WH just told me tonight that he would like to start staying open later at night like we used to be prior to d-day 1. After d-day 1, we shortened our hours by one each night of the week after we came back from vacation. Wh's late hours was part of the problem, and what allowed him time for the A. Now he want's to go there again? I just can't! I told him I did not think it was a good idea, but the kids were around and I could not express why I felt this way....but I plan on letting him know exactly why I feel the way I do. Apparently he is bored at night all by himself and has no plans on trying to earn his way back home or he wouldn't even think of doing this. Part of me is hurt because we just had a heart to heart talk the other night, but part of me knows I should have never held out any hope.
I did not have a chance to write about the talk we had...while it was not "the" talk, it was definatley long over due, by about 10 years. Without going into too much detail, the talk was more or less about how WH felt the loss of our baby changed how he feels about our reltionship. Basically, he abandoned me because he was afraid of appearing weak, and could not look past his own pain to be there for me, and he does not know why. What man abandons his wife when she needs him the most for fear of appearing weak? It sounds very, very selfish to me. He also felt that I blamed him for the loss of the baby, which I never did, and he would have known had he not taken the discussion off the table for the last 10 years. He also said he felt I resented him because he wasnt there for me. I told him what he did really hurt me but that I resented our business (and he knew that cause we did talk about that once in MC 2 years ago) because he always used it as an excuse as to why he couldnt be there for us. At least now I have some answers as to "why". WH says he is working on his issues in IC (finally). WH said he feels like he is not worthy of me and the kids, and feels he is getting what he deserves by living with the homesless drunk man. WH said he is sorry for all of the pain he has caused me. WH appears to actually be taking that deep dark look inside of himself and says he is disgusted with what he sees. He feels I will never be able to look at him without pain. Instead of clawing his way out of the dark hole he finds himself in, and making ammends, I feel he has chosen to sink down further into it and wallow in self-pitty. At least he is looking...that is more than I expected. Not that it changes anything between us now...but I am glad I have some answers to my questions and I finally know he feels about what happened.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
I am sorry for you Cal that his actions are not helpful and his words seem to me to show how inventive the mind is in creating believable scenarios for us to feel comfortable in. I felt reading your post that the conversation was probably seemingly meaningful and yet seemed to lack the emotional and practical outcomes of someone trying to make things work. I also sense the movement continuing towards justifying his actions both to you and him - and even allowing him to support his turning away from you - a bit like a little boy might explain things to someone who does not dig for reality (eg sometimes I can see how therapy or counselling may support problems even, like a too-accepting mother can do for a child). Mind you, my own mind could be creating all this picture to suit me! At the end of the day, I can only say how things are with me and I feel I have to concentrate on what I can do to make myself happy in regard to the relationship with WS and this means working with how she is and we are now, with as little regard as I can find for the versions/ interpretations of the past I(or future) we can create. I keep asking myself "how do I feel with this person right now?".
Isn't it amazing how they give us exactly enough to keep us invested in the relationship?
He just pulled on your heartstrings.....deliberate or not? Well that is your call.
Sure he is making some progress on one hand, but falling back on the other.
He has decided to stay open late. Cal if you are really considering divorce you may not be working there after the D anyway. I can understand how it triggered you, but you are seperated so if he wants to spend his time working late hours there isn't much you can say about. You asked him to leave. He is living his own life now. You can't have it both ways.
Jerry: I do believe we create our own world in our minds, many times based on miss information. This is how he has always justified his bad behavior, and probably why I put up with it for so long. We never see ourselves as others see us do we? The mirror is always slightly askew.
Kim: I don't want it both ways...I guess I still keep expecting him to do the right thing and choose us in all of this, when everything indicates that he is not. His desire to stay open later like we used to did trigger a lot of emotions in me, and yes, he pulled heavily on the heartstrings regarding the baby. I do feel his desire to actually open up on this issue is genuine and I do feel I got some answers to questions and issues that should have been addressed long ago but WH wanted to avoid answering and dealing with. Every time I tried to talk about it he said he didn't want to talk. He had also mentionioned (but did not want to discuss) that the baby was the root of many of his issues (2 years ago in MC). However, I believe the baby was more of a justification for his bad behavior, something he can look back and say well I felt this or that therefore I am justified in getting high or having an A. But the real question becomes if this is how he felt why did he just not come to me and talk to me? But we know the answer to that don't we?! Avoidance. If you talk to someone and find out what is really going on and try to work it out then you cannot justify your behavior then can you? I do believe that if it were not for IC he still wouldn't be able to go there though. That is progress for him, but not necessarily for the marriage I suppose.
