I don't think I've seen a discussion like this on the boards. It came up in speaking with H last night and I am so appalled.

We've all read and seen on the news all to often how an affair has led to one of the parties injurying another in the triangle of the affair (sometimes its a square depending on if OP is married or not). So it is a justifiable concern.

Last night I was upset over a TV show. I lashed out at H asking if he ever considered that the OW might consider violence against me. To my astonishment he said yes. In the beginning of their A he did think about the movie Fatal Attraction and that things like that do happen. He took a wait and see attitude and then decided that she's not that kind of person. I was dumbfounded that he had actually considered that harm could come to me and that was not enough to pull him out of his fog!

I think I would have been hurt less if he had said, no I never thought of it. But the fact that he did think of it and put it to the side because OWs "not that kind of person" is really hurtful.

The conversation then took a different turn. I asked if he ever thought that OW's H may seek revenge against H by hurting me or even the kids. That he said he never though of. H was very, very angry at me for telling OW's H about the affair. He always said that I never took into consideration that OW's H could come after him and harm or kill him. Even when he was making those statements he never thought about OW's H seeking revenge and harming me or the kids. That just says what a self centered person my H is! He of course also worried that OW's H would hurt her in someway.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I just need to vent about it. Any thoughts or experiences?

Lisa

There has been some shared experience here on HH of violence and violent thoughts - In my case I have had such thoughts along with other fantasies about revenge etc.  The simple fact is that this all runs deep and the offence is very primitive and the reaction may also be primitive.   Certainly as a man I felt the animal drive, fury and anger rise up in me from time to time.  But, I am a human animal and have dealt with that energy more wisely. 

I believe my wife wondered if I would "do something stupid" and I have a lingering feeling that my wifes OMs wife has some quite negative feelings towards wife (nor surprisingly). 

For me I felt the offence of adultery like a murder - And in some ways worse - The perpetrator and the victim have to live together with this - That can be a kind of living torture sometimes.

may you be safe and well

Here's the twist on it in our situation. Sorry for the length, but it sort of requires a bit of background info:

H knew OW from brief dating they did in college (ironically, she was in another, fairly serious relationship and was cheating on her BF with the man who would later be my H). 15 years later, with both of them married, they began their A. Email correspondence has gross messages back and forth between them about this 15 year gap in time...that it was worth waiting for...that both of them would easily wait for each other again for years, if necessary. Yuk. OW also, being the pathetic creature she is, had H "help" her through her 40th birthday...something she had feared for years, because she believes herself to be nothing if she is not physically attractive (which she isn't - she's just easily sexually available). More discussion followed after this birthday event about how she'd need him to be there for her 50th and he enthusiastically agreed that nothing would deter him from being there for her. More yuk.

At the point I discovered what was going on and found these emails, I became absolutely convinced that in addition to emotionally killing me (which H had done by having the A) that either individually or as a couple the two of them would physically harm and kill me to have me out of the way. It just logically seemed to follow that with all the scheming and conniving they had to do to make the A work, they would certainly do whatever it took to continue on with their long range plans.

After some heated argument H and I had post DDay, H got up to get a glass of water and asked if he could bring me one. I was absolutely convinced he was going to poison me. I may have even taken the water, dumped it out and then refilled the glass myself to make sure that it wasn't tainted. H questioned what was going on, and I told him that I was afraid he was trying to poison me. He was completely hurt and said he would never ever hurt me. Oh really? At the point I'd already lost 15 pounds and was an emotional wreck it was hard to take that comment seriously. He'd already clearly showed that he was quite willing and able to hurt me.

I still have lingering though faded concerns about this and have thought about putting something in my will that if I die sometime sooner than one would normally expect, that I want an autopsy done. Haven't done that, but its still sitting in the back of my head.

H and I have discussed both our concerns about revenge that either OW or OW's H might take if I try and give her H more info about the A. (OW lied to her H and said it had only gone on for 6 months, when it was in fact, 3 years.) There's a lot of information I wish I'd been able to give or share with him, but the fear of what either of them might do - to my H, or me, or our kids - keeps me from pursuing that.

I agree, Lisa; there is ample evidence that affairs can bring out desperate, violent acts from any of the parties.

Its bizarre to me to think that protecting the OP and the A had greater import than our physical well-being. Any A partner that didn't use condoms was already gambling with our life! It just isn't a big jump from STDs, cancer and AIDS concerns to revenge violence. But the notion of any kind of consequences is a foreign concept to people in A's. They hold what they're doing as somehow justifiable, and harmless. And like in any addiction, the addict, when pushed into a corner, oftentimes will do what it takes to protect his/her "stash". Tough topic. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Jerry, thnaks for your response.

I know there has been discussions regarding violence/violent thought from BS towards WS or OP. I'm really interested in concerns of the BS about the OP harming them.

The movie Fatal Attraction was about a man who has a ONS and has no intention of ever seeing OW again. OW goes about stalking him/his family. OW feels used and wants revenge. Another scenario is that an OP might want BS's "life". They want to be married to WS have teh family/house etc. So tehy go about getting it by doin harm to BS. I know this is stuff that movies are made of (although things like this have happened in the real world) but it upsets me that H had actually thought of it and that did not bring him out of his fog.

