WH just told me that he is bitter that I kicked him out of the house and that I never gave him back the keys to the house. Am I wrong, but I don't think he has any right to be bitter? I know he is being truthful with me about his feelings, and OK fine, I can understand being hurt, or diappointed, or many other emotions, but bitter? I told him he cheated on me, then on d-day 1 he said he wanted to work things out but cheated for almost another 2 years, then on d-day 2, swore once again he would do whatever it took including giving up the pot, but lied to me about it and never had any intentions of giving up the pot, although he knew what the consequences were (separation/divorce). And he's the one who's bitter? WTF?

My IC certainly nailed WH. IC told me that WH would be resentful because he feels he is being punished and doesnt feel he has done anything wrong. How can WH really feel bitter when he is the one who lied, and made the chocie to continue to smoke pot behind my back? I told WH I did not trust he was telling me the truth, which is why I never gave him the keys back. And when I realised he never had any intentions of giving up the pot I asked him to leave. He knew all of this...I did not hide my feelings, thoughts or intentions from him...yet he is bitter? WOW...what an injustice that has been done to HIM. Seriously, I just can't believe this crap! Where does he get off?

I wanted WH to elaborate, but he had to head off to work, so I told him we needed to talk some more and maybe he could come by after work. Right now I am pretty pissed that he has bitter feelings towards me for upholding my boundaries. I dont know why this even suprises me!

EDITED TO ADD: WH also said that there is so much pain inside of me (meaning me, not him) that he doesnt think we will ever be able to get past this. I said there's no way "we" will every know because we've never really tried. I said I tried for 2 years while you did nothing cause you were still cheating. Then I tried again for another year, while you were too busy getting high and lying to trully try. The fact is, "we" have never tried...all we have had is false R after false R. That's not trying. He gave up before we even began. What chance did "we" ever really have then? NONE!

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

>I wanted WH to elaborate, but he had to head off to work, so I told him we needed to talk some more and maybe he could come by after work. Right now I am pretty pissed that he has bitter feelings towards me for upholding my boundaries. I dont know why this even suprises me!

I don't know why it suprises you, either. I don't think you're REALLY suprised, are you? Doesn't make you feel any better, but you did pretty much see this one coming, thanks to your IC. So, the IC must be working! Maybe you could call it a little forward progress on your part...?

One question...he's still blame-shifting, looking for a gap in your defenses, and your response is "let's talk some more"? Ok, so either you're really getting some mental toughness, to invite his continued derisory discourse, or he DID find a little gap in your defenses. I'm not sure which...are you?

Well David, I hope he did not find a gap, lol. I am really pissed off right now...guess I want to understand "why" he feels bitter when I really don't think he has a right to. Not sure if it was his comment about being bitter for me kicking him out that pissed me off the most and sparked my curiosity or if it was a little something I forgot to mention. He also stated "I don't know if I want to come back just so you can kick me out again". WOW! What's your take on that line...especially since I wasn't asking him to come back? My thoughts are along the lines of your previous thoughts, he is still blamshifting!

We need to talk to the kids and this talk today was planned. We were trying to fgure out what to say to the kids. I didn't feel we were finished talking before he had to go.

EDITED TO ADD: He also said he doesnt like my little comments. I asked him what he meant by that. He said "last night you got upset with me because I called so and so Sweetie". I said "because it's not OK to call another woman Sweetie". He said he didnt see anything wrong with it and didnt like the fact that I made him "feel bad". I said "That's a boundary. When you're married you just don't call other women Sweetie, period, I don't care who she is." He didn't get it at all! He thought I overreacted by speaking up and telling him it was inappropriate.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal, I just don't want to see you subject yourself to unnecessary pain in the form of even allowing those verbal barbs to be hurled in your direction. Seems you already know why he's saying these things; he is just not willing to accept responsiblilty for his own behavior. I think you should adopt a new standard expression, for every snide comment he makes, something along the lines of "sucks for you" might do.

Cal, I am so sorry that you are dealing with all this. As you know so well, addicts will do anything to protect the addiction, particularly the ones that say they don't have one(yeah, right). And, they will demonize anyone who stands in their way....similar to how they can demonize whoever stands in the way of their A. In our situation, my H saw me as the villain and the reason he had to womanize and drink...and I was boring and tedious for thinking he drank too much. He was also "bitter" that he was stuck with someone who wanted to stop his "fun." I was married to an adolescent, who is slowly, slowly growing up.

