a better term). Instead, he retreated back into his comfort zone. I know it must be difficult to step outside of a comfort zone and have to face/experience things that are overwhelming. However, when the inability to look inward and improve on your coping skills leads you to destroy the most important things in your life ... then this pattern will repeat itself in the future. He has given me no reason to believe otherwise.
My point here is that suppressing emotion is not a 'bad' thing .... but suppressing emotion to the extent that you become stuck in a holding pattern in your life, is self-destructive. You will never be 'happy' or fullfilled as long as you don't allow yourself to 'feel' and be heard ... and those around you can't read your mind or fill you up when you don't have a clear idea of what it is that you need.>>
Kara...you hit the nail on the head as I see it regarding me and my WH's situation. I see this with my WH too, which is why we seem to be getting nowhere, or at least that is how I feel. WH is stuck in a phase (self-pitty). He suppresses his emotions (very passive-agressive), and always has, long before he met me as well. When he shows emotion for other things I just want to scream, why cant he show his emotions regarding our situation instead? Avoidance and denail....getting high to mask his feelings...and engulfing himself in outside interests (such as politics and anti religious movements)...these are what he uses to not deal with his emtotions and passively-agressively takes his anger out by fighting for such outside causes that have nothing to do with the A or our marriage. If he focuses his anger there then he doesnt have to face it regarding his personal choices and consequences for said choices. So he never directly deals with his personal issues...nothing is solved, and he remains stuck.
To answer David's question, I believe that some people do get angrier than others, and some show their anger more than others, and some show no anger at all, depending on their nature. But I do believe it is in there somewhere no matter, maybe even hidden deep down and needs to come out in both the BS and WS. I suppressed my anger a lot too because I was afraid it would drive my WH away....but I found my voice by looking inside of me, taking care of me, and letting it out. I beleive everyone needs to do this. Remaining silent does no one any good. It can even cause physical symptoms when held in. But I also think the way in which anger is expressed, or comes out, makes a difference as well....MC is usually a safer place where anger can be shared in a more constructive and less destructive manner. Pretty hard to do at home in the heat of the moment at times. Then the anger can be discussed and even undertood...and then let it go. I feel that is how we move forward through the anger, through the fear...and emerge on the other side. If it is never released...never dealt with, I feel it is pretty hard to move forward from it. Avoidance and denial do not work. So yes, I see the release of anger as healthy.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jan 9, 2008 8:12 AM
In our case, I had hidden some of my past from David. In so doing, I put an invisible wall between us that frustrated David to no end. That breach in our relationship made the field ripe for an affair given the "right" circumstances. Of course, I don't accept responsibility for his decisions related to the affair. My past doesn't excuse the choices he made. But he had every right to be angry about my contribution to the lack of emotional intimacy in our relationship. It is a tough pill to swallow as a BS looking inward.
>What would the WS's be getting "angry" about? Not following your line of thinking here i guess...
Tiffany's already explained what happend with our relationship. I was "angry" toward what I felt was her contribution that led to the lack of intimacy between us that festered within my soul for several years. I was angry that I had set myself up as someone that she could not be totally truthful with. I was angry at myself for the very acts I'd committed against myself, against our marriage, and against God. And speaking of God, I was angry at Him too; that He would even allow me to behave like that. I questioned His providence in all of it, and even questioning Him made me angry too. In many ways I was like a two year old, standing with my fist in the air, just angry in general at the raw deal I'd been dealt.
I can't really say what other WSs may experience anger about, but that was my experience.
I definately experienced and expressed anger, from the moment of confirmation of the affair. My wife also shared some of her anger, mostly toward the OM at that point, but also anger toward herself.
While I was being unfaithful I felt angry that my H was so distant from me and wouldn't contribute to the M, even after I begged him to. I was angry that he had "forced me" into being vulnerable to another man's attentions and compliments because he wasn't giving them to me. This of course was my internal justifications for being unfaithful.
Shortly after DDay I was angry with him for the same reasons listed above, because I was still pretty deeply in the fog although not "in love" with any of the men I'd slept with. I was mostly in love with the fantasy life I'd created for myself that let me escape from the lonliness of my M. I was much more in shock to have reality slapping me in the face and my family being ripped apart, and facing the fact that it was because of my own actions, ultimately. Having to tell my D, only 3 at the time, that Mommy couldn't spend the night at the house and be there when she woke in the morning was enough to make the sadness and guilt override the anger.
