I’ve been thinking the last few days about the expectations each of us had/has regarding marriage. Chinook’s H is at a point where he says “he doesn’t know what he wants from a marriage”. Stuckinonespot’s Lisa has an H whose expectations are that he be a financial provider for his W and not beat her while she provides sexual gratification to him when he needs it. Cal’s H has the expectation that Cal will eventually come around and let Mr. Cal do whatever he wants because the M has always revolved around what he wants. For myself, I think my H had the expectation that as long as he was kind and loving at home, he could do whatever he wanted to on his own time.

For myself, I knew I didn’t want an M like my mom and dad’s: dad was controlling, domineering, verbally abusive and mom was pretty much a doormat. Very unbalanced. And I got an M that had much more balance than that - whoever cooked dinner, the other cleaned up; he did the taxes and I did the checkbook, etc. But its almost like I just scratched the surface as to what my expectations of a reasonable (not fairytale—that’s a different post) were. We had many pre-M spoken discussions about A’s because H’s dad’s longterm A was discovered while we were dating, and their divorce was in the works as we were planning our wedding. But I certainly never voiced anything about my expectations of respect and safety...how much sex is the “right” amount of sex...how important was sex to each of us?...what constituted a good marriage in each of our opinions?...how important is romance in the marriage?...what does romance look like to each of us? I’m not sure I’ve got a good handle on everything I hope or expect to have in a good marriage, because there’s a lot that’s still buried in my psyche.

I’m not really sure where this thread is going. But so much of what I’ve been reading on the boards lately seems to come back to these muddy issues of unclear expectations - or the realization that our spouse had completely different expectations than we did. As H’s and W’s, there probably are a lot of us who really didn’t have good pre-DDay conversations of what we wanted to give and get in an M (or maybe we just assumed some universal truths). Likewise, we didn’t have the conversation about what we as spouses were willing to give to our husband or wife to help meet the other’s expectations. And my H and I definitely didn't have the conversation of what happens when one of us discovers the M isn't living up to our expectation. Sort of like signing a lifetime commitment contract without understanding clearly what our conditions and the other party’s conditions of the agreement would be.

Just thoughts rumbling through my brain on a cold, rainy day. BlueIris


"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

This is a very thought provoking post for me. H & I certainly did not have any conversations prior to marrying on the expectaions of the marriage. There was an assumed expectation of fidelity on my part. But I believe if we had spoken of fidelity in marriage H would have agreed it was a given.

We lived together prior to marriage for over a year, sharing values, chores, finances, vacations, friends etc. We lived as if we were married. Since we had tested the waters prior to marriage and everything was going great, I assumed everything would work its way out in marriage. And I thought it was until d-day.

Even if couples have conversations prior to marrying about all their expectations I can't imagine there are many that would say infidelity is OK (yes there are open marriages and marriages where one spouse cheats and the other ignores it). So how does someones mind/values about infidelity change?

WS - What would your view of infidelity be if your spouse was cheating at the same time as you?

Lisa

We had talked about most things before we married.
We both agreed that fidelity was important - that our vows were solid - that divorce was not a word in our marital vocabulary.
It all changed 4 years ago.
He had an A...short PA...very long EA.
Divorce was a word he threw around all the time.
I expected him to be faithful. I expected him to love me enough to be with only me. Even when the A started, I expected him to end it when I asked...and when I asked...and when I asked...and when i asked...and when I asked.
I expected a marriage that lasted 40+ years with love, friendship, committment, with no separations.
Now, I have no expectations; I should, but I don't. I suppose I expect him to come home, support me, care for our family...but I don't expect much else. That's sad to me.

Denise

"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"

WS's comment about not knowing want he wanted came from a conversation I started about what would happen if we get back together. Basically, I would insist that we sit down and clearly commmunicate what we each expected and wanted in our marriage (even write it down as a contract). We should have done this before we married.

Ironically, we both came from very different backgrounds and both thought the other person was on the same page. WS describes my family as very "Ozzy and Harriet" because divorce is rare (only one in the entire extended family) and everyone believing the "until death" part of the vow (from the start I told him that "I play for keeps" when it comes to marriage). I saw the give and take of working marriages and knew how hard it was. I also married late and never had any long-term R's before him (why bother if it wasn't permanent?)

WS, on the other hand, had his father die when he was young and his Mom move in with his step-father within the year (never married so she could keep her H's death benefits). He felt like left-over from the marriage and I don't think he has ever excepted his step-father "replacing" his father. Also, WS went from long-term R to long-term from age 16 onward (never single for more than a month) and had 1 common-law wife (she had an abortion and dumped him while he was at basic training so he could support them). His extended family is spread across the country and he never saw what a "stable" marriage looked like. He saw marriage in the same light as his common-law R - something that can be ended if it got too difficult. He even said to me, during a fight, "why does it have to be so hard?" (That's when I realized he didn't know what a marriage really is)

We literally saw marriage as two different things and, as a result, were doomed to fail. If we get back together, it will only be if we can walk on the same path towards the same goal instead of two paths going in the same general direction.

