I am not sure I want to work at our business any longer after what happened with our daughter The place just bugs the crap out of me anymore and I am not happy being there anymore. I see such an invalidation and disrespect of me there everywhere I turn. These people WH attached himself to have all stemmed from this place, the old vet, the OW, and now the drunk. They have all hung out there on a regular basis and have on some level claimed the place as their own because of their attachment and affiliation with WH. In essence, WH has basically had 3 affairs (that I know of)and has used the business to facilitate his A's. WH's relationship with all 3 of these people were the same....all unhealthy, all EA's. He used them and they used him, but OW was more user friendly, if you get my drift (PA). Otherwise there is absolutely no difference between these 3 people! They all praise him, they all enable his addictions, and they were all "needy" in some way. I feel my IC is right on when he says that if the drunk were to disappear WH would just find someone else to take his place.
What is even more upsetting as I think about this is the fact that WH has moved in with the drunk (the ultimate in leaving the BS for the OP right). It's not so different is it wehn you think about it. And WH's life is parralleling this mans! He is seeing what this man's life is like (how free this man is to indulge in his addiction without anyone telling him he has to stop) and how this man got to be where he is (by leaving his family and choosing the drink over them) and seeing if that is what he wants. And he is doing this little experiment of his at the expense of me and the kids. I am to the point where I believe WH doesnt really care about us,a nd he probably hasnt for a long time. I just didnt want to believe that...he would give me crumbs of hope and keep me hanging in there...just for his selfish benefit. What I see now is that WH is more worried about how it will look to others if he doesnt have a family....he is only worried about himself and that's why he is so OK with the way things are right now. He still has his family and he still gets to do what he wants without answering to anyone or dealing with every day life. He is struggling with whether or not to let us go so he can be completely free or to keep us hanging around for "looks" so he looks good to others and appears to be a family man and pillar of the community. He has no empathy for me or even for our daughter! Like when I hit my head on purpose on the bed after d-day 1, because I was frustarted and he wouldnt talk to me. Afterwards when my head swlled up and I looked like the elephant man, WH said he had no feelings for me or concern for my well-being, that he was only worried about himself and how he thought others might think he did this to me...that he would get blamed. Those were his words! WOW! Talk about smacking myself in the head. That is the ultimate in Narcissism isnt it? When they say it's truly all about them, they're not kidding are they?
EDITED TO ADD:
I found out about several lies WH has told me, from way back when we first got married, we're talking 20 years ago here!. One of which put us in credit card debt for $10,000 to 15,000. And at that time we had NO money, and WH blamed this debt of me!!! He said it was all the things that I had bought for the wedding (which I bought my own dress in cash!) and for our apartment, which I figured should have only been around $5,000 so that leaves $10,000 unaccounted for. He said that it all added up and he was only making min. payments because that was all we could afford and it was all the ineterst...yada, yada, yada! I just found out TODAY that this was how WH paid for his bachelor party in Amsterdam! He put it on our credit card and blamed it ALL on me!!! He spent $10,000 in one week there. And they did not spend it at a fancy hotel or anything like that. They stayed in what amounted to a hostel and they used public transportation to get around. WH had told me that his cousin/bestman had paid for everything. What an f-ing lie! So what the f_ck did this man spend $10,000 on? I really feel upset about this. He has lied to me from day one about a lot of things that Im just now finding out about. I still think there were otehr women and I still think he spent some of that money on Hoe's in Amsterdam, and I know for a fact he spent some of it (if not most) on drugs while he was there. I feel like such an idiot! UGH!!!!!
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Feb 27, 2008 9:33 PM
What is NOT and never has been a lie, Cal, is the integrity, love, hard work, dedication, and devotion you put into your marriage. Just because your H kept his true self from you does NOT mean that YOU weren't a good wife. I just don't want you to feel any kind of guilt or blame that your marriage didn't work out and that you couldn't see the problems your H had before now. He didn't permit you to see that side of himself.
What I find truly disconcerting is the number of people, both past and present, who have contributed and encouraged your H to get to this point. This rang true for my H from the time before we were married to even now post-A. It is heartbreaking and frustrating.
I agree, it looks like the man you married, who put such a high value on a trip to Amsterdam because of it's reputation for easy sex and drugs, has pretty much the same values today. It's just very sad that you had to go through all of this pain and heartache to find this out.