As the fog lifted, I didn't feel justified in being angry because I saw the responsibility for the A's falling solidly in my court, no matter how my H had contributed to the weaknesses in our M. So it wasn't until several years after DDay when I was still facing the residual pain and guilt of the A's that I would get furious at myself for allowing me to even walk down that road. But (maybe since I'm a woman) my anger was muffled by a LOT of sadness and guilt that came in the form of buckets of tears.
I didn't feel much anger at any of the OM because I'd been a willing participant and didn't delude myself into believing I meant much more to any of them than a piece of meat that was willing to sleep with them.
I think that it is really important for people to honor their feelings no matter how juvenile they may be. Often those juvenile feelings are an expression of those unmet childhood or even adult needs. And, its our socialization that teaches us to box them up, control them, and not address them. When they come back, they come back raging in the form of an affair or some other blow out. Maybe cancer or some health issue, migraines, drug dependency, etc.
Every time I got angry as the BS I kept holding the little things inside, not expressing them trying to control them, not talking about how those bad thoughts chipped away at me all day, and then I would blow up with a huge, really mean, hurtful screaming projectile anger vomit at my WS.
I have given my H permission to express his anger and frustration over this whole process. I think it is fair to believe that a WS could get as frustrated after 7 months of the recovery process slowing things down, taking us off track, popping in unexpectedly on a vacation, etc. etc. And, to address it as an acknowledgement that its part of the process and not a failing on my part or some choice I'm making to hurt him and remind him of what he did, but that its just there and it needs to be dealt with is ok with me. If he does it "wrong" and gets mad at me first because that's the only way he knows how to express it, that's ok with me. As long as it opens a door for discussion.
He hasn't gotten mad at me, but he has let me know when the screaming is too much or that he's frustrated, that's always an opportunity for me to reassure him that just because I'm sad or mad or frustrated doesn't mean I'm leaving him and we build better communication and trust with each of those small incidents.
At this point, I equate the recovery process to recovering from an illness. My H was very sick a few years back so I understand this process. We didn't know what he had, how long he would be sick, or if he would die. There were times where I thought he was faking or taking advantage of the situation, that he enjoyed laying on the couch being served hand and foot by me, and having the time off from work. And, when he finally got diagnosed it still took 2 months for the medication to take effect so I was still working, commuting, and doing all of the household chores. All of them. When I was tired and had nowhere to turn I would get frustrated, mad, and blame him. If we were in a car accident and I was driving and he broke his leg and it took 7 months to fully recover, I know I would get frustrated and angry with the process, that I would direct it at him from time to time, even if it was my fault that he was hurt. I would hate it that it was my fault, but at some point I'd be thinking "all right already, get over it, let's move on, and get back to normal!" I'd know it wasn't his fault either...or I might think it was that he just needed to suck it up, or do more therapy, eat better, and stop smoking so he could heal faster. So, I think that my WS should naturally get to that point and when he does I want him to discuss it with me, not hide it from me. He will only feel guilty later or begin to resent me and then the whole cycle starts again.
The reality was he was sick and tired of how the illness made him ineffective and unable to help around the house, it embarrassed him to be served hand and foot to have to be that needy. (Just as I am sick of being distracted, thinking about the A all the time, being ineffective at work, etc, etc.) He hated it so much that he thought if it lasted much longer or if they didn't come up with a diagnosis that he would just kill himself. I didn't tell him my frustrations and he didn't talk about his, we just kept going about our daily business waiting for a diagnosis. We had an amazing opportunity to get mad at each other and then talk about it. We didn't do that and it was almost our undoing.
My only caveat to that is that there are some rules and boundaries for how to express your anger and that there is trust and respect that at the end you will discuss and resolve the issues that arise from being mad. You don't get to hit each other, verbally abuse each other, etc etc. But, I think its ok to yell as long as the yelling is followed by discussion and maybe a little make up sex. I wish I could learn how to fight a little better because make up sex is quite fun!
Early on in our recovery I turned to books for answers to explain why d day happened. Later we found this site and I found even more wisdom and peace.