As painful as it is, I am glad that you are seeing things clearly and being justifiably angry. I don't think the Cal of two years ago would have had the same response. I am proud of you and more importantly, you should be proud of yourself. You know what you need and are standing firm. You are not weak, dependent, controlling, whiney or defeated. You are strong, dignified and graceful. Yay.

((((Cal, my friend)))))

If a person believes they are entitled do something, and someone else lets them know it is not acceptable, then that person would probably be bitter.

If your husband thinks it's his right to smoke pot, lie, and have extramarital relationships, and you set boundaries to show that it is not OK, then he might be "bitter" that you took this action against him.

TomJ

<<He also stated "I don't know if I want to come back just so you can kick me out again". WOW! What's your take on that line...>>

Can you say "victim"? Ugh, cry me a river, buddy.

Cal, when he's not willing to accept FULL responsibility for the consequences of his actions then he is NOT mature enough to be your spouse. Stay strong, sweetie.

(And yes, calling another woman "sweetie" by my H would put me over the edge too. It's innapropriate.)

It is next to impossible to talk with someone who is still stuck in circular thinking and irrationality. Very early on, when my H was still foggy, I remember emotionally starting to spin with some of the comments he'd come out with. However, I remember trying to put my (logical and emotional) responses in check and instead ask him questions about his feelings. If I could ask the right series of questions that H really needed to think about and ask himself, it sometimes became clear to him how irrational he was being...which was more effective than me getting angry and responsive. I really was interested to know what, how and why he was feeling the things he was (though it was very hard to keep my horror, anger, disgust and dispair in check during these conversations). And for us, I think this Q/A format ended up helping him see the gaps in his reasoning.

So, your H feels bitter. I'd probe it more: gee, honey, that's a terrible feeling, but I'm confused. Can you explain why you feel bitter? Do you feel like you put forth efforts that I didn't recognize? What were the things you did that I didn't see? Are there things you think you did a good job of changing? Are there things you think you could have done better? What are you most proud of in trying to fix the marriage?

You and I and everyone on the boards here know that your H has fallen pretty short along the recovery path, but it'd be interesting perspective to hear answers to questions like this. And, I know; after asking him to elaborate, he was out the door. Another great strategy for the rationally-challenged. So, maybe before any talk happens, it'd be good to do a clock check, and say "what's your schedule like? I've got an hour I'm willing to talk with you. How long are you willing to talk? Can you promise if the discussion gets difficult, you won't find a reason to leave?" Doesn't mean he won't leave, but if you have some upfront assurance of how long he's available to chat, verbalized agreement of being willing to talk as long as you, and some minimal committment of talking even when the subject matter gets difficult, maybe it'll keep him there a bit longer.

Very hard to have a relationship when one person lives in the real world and the other is doing everything they can to avoid reality. ((((((((((((Cal))))))))))))) BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Hi Cal, It feels to me as if you H is expressing words he has formulated in talking to others about the separation and situation generally.  I can just hear such words he would say to his "friends".  And yes, he is acting his delusions (as we all do to a greater or lesser extent).  Everything said by others seems to ring true for me too.  I am left wondering, as I do about my own relationship:  "Do I accept these imperfections and still try to make things work, or not?".  The world is not perfect - And sometimes the difficulties in relationships can be the very things that allow us to make step changes towards happiness and understanding of life.  You seem to have stepped up a level here and that is great.  But, perhaps like I feel, you may notice more then the place your partner may be in more keenly - and the differences in where you are at between you.  Differences, separation etc lead to a closing down of relationship don't they.  I wish I could find a way to bridge these gaps myself as I can see you do too.  But the bridge has to be built from the other side too and it is sometimes not helpful to shout instructions from the other bank.  In a relationship the other person has to wake up to himself, perhaps with help, but in the end the waking up is his to make.

may you be safe and well

BlueIris writes: "So, your H feels bitter. I'd probe it more: gee, honey, that's a terrible feeling, but I'm confused. Can you explain why you feel bitter? Do you feel like you put forth efforts that I didn't recognize? What were the things you did that I didn't see? Are there things you think you did a good job of changing? Are there things you think you could have done better? What are you most proud of in trying to fix the marriage? "

--
Priceless!!