Do you feel that the later issues that rekindled and deepened his relationship with drugs were as much of turning points that you previously thought, or were they more or less crisis points that uncovered his real desires and tendencies.
I know in my case, I see that the affair did two things. One was that it forced my wife to fall back on her fundamental ways of coping, and so revealed things that had been masked from be in the past. My wife wasn't as careful to keep those things hidden from me as she had been prior to that time. The other is that it made me more aware of her shortcomings as I came to idealize and rationalize less and less. I was able to see things that I knew all along, but had dismissed and redefined.
Of course, one danger for recovery is that a betrayed spouse can fall into the opposite kind of prejudice, where we demonize and presume the worst of our spouses. I'm not saying that you are, but only pointing out that as a danger.
For me, seeing things in our early relationship that should have allowed me to predict the later affair leads me to think that I was not a very good judge of character and even worse, that I was not being objective in looking at my wife. I'd guess that most of us do that in our relationships. I remember when my wife's sister was dating the man who she later married and divorced. Several of us felt there were some issues with him, but she was not willing to listen to any of that advice. My wife and I were sad at how the marriage turned out (he had many significant personal behavior issues) but we also felt a little pride in our character judgment. However, the truth of "love is blind" is more universal than any of us would like to admit.
Maybe this realization helps you to cement your conviction that the boundaries you're setting now are long overdue. They will hopefully lead to a change in your husband, but also I'd guess this helps to temper any expectations along those lines.
TomJ
This message has been edited by tomj76 on Feb 28, 2008 10:36 AM
You know Tom, as always you have some great points.
The thing about this particular lie is that I had that gut feeling about the trip at the time and even confronted WH back then, and now I feel validated. My WH said I was over-reacting, it was all in my head, I was jealous, and invalidated my gut feelings. I got a lot of invalidation from WH over the years. And then ontop of that, he told me our debt was my fault and that he got us out of it when he paid it off. You may say the past is the past but he brings this up even to this day, that if it werent for him we would be in debt because of me! He uses this as a constant example. Now I can let it go. I know I was not the cause of that debt. He cannot use this as a way of controlling me and guilt me into, as he puts it, not "spending HIS money". I am very frugal. I do not go out on wild spending sprees and I am very good at paying the bills and saving money. Although WH is great with the business, he spent a lot of money on drugs, OW, and even on the drunk man (beer, clothes, food, camping equiptment, and anything else he needs). He bought OW a new car, furniture, jewelry, gas, food, drugs, and even gave her cash! I have figured out this is why I never got that new house....all the money went towards buying things for OW that should have went towards a house for our family. So I do feel I am NOT demonizing him...I am just finally FREE from his manipulation and I have validation that my gut-o-meter was right on....even way back then!
<<The other is that it made me more aware of her shortcomings as I came to idealize and rationalize less and less. I was able to see things that I knew all along, but had dismissed and redefined.>>
EXACTLY!
Believe it or not, although it hurt he lied, I am relieved to now know the truth. The other thing here, if WH had changed I would have no problem writing this lie off as him being young and stupid, and say the past is the past but he has not changed! And now that I know this was all a lie, and he has been using it all these years to manipulate me I can see him even clearer.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Feb 28, 2008 8:53 PM
<<How and why did these facts come to light now? and why not until now?>>
It is a long story. But basically, WH's sister knew all along what the truth was but she apparently thought I knew how my Wh paid for the trip and it never came up between the two us. The reason it has come to light now is because my WH's cousin (sister of the bestman who supposidly paid for the trip) was talking about traveling with my sister in law a few days ago, about how expensive it as, and somehow ended up on the subject of the trip to Amsterdam and how her brother had paid for her brother (my WH) to go. That is when my SIL spoke up and said, her brother told her he charged it to his credit card. The cousin thought I might be surprised to know that my WH paid for the trip with his credit card and not her bro. because we have talked about the trip many times. Then I had one of those "oh my gawd he lied" moments! And not only did he lie but he blamed me for the debt.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
dear Cal - I had a therapy session just now and I realised again just how much of my life is based on repeated habits - In fact, I wonder if the main drive of therapy is to break habits! I recognised how my relationship with my wife is filled with may way of being and doing things. More particularly I can see hers too. I am changing as a person - I have changed. But, although, in her head she is recognising the mistakes she has made, I am simply not sure she has seen enough into herself to see how she can be in relationship without repeating her bad habits - Regretting being caught is not the same as understanding why and learning new ways to respond and work in relationship. I am now faced with seeing way back into the way our relationship has worked all along and how it has evolved and how I have changed. I am now faced with the question: "Would I choose this person again?" and the answer is No. Yet, here I am and I feel she is acting like a gravitational force pulling me back into the old habit of our relationship. She says "I have changed" and "I would never do that again". But she is missing the point as my lack of trust comes from the way she works every day in every way with me in our relationship. She never entered into our relationship with a truly committed open heart. I can see this now. And I don't trust her to be doing this now. This is my lack of trust - And this is one of the ways I have changed - I cannot enter back into a relationship where I don't trust her in being able to be different with me. WE have habits that seem to draw us back into being as we were. And as we were was and is simply not what I need.