In your situation, regarding OM's wife having negative feelings toward's your W hve you ever been afraid that she might harm W. I know that this too has been a concern of mine.

Lisa

Lisa:

My wife considered the damage that the affair would do to our marriage. She told the OM that she didn't want to do that to our marriage, that she loved me. Then she flirted with him, made dates with him, and had sex with him on multiple occasions.

Obviously in those moments my wife considered the gain of the affair a worthwhile trade for the losses in our marriage. Or did she? I think her ideas of "damaging our marriage" where gross underestimates of the true damage that it saw. I think losses to me, to her, to our families and friends (including those who know nothing about this) are something she never even came close to understanding. She had no concept of the depth of trauma that I would experience, nor the trauma that she would also experience.

Basically, when it came right down to it, she wanted to 'feel good' right then and there and discounted any future consequences that would come from it. The irony is that my wife is often a fairly paranoid person who over estimates the potential problems in a given situation.

I think that sums it up... affairs are selfish acts, and a person must disengage from any unselfishness they might normally have in order to engage in one. In fact, affair parties are so selfish, they don't really care about the consequences for either of their partners. Why should they if they aren't considering the consequences for themselves?

TomJ

I have also been very hurt that H did not consider what could happen to me as a result of a crazy OW...and there were several.

Some of the events are actually funny but in a tragic kind of way. One of his drinking partners/admiration-givers was his assistant who was very helpful to both of us in managing our lives. (Little did I know that she was pretending to be my H's wife.) Anyway, she found me a trainer who was great. One day the trainer shows up and works me especially hard to the point where I just couldn't go on. I asked her what she was doing and she said that she had gotten an anonymous phone message saying that my H wanted her to work me harder or he would fire her. Such nonsense - my H, as sick as he is, would never do that or frankly, even care what happens in my sessions. It was definitely the sick assistant, as she is the only one who knew the name and number of my trainer. She was trying to hurt me by exercising me to death - if it wasn't so scarey, it would be funny.

Then, I find out that this same crazy woman has applied for a secretarial job at my company (she was fired when my H left his company). Of course, the HR people asked me about her as she had her job with my H on her resume. Needless to say, she will not be working here.

I am sickened on several counts - H knew this person was unstable and still continued his selfish, sick relationship with her. And, he refused to confront her and defend me. I think he was afraid of her and maybe justifiably, but still, it hurts that he could be so cruel to me and so considerate of the OW. And, I am furious that he could risk my well-being for the sake of getting drunk and getting compliments from a loser psycho.

And, Blue, I totally relate to the soul numbing shock of reading e-mails between H and OW. The worst one I found described their relationship as a "bright, explosive, light" and that she was the woman he should have married. H said that he would say anything to keep her around and that he was just caught up in the fantasy. So, so painful. Feels like I will be haunted forever by those words.

Guess I should stop being surprised at how low the WS can sink,how little our feelings meant and how blatant their disregard for our well-being was.

You are definately not alone in your feelings. When I think about it even now I just get angry all over again. It is all part of the fog though and of course "ow isnt like that". That is what they tell themselves. Of course she is "like that" she is causing you emotional pain already, it is a short jump to being physical. They have to see ow in a positive light or else they could not be with them. Me and my WH had this exact same conversation at one point and he said the same thing to me....even though OW was obviously vendictive. At one point OW even followed me around. Now that's scary. When I told WH this he did not believe me and actually defended OW. In fact every time I told him something negative that OW did or that I found out about her he defended her. I think that is what hurt more than anything else, was that he took her side over mine, disregarded my legitimate concerns, and defended OW.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

My response to this is a little different...... At this moment,I think if I ever see the OW, I will DESTROY her beyond belief. Hopefully this anger will pass....but right now, thats my honest feeling. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Amy

Amy, you are not alone. I spend way too much of my time fantasizing about how I will wreak vengence on the OW...it is never physical, though. It is about publicly revealing her as the slut she is.
I have rehearsed over and over what I would say if we ran into her and it gets crueler each time.
Sadly (or luckily), I am not likely to have that opportunity and have been told by many people that behaving like that just shows her how much power she has over me. Better to let her think that I don't waste a minute of my time thinking about a loser like her.

You've asked for honesty and now you've gotten it. Sometimes a WS's replies can be very difficult. Just be careful that your reaction doesn't make telling the truth about anything not worth the effort.

Focus on the positive - he told you the truth even though he knew it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

I have noticed that when I read about a murder, I start looking for the love triangle and it is AMAZING how often I find it. The scary part is, I read it and I don't think "wow, what a wacko" I read it and I understand... that creeps me out.

but as for H and OW, there's a whole lot of denial going on here.