As far as the business goes, I still have a vested interest. I am afraid that as long as my children are at home I will. It is how we make a living whether we are together or not, and whether I work there or not. I am surprised that he even bothered to mention his intentions to me about prolonging our hours since he is the decider and does not take my feelings/thoughts/concerns into considereration the majority of the time regarding the business. Afterall it is "his" business, and "he" has been there for 16 years. So one has to wonder what his motives were there, more so than regarding the baby.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
>WH appears to actually be taking that deep dark look inside of himself and says he is disgusted with what he sees. He feels I will never be able to look at him without pain. Instead of clawing his way out of the dark hole he finds himself in, and making ammends, I feel he has chosen to sink down further into it and wallow in self-pitty.
People are such intricate creatures. There are so many levels that we can "go to" within our own psyche. We all try to find that place where we feel most comfortable. We don't especially like being challenged or stretched beyond our comfort level. If we don't challenge ourselves, it generally doesn't matter how much others push us.
Personally, I'm inclined to think that your H is trying to get you "on his side" with all the psychobabble he's throwing at you, even while still not really considering you at all (as evidenced by the store hours) still blame-shifting, not really accepting responsibility for anything.
I do so wish I could wave my wand and fix everything for you. I know you are hurting, and I am so sorry for your pain.
When I read your post, several thoughts came to me. As I wrote in the other thread, my H and I have been quite busy going to C and applying the lessons to our lives. Here are my ideas based on what I have learned.
1. We can not control anyone else, only ourselves. That means we can not make anyone else behave or think or feel the way we do or the way we think that other person should. We can't.
2. We are NOT each other or think or feel or behave like each other simply because we got married. We don't. It is very fallacious for us to assume that someone thinks a certain thought or behaves in a certain way because of the reasons we think. None of us are mindreaders. The ONLY way to know what someone else is thinking or feeling is to ask and then to listen and accept that what the other person says is what s/he means.
3. You wrote "What man abandons his wife when she needs him the most for fear of appearing weak?" The answer may simply be a man who believes that he must appear strong for his wife, one who learned that real men don't show their emotions because if they do, their wives will no longer respect them because they will view the men as weak and unworthy. Doesn't that fall into what you know of his father's behavior? I have learned that I can NOT apply my thoughts and opinions to my H's thoughts. I am NOT him. When I fail to accept his answers and explanations, I am guilty of expecting him to behave the way I would, and isn't that a version of trying to control the other person?
4. Your H is guilty of assuming how and what you thought, too, as evidenced by his saying that "He also felt that I blamed him for the loss of the baby" and "he felt I resented him because he wasnt there for me." These statements sound just like the kind that my H and I were guilty of making. We were NOT communicating with each other; we were just ASSUMING. (And we ALL know what THAT means! LOL)
5. It sounds like your H is being more honest with you than he may ever have been before. He told you "he feels like he is not worthy of me and the kids, and feels he is getting what he deserves by living with the homesless drunk man." Wow! What does that say about how unworthy and unloveable he feels. What lessons did he learn from his parents? Did he feel loveable and worthy when he was a child? Did his father praise him or criticize him? Did his father teach him that it is OK to have emotions, ALL emotions? Or did your FIL teach your H, just as my FIL taught my H, that what responsible H's do is work hard to support their families financially (and in my H's case, fix broken things around the house) and don't even permit themselves to feel emotions, much less SHARE their feelings with a wife?
