Hello all - I haven't posted in a while, but had a question on which I am seeking suggestions and input from BS's (and FWS's, for that matter). I am a FWS who is trying very hard to save my marriage. My main question right now is what I can do to try to reestablish trust.

There are many things I have done and we have done as a couple. I want briefly to describe them here, just to focus my question. "D-Day" was about a year-and-a-half ago. Since that time, we have both been working so hard. We have been going to marriage counseling regularly, and I have been in IC for over a year. I historically had trouble opening up to my feelings, whether to myself or others (which of course helped lead me into the A), and have done my best to make therapy useful and productive by opening up as much as I ever have. I completely cut off contact with the OP on D-Day and have made no attempt at contact since, other than a goodbye email that was written jointly with my wife. My A happened largely during travel for business, so I have cut down on business travel to a bare minimum, to the greatest extent I can. I have traded cell phones with my wife, and she has open access to my work and personal cell phones. I make sure she has my schedule, itineraries, and to the extent I can, let her know where I am at pretty much all times. I have given her a key to the only locking drawer in my office, she has access to my work emails, I send her emails from my hand-held when I am on the road, I take pictures of where I am to prove I was there. I have closed my personal bank account, and she has complete access to all of my spending records. I share with her every thought I have of the OP, any sexual dream, any dream I have where the OP shows up (thankfully infrequent). Because my infidelity grew in large part out of a sexual compulsion/addiction, I have worked very hard (and successfully) to get that addiction under control, through my therapy and through meds. The list goes on, but hopefully you get the overall picture.

The current challenge is that if I do something nice or thoughtful, it is in itself something of a trigger for my wife, because she remembers that I did nice things for her and said loving things during the A. She points out that even with all the specific things I am doing, whether I have done them because she asked or because I am trying to find my own ways to show her my recommitment, she still distrusts me. She has pointed out that there can always be another cell phone hidden somewhere, can always be another person in the car with me, can always be some hidden computer account. I accept responsibility for all of this by breaking the trust. Now I am looking for ways to earn it back.

I know the best thing I can do is continue to be a good human, and to honor my marriage at all times. I know I have to be open and honest, even when it is frankly scary for me to do so. I deeply hope that by being trustworthy, she can again come to trust me enough that she is not in such pain every time I am out of sight. I recognize that she has to make her own journey through this, and I am trying my best to support her.

I am seeking any suggestions - what worked for you that is not included on what I listed above; what helped save your marriage; what more can I do; when and how did some degree of trust return for you? Thank you all for any thoughts you can share, and for taking the time to help a recommitted FWS save a marriage, and if that is not possible (a heartbreaking thought), at least to help me seek some small measure of relief from the pain I've caused for my sweet wife.

Best wishes to you all.

Honestly, I think the only thing more you can do is give your BS tiem to deal with it and accept the fact that she is unable to trust you. She is right about the fact that you could be covering one illicit act by being open about everything else. WS's job description actually includes the need to lie about what he does - he's a spy in training, no joke - and we have often talked about how easy it is to be 99% honest and still get away with some blatantly wrong stuff. My choice is to either trust him or not (and, luckily, lieing was never part of the A for more than a week). In the end, trust has nothing to do with him and everything to do with me.

I'm not saying you should stop what you're doing. In fact, just the opposite - keep doing it as it will help her to trust you again. The more times she is able to spot test you and find you innocent, the more easier it will be to accept the fact that you have changed.

As for her thinking you may have another email account, give her full access to the machines. She may even want to take a class or two on how to "dig for dirt" (there are ones out there for monitoring teen computer usuage). As for other stuff, there is only so much you can do to prove yourself. It is surprisingly easy to create a false identity that doesn't trigger government red flags (i.e. don't do anything with your taxes, paycheque, banks or healthcare. US rules may be more strict, though). Don't point this out to her, of course (creates more paranoia) but realize that this is where her mind might be going. And the only way to chaneg that is to be open and give her time.