My H thought someone who would sleep with him would never sleep with someone who had an STD so he didn't wear a condom. Then he comes home to sex with me. (Blech! ick! scary!)

and what about that movie "Unfaithful" with Richard Gere where the OM dies and across the country theater audiences cheered... but again "that could never happen"

I think it all stems from some feeling that no one will ever find out and therefore no one will ever know and therefore no one will ever get hurt - they don't stop to think that from now on, there might be someone out there who wishes them harm.

-Susan

I appreciate everyone's feedback. As usual it is conforting to know that others feel as you do. I am not crazy, other BS' do think about the violence and threatening behavior that could have been (and in some cases was) perpertrated against them. I'm sorry if my questions brought back very hurtful memeories for anyone.

Kim, I realize the truth is hard and not always what I want to hear. I do appreciate that he told me the truth, but he is still quite defensive about his thought process on this topic, he actually said, "I was right, she has not tried to physically harm you" (read into it - "see she is not a bad person").

Susan, Stillkickin, you make a good point:
"they don't stop to think that from now on, there might be someone out there who wishes them harm"

As time goes by the chance that OP or their spouse will seek revenge decreases, but the possibility will always be there, and that is scary.

Lisa

he actually said, "I was right, she has not tried to physically harm you" (read into it - "see she is not a bad person").

I'm not there, so just take this with a grain of salt. But, the WS is often trying to rebuild your trust and confidence and what he might be saying is "please trust my judgement on at least this one thing".

So when "kid" said becareful how you respond so you keep the trust building door open, you might think about it from that perspective.

And, what I've tried to do is think that maybe she isn't a "bad" person. Maybe she is just as weak, lost, troubled as my H that she went down this terrible path. Maybe she had a horrible childhood or was traumatized in some way that she ended up making this horrible choice. Something must have happened because a normal, healthy, stable person wouldn't do this. I believe that my H is more "good" than "bad", actually I think that he is just H and made some "bad" choices. Could not the OW fall into the same category?

It still doesn't make any of this right or good, don't get me wrong. And the path to recovery sometimes takes weird twists and turns that don't seem logical or fair.

I had this same kind of conversation with my H who took a while to say that the OW was not his "friend". There is a place where the WS thinks that these people have helped them to "see the light". With time, I think that goes away.

In any case, my H told me to trust him that he always wore a condom, he wasn't "THAT" stupid. Where is the logic there? "I'm stupid enough to have an A, but not that stupid". Anyways, he caught something which luckily was not passed to me. Maybe he just doesn't know how to use a condom. or....he IS that stupid, or guess what - condoms are no guarantee! And, he wants me to trust his judgement! See, I'm so right there with you.

But, for the sake of recovery, I don't point this out. I just try to stay focused on rebuilding both of our confidence levels and pointing these things out doesn't really help. You know, my H is at a point where he knows what I knew then, the OWs were sluts, they used him, he let them use them, and he was stupid, he did risk our relationship, he changed our relationship with his behavior, and I'm not sure if he even realizes that he risked my health. He probably thinks "see I told you, I picked ok, I didn't bring home anything THAT dangerous". But, some day probably when I'm sick or something, he'll realize that too. Sometimes letting them figure it out with time, on their own, from a book, or someone else other than from my angry moment is a better way for recovery to occur.

But, like I said, take it with a grain of salt...as you can see, I can barely stick to my plan!

Hope

I appreciate your encouragement. I really didn't think of his statement as him asking me to trust his judgement, I took it more as him telling me she isn't a bad person. I would like to think it wasn't about her, but about him, but I'm not sure if I can.

I've often try to see her in a better light but it is so hard. One in which she isn't the devil in carnate. On an intellectual level I of course know that whatever I think she is, my H is also. But on an emotional level I need to vilify someone and it can't be H if I'm trying to R with him, so she must take the brunt of my evil thoughts.

Thanks
Lisa

One in which she isn't the devil incarnate. On an intellectual level I of course know that whatever I think she is, my H is also.


--
For us, she is the devil incarnate. I read her emails - she was ACTIVELY trying to destroy a marriage. H was a confused, lying, cheat - but she was his cheerleader convinced that's how he should be leading his life - that it was all okay, that a man didn't need to be honorable to be loved and that marriage vows were something to be broken at will. She cheered him on, baiting him...

I've never been able to put H and OW on an even playing ground. You don't give drugs to an addict and claim to be his friend, you don't pour a drink for an alcoholic and claim to be his friend, you don't put your legs in the air when a married man looks for a soft shoulder....

Given all her atta-boys and encouragement.. and his apparent hesitation.. I just have never been able to do what you are attempting. I read your post with my jaw dropped. Our situations are quite different.

It is an interesting situation you find yourself in. Good luck with it.

Ami

I truly hope I can get to the point you are at one of these days. I think I could be further along with my obsessing about OW if we were further along in R. It has been 2 1/2 years and it is grueling.

"There is no way she could have done worse then he, it isn't even close." I would agree with this statement 100%. H is the one who took the vows with me, not her. He is the one I have children with, not her. Although I also hold her responsible in a moral and ethical way. But no matter what she did to entice him, it was his responsibilty to me, his marriage and his family, to not give in to temptation.

Lisa