I am NOT saying that your H hasn't been an avoider, as he so obviously has, but perhaps he has been an avoider because, like my H and so many other men, he is afraid of emotions because he feels overwhelmed by them, never having seen his own father acknowledge them or deal with them, and thus when exposed to them, runs away out of fear and discomfort. One of the wonderful benefits of our C is that my H has finally accepted that feeling emotions is normal and healthy, and he is finally permitting himself to experience emotions other than feeling happy and feeling angry. I am hoping that your H will tear down the walls that he has had in place for so long and permit himself to feel emotions.
It sounds like your H was sharing with you in a way he never has previously. Despite what seems like an explanation for giving himself permission to wallow in self-pity, he may have been trying to reach out to you to show you that he WANTS you to understand him better, just as he seems to be trying to understand himself better. I would guess that you were encouraging to him and praised him for making such a huge effort. It seems to me that your opinion of him really is important to him.
My IC would tell him that it is NOT his place to make assumptions about how YOU feel or think; ergo, he shouldn't tell himself that you "will never be able to look at him without pain." It is YOUR right to decide what you want to do.
I am inclined to think that he was being honest about why he plans to keep the pizza parlor open later. He is lonely and bored without you, and working more might be a way of his feeling better about himself because he is able to support you and the kids. I am only speculating. He would have to answer that question himself, and he may not be able to yet until he and his IC talk about it.
Anyway, those were just a few thoughts I had. I'll fly away now before your eyes are totally glazed over.
Loads of encouraging fairy hugs,
fairyfriend
edited to remove addlepatted wording.
This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Jan 10, 2008 10:26 AM This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Jan 10, 2008 10:22 AM
I agree completely with everything FF said. An additional thought I had is that many times men find self-worth in what they can provide for their families financially. I know my H is that way. He thought that he was showing love enough simply by providing, by getting up and going to work daily and working hard. He didn't think I had any emotional "needs" that needed to be met because he showed love through work, by being the provider. The whole caveman mentality. Our lack of communication caused me to think he was ignoring me, when in fact he didn't know what I needed from him so he gave what he knew how to give.
It sounds like your H thinks so little of himself that he's looking for ways to build himself back up. Working more hours provides that for him. He sees success as a man through his business. If he's working more hours, then he's being a more successful man. This love language of his might not make any sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to him. Not saying he's right, just that he's doing what he knows how to do with the limited skills his own father gave him on what being a "man" means.
Also living with an emotional avoider, I know it is difficult when they open up just a little. You see the flood gates of their emotions crack open and they let a little out, something they haven't done in the past, and you desperately want and expect that the gates will now break wide open and everything will come out. But it doesn't and you are left flat. Try to see that maybe he is trying to reach out to you and maybe he needs to do it in very little steps.
Since we've both been going through this for years now, I know you just want to get on with your life. You either want him to immediately step up or just want him to get the F out of your life. But you, as I do, still really want to save your marriage. Look at the positives, he is in IC (did he go on his own or at your prompting? either way it is good that he is going), he opened up to you about somehting that is very painful for him to discuss, something that he has had locked up inside for a long time. Even the fact that he told you he wanted to keep hte pizza parlor open later, becuase he usually doesn't even bother to talk to you about the business. These are big steps for him.
I think FF said something about you thanking him for opneing up. If you haven't maybe you should. Let him know that you appreciate that he confided some of his fears in you. Perhaps it will lead to another meaningful discussion.
Last night H came to me to talk and we did have a good discussion. And he would like to have more, however he has asked the we not have marathon discussions everytime we talk and has suggested shorter but more frequent talks. If you and H have another talk try asking him if he would be agreeabel to more talks if they are not hours long. Could H never want to talk because he knows it turns into hours and doesn't stop until one of you are to angry to speak anymore? Just a thought.
We don’t know your H. A lot of assumptions are being made here that may have the effect of confusing you. Please, remember your boundaries, that is what is most important here. There is no reason that you can not have compassion for your H, and the behaviors he learned through out his life, but that does not make them acceptable. The man that beats his wife, is no different than your H, there are reasons he does what he does, but it is still abuse.
The bad behaviors and habits of my husband that I lived with pre-affair, were something I could no longer tolerate after D-day. I was wrong accepting them pre-d-day, and the affair and the realizations that the boundaries were mine and mine alone taught me that.