I remember reading a book and some words impacted me drastically. The words said something to the effect that "Avoiding Conflict" was a sure ticket to divorce. I can't remember the name of the book or author but these words made such a difference to me. How can a marriage survive without honest communication???????????
Later in our recovery we started reading and participating on this board. The further wisdom I accumulated impacted me with more useful knowledge. I think the old poster that said to me Anger=Fear and Fear=Hurt was Diego Don. These words are still ingrained in my mind.
We buried my mother this week. For many years our relationship had barely existed because she was so angry Dad had entrusted his faith in me to take care of his needs before he died in 2002.
My mom left my dad for OM in 1994. Me and a few siblings had to place him in a nursing home because the combination of the stress and a hereditary disease he had made him unable to stay by himself.
Mom turned sick a year and a half ago and had softened towards me about a year and a half before that.
We did manage to have a polite, cordial, and loving relationship before she passed. However never did we communicate out the anger she lashed out at me after her d day. Nor did she apologize for the abandonment she inflicted onto me to avoid honest communication. Our family divided and separated into closed little groups because of the hard feelings. I came from a family of nine.
When d day hit me late June of 2002. I had lived through the betrayal of my mother and the betrayal of my husband almost seemed like more than I could bear. Much to my surprise I did live through it. The journey was long and hard with many new discoveries and added betrayals.
The importance of uncovering the truth behind "Anger" is so important. Almost always "Hurt" lies at the base of that anger. "Fear" is the insecurity in the middle of the equation.
I considered myself an insecure person and excused so much of my H's behavior because I thought he was such a secure person. Hidden behind his domineering and aggressive personality were hidden insecurities I tried to fix. Unlike the betrayal of my mother I chose to express my anger openly and often to my H. My H's "Anger" also triggered me to get to the bottom of many discussions.
It is clear to me that honest communication is essential to a healthy marriage and that "Anger" has to be addressed and not let to fester. Life is too short to "Avoid Conflict".
Yes Amber - Anger, fear and hurt - Strangely just before I came to my PC just now I had been sitting with my wife whilst she did some things in the kitchen and she said something about someone at work needing to be happy with what they had. This brought up a surge in me of "well, you were not happy with what you had" and I sat with that for a few minutes as I noticed that with it came a surge of anger.. something I do not generally feel. So, I then said to her "Well, you have never been happy with what you have had" and I said it without any pointedness. At least I communicated. But I did not tell her of my anger. Perhaps that was not communicating. But I did sit and watch the anger subside and dissipate. That was 10 minutes ago. So there is a real anger moment. And yes, at the base of it for me is something profoundly hurtful and fear-making about not being cherished, appreciated, respected even - Well, not being loved - And that is somewhere in my reaction to my adultery experience from WS wife. Mind you, and I read this also a couple of days ago - One of the 4 basic realities one psychologist holds for his patients coming from many years experience is that we are all basically alone - And I must get used to not expecting too much from relationship, perhaps?
H and I both have dysfunctional families of origin. Both dealt badly with anger, but in different ways. H and I both learned anger and confrontation were things to avoid, and we each became quite adept at it. When we dated and married, we actually had quite a lot in common so the incidence of disagreement was minimal. However, when we came to those odd moments of not agreeing and perched on confrontation, we deftly were able to maneuver the topic or situation in another direction. But what ended up happening more than I realized was that when I had an opinion or stance on something that H didn't agree with, he more and more reverted towards bottling up himself, his anger and his disappointment. As that grew, his need to not confront me and his desire to engage others where he didn't have confrontation rose. There are additional elements that led to his A, but this was a big part of what was happening.
H this past year found a book called: Crucial Confrontations: Tools for Resolving Broken Promises, Violated Expectations and Bad Behavior. He has devoured it and is thrilled to finally start understanding the importance of expressing not necessarily his "anger", but certainly his feelings. Anger only really seems to develop when we fear we're not being heard, and/or we're afraid of what the confrontation may yield. The book has given him tools to help express his feelings without him needing to be angry and without creating anger.
Our hardest conversations since DDay have been some of our most fruitful, but it really has been difficult trying to break past what we learned about anger as kids. That old adage about teaching old dogs new tricks...BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
I am so sorry to hear of your mother's passing. I also, felt your post was incredibly wise. One of the best I have read here on HH.
