Hear that sound?
You know, the sound when the water is going down the drain…the sound that the water makes just at the end of the tub draining? I heard it last night, somewhere around midnight when H and I were up late talking about our life and marriage…I heard it…our marital life spiraling down the drain.
It isn’t always a distinct sound. Sometimes it’s simply in the background, a noise you hear as you are living your lives together. Last night it wasn’t just that distant sound – it was right next to me, in both of my ears. It isn’t a sound that I wanted to hear – but I think we both heard it.
I was honest with him, that while I don’t like feeling this way, that more than I care to – my thoughts are veering more towards ending the marriage. I simply cannot (or will not) get past the affair. I am tired of living our marital life in simple ‘existence’. I realize that I am no longer working in the marriage, I don’t try anywhere near as I used to. I told him last night that I am putting forth probably a 60% effort. I felt he should know where I am in this. He’s hurt. He’s sad. He’s discouraged. His disappointed in what he did.
There was a lot said last night – from both of us.
Good and bad.
We can still joke and laugh.
We love our kids.
But can we reconnect with each other?
Why is it that he has the A, but I’m the one that has to do all the work? Why is he suggesting that I go back to IC to help us? I’m sure I need it – but how is this at all fair? He’s fine with things. He can walk around that carpet that has everything shoved under it and many times not think about it. I see that pile of ‘stuff’. I see the pain, hurt, sadness, trust, safety…all of it is under that rug.
I cannot become vulnerable to him. He knows this.
I don’t have those safety measures in our marriage anymore. We’ve had some close calls/issues in the past and we both felt secure knowing that we could pull the ‘I see something happening’. That card was pulled by me several times. He denied and lied and the card was gone. It’s been ripped up and burned. That card can no longer exist. How do I feel safe again? What does he do to accomplish that safety; to gain that level of trust?
We’re both saddened from that conversation last night. Neither one of us slept well. Neither one of us could look the other one firmly in the eye.
It’s close to the end.
I’m not quitting the marriage yet. He said last night that if it was to end it would be my decision. He refuses to end it. He would be sad and hurt, but he also knows that if I do end it he realizes that he is the cause of it; the wrong decisions, the lies, the mistrust, the immense amount of hurt and pain that he caused me.
I can still hear the sound. Someone needs to go plug that drain. Is that my job, or his?
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
This message has been edited by deedeemommy on Mar 14, 2008 3:59 PM
Hi Denise.
Good to see you posting. It does sound like you had a really important conversation late night, one that has been brewing in you for a long time. As difficult and painful as the conversation was, I hope you feel good that you expressed your feelings honestly.
It is just really hard for me to understand how your H can say how much he wants the M and not be willing to do the things you need him to. Now that you seem serious about the possibility of moving on without him, do you think he would consider MC and/or IC?
I guess you have to ask yourself if there is anything he can do that would make you willing to work on the M? If there are, maybe ask him one more time. Given last night's conversation, he may recognize that he needs to do SOMETHING. If there is nothing he can do to change your mind, make you want to work on the M. ......I hear that sound too.
I am sorry for your pain and sadness. As happy as I am that you have put your feelings on the table, there is nothing even remotely good about A's and dealing with their aftermath.
It hurts when we outright tell the one who has hurt us what we need and they just dont do it. If they wanted the marriage bad enough they would get off their a$$ and do something before it's too late. If they need help...they should ask how to get it or seek it. Instead they sit and so nothing. Little by little, the water seeps down the drain, until the last drop just gets sucked up. You need to see him do something. You have said this over and over again to him and still nothing. What will it take? I wish I had the answer. But seeing your marriage sucked down the drain because he is unwilling/unable to get up and do something is miserable...I know. Im sorry you are hurting.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Thanks for the quick response!
It isn't as if he won't do anything. He will do something-if I tell him what to do.
I don't know what he needs to do. Living 'life as normal' is not working. We've been doing that for a long time and is simply is not the way we are going survive.
While I know that he is willing to do the work, what is it I want him to do?
He'll go to MC, he made that clear. He'll help me with whatever I need.
I wanted him to do things several years ago after the last d-day and he followed through on one of them fully. I can't ask for those things again, it was made clear to me that he won't do the others.
So, here I sit.
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
Wow, Denise, this is really well-written and so...poignant. I think a lot of us have either been there, or are currently struggling with the same sorts of things.