As much as the realizations in your post are painful, it is a place we all most go eventually in order to heal, and make the decisions for the rest of our lives. You are beginning to hold your W accountable. The problem is she is not really doing the same deep down inside. In order to begin to trust we not only need to see that they get what they did was wrong, but that they have a sincere and overwhelming desire to find out why and ensure it never happens again.
((((CAL)))))
I am so sorry. I know these things hurt to the very core. I remember going over the marital history with out my reassuring, rose colored glasses, and it was not pleasant. Way long time ago, the day after giving birth to our first child, my husband didn’t show up for the special dinner the hospital gives new parents. It is no huge deal, but they provide a steak dinner in the room for each couple. We had ordered special. Well I sat there, watching the dinner get cold, holding my brand new son, crying. When H finally showed up, 3 hours late mind you, he was full of excuses and could not understand what the big deal was. The truth was, his buddies took him out for drinks after work, and while he did know about the dinner, his friends, more importantly drinking with friends, took precedence. I let it go, and let him wipe away my tears, but it was only the beginning of going out an partying with friends being more important than family. RED FLAG, I glossed over? YEP!
Keep in mind that one reason these things are red flags now is because of what transpired since the first happened. As Cal mentioned, they'd have a completely different context if they had not been precursors to a pattern that has evolved.
But, for me, the red flag behavior continued through out the marriage in this manner. I can't help but see the truth in, "you teach people how to treat you."
Cal,
I have been taking a little break from HH but had to respond to you. Wow, do I feel your pain and relate to so many of the feelngs:
-Shock at who the person we loved really was
-Shame at how stupid we were to believe the lies
-Shame that we had not seen the signs
-Feeling that our whole life was a lie and a very, very cruel joke
-And fury about all the above
My H lied to me and treated me badly before we got married, though not at any where near the same level as later on. On an early date, he kept me waiting in a bar for over an hour. Then, when we were living together,he went out with another woman. He lied about that and when I confronted him (after checking his diary), he said that he was just ending it with her. Why didn't I run in the opposite direction after the first evidence of his selfishness? Not only did I stay, but I continuted to believe in his integrity and nobility.
As our M went on, he became increasingly alcholic, cruel, reckless and irresponsible.He came and went as he pleased and made me feel like I was the lowest person on his list. To add insult to injury, he was verbally abusive -I did match him, insult for insult, but that was ineffective and impotent. How did I let him treat me like that? Again, why didn't I run from him? And, the kicker is that I continued to believe in his essential honor. Sure, he was alcoholic and mean, but he would never stoop to cheating! Ha!
And, like you, I feel like our whole M was a lie, a big fat hurful lie. My IC tells me that life, people and our relationship are much more complex than that, that he did love me "in his way, " and that he didn't leave and would have if he really wanted to. There is small comfort in that, though. He wasn't capable of doing the right thing any more than I was capable of running from a bad destructive relationship. Childhood damage had left its mark on both of us and his damage was compounded by bi-polarity and alcohol. I am not making excuses for him but merely acknowledging that we were both set up for the catastrophe that became our lives.
Last night, I went to a birthday party. It was for my H's friend from his former job. I knew a few of the people there through him though I would not have been invited on my own. These were work friends from when he was actively alcoholic and out drinking every night though none of the people there knew the depths that he had sunk to or were aware(as far as I know) of his infidelities.