As a side note - the conversations about false identities came up in a conversation not A related and, since it was done in a cafe, got us some strange looks from the waitress (hee, hee)


Chinook

My comments are:

Firstly that you are doing well - Keep it up - Good deeds really count right now

Secondly I found out as a BS that the trust was most about whether I could trust that my WS wife really did love me and not what she did or might do - After the first 6 months to a year of the mechanics of the A were gone over the real issue was "Can I trust this woman with my deep down self ie my vulnerability?".  This was the real problem and still is after 2+ years post D-day.  This is the thing I can't seem to bring myself to give her again.  I thought I had done a lot of forgiveness and reality facing - But the plain simple fact is that this person did not even treat me as I would treat someone I did not care for very much - The offence is as deep as the BS had exposed themselves in love to the WS - And in my case that exposure was very deep and vested with all sorts of quite profoundly important dimensions of myself like "Am I really a worthwhile, loveable person?".  If your WS partner brings infidelity into that deep place of the heart the betrayal feels like a knife into the very existence of the BS.  This is how it is with me and forgiveness therefore seems to require that I have to die in some way to reach it.  Does this make any sense to you that it is more than the marriage that is betrayed, it is the actual existence or soul of your spouse that is burnt up.  If this is true in your relationship and you do get to understand this, then you may appreciate the difficulty of the journey back into some kind of reasonable relationship.

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Hey there, fellow fWS...

I received some great advice from a mentor within a few months after dday. He told me that I need to bring up the topic of the A to my wife, on a fairly regular basis, and tell her something like "You know, I was thinking about the A (cuz we do think about it - a lot, right!?) and I just want to say that I am SO sorry for the way I behaved. I really regret hurting you the way I did.

In other words, own your choices, be vulnerable, be empathetic (not sympathetic) and even disclose your own pain. Realize that your wife WILL be in pain for a long time, and rather than hope that she's not in pain, just allow her the chance to live it, to voice it - openly and with no fear of repercussions or dissapointment from you.

In addition, my wife and I have been reading a book called Torn Asunder by Dave Carder (great book). Well, we actually have finished the book now and are working through the workbook. Anyway, in the book, Carder states that the the WS's transparent manner in which they communicate their sorrow for the pain they've put the BS through is absolutely crucial for recovery. But then he also says something that is at first somewhat astounding. He writes that the best "guarantee" a BS can get from the WS that infidelity will never happen again is expression of their own pain and grief over what has happened, and that includes grieving over the lost relationship between himself and the OW. The BS needs to know that the WS is hurting because of his/her own poor choices. That's not easy to really understand, but then Carder clarifies it by saying something like "You don't really grieve over something that isn't irrevocably lost". That really struck home with  me. I don't know about you, but I really did go through a painful grieving time, and it included grieving the loss of the marriage I knew, the loss of fellowship with my wife that I once enjoyed, fellowship with God because of my sin, and even the loss of what could've been a good, healthy relationship between myself and the OW - if I'd only...

I didn't read in your post how far past dday you two are, would you mind sharing that with us?

Hi Re,

You seem to be doing a lot of hard work. Keep it up, as you are on the right track. I am wondering if your W is in IC because if she isn't, I strongly recommend that she go. She needs to for herself.

One thing that helped me was when my H told me that he understood that I was hurting and that the A was ALL his responsibility and NONE of mine and that if I decided that I couldn't stay married because the pain of living with him was too great that he would understand if I left and that my leaving would be his fault. His telling me that helped me to let go of any feelings that I HAD to stay married and that in some way I had an out and that he wouldn't blame me if I left. Mind you, I didn't want to leave. I just wanted to stop hurting and to know that he loved ME.

One thing our IC/MC (we share and it works!) told him recently is that he must formulate a specific plan to prevent his cheating again. He is supposed to write down specific points to share with her and me. Perhaps your wife would benefit from your doing such a plan.

Good luck. Hang in there and remember that you didn't get to the point of permitting yourself to cheat in a day, a month, a year, and your wife won't recover that quickly either. If she is like I was, she is hurt and terrified--even though you have made changes.

Encouraging fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

edited for content

I think David's suggestion about asking your wife about her feelings and sharing your remorse often are good suggestions. If your wife has a headache, you'd probably ask her once in a while if it is bothering her, if it is feeling any better, and if there is anything you can do to help her. If you had a role in causing it, you'd be wise to offer your apology and reiterate it every so often.

The situation in recovery is not that different, but the recovery time is much longer than an occasional headache.

Your has her own healing to do, and she needs to work through the difficulties of allowing herself to trust you, to give up the justifiable anger she has toward you, to let go of the resentment that an affair precipitates on a person. It’s not easy to “get clean” of these things, especially when you’re trying to do it on your own willpower. Your patience is the key at this point, but at the same time, your encouragement to help her in the right direction is also needed.

TomJ

Lots and lots of patience, perseverance, and love are needed. Realizing she is probably experiencing symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder, she is grieving really deeply, the hurt is so unbelievable.