A couple of comments:
"Why is it that he has the A, but I'm the one that has to do all the work?" You don't. And you shouldn't. We each certainly all have our share, and I think too much falls on the shoulders of the BS, but if he really wants the marriage, he has work to do.
"Why is he suggesting that I go back to IC to help us?" I'd go to what El says on this, I guess. There's your healing, his healing and the healing of the M. I think it is a good suggestion. But I would also hope that he sees that he should be in IC, as well. If each of you can heal and work through what's happened, you'll have more to give each other. Alternatively, if the M fails, you'll be better psychologically equipped to handle that.
"...how is this at all fair?" Its not. It sucks. I hate it. But I have yet to find a part of infidelity recovery that feels "fair".
"He's fine with things." I have trouble with this thought, because if he understands how much excruciating pain/discomfort/etc that you're in, how can he feel "fine"? He should be trying to find some way to help rectify the damage he caused.
"How do I feel safe again?" I struggle with the safety thing myself. Maybe "safety" is an illusion that really doesn't exist, but I haven't come to terms with that, and its an uncomfortable way to live...to say the least. I'm not ready to say that true safety is something only I can give myself. In the framework of marriage, it feels like there should be some measure of "safety".
In regard to the plugging of the drain: "Is that my job or his?" Its both. The notion of a marriage being not 50/50, but 100/100 doesn't mean each partner is always at a point where they can give their 100, but there should be the attempt to do that. It should be ok for a partner that is hurting to not be able to give their normal amount and the other partner takes up the slack until the injured party can jump back in. But the M can't survive and certainly can't thrive unless you both are willing to do whatever it takes to plug the drain. If H would really be sad and hurt for the M to end, why isn't he motivated to plug the drain with you?
Denise, your post is really clearly stated. Is it something you can print out and share with him? ((((((((((Denise)))))))))
BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
If he is willing to go to MC why not go? Address his not doing what you needed back then and how it has hurt your willingness to try with the MC. MC may help you to decide to try harder, or even help you determine to not try any longer. Living in this limbo-like state is not helping anything, for either of you.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Hear that sound?
You know, the sound when the water is going down the drain…the sound that the water makes just at the end of the tub draining?
I love it...for a guy who likes to use imagery to get a point across this one is the best I have ever heard!!!
I would think that saying that to your H would make him see how close it is to the tub being empty!!! Might want to add.. "after its empty, I am going to give it a good scrubbing and you will never leave another bathtub ring in it again..."
I do so love the way you wrote your post Denise. Brilliant. But I know you are hurting and I am sorry for that. You deserve happiness Denise. You are smart, strong, beautiful, and sweet.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
My DSL has been down since Monday morning and is just now back up, so I have missed tons! I am so sorry you are hurting so much. I know what you really want is for your H to give you a reason to stay committed to your marriage, and he isn't doing so.
I agree that going to MC and stating what you asked your H to do before and he refused to do sounds like an excellent action because the right MC will talk through what is and isn't reasonable and question your H as to why he wasn't/isn't willing to do what you asked him to do. I can't help thinking that if your H REALLY wanted you and your marriage he would move heaven and earth to meet reasonable needs.
Sometimes what we want them to do doesn't seem so reasonable once a MC has heard our request and discussed it with us. For example, I was very angry and hurt that my H would not write a NC letter to OW. Our MC helped me see that because the A ended 1 1/2 years before Dday #2 and H had not had any contact with her since that day, his writing a NC letter would only open up the possibity of new contact with OW, give her a false sense of importance to H, and give her a sense of power that I certainly did NOT want to give her. Furthermore, I came to see after reading one of Peggy Vaughan's answers to a Question of the Week that OW believed what she chose to believe, and if she wanted to keep fallacious beliefs, she would no matter what H or anyone else told her. (This goes right back to the idea that we can not control anyone else.) Thus, I have been able to let go of any lingering anger or resentment over this issue.
We continue getting MC and IC because we both realize that we want our marriage and ourselves to be the best possible. We weren't able to achieve that goal on our own over a 50+ year period, so it was more than time to get outside help. Ditto for your H. He hasn't been able to do on his own what would make him the best man he can be with the best marriage he can have, so it is more than time for him to get off his duff, admit his role in his own failings, stop playing the martyr ("If the marriage ends, it will be because of Denise and not me." BS! If it ends, it will be because you are too tired of trying to resuscite your marriage on your own!)