H was on business trip this week. we had already RSVP'd yes so I decided to go by myself and actually had a great time. Anyway, the point of this story is that I met a lot of people there who said how happy they were to meet me, that H had talked about me all the time. I was in shock. I thought that during those years, I was nothing to him, that he barely wanted anyone to know he was married, that I would be the last person he would talk about and that when he left for work in the morning, he forgot I existed.
The truth is that he did care, in the only way that an addict can - deficiently and selfishly. That is no longer good enough for me and I am so glad that you have come to the same conclusion.
So wish we could go out for a cup of coffee but please know that my thoughts are with you and I am amazed at your strengh and conviction.
Susan, your post - and Cals too - speaks of extreme compartmentalization.
Compartmentalization exists in all our lives. It's what allows us to transition from one segment of life to the next without nervous breakdown. I cannot imagine kissing my wife goodbye or dropping off my kids each morning at school without the aide of a little compartmentalization. It is necessary - or at least helpful.
The problem is that in many cases - and this seems to be worse during the height of affairs or other addictive behaviors - we go along totally unaware of just how separate the different areas of our life have become. The different facets of our mind, our way of thinking, become so disjunct that they never meet, and we don't even realize it. It gets to the point of fragmentation, and then we shatter entirely. The problem is only compounded when we expect others to pick up the pieces instead of doing so ourselves.
This message has been edited by Dubld on Feb 29, 2008 2:38 PM
Yes, David - I have come to understand the meaning of the word "wholesome" so much better these days
Strangely I can also see how it is necessary to see the things I don't want to look at in my attempts to be more whole. It is the self deception that allows unwhole things to be accomodated isn't it.
may we all be safe and well, contented and happy .. and whole
I feel many of our situations are similar. I can so much relate to what Ami and Susan have said.
When we first got married things were wonderful. But life happens and things got increasingly worse as time went on. It wasnt always like this. I used to stand up for myself. I am not sure if it's "you teach people how to treat you" or more like you're a nice person who is being taken advantage of....who has been subjected to abuse and being a doormat is the result of the abuse. Yes, at some point you have to put your foot down and stop being a doormat and stick up for yourself, but it's not as easy as it sounds! We often wonder how did we get to doormat status in the first place? It didnt happen overnight. It was a gradual process...all the put downs, being the last on their list, and having your feelings constantly invalidated. Eventually you start to feel like something is wrong with you. Why are you not a priority to your spouse? What have I done to deserve being treated like this? I was loving, loyal, had sex with him whenever he wanted, gave birth to his children, stood beside him and helped him build a business, and let him be who he was, and gave him unconditional love. And I think to myself "after all these years...all that I put up with...all that I sacraficed, being cheated on is my reward". It just goes against everything I was taught as a child "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". I treated my WH with love, loyalty, and respect, and that is not what I received in return is it?
None of us deserves this pain...no matter what we did or did not do in the marriage. It is not anything we did. It is what is wrong isnide of them. No one deserves to be treated as if they have no feelings, or their feelings matter less than anothers...as if they as a person do not matter...as if they are disposable human beings. No matter what we put up with, or how we allowed ourselves to be used and abused...we did not ask for this....we did not ask to be betrayed.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Yes Cal we did not ask for this and we did not deserve it.
I am left wanting to say to you that it is not personal - Does this make sense - I know it sounds somehow ridiculous to say this but it is not personal in the sense that my wife did not do this to me, she did it because of her demons. It is also not personal in my case in that I only feel the devastation that every human feels in this situation - We all want to be loved, all of us - This is perhaps our most profound need - In this we are all together. I feel better thinking about it this way - And it leads to an understanding of just how some of the suffering comes from me insisting that it is this one person who can and should meet this need. I have found great comfort in the A recovery process to appreciate the love of so many around me - my children, friends and even just seeing something in others I come across in my daily life. These days I feel much more held by a wide network of other humans and this brings me some comfort.
After all this time I do know what you are saying. I know it was not personal. I do feel the love of others and the love I have for them, but somehow his love meant more to me, as I thought mine did to him , which is why a couple usually marries. Believing that your love is special between the two of you and for each other is why betrayal hurts so much when it is your spouse who betrays you. They were the "one" who vowed to always be there for you and love you, and then you findout they did not keep their vows.
Thank you for your post Jerry...wise, and loving as always
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
