H is out of the house staying with his Dad. He came over and we talked today. Got some of the gory details, that you know you need to ask about.
This time around H is a little different. He reached out to his brother for counsel, which is unusual. And to my amazement his brother's advice was do everything in your power to save your marriage. His brother is a divorced multiple offender,now married to last OW. So his advice was truly astounding. The fact that H reached out to anybody was quite surprising.
H imediately agreed to an NC letter, which I posted about.
The other thing different this time around was how hysterically he cried. He cried 10 times more just today than he has in the last 3 years. Has he hit rock bottom? Who knows. I on the other hand was fairly stone faced.
He claims he really, really wants to work it out. Last time, I guess, he only really wanted to work it out. This time its really really....... Am I too sarcastic?
Another small difference I noticed was on one or two questions, he seemed reluctant at first, but then answered without me having to argue about my right to know everything.
Other than that it was the same old, same old. Things I fell for 2.5 years ago.
Can you really rebuild after multiple d-days? I know a few have, but I'm not so sure. JJ if you read this I would really like some more advice from you, as I know you reconcilled after 3 d-days that were spread apart.
I agonize for your pain. I understand your grim reality all too well.
The time between D-day 1 and 2 was 9 months. Between #2 and 3 was just shy a year.
I sure wish I had great advice to give you, but I fear I don't. Each of our experiences are unique, as are each of our emotions, capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses.
For me, however, that 180 did the trick. Without even knowing a 180 list existed, I find that I did them. They came natural for me, but only after DD#3. I think after DD1, I was in denial and very naive. I hadn't found HH, yet. After DD2 I was in shock, saddened, wanted to kill myself...was looking for answers, and found HH.
DD#3 found a new me. I was strong and resolved. No bitter pill, no crying, no questions. Just simply, we're done. After 35 years of M, I had had it with his shenanigans. He (though now admittedly scared) went to live with OW for 10 days (of which they were only together 5...H took a trip to the South).
In those 10 days, I had the time of my life!!! I saw a lawyer and started D paperwork. Our D made the trip up from FL and we PARTIED!!! She made me a CD with uplifting, personal strength songs (Kind of 'take this man and shove it' songs. LOL) I went on two dates. I had started my new life!!
However, things for H weren't going so swell with OW. The rumors at work were rampant. People looked at him differently. He was shunned. OW cried. Her H cried to her all the time. Her adult kids cried. Her H called me and begged me to take H back. Ha! I said NO WAY! Give up this fun?
It pained my H to see I could move on so swiftly!
Then...he needed a place to stay and I agreed he could stay in one of our spare bedrooms. After three nights, I returned home from a date, and H wanted to talk to me. He broke down and begged for a new start and offered many concessions. After much discussion, I agreed to try...we worked on details. First was calling OW and ending it. Second was leaving work. (They worked together). Third was moving. Fourth was calling everyone we knew and apologizing for the pain he caused...including my family. (The A was publicly known.) There were other behaviors that needed altering, too...he conceded to everything.
How you, if you, work things out will be different. I wish you well with your travels, Lisa. Whatever your decision, it's not an easy row to hoe, and although it's been over a year for our new beginning, sometimes I do still struggle. But that's only due to "old" (dang Brain Trash!) stuff, nothing new. H is amazingly patient and remorseful, and even resilient. Our reconciliation has worked for us...so far. I take each day as it comes. That's all we have now, Lisa, isn't it?
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
You know, I didn't have multiple ddays, at least not exactly.
Let's see...
I was introduced to pornography as a preteen and was instantly "hooked". I brought porn use into my marriage, and confessed it to my wife on a couple of occasions, always saying I was done...but then I'd start back again....
I was heavily involved in online chatroom use, and I became overly close to one person in particular during that "phase".
I openly became emotionally involved with a young lady to the point that both my boss and wife intervened. I didn't think it was nearly as big of a deal as they made it out to be.
I went over to the house of a "good friend" one evening when my wife was out of town and sat there pouring out my heart to her, during a time when I was not very intimate or even connected with my wife. I told my wife about it, but only after I'd made a fool of her in front of this very same lady. This so severely affected my marriage that my wife and I only communicated in writing for a while after that, but we pretty much ended up "sweeping it under the rug" and moving on.
And then finally I had an emotional and physical affair that lasted about 3 months, with intermittent contact for several months after.
But not until quite some time after the affair did I really come to realize just how desperate my situation was, how depraved my condition was. The fog can take quite a while to lift -it's usually been around longer than the WS realizes, and it generally takes a pretty desperate situation before a WS is willing to do anything about it.
I don't know your husband, it's difficult to say whether he's truly changed, or if he's possibly just pretending, or even sincere yet not really equipped to move forward. But, to answer your question, I do think it's entirely possible to recover, even from where you are now. It's gonna take hard work and a unified approach from both of you. It's gonna take more than you can imagine, but it is possible, and from my viewpoint, it's worth it.
This message has been edited by Dubld on Mar 7, 2008 2:20 PM
Dday when I found a letter and he confessed to an EA (the next day, I moved out)
3 months later when I found out it was a PA and FAR move involved than what he first admitted (at this point we were still separated but it was supposed to have ended so he could "find himself")
2 months later when it was supposed to have ended again and she's leaving voice mails at our home number (we were still separated, but I was in the house to take care of the cat)
6 months later when I find emails and her phone number after we have reconciled and I've moved back home and we are on a weekend trip (that was tough!)
4 months later when OW's other boyfriend blows the lid and comes to our house when H isn't home because he wants H out of the picture - later that same day I meet OW and find out the past 15 months were mostly.... lies.