Anyway, I am so sorry you are hurting, sweetie. If you need to meet, just let me know.
I know that being vulnerable is hard for you because you have been so hurt..letting go is a leap of faith...trusting that your H will catch you is your question ..you don't trust. .. based on your past experience
Present experience-NOW.. Dee what is your H doing right? list the positives ..list the negatives..forget the A.. has he changed..less controling.. praises you .. makes you feel on top of the world..
Are you open .. really open..my MC keeps telling me I need to say what I think, my H isn't a mind reader... and to never assume how my H feels or will react Pick your time and ask away.. timing is important.
Denise just know that we are here for you..I know how hard this time is for you..
Sending you lots of blessings,
(((hugs)))
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
It certainly isn't fair that his affair has brought pain, hardship, and personal struggle in your life, no more than it is fair for any of us. There is so much that isn't fair in all this, but there is also very little we can do to change the fairness of it all. That is something that will simply have to wait.
I want to put those feelings into some perspective. I want to challenge you to rise above them. What I'm going to say could come off as preachy or that I'm being insensitive to what you're going through right now. But rather, I think I understand a lot of what you're feeing because what you've described is something I've felt too.
There are lots of situations in life that occur and they are simply not fair. It's not fair that some people are born with great intellects into good families that raise them right while there are others who are born with physical and mental challenges, or into families where the parents are absent, ineffective, or even destructive to their kids. Some people are victims of horrible crimes or accidents that leaves them debilitated. Others are victims of devastating illnesses. But despite all that unfairness and injustice, we still try our hardest to rise above our circumstances and to reach our potential. God knows there is so much more that is in store for us if we just would give our best efforts and not grow weary.
I think a lot of times people are able to survive in these bad situations because they are not willing to walk away from them. They face them and take them head on. They persist day after day. When days come that aren't good, they take them and accept them and move forward trying for a better one tomorrow.
People that reconcile their marriage do so despite the failings of their spouse in the recovery process. No wayward spouse, remorseful or not can do enough to earn forgiveness, to earn a chance at reconciliation. Those are things that have to be given out of love.
In my own struggles, I can tell you that giving forgiveness and working on our marriage after the affair is a huge act of humility and submission. I have to take my pride and push it so far away that it left me feeling weak and spineless at times. That said, I also expected similar humility and submission from my wife... not submission to me, but submission to the obligations we have to each other, to our kids, to our parents, to our community, and to our God.
I don't know if your situation is one that is irreconcilable, but I would recommend that if the inability to reconcile is coming from you, that you work hard to make yourself NOT the reason that it can't be reconciled, because that's something that you can carry with you always.
I too heard that sound.. like the end of the drain was coming. My wife and I had a very, very emotional talk about it. A lot of the problems that we allowing the tub to continue draining were coming from her, primarily issue with true honesty. After that talk she addressed that by finding a new counselor, one who she worked on not for the affair, but for her dishonesty. I think it was best counseling she received. However, I also have needed to work on being more vulnerable as she has become more trustworthy. It's not a fast thing because it depends on both of us working together.
((((((((((Denise)))))))))))) daughter, I have been thinking and thinking and felt what Tom wrote, only I did not have the words to express it.
For me the key is that your H has done nothing to earn your love or forgiveness. From the begining you worked hard as he whatever...
It helped me a lot in the begining ( which pathetically IS where you are at in healing the marraige because of his lack of effort, and your feeling beaten down) well what helped me was to make a list.
I wrote all of the things I needed from him. It was his choice to do all or nothing. Since your H has so far done very little, isn't it time to tell him in writing what he needs IF he wants this marraige. I know you tried some sort of separation where he lived elsewhere and you got all the responsibilities and he got room service. But just like you worked damn hard to earn your degree, work just as hard to figure out what you really need to stay in this marraige. As motivation dear Denise, think about what life without your H would be like. Would it be better for you, if so how? Think about what is truly best for you, and then think of what he can do for one real chance. Be clear in what you need and want and don't settle for less. Then read Tom's wisdom again for true understanding.
Tom I hate that we are here, but when I read what you and my other cherished friends here have written to help me in my healing I only know I have been truly blessed. There are friends on this board who truly understand what love is all about, and share their wisdom and amazing heart with each of us. We are truly lucky to have such a family here.