I commend you for working on your "stuff". I know for me, a big turning point was when my FWS really starting digging in and working on his "stuff". When I saw him really proactively digging into his childhood issues, personality stuff etc etc...it helped me in turn to trust a bit more. We really had to get to "WHY"...that was so important to me...because if you dont the "WHY" you cant really stop it from happening again.

Hope that helps. Best of luck to you, I know it is not an easy journey for either party.

Hopearoo

First, I want to commend you for all that you have been doing in the last year and a half since DDay. It's exhausting, it's frustrating when we want to see results of our "work" quicker, and you wouldn't be human if you didn't feel that.

I remember that deep frustration at thinking "I'm doing everything I know how to do, EVERYTHING, why am I not seeing progress in his healing?" (I'm the FWS, btw.) I would vent here repeatedly and receive validation from the good people here, because frankly my H just wasn't able to give it in the midst of his deep pain and anger. So feel free to post here more if you feel a need to.

I found a great amount of relief when I just accepted that there was going to be no trust for a long time, and I'd keep doing what I was doing, with the knowledge and peace that I was NOT cheating, nor tempted, and that eventually he would see it....I didn't know how long it would take, had no idea, but I knew that continuing to prove to him there was no time limit on his healing would do more to help the process than hinder it.

Mind you, I'm coming up on 6 years past DDay, so I'm much further along in this journey than you are. My H has a hard time with forgiveness in general, so the idea he could even continue a M with me at all is remarkable and speaks to his love for me despite what I did and his desire to regain a healthy M.

Give your W time, try very hard to accept that there is a different time frame for every BS so it's impossible to say how long it will take her to start to regain trust, and try not to be frustrated....speaking from personal experience, that only causes more anger and hurt at a BS feeling like they're not entitled to grieve in whatever framework of time that's required for them before trust can begin to be restored. You can cause more damage. I know, I did it.

Pat yourself on the back for all of the work you HAVE done, even if your BS isn't capable of patting you on the back herself, ok? You are doing the work involved in A-recovery, and so please don't tire from the process. It's a marathon, but as time goes by you'll start to see the fruits of your labor in healing your M. She's still there, isn't she? Despite her doubts and anguish and lack of trust, she's still there. Keep on keepin' on.

Sunflower

Dear Recommitted,

Let me echo what so many others have said here: it sounds like you are doing a really wonderful job of making yourself transparent and accountable and of trying to reconnect and recommit to your W. We should all be so lucky to have someone working this diligently in recovery. You definitely should be commended. Patience and perserverence are now important elements.

I was very struck by what Jerry said. Its easy as a BS to get caught up in the specifics of the A and the acts of betrayal. Those are very specific wounds that I know I can get distracted by and focus on. But there is that deeper level of betrayal that he speaks of. (Jerry: you’ve given the best verbalization I’ve seen to date as to what betrayal really is at its core.) Understanding the depth of this “soul betrayal” may give you some glimmer into the arduous path you put your W on. There is certainly a need to recover from the pain of knowing the down and dirty details of an A. It’s a whole other journey for a BS to look further into themselves, their identity, their vulnerability and how to salvage what was ignored or disregarded by their WS.

David’s advice from his mentor is something I pray to see in my own situation. It is very draining and depressing to constantly have to be the one to bring up the A topic. And David’s advice is a bit of a twist: it isn’t asking a WS to say “Hey, how are you feeling today? Was it a tough day for you? Any triggers we should talk about?” Those are really lovely thoughts. But my understanding of what David’s saying is that a WS needs to begin dialogues about where the WS is in the process. As painful as it would probably be for me, if my H saw someone on the street or on tv that reminded him of OW, I would certainly hope that he would say something to me...not because he “should” do that, or because it’s the template of how I want our recovery to look, but because he honestly is seeing and feeling something that’s A-related. The bulk of what a lot of us BS get are spouses who are desperate to focus on the future and to put so much of the A away on a shelf. Perhaps WS look too much to the future and BS look too much at the A past. Instead, it would be good to feel balance between all those temporal pieces.

Lastly, you said “My A happened largely during travel for business…”.

You have not really shared the details of your story (EA? PA? ONS’s? Duration of A?) and, believe me, I understand how very difficult that is (It took me months to gather up the courage to tell my story). And I’m not asking you to share it now; if you’re ever comfortable doing that, it needs very much to be something that you do when you’re ready to do it. However, this phrase really concerned me. It speaks very much to compartmentalization - not only during the A, but also potentially how you continue to see it. If there were emotional attachments involved with your OW or even just scheduling logistics that you had to put into place for ONS’s, your A was happening from the moment you first crossed the ethical line to the day NC was put into place. Putting this into perspective with your post’s question, if you’re focusing making your W feel safe while you’re on a business trip, but not understanding that she sees the A in a broader spectrum, you’re missing all the other moments of anxiety that she’s experiencing minute to minute of every day. Just something to consider.