We and are not trained counselors, you and your therapist are much more versed in the why’s of your H's behaviors then we are.
While I appreciate what FF, Sun, and Lisa have said, I cannot agree with all of it. There is a lot of the conversation that I left out. I truly understand where they are coming from and what they are trying to say. I, myself came from the same perspective between d-day 2 and the more current discovery of WH's lies and continuing use of drugs. Up until then I followed the same thought pattern. That WH was trying, that underneath he is a better man, and perhaps he is misunderstood, hurting, was remorseful and that he deserved yet another chance. The truth is WH makes decisions based on how he feels with no regard to anyone else or their feelings....or the consequences to himself or others around him. He does not respect boundaries, nor does he have any himself. You cannot have a relationship with someone who does not have any boundaries nor respects others...who only communicates with the others when it suits them, or when they can use it as a manipulation tactic. Where was he when I wanted to talk last week? That's right, he didn't show up or even bother to call. Had he not been here visiting the kids Monday night we would have not had the conversation we did.
I have tried so many different techniques to learn how to communicate with him better, like giving him time and not pushing until he is ready to talk, allowing him to express himself in short sessions without interrupting, using "I" statements, by not assuming, and by controlling my own emotions when he said hurtful things as to not scare him and to keep the lines of communication open and "safe" for him. I have thanked him for talking to me. I have showed compassion for him and I have listened to everything he had to say after d-day 2. I felt he was really trying for awhile and I thought we were doing well...but then he started with the drugs again...didnt bother to talk to me anymore and went right back to the way things were pre-day 2. Treating him like only his feelings and what he had to say were important and not mine didn't work. As soon as he was back in the house and things were back to "normal" he went back to the way he was before...avoiding, lying, and doing drugs. Quite honestly I am tired of walking on eggshells...trying to be understanding and respectful of his feelings, yet, he does not do the same for me. It is a two way street....where is the equality? The reciprocity? And as my IC has told me, HE IS CAPABLE of talking and having a meaningful conversations when it suits HIM (he proved this right after d-day 2, for the first 3 months). The baby was something he finally needed/wanted to talk about, and I was happy to talk to him. But what about when I needed to talk about the baby prior to all of this, when I was hurting and needed him...did he talk to me? No. He refused to talk to me. I needed to get it out but he wouldnt let me. When do I become important? When will my need to talk and my feelings matter? This entire marriage has been about him...what he wants. He has controlled every aspect of it up until now...until I found my own voice. I am finally sticking up for myself and upholding my boundaries and he finally seems to be coming somewhat out of his fog and looking inside of himself. I think he needs to feel the guilt and the pain he has caused me, as part of both our healing. My IC has said it is important that WH feel my pain. Sugarcoating it for him is not going to do the trick, it will only enable him to not go where he needs to go with this. Coddeling him and having compassion are two different things. I certainly have compassion for what he is going through but I am no longer going to coddle him or enable him. I know the step he took were big for him, but he has yet to prove his sincerity. Last time I was just so happy he was doing what seemed to be the right things that I did not question his sincerity...and I wanted to trust he was telling me the truth...but he wasn't. So it is up to him to prove himself....he needs to prove himself, not just for me but for himself. This is what needs to happen.
During the conversation about the baby, which lasted only about 30-40 minutes, he also minimized his drugs use, saying he doesnt smoke every day now, and says he is doing alot better. I told him that ANY use, no matter how little is still not acceptable. He said he knew that I would say that wasn't good enough. Like I said, I did not go into much detail about our conversation and once I heard his mimimalization of his drug use I just knew he still didnt get it and the sincerity I felt he had at the begining of the conversation just went out the window. Then he comes to me a few days later and says he is going to increase the hours at our business. How can he do that to the employees as well as to us? How can he expect them to work those extra hours without extra pay (he told me his not going to pay them more cause I asked) and by taking time away from their families as well? Im sorry, but again this sounds very selfish to me. Maybe his plan didn't work and I saw through the manipulation. Although I do believe he was being honest about his feelings and the baby, it seems he still had alterior motives. "I" feel (I am not assuming how he feels) he talked about increasing the hours because I did not ask him to come back home after our conversation and because he is feeling sorry for himself. He knew that I would not like the idea as it was my idea to shorten the hours 3 years ago because he is a workaholic (and how he was able to have time for the A), and that it has been barely a year since we started closing on Mondays. I can guarantee that if he starts with the extended hours again, he will eventually start opening again on Mondays. This is not good for anyone except possibly WH. I dont want that to happen because then he will once again have no time for his family, especially the kids if we D or not. And it's not like it will increase business a whole lot....maybe 2-3 more customers we might get a night, if that. Is is worth it? NO! I feel he may have also said these things to me to get a reaction out of me, knowing that I would be upset. He has done this to me before.