Chinook

As they say, it is no coincidence that my WH and I were attracted to each other and would marry. WH was looking for someone like his dear mom. Someone who would give and give and give, and then give some more. That was his mom and that was me! All the men had to do was work and make money. EVERYTHING else was up to the women. That is the way it is in their family.....and ALL the men cheat (cultural thing perhaps?)! Only one male that I know of has not cheated, but he was cheated on by his wife. Nothing worse than that! They are now divorced. The man is supposed to cheat but not the woman. The woman was supposed to look the other way as long as she was taken care of. Mind you, I did not find most of this out until AFTER we were married. By then it was too late, as I took my vows VERY seriously. Oh, and the men are not supposed to be caught. Once you're caught you have to do the right thing, fun time is over and you have to give up your mistress, or just get better at hiding it. Only an idiot gets caught (duh!), so then you get what you deserve and no one is going to save you!

We dated and lived together for 4 years before we got married. We knew each other pretty well. We used to talk about EVERYTHING. We even talked about infidelity BEFORE we got married. We both thought it was wrong. We both came from homes touched by infidelity and we understood the pain. We also made an agreement that if either one of us got to the point where we felt we were going to cheat we would tell the other, and that we would divorce before doing something that hurtful to one another. Obviously he did not feel as strongly as I did about our wedding vows, nor did he take our agreement to heart. Talking about it beforehand does not prevent it from happening. It is when someone is vulnerable, they need to speak up, but they seldom do, do they? Instead they make up justifications in their mind, rewrite marital history, and make their BS out to be some villain....or they simply feel entitled for whatever reason.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

EDITED TO ADD: My WH also showed his immaturity when he said "marriage isnt supposed to be work". Not work on the husband's part...that is what he learned from his family. It is the woman's job to keep her husband happy and to keep the marriage together. I decided I wanted something better than my parents had, and I truly thought I had that since I married for love, not for money or convenience. The hardest thing for me was to realise that love isnt always enough, the old "love conquers all". It is a fantasy.

Yes, I can see how the marriage relationship, like any other, has the seeds sometimes of its own destruction from way back in the past.  In my case wife came from a family where her father simply walked all over his wife and family too and she fought with her brother.  In this she learned that men are not to be trusted, she did not learn love in a family - she had layers of protection built up.  In my case my family background was made of both parents married twice and I was brought up to really know how important a stable marriage was - and how bad infidelity was.  I went into the marriage with such a deep conviction that it should be forever and she did not really enter into it with trust and deep commitment.  This is all clear now and the A exposed the difference.  Looking back I can see the signs but there is no wisdom after the event is there - And it seems very difficult to avoid infidelity in marriage.  Nowadays I don't have the same closed mind and belief I had before because in fact that brought a kind of blindness.  Nowadays I can see that infidelity happens and is not rare.  Nowadays, strangely I find I am more in the place of my wife and am mistrusting and protective to myself.  But, nowadays I also find it hard to re-make a marriage.  I can't seem to get away from how hurt I am and this, I can see, seems to be very fundamental and goes even beyond the marriage relationship - Nowadays I feel abandoned, uncared for, not held, rejected, unloved at a very deep and profound level that goes deeper even than anything I can attribute to just the marriage relationship - it is very profound - but I digress from the subject.  All that I can say is that my self determination and expections in the marriage were perhaps an indication of something much deeper going on that even I was not really aware of.

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Amber and I talked about our expectations pre marriage but now I see I said what were our families and societies expectations and not really mine. Looking back, since it was our first marriages, I question if any pre maritial talks would have prepared us for the realities of marriage because at that stage you really do not know what marriage is about because we had not lived it. I see that I did not take my vows seriously nor did I fully commit to the relationship. I also thought I was a good husband because I was a good provider and after all what a wife does not know does not hurt her. My selfish attitude prevented me from being the sharing partner that a good husband is.

It was when I was on my journey toward healing that we started to communicate openly and honestly. My masks had to be removed as I looked into self. We both began to see the real person in each other. We have worked toward many common goals. This getting on the same page continues to be a struggle. We have got on the same page with most things and for the rest have a clear understanding of the other's viewpoint. This has us perhaps not on the same page but at least in the same play book so that we can continue to work as a team.


Rett

I think my H was also raised in a home in which M was unbalanced , it was the woman's job to keep H physically satisfied, happy, keep the house clean, the H didn't have to do much more than bring a paycheck home..This is also what H was taught to expect..We have had discussions thru the years about this..I have expressed that these unbalanced expectations were too much of a burden on me, as I have also been working full time for these past 23 years ( many times me being the only one to keep the family afloat financially)...Today, after being married 30 years, I still feel that he won't let go of those beliefs, that it is the womans job to make the M good.........Post A if we are to survive together, without pulling each others hair out, he is going to have to do what it takes to to change those old expectations of M

Lisa