Guess I don’t really have much advice myself to offer. Perhaps finding books on healing broken trust? Patience. Time. Understanding. Since your DDay, can you point to anything(s) you’ve done that really seemed to leave a favorable impression on your W? Use those past successes as your guide. I wish you both the best. BlueIris


"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

You sound like you are on the right track....feeling the pain you have caused her is true remorse. Allow yourself to feel it. Letting your wife witness your pain for hurting her is one of the most healing things you can do in my opinion because a BS needs know you feel it. She may not acknowledge this for some time...but she will one day.

As the others have said it will take a lot of time. Just remain vigilant and consistant. Just be there for her. Let her feel her feelings. Answer her questions with honesty and sincerity. Hold her and tell her you love her. Express your remorse frequently. Show concern for her...ask her how she is...ask her if she would like to talk...ask her if there is anything you can do to comfort her and reassure her. Even when she gets angry be there for her. No matter what it takes or how long it takes, continue to be there for her!

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

>"But most of all, you have to understand that she will never trust you in the way she did before D-day. I trust only because my H is acting trust worthy now, he no longer gets blind trust. To some degree, all though I give him a lot more leeway then this statement will imply, he is guilty until he proves his innocence now."

I'd just like to first state that "blind trust" is never a good thing, and includes unrealistic expectations, which will always lead to sure failure and disappointment. But further, I would like to delineate that the above statement does not represent everyone's experience, and has certainly not been my experience. At this point in our marriage, my wife and I both have a better, more complete, more trusting relationship than ever, and with eyes wide open we expect it to only improve from here. But to be clear, the affair did not make this happen. The affair was certainly cataclysmic and resulted in a paradigm shift, but this relatively new way (at least new for us) of living and responding to life certainly could've happened without the cataclysm if we'd just done the hard work all along.

Thank you all for your sincere and thoughtful input. I know that this is a marathon, not a sprint (goodness knows, in the beginning when I tried to make it a sprint, I just went very rapidy in circles). I just want to be sure that I am following the right maps in this marathon; it would be a pity for me and my BS if all this running didn't get us across the finish line some day. More tired, bruised, changed for the experience, but the finish line nonetheless.

A few comments. First, for the idea of having a plan not to cheat again. I feel like I have a pretty good plan in place, but hadn't really thought about literally writing it out. I have discussed it in couples therapy and with my BS, but there may be merit for all of us to see it in writing in front of us. I'll ponder that one.

Someone asked how long it has been since D-Day. It is 18 months. I know that doesn't seem long to many of you, particularly those who have been on this road longer - but every day that passes, for me at least, is another step towards true recommitment.

Interesting thoughts about sharing my own grieving and pain. I know I get so caught up in my BS' pain that I often overlook or discount my own. For me, the relationship with the OW is not something I grieve or even really miss. It was a giant mistake; I allowed my own shortcomings and addiction to become the fodder for a very manipulative, immature person. Unlike David's comment, there really was never a real situation where I could have had a long term or potential for a successful relationship with this person. (And that, by the way, only makes me even more ashamed that I risked my marriage and my true love for this unpleasant OW.) So I don't grieve for anything I lost there. Instead, I grieve for the damage done to our marriage. That is probably something I can do a better job in communicating. It is easy for me to think that no matter how great my pain, my BS' is greater, so mine doesn't bear attention or discussion. The fact is that I have my own sharp ache all day, every day, and I mourne for what we have lost.

That actually picks up yet another thread in some of the responses to my message. What I miss the most in some ways is unconditional love, and perhaps blind trust as well. But as was noted by responders, blind trust really isn't the wisest or most realistic thing in the world, and I think that is probably true for unconditional love. Now I work on embracing love that has to be worked on, every day, diligently. And really, shouldn't that be true in any good relationship? It has taken me way too long in my life to embrace the notion that I should take nothing for granted.