-Susan

And I agree on the "Sweetie" thing

>He also stated "I don't know if I want to come back just so you can kick me out again". WOW! What's your take on that line...


I think my response would be something like "You really don't have anything to worry about because right now I don't want you back, just so you can have another affair or continue your addictions." But I have to agree with Sunflower that this is a deflecting, blame-shifting statement that attempts to paint him as the victim, and you as somehow doing something wrong. You did nothing wrong, so don't allow his convince you that you did.

And I think my response to that would be:

You want a guarantee that you can live with me and I won't throw you out.

I want a guarantee that you can live with me and you won't have an affair and won't smoke pot.

(Since I won't throw you out unless you're smoking and/or having an A, does that mean your plan is to continue both?)



"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I think you are doing everything you can to preserve your sanity and health . From reading your posts I can tell that you gave your H so many chances to come clean, break from his addictions and get back into the marriage as a fully sharing partner. I agree with the everyone's responses on how to respond to H. It is his choice to be bitter, I think.... I hope all of us that are trying to work on the M and self, can somehow save ourselves from feeling that way
(((((Hugs))))
Lisa

Lisa, you make a really good point; all of us have experienced something that we can be really bitter about. What separates the chaff from the grain is that some people use their bitterness as a giant stopsign in life...just being angry about what happened and not looking to what they can do on their end to remedy the situation. Others can see what happened and be angry or sad, but look for ways to propel themselves forward, through and past the situation. Life isn't so much about what happens to us, but about what we choose to do as we have our individual experiences. Thanks, Lisa, for your slant on this - - its a reminder I need to hear on a regular basis so I don't get stuck in my own rut. BlueIris

Cal - Please don't take my responses of what I'd say to your H as a comment on something you haven't done, or should've done. You have given superhuman efforts that I continue to be in awe of. More hugs to you.

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

WH understands he did something wrong (lying) but felt that all the other stuff he did should have been good enough, and that he didnt deserve to be kicked out...says he isnt smoking every day. I said you were only willing to do so much, not all, not "whatever it takes" as you said. I said that was not good enough. That I told him exactly what I needed and he agreed to it, but then chose not to do it. I told him that I gave him many chances, that I did not kick him out the first time I caught him. I told him each time he would renew his promise to stop but then do it over, and over, and over again, and just kept lying and didnt understand what the big deal was. I said after a year of this (and 2 previous years of false R) I decided I had wasted enough time waiting for him to "wake up" and do the right thing and I felt I had no choice anymore but to uphold my boundaries. I told him he knew what the consequences were and chose to keep lying and smoking behind my back. He then said he admired me for having the strength to do what I did. Then immediately left! I think we talked for less than 15 minutes...and nothing about the children was resolved, since I would not agree to tell the children what I feel is a lie.

I have an IC appointment tomorrow....thank goodness, cause there have been some other developements regarding the children, especially our daughter. Which is another reason why the children need to be told the truth. I cannot talk about what is going on with my daughter right now because it is just too painful for me but please keep her in your prayers.



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Two thoughts Cal:  One is that I notice how I feel strongly about being completely honest with my children.  Second, I was feeling that perhaps your H (and may be other men) feel rather unmanly when wives take up and hold boundaries.  I can imagine this but it is the opposite for me - I like the idea of a strong person to relate to.  But, I read here quite often of the way men think they can simply treat their wives as weak, second class citizens and even much worse than that (How many women become slaves and abused in their own homes?).  I suppose  a man that depends for his sense of manliness on dominating a woman makes him really very weak and effectively dependent on her and I don't see that as healthy.  Those were my thoughts which may or may not be true in your case.  Strangely in my case I wonder if my wife was unfaithful because she could not feel womanly enough with me - She was brought up in a household wiht a very dominant father who bullied his family - May be she can only feel feminine with such treatment from a man - which is what she got from her OM as her boss who seemed to simply take what he wanted and dominate her with only a then veneer or pretense of real relationship.  He, himself told me about how he felt the importance of being dominant after the A.  Also, perhaps even more strangely, since the A she seems to have re-cast herself into the role of downcast and desperate seeker of my affection and, I also find this unnatractive.  Oh well.. perhaps this is another thread in itself and I will stop.