--
So we rebuilt and recovered, but only after I went stone cold and detatched and felt nothing for him for months while I watched him scramble and go to IC and change his life and change his attitudes and outlooks and priorities. I watched and waited and believed nothing...and I watched
eventually we met back up in the middle somewhere, but it wasn't easy. I had to swallow alot of pride.
It's a trickly decision
Pride vs. that long term marriage that can survive the storm...
Pride vs. 20 years of good history...
At this point, any path is a rocky one...
Personally, I have always found the ongoing lies after dday to be worse and harder to accept and forgive than the A itself.
-Susan
This message has been edited by stillkickin on Mar 7, 2008 11:51 PM
<<Personally, I have always found the ongoing lies after dday to be worse and harder to accept and forgive than the A itself.>>
I am with Susan on this one. The more they break their promises or lie after they have claimed "I will do whatever it takes" and then they dont...it is like WOW, you feel sucker-punched...how can I ever believe them now? With every new betrayal it becomes harder and harder to even begin to be willing to trust...something they just dont seem to get. They think the same old lines will work...the same "heart-felt" speech...but THIS TIME they really mean it....right? Well, as Daivid has said, remember the chinese farmer? It is too soon to tell. But also as many here on the board have said to me "How many chances does he get"? Hard to figure that one out isnt it? Do you give them anotehr chance and wait and see...or do you walk way, enough is enough? For each the answer will obviously be different. All that matters is that you take care of YOU.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
I can sit here and give you advice or say this or that or give my opinion but you and only you will know when you are done, truely done. It will be like a desperate race you have to run. You will know there are no second chances, you will not have doubts, it will just be... So if you are feeling even a little bit of wanting to work it out then I say you are still maybe not done my dearie, I had to dump my bucket out. I had to make sure I was empty and really done it took me a long time but I am glad. I hope and wish in my heart that he comes thru for you and your precious family. Follow these wonderful people's advice; we all care for you here.
Like JJ I went through three D-days, second one year after the first and third two years after that, about 6 months ago now. Between the first and second there were hot and steamy e-mails and phone calls but no sex, just one meeting I didn't know about. Between the second and third there were phone calls, a few e-mails and one meeting for sex. After the first D-day I knew H wasn't really committed to me, and I was in that pathetic stage where you are so shocked and numb, and still blaming myself, so I didn't set good boundaries. After the second he sent a letter which was far from the ideal no contact letter, and said I know I should be less affectionate, I know you won't like what I have written, but I just can't bring myself to hurt her. Big red flag, but at the time I was still to some extent blaming myself, seeing her as his dream woman, feeling that he was only staying with me because of the family etc etc, you know the thing. So I let him get away with the long, indulgent "it's got to end" letter. I truly believed he had got past the A, and even posted here about how different this time was from the previous; that this time he was truly remorseful, understood the enormity of what he had done, was doing everything to make it OK for me. Ha! He was doing just enough (and sometimes I did sense that, but just couldn't believe he was cheating again) but still clinging on to his crutch, the OW.
To me the third wasn't much different from the second. I didn't kick him out; he initially chose to leave, because he didn't think I would ever forgive him, but I needed to talk to him and find out exactly what had gone on. This time he told the children. He also phoned OW immediately in my presence and told her he didn't want to see her or hear from her again (except of course for the professional connection which unfortunately is still continuing). Maybe he didn't say it the way I would have liked, but he did it voluntarily and in my presence, and with total conviction which was lacking before. I think he was actually quite angry with OW. He moved to the spare room while we tried to sort out our future. He was doing all the same things and it was very hard (still is) for me to believe that this time was any different from the previous one. He says it is very different and I am aware that he is much less defensive and will answer any question, has told me a lot that I didn't know because there is no point in lying to me now, really does seem to want to reconcile and rebuild. And like your H, he cried. All the time. He said himself that in the past he had wished he could cry but never could and this time he couldn't stop. I think that was the recognition of just what he had done to me, to our marriage and to himself.
Sometimes I don't feel that I had any choice, even the third time. Although I had said I would not tolerate a third D-day, that having any contact with OW was saying that he wanted a divorce, I still let him stay, to try to earn my forgiveness and acceptance. I thought I was stong enough to walk away but I couldn't give up on nearly 30 years of marriage because OW was so manipulative and he was so weak (he just wanted her to let him go in a way that didn't make him feel bad LOL!). So we just really stayed together by default, because neither of us made the decision to leave.
And six months on I still have bad moments. He has had to be in contact with OW recently because of work, and he didn't do it in a way that I wanted; left open the possibility of a professional dialogue when he could have closed that off; accepted a phone call through the switchboard when he could have said he was busy and asked her to e-mail, or call again when I could be in the room. I still just can't trust him, and whenever he seems to have misled me about where he is (usually because he is so vague, he probably doesn't know himself, but then that's how he got away with the A) it triggers me big time. The big difference is that now I tell him what he has done and why it is so bad for me and he listens, explains his own thinking, considers what I am saying and acknowledges my right to be concerned. I think that's progress; I'm still not 100% sure I want to be here with him, but so far he hasn't done anything which would make me leave.
I think if you look back to posts in mid-August 2007 you will find the whole sorry saga (and two years before that for D-day #2). I don't really have any advice, just letting you know my story, and wanting to say that sometimes multiple d-days are necessary to truly bring the WS out of the fog. They do have to hit rock bottom, but it's hard to know what that is. For my H it was driving around our town with all his possessions in three suitcases in the back of the car, trying to bring himself to check into a hotel because he thought I would never want to be with him again after what he had done, and realising that the only thing he wanted was to be with me. I really hope that this is it for your H (as I hope the same for mine!)