As for bringing up the A, that is probably something I still need to work on. As I have shared with my BS, when she is in a better mood and things are going well, that is the last thing I want to do. When she is in a crummy, angry mood, likewise, I don't want to bring it up. Sort of chicken sh*t of me, actually; I will have to do better. It does sound like my experience is a bit different than some others. I don't spend a lot of time dwelling on the A or the WS. When I do have thoughts of the A or the WS, I do tell my spouse. If I see someone driving in a car who looks similar to the OW, I tell my wife that; as I mentioned before, if I have a dream with the OW in it, I tell my spouse as soon as possible. It is unpleasant for me to see the WS in those ways, and I want my wife to know that, both to help show her that I'm not happy to "see" the OW in those contexts, and also because I promised I would share the information (that is one of the steps that will help me long term from a straying path).

Finally, as for telling my story (the story of my A and how I got there), I don't know that I'd feel comfortable doing it here, or that I'd know what either I or my BS would get out of it being posted here. I have told ther story several times now, in detail (admittedly very haltingly in the beginning) to my wife, to my individual therapist, to the psychiatrist I went to for my meds, and in less detail to my and my wifes' best friends and my mom. I feel such tremendous humiliation of how poorly I acted that I feel I'm now read to broaden my audience further. Perhaps that is too selfish, coming from a FWS, but it is honest!

Enough prattling on from me. Thank you all again for your insights, and for your welcoming a FWS into your site. May each of you achieve the happiness that you deserve.

Oops - I hit send too soon. One more thought to respond to. It is fair to say that the A did not just happen while I was on business trips. It permeated the fabric of my marriage, my work, my life with my children, like a poison gas cloud. I think what I meant was that the physical contact part of the A happened while I was on the road for business. Thank you for the clarification.

Which leads me to a follow up question. Any other tips from folks on how I can give comfort whe I do occassionally still have to be on the road for business? I have cut out overnight trips almost entirely, even if it means getting up at crazy hours or commuting long distances. Those are discomforts I can readily offer and live with. But any ideas that folks have of things to help during the times I am out of sight - whether that is a road trip, or being at my office, or being at a baseball game with our kids - would really be welcome. I hate that I violated the trust so badly, and again know there is no quick cure.

Thanks again.

.<< Instead, I grieve for the damage done to our marriage. That is probably something I can do a better job in communicating. It is easy for me to think that no matter how great my pain, my BS' is greater, so mine doesn't bear attention or discussion. The fact is that I have my own sharp ache all day, every day, and I mourne for what we have lost. >>

This was the pain I was personally talking about. Your BS needs to know you are in pain for what you have done, not because you miss the A or the OP...but because you made the biggest mistake of your life and you regret the pain you have caused her and the destruction to the marriage. That is the pain the BS needs to see. If she saw you hurting over missing the A and the OP it would only cause her more pain. I hope you have conveyed this to her. She also needs to see that you are indeed 100% commited to her and the marriage before she can even begin to reinvest herself in you and the marriage.

You really sound as if you are doing the right things, and as a couple as well. The fact that you go to couples counselling shows a willingness on your BS's part as well. The fact that you are reaching out to others in hopes of bettering your marriage and helping your wife says a lot about the two of you and how you feel...it is worth it




~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

1. Time
2. Reassurance of your love for her
3. Understanding of her ups and downs
4. Sympathetic ear for her pain and anguish, no matter how much it hurts you to see or hear it
5. Transparency - give her proof and reason to believe

You are asking for ideas so here are a few practical ideas. My H used business travel or he used it as a cover when he was actually just on vacation so I am in the situation your wife is. I am deathly afraid of the time when he will have to go on a trip without me. So here are some ideas that would make me feel better.

1. Give her a bank account that you fund with money that she can use to send a private investigator to watch you while you are on any trip you take that she is not taking with you. It should be an automatic deposit from your paycheck into an account that she sets up and only she has the password for. She won't want you to see if a deduction has come out of the account to pay someone before they get there, or have you see the purchase of the airline ticket that would give you warning to send your OW off into the night. Write her a check for $1000 to start with.

2. She can also use this money to come and stay in your hotel room any night that you are on a business trip. She can get an air ticket and do that whenever she likes without telling you she can just show up.

This is really important that she knows, that you know that she can come or send someone at any time to check up on you. She doesn't have to go every time in that situation. What's more important is that you must encourage her to do this at least once to prove to her that it is ok with you to spend the money. (My Husband hasn't traveled since and I've given up my job so I will be able to travel with him in the future, I won't let him go alone. I have let him stay at our vacation house as long as friends were there with him.)

3. Leave all of the receipts from your trip in a designated area so she can see them. Bring your cell phone, and blackberry, and personal, and business credit card bills home and put them where she can see them. DO NOT MAKE HER ASK YOU FOR THEM, just leave them where she can find them. Print a TRW or other credit card report at least quarterly and leave it in the same location so she can be assured that every credit card you have is known to her.