Denise, you are such an incredible woman, you deserve only the best. Give your H that list. Are you still in counseling? With or without him YOU have to heal Denise. I love you girl.
I am in tears as I read all of these wonderful posts from a group of people that as El said, I cherish.
Tom - you are totally correct, there are so many situations in life that are not fair and I have seen a lot of people in my life who face them and take them head on. A great friend of mine began the breast cancer fight 2 years ago - she faced it head on, made it through chemo and radiation and is cancer free - only to be facing a divorce this year. She actually says that she believes she was given cancer in order to deal with this awful divorce! Amazing. Don't get me wrong, she has her days of sorrow, but overall she continues to simply push forward.
<<People that reconcile their marriage do so despite the failings of their spouse in the recovery process. No wayward spouse, remorseful or not can do enough to earn forgiveness, to earn a chance at reconciliation. Those are things that have to be given out of love.>>
Wow - that is truly something to remember. I can see that. Reconciliation can be made despite their failings and we as BS' know that there truly isn't a way that a wayward spouse can do enough to earn a chance at forgiveness, that is truly something given out of love.
Therein lies a big issue in me.
Love.
I feel love for him, but now I'm going to say a line that I've heard that hurts,
I love him but I'm not in love with him.
He is a wonderful father and I see in him the man that I fell in love with - is it because I am not willing to take that "leap of faith" as Pat said? The fear of being vulnerable and opening myself to love him deeply again is present and at times I feel that I can do it - but the fear takes over and I can feel my heart close up.
Pat, he praises me, he tells me often that he loves me, I'm beautiful all of that. That is something that is consistent and hasn't changed.
El, my other cyber mom , lists. You and Kimmie have pressed me to make lists for a while. You'd think I'd listen by now! I do try to see how my life would be without him, an it is sad. He is my best friend, the person I normally call first when something good or bad happens. I would miss that - I would miss the day to day parenting that we do together. I would miss a lot. Would I be happier - I have no idea!! UGh!!
Okay, I will try to start making lists..positives and negatives.
Again, all of you are wonderful people. And Dave, I LOVE THE PICTURE!!
Hugs to all of you!
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
Ahhh my dear cyber sister.....sigh! Get on those lists girl <just kidding>
"I feel love for him, but now I'm going to say a line that I've heard that hurts,
I love him but I'm not in love with him."
I believe that the reason for saying this by the WS lies in the fact that they aren't emotionally invested in or connected to the marriage, not that that is how they truly feel. It is the loss of the spark, the "hootzpaa" in a relationship.
My counsellor spent alot of time explaining how we could begin reconnecting and getting that spark back and most of the ideas began with going backwards to when we first dated.
Realize that what you are missing may not be true love Dee, but lust.
You make a great analogy, however the one thing you missed is that a draining bathtub only drains because somebody pulled the plug. Even while it is draining you can always stop it by putting the plug back in. It still makes that sucking noise......
You have the power to heal you Dee, regardless of the marriage. Sadly I think you have spent so much time concentrating on the marriage, that Dee hasn't had a chance to really figure out where Dee needs to be.
Make those lists......go back to posts from several years ago, or journal entries you've made......sometimes to see where we need to go we need to figure out where we've been and try something different.
Hugs my sista!!! You know I love you
Kid
edited to add:
I am right with you on the life isn't fair bus. For me it goes back to the 'do I want to be bitter or better'. I've been as low as a person can go and I never want to be there again. For me it seems a clear cut choice, but one I had to make for me, but it was a choice.
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Mar 15, 2008 7:07 PM
Denise,
I can understand how the years and the number of D Days has made you cautious and a little closed off. Who wouldn't be? It seems very rational that you would be guarded in that situation.
But, I also hear a lot of good things about your M in what you wrote, things that many couples married for a long time to have - love, respect for parenting style, appreciation for who you are both emotionally and physically. When I hear that I wonder if there is still hope for a M that is fulfilling for you.
But as you know, it will take work and your H has to be willing to work. I found that, even in some of my angriest times, I still had to be kind and compassionate in order to get my H to participate....and he had to recognize what he had to lose before he did.
As my IC once said to me, "you have quite a dilemma - hating the man you love." It was clear that eventually I had to take a stand and follow a path. Following love seemed better than following anger and hatred. I just wish that the 2 of you could go to MC with an open heart and the same goal.