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Dear Jerry,

Thank you for your response. Right now, I do think my strength is scaring the crap out of him. If so, GOOD! He is bitter because I have not seen the error of my ways...that I kicked him out but by now I should be begging him to come back, pot and all, and Im not!!! I have remained strong, even when I have felt weak, when I have wanted to give in. I was thinking the same thing the other night that Trinity had said in her post "I could be right or I could be married". But then I realised I dont want to be married if that means I am not an equal partner, that there is no reciprocity in the marriage, and where my voice doesnt matter....if I have to give up everything I believe in, and what makes me ME, then I would rather not be married. That it's not about being "right" or "wrong", it's about me being able to be me. Even though I do still love him, I love myself more...finally! I am over the hump. I told my WH yesterday, everything has always been about you in this marriage and what you have awlays wanted...not anymore...my hopes and dreams matter too!

Jerry, I think you would really like to get back together with your wife, that you like being married. But I also think you (like me) are figuring out at what cost? What is the price I have to pay...what is it going to cost me? If our spouse has not changed in ways that really matter to us after infidelity, is it worth it to stay? Only each of us can search for that answer as it will be different for each of us. But I cannot stay in such a selfish relationship and continue to sacrafice the things I hold dear, when I am not getting anything in return. I just can't do that anymore. If the rewards and joy of staying, outweighs the pain and uncertainty of leaving then it is worth it to stay. But if the pain and uncertainty of staying, outweighs the endless possibilities that may lay ahead if you go, and you are willing to accept that there is a world of possibility out there with the potential to be better than this, or worse (which I doubt)...then maybe, just maybe it is time to go. Either way, there are no guarantees in life...you have to choose your own path. Once you let go of the fear (either way)...you will know your path. I was so afraid for so long Jerry...we all get to where we need to be in our own time.



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Dear Cal
Thank you... After reading your latest response to Jerry ( in this thread) I felt better...I am getting to that point of wanting H out of the house, because I have been feeling very lonely for a long time,( even if H is 8 feet in front of me in his chair, we don't talk very much, unless he is in the mood to talk.)..usually H is withdrawn into the TV...I think this feeling of lonliness with H in the house with me is becoming more painful than my fear of being physically alone in the house without H..
Lisa

>Even though I do still love him, I love myself more...finally! I am over the hump. I told my WH yesterday, everything has always been about you in this marriage and what you have awlays wanted...not anymore...my hopes and dreams matter too!

Sometimes true love means NOT giving your loved one what they want, and helping them to see that their behavior is wrong and offensive.

Cal / Lisa

It is sad how you can be so lonely with someone right there with you. But it is totally the way I feel. I think I may even be past the stage of feeling lonely with H home. I am starting to dread him being home. I guess feeling lonely when your with someone is even worse than actually being alone. Maybe that is a true sign for me that I am finished, although for some reason I contiue to hang on.

Cal, whatever your daughter is going thorugh I hope she is going to be alright.

Lisa

That was part of the problem for me for a long time. I felt alone in my marriage although my WH was still there. That said a lot to me! I felt alone because I was alone. He was not in the marriage with me. He did not want to engage in conversation, he did not want to figure out what the problems were, letalone fix them. He just wanted things to return to normal. What is normal after infidelity anyway? You cannot go back to the way things were...obviously it wasn't working. All I can say is that it takes two to make a marriage work. If one of you is not involved there is no marriage. It is a very lonely place to be...been there, done that....ain't goin' back to it!



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

((((((( Cal)))))))

Cal

My exh was also very bitter about me having "the nerve" to kick him out of his home.......after finding him in our bed with the OW and warning him that if there was further contact I was done and then finding further contact!

He was very selfish and it was all about him. It wasn't my feelings that came into play in his mind. He wasn't worried that I was hurting and needed him somewhere else, it was about the fact that I dared to confront him and to take away something that was his.

Sounds alot like a 2 year old doesn't it? Funny since that is pretty much how the whole mess went...me the mature grownup trying to deal with the **** that was left behind.....him the 2 year old that stomped his foot and expected everyone to do what he wanted.

If nothing else, this should show you that your H hasn't done anything to change himself and isn't remorseful for the things he has done. If he was, this wouldn't be an issue.