Although I asked WH to leave, he made the choice to grab the stash, stuff it down his pants and walk out the door. He chose the drugs over his family by not keeping his word. I think IC is finally starting to work for him and I have to let it run it's course. It may or may not lead him to get into recovery. But I cannot sit here and hope that it will. More and more I realise that. It is sinking in....I have to let go. I go back and forth...one day resolved and another day hopeful. It feels like I have traded one limbo for another, at least for now. I am still moving forward, slowly, it's just not as fast as I would like. I know it is a slow process, and I am trying to be patient with myself, and I am trying to take care of me.
Thank you everyone for your kind, and very thoughtful replies. I appreciate them all
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jan 10, 2008 7:04 PM This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jan 10, 2008 7:02 PM
I'm so proud of you, Cal. I wanted to clear something up, in case you misunderstood me. Just because your H may or may not be figuring out his "why" does NOT mean that I was advising you to break your boundaries and give him another chance. Even if you said he was going to rehab and vowing never to touch pot again I'd still say you'd be wise to give him one year AFTER rehab to prove he's not doing pot ever again, and maybe think about reconciling then....
He might be starting the long process of getting inside his own pain and working through it, or he might not. Either way, you've certainly put your life (and your family's life) on hold long enough, and you are more than entitled to pick up the pieces and hold firm to your boundaries while your pursue D.
I hope your H was being sincere, and that by realizing the pain he's buried he can begin the long process of healing. While it's probably too late to save his M, I hope that as a human being he can better himself and become the man God wants him to be. If you've moved on completely and have no more doors open for him in your heart, not one soul on this board would blame you girl.
I hope he is sincere too and is on the path to healing as well, no matter what the status of our M is. I only want good things for him. Maybe the seperation is what he needed too...to be able to look inside of himself. Sometimes a person has to lose everything in order to do that, and even then some people still cannot go there.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
I apologize if I offended you or hurt your feelings. God knows your H has done way too much of both.
I do think it was way overdue for your H to express his feelings about the baby. He was very illogical and thoughtless to attach any discussion about his drug use to the talk about your baby. For that, he owes you a HUGE apology.
I totally agree with Sun that I am NOT encouraging you to take him back. IF, and this is a HUGE IF, you were to take him back again, I feel 100% confident that you would only do so after he had been clean and sober for a LONG time, had gone to IC and MC and willingly participated and implemented changes in his attitudes and actions.
I didn't mean to give you the impression that I think his plans to keep the pizza parlor open late is a good idea. I don't. I was just expressing an idea of why he might be planning to.
Of course you are full of resentment, anger, and pain still because he has yet to really do anything you have asked him to do to demonstrate that you and your marriage are important to him. In the past, he was able to get by with talk, but you have found your feet and are standing up to him. I am VERY proud of you, as you should be of yourself.
Our C has called my H on the carpet many times for sugarcoating. The next step she is going to do is actually do tests on him to determine just how much he sugarcoats EVERYTHING. Living with a sugarcoater, I understand. Believe me, I know that a WS doesn't relish being in the spotlight, so I am not surprised that your H is afraid of letting go of his fallacious thoughts. If he did, he might just have to face some very uncomfortable truths about himself, his hurtful and inexcusable behavior, and the damage his actions have done to himself, you, your marriage, and your children.
Of course, we all know that the only way he has a ghost of a chance to save your marriage is if he faces thoses truths and makes the changes in himself that will help him become the man you would like him to be.