I feel for your dilemma and have been there. But we need to keep moving forward - even if that forward if just about ourselves. Standing still is wasting who we are. And, as many have said, you are smart, strong, beautiful with a lot to give and, like human being, a need to receive. I hope that your H can understand that before you give up hope.
And, I am not sure that, after many years, there are many people that are "in love," which I think is the early stage of a relationship when the act of loving is beginning. Love is more serene, more consistent, more reliable. Is that what you want?
I am glad to see you posting again as I haven't been to chat a lot and miss our talks.
I wish I had some solid advice for you, but like you, I wear that suit of armor. Eventhough, you have more time and more DDays under your belt, I feel your pain, and struggles of making that decision. My heart goes out to you, and I know you will do whats best for you and your family...
A wise woman once told me....."Do not let him Manipulate you anymore".....these words have been embeded in my brain ever since.
So many wonderful responses, and other posts bouncing from this one - I'm so glad to see it.
My H and I have been married for over 18 yrs. We experienced that 'ebb and flow' in the love department during those first 14 years and understood that it was a normal part of marriage. Then, the A hit. And I can vividly remember him telling our pastor one Sunday morning that we were in that 'flow' of being in love with each other; him clinging to my hand. Less than a week later maybe, I confronted him about the A.
Perhaps after being emotionally injured so much, that I am now in a perpetual ebb. I know that he is most likey (I don't want to speak for him) living in a 'fake it til you make it' mode. In looking back at old posts, this is the norm for him. So, if he's in 'fake it to you make it' and I'm in an ebb then we are existing. As a couple, we know this. We've known this for a while.
Kim - you are right. I am hearing that 'sound' because someone has pulled the plug. Me? Him? Me. Yes, most likely me.
It's the 'getting over it' stuff that I'm having issue with. I can't seem to move past a lot of the things that happened. I don't discuss the triggers - I don't discuss the bad days of deep sadness. I have the number out to call insurance for approval for IC. No matter what, whether I stay or go, I must heal myself. I must get to a point where I have moved past the pain.
I read this in a book today, the author said her friend found it in a fortune cookie it said this:
“Fear is interest paid on a debt you may not owe”
Denise
"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"
I don't check in very often, but did today and read your post. I immediately thought about several friends who tell me that their house is a mess and how their husbands ask "What can I do?" To us, it's obvious! Grab the vacuum, the mop, the toilet bowl brush and get moving! Yet, some people just don't see it. (please note I did NOT say Husbands don't get it, but people in general ) It needs to be in black & white.
I have read and have often thought myself, what can anyone possibly do to make this up to another? What possible task or action can take place to fix something that has hurt another to their core? Nothing. So...if your husband is asking what he can do, that is a step. It may have taken him awhile to get to that point, but you'll never get what you want from him unless you ask. And sometimes you really have to spell that out for them.
My H is also one of those who loves me, but is not 'in love'. I attribute that to the wall that is built up around his heart. Do I feel that he loves me? Sometimes. But it does leave him out there for more pain if he allows himself to truly open up. Our pastor has said that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Think of how much better you may feel if you would be able to let go a little. Just like peeling off your bulky coat after a long, long winter season!
Me and my h are dealing sadly with the same problems as everyone on here. Healing has been very slow. Last night I came acroos an ebook that was written by an injured spouse just for betrayers to read. My husband is willing to do anything that will help me heal he is so remorseful and sorry for what hes done. Our communication is open again but we both know something is missing for me to heal and I feel theres alot missing as far as what he can do to help me and me to help myself.
He read the first 2 chapters in this book this morning before I got up out of bed and told me it is not munipulative and has made him understand alot of things he is doing wrong so far.
I could see a differece in his attitude and more compassion in him he even tried to engage me in converstation about my feelings.
look at www.aftertheaffair.net and see if you think it is for you.
I cant say for sure how good it is but just a small read and 2 hrs with my h today and I could see the difference.
I would like for people that do get this book to email me and let me know if it made a difference as I see one here already just hope it keeps up.
, lists. You and Kimmie have pressed me to make lists for a while. You'd think I'd listen by now! I do try to see how my life would be without him, an it is sad. He is my best friend, the person I normally call first when something good or bad happens. I would miss that - I would miss the day to day parenting that we do together. I would miss a lot. Would I be happier - I have no idea!! UGh!!