4. My husband offered to put at tracer on his car so I could verify where he was at any time. I haven't told him to do that yet, he has several cars, but I know which is his favorite. I will insist he do that if he uses his car to travel for business.

5. Give her access to your cell phone activity on-line. She can see where you are calling from at any minute of the day. It lists at least within rough proximity what city you are calling from.

6. This is a no-brainer that you probably already put in place and should do just out of normal courtesy and for emergencies. Leave your Hotel name, address, phone number, and room number for her. Also, any facility that you may be visiting and a personal contact for her to call.

7. If it's allowed by your work, always invite her to join you.

8. If there is someone at work that she knows and trusts that knows or that you can tell about the incident that she can call and check in with that would be great. Otherwise, at least a contact at the location you are at that she can call and "verify you've arrived safely". My H was in our home town for a business event, but he was out late so I called to verify that his company was actually having an event at the location he said they were at. I was going to drive by to verify his car was there but wasn't able to.

9. When you arrive call her with the room number and ask her to call you back so that she knows you are where you say you are. She is allowed and you expect her to call any time of the night. My H did work just after the A in a nearby town, he set it up so I could call the land line at the office which I could verify on the internet. I call him a 11pm, 1am, 2am. He always answered it in a place where I could hear his male coworkers in the back ground. You might get pushy with her and insist that you are working to build trust, you don't expect to have it yet, and that you insist she call you at least twice. That it would make you feel better if she did. It is, of course, up to her.

10. Put a keystroke tracer software on your computer and show her how to use it. Show her how to change the password. This will give her some sense of knowing if you have other e-mail accounts. Sadly, she'll know you can still do whatever your heart desires at work or an internet cafe. You may install one there and give her permission to stop by and say hello, whenever she wants and when she's there she can run the tracer - although your work may take some exception to that for confidentiality reasons, depends what you do. I can't do that with my H, but when we passed his office one night I had him pull over, take me in, and I looked at 3 weeks of internet history. It was several months after dday so he would have had to be very diligent in erasing ilicit lookups. He's in IT so he could have had a separate log-on created.

There is always a way to do it, that is what we Betrayed have to learn to live with and accept. It's much easier to accept that when your H has not betrayed you before. After he has betrayed you and shown that he is capable, we will always(?) question our judgement, wonder if we're being naive...again, or wondering if we're just plain old stupid to believe in our H after he demonstrated that he was capable of forgetting us, putting us on a shelf, disrespecting us and themselves with the most dispicable, deceptive behavior, and lying straight to our face. So if you are missing the trust deal with it, so is she. You had a choice in the matter, she didn't. You are both agreeing to work through that very big problem together.

On the emotional level, my H often says that he doesn't think about the A (6 weeks, different women, apparently none to little emotional attachment - it's pretty apparent from the call logs showing calls to multiple women on his way to and from visits with OW.) I find that somewhat disturbing, it seems like it must be a lie to me, he is still trying to protect me or himself, compartmentalize, or not address the issue. I would prefer that he be somewhat more able to speak about it, the feelings associated with it. He rarely initiates conversation and when he does its because I sigh or something and he asks if I'm ok.

I don't believe the trust will return until he tells me something of his own free will. He has only ever revealed anything to me under threat of me leaving him - dday, pulling his bills, delivering the bills. Three times I have had to threaten him and all three times more of the story unravels. I just wonder what else there is to tell.

Ground rule I've set. He is not to tell me any detail I don't ask for - I have enough triggers (having seen naked pictures of OW1 on the internet a la My Space). Unless...
from anything I have said to him, I have indicated it would be important to me
he thinks it might be important to me
it is important to him to get it off his chest
if there is a threat to us as a result of his behavior - financial, identity stealing, health, etc.

So far...nothing.

((((Hope 2))))

And to Recommited19- I want you to know I feel your sincerity in your posts. Other people saw that sincerity in my FWS for a long time before I could (obviously). But it did help me to know that other people felt that. (Although that was a battle too, because he lied to chaplains, counselors, etc...right in front of me)...so it was awhile, before I trusted that...and it came after he finally came "FULLY" truthful to the table..and I do at times still wonder if all that was dark is truthfully in the light...

HOWEVER...

NOW..a year later...people that we know and trust, really do believe him and feel he is sincere, and that helps me.

So I want you to know that I do feel that sincerity in your posts.

Hopearoo