In the meantime, no matter what he says, you have the choice to react how you choose. No matter what changes he makes or doesn't make, you have the choice to leave the marriage because he has done too much damage for you to stay. I would NEVER encourage you to stay unless that is what YOU want to do. (I would, however, encourage you to leave if I could see from a more objective viewpoint that you were being abused.)
Anyway, I apologize again if anything I wrote hurt you. That was never my intention.
There is no need to apologise. No one offended me. I just started thinking for a minute that maybe I didn't do enough after I read some of the responses or maybe I didn't talk to him in a safe way. Then I remember what my IC said about WH being capable when he wants to be...he just doesnt feel the need to be. I still want to save my marraige...but I know that it takes two..I cannot do it alone. And right now I feel very alone. I know that wanting to save my marriage is not the same as being able to save it....and that I have to let that go.
I think the talk with WH confused me a bit...pulled on my heart strings. It made me miss him and brought up all sorts of feelings, some good, some bad. But mostly it brought up a lot of pain. Pain that I have felt over and over again in my marriage...the pain of being alone in it. The painful truth of how WH is not there for me when I need him when something traumatic happens...he is not there to support me...he is too busy avoiding his own feelings to be there for me, and many times to be there for the children. Besides the drugs, the other way he avoids is by working. So I think when he brought up working more hours, I knew it was to avoid more than it was about being a provider. Im sure he is bored and lonely too, but working more hours is not the answer. He did the samething after he had the car accident...he isolated himself at work and started working more hours...then he became even lonelier because we are not that busy that late and he then used that time to cheat on me. So I see working more hours as providing the "opportunity" to have another A. I cannot go there! And he should know better than to go back there without me even having to point it out to him....but I will anyways.
We are separated and he is free to live how he chooses but we are also still married, and I do feel I have some say in things still, especially when it comes to our business and our children.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Last night as I was leaving work, I asked WH what he had decided to do about staying open longer hours, was he going to go ahead and do it, or had he changed his mind? He said he changed his mind after he saw how I reacted the other night. I said that I was glad that he took my feelings into consideration, and that he had come to me and let me know what he was thinking. I told him that in the past, many times, he just did things without talking to me and then I would find out later and be mad. He said "I know. I'm glad I talked to you too. I was even thinking about opening on Mondays again. But I really need and enjoy the time off." I knew he was thinking about opening on Monday's again, and I am glad he decided against adding all of these hours back on to the schedule. We talked briefly how he uses work to avoid. I did not feel like bringing up how all that extra time at work gave him the opportunity to have the A...I think he knows that, and the homeless drunk was hanging around. So it was not time to have any sort of real intimate talk with him hangig around and listening to my every word...not that he would remember anything I said, but my feelings are private...between me and WH, not the homeless drunk!
Speaking of the homeless drunk, I think perhaps he is the cause of my WH's sudden desire to work more hours again. WH told me that the homeless drunk may be leaving the state for a few months. Seems the guy promised his XGF that he would go out of state with her when she leaves (she is visiting her son) and help her pack up her stuff and move back here. This woman is handicapped and is waiting to move into assisted living, when they have a spot open, which they have told her will be within the next few months. I am thinking my WH will then be totally alone and he panicked.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
I am so glad that the two of you have talked about work hours and it appears that he is 'seeing' your feelings and understanding them. That is a great step forward for your H.
He may be becoming panicked about being alone, but maybe that is what he truly needs, time alone to think. Maybe he is afraid of what he has to do, facing himself, not hiding in drugs, work or sleep.
I have to say, you are such a strong woman right now. I'm sure you are second guessing what you say and do and think twice about what to say. But, I want to say, I wish I was as strong as you. I still keep so much inside that I'd like to say to my H. I bite my tongue, I rethink that maybe I shouldn't say that, and he doesn't truly know my mind and what I'm thinking. Your H knows what you are thinking - and that is how it should be.
Rock on!!!
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
Our lack of communication caused me to think he was ignoring me, when in fact he didn't know what I needed from him so he gave what he knew how to give.