I am getting ready to do a weekend with this group I am involved with at my church, where we pray through generational "stuff". I think it is so interesting how issues can run through generations. It also makes me feel fiesty, that I really do want to break those generational patterns for my children.
Thank you Amber for your post and insight. I found it very enlightning. My WH is a conflict avoider and intimacy avoider, no wonder things turned out the way they have. I never thought of the A relationship as being void of conlict, or void of intimacy. Apparently if it was filled with conflict and intimacy it certainly would not have lasted 5 years. Although I did know of times when he and OW had a fight ro where she would become angry at him...but I doubt if he got angry back, becuase he would come home and be exceptionally cruel to me. Although at the time I could not figure out why. It would come out of nowhere and was very confusing...I would just stand there and take it and try to figure out what was going on. Now it makes a lot more sense to me.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Well, I wasn't really sure what kind of response I would get to a question like this. I appreciate everyone who participated, your heartfelt responses all seem to confirm Dave Carder's assertion that anger is indeed an important and necessary part of affair recovery.
"your heartfelt responses all seem to confirm Dave Carder's assertion that anger is indeed an important and necessary part of affair recovery"
--
My own anger was huge - HUGE - crossing into rage, but since we separated the day after dday and since much of my angry period was spent knowing that OW was still actively in the picture, my H has no/little idea what my worst anger looked like.
The extremely angry phase lasted about 8-9 months and just wore me out. When trying to learn about anger and researching it to find ways to deal with it, one simple phrase still stands out.
"Anger is a natural response to having your boundries violated."
This dovetails nicely into Carder's assertion if it natually follows that communication and decisions about where those boundries should be and how important they are be used to reestablish new, better, stronger and clearly understood expectations of our self and our spouse.
Took me a while to get posting again but here I go:
I believe that anger is a necessary step for both the BS and the WS. I know that when I hit my anger stage, and I will admit I hit it several times due to several d-days, that I let him know I was angry. I didn't lash out verbally or become obnoxious, but it was in the 'air'. Did my H become angry? I think he did, but he rarely showed it to me. On a few occassions I saw his anger but it was normally in response to mine.
I feel that it is necessary for both spouses, whether they stay together and reconcile or separate, to work through the anger. I worked through mine with my IC at the time, and it helped.
Now, 4 years past d-day 1 and almost 2 years past d-day 5....my anger is small. I still have some, but it is mostly inward, things I should have done, could have done and I am working on that. I don't believe my H has any anger - then again, my H is like many men and if he could just sweep all the stuff under the rug and ignore it, he'd be a happy camper!
I have read Torn Asunder, and I am interested in what the workbook goes through David, so please continue to share with us.
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
Hi David and all, I woke up this morning and had a sensation and thought about anger - I realised that for me there may be an underlying energy I hold as a WS anger - But my feeling of it is more like an energy that pushes me away from the reality of the A and WS. So, yes, perhaps that has been there for me. But I really don't experience this negative energy very often in the way that I define anger ie I am not overcome and do things out of control. But I can feel the energy and I have a feeling that this drives me in other ways. My view is that the energy that makes me want to turn away or reject the reality is actually potentially helpful. After all, if it is there, it is part of me and I cannot reject or repress this. I have a feeling that this energetic feeling has been turned into a quest for change in me and also a spur to work through the pain and suffering to a different place where I can be more happy. So.. on balance I would look at my anger as an energetic force for change. I guess the main thing is to be aware of the rising of the energy and not to let it become a volcanic explosive force - And for me it doesn't do things that way. But I can see something more clearly now in this and I thank you David for prompting this thread and a better understanding in me
>"I guess the main thing is to be aware of the rising of the energy and not to let it become a volcanic explosive force - And for me it doesn't do things that way. "
Jerry, do you view anger as something to be repressed? The words you use; "rising" and "volcanic" indicate that possibly you do, but I wanted to be clear.
No David - not repressed - or I hope not - I have been seeking out my anger for some time and am aware I have some kind of energy in there but it doesn't boil up and overtake me as I can see it does in some other people. But I do remain suspicious that I am perhaps suppressing and keep looking for more.
