H & I finally TRIED to talk this past Friday after not speaking for 3 weeks, which was right after another d-day.

He starts out by telling me about a book he is reading, His Needs, Her Needs. He said I should read it after him. I told him I didn’t feel I wanted to read a book like that at this time. He gets annoyed and says I don’t even know what the books is about and he thinks I don’t want to read it because it is a book that his brother gave him. His brother had a couple of affairs on his first wife and then married the last OW. But that is not the reason I don’t want to read the book. I am annoyed that for the years I was trying to reconcile H would always say he would read the books I was reading on affair recovery and then wouldn’t. He then came over a few days after d-day and said he was going to take the book “How can I Forgive You” and read it and he didn’t read it, he started reading the book his brother gave him a few days later. I am also not at the point where I want to even think of H’s needs, maybe that is selfish, but I am still in shock over another d-day 2.5 years after the last one. I am not even at a point where I am thinking of committing to the marriage, let alone worrying about his needs!

He is still so deep in the fog. I thought he had shown real remorse when we talked right after d-day. But now he is saying that it is partly my fault that he reconnected with OW after a year’s time, because I harassed her with phone calls and told her H 2 months after d-day. That was 10-11 months before he reconnected with her.

He also is saying that he knows his selfishness and character played a part in him having an affair but the problems in our marriage played a bigger part. He is even saying things like he was trying to reconcile the marriage, even in the 1.5 years he was having a phone/e-mail affair with her. I don’t know if he thinks he can say that because they were not physically together during the 2nd part of the affair (that was only because she moved 3,000 miles away!). I told him he can’t say he was working on the marriage while he was telling someone else that he loved her.

I am ashamed to say I went off the deep end. I was full of rage at that point. I verbally lashed out at him in front of the kids. I walked away from him and he went outside to get in the car and I ran after him and I actually spit on him. I’m not sorry for him in anyway. I am ashamed that I let myself be brought down to that level and let my kids see me hitting rock bottom again. Like after the first d-day.

Now were playing e-mail tag, going over what occurred on Friday.

I’ve been trying to keep myself busy which is helping. I’m not in a good place today. I had plans to do some shopping with my sister and she had to cancel at the last minute due to my niece getting sick. I had a bit of an anxiety attack when I got off the phone with her and have been doing nothing for the rest of the day. Once the kids get home it will feel better.

((((((((((((Lisa))))))))))))

Do not beat yourself up for arguing in front of the kids. It happens! But you are right. He is still in a fog. I cannot believe he blames you for his contact with OW, no wonder you're enraged. Just like WH blames me for his current A, cause I wouldnt put out one time! And every marriage has it's problems...you work them out, not use them as an excuse to cheat.

The book "His Needs Her Needs" is not A related, but relationship related. That book is for another time, not now in the midst of all of this. And my WH has done the same with books. "Not Just friends" sat around the buiness for a year after he promised to read it. I sat there day after day watching him read books on politics and religion, while the book I gave him just sat there. After he left this last time I gave him the book again. He said he has read about 1/2 in the last 4 months. But in the meantime he read another book cover to cover. They don't seem to get how important this is...to keep your word and read the book <sigh>.

I am sorry you are going through this too. It sucks. But Im glad you're trying to keep busy and you have the kids.


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Dear Lisa,

I'm sorry its such a crappy day and that the rage came out and got the better of you. Don't be too hard on yourself; you have ample reason to be angry, hurt and disappointed. It is unfortunate that the kids were right there and saw everything; what's important is what you do to explain to them what happened with your anger - what was wrong about it and what was right, so that they don't get bad lessons about what to do with their own anger. As parents, we can't show our kids how to act perfectly because we're only human and are going to goof up in front of them. But they definitely need to see how we own up to our own mistakes and how we take those mistakes, learn from them, and improve ourselves.

It definitely sounds like your H is still in the fog. And after going online and searching on this book, I agree with Cal - this probably isn't the best book at this time (it seems to have that rampant misconception that affairs happen when one isn't getting needs met by one's partner).

However, - tiny 2x4 warning - As justified as you are to have all the feelings you're having, you kind of sink to H's level in not saying you'd look the book over...or you appreciate that he's started to read something to better the marriage. It feels a bit like a little kid's reaction to hear you say, "you didn't do it when I wanted you to, so I'm not gonna either." There's also nothing wrong with just saying, "hmmmm. I'm willing to look at this, but I'm frustrated that when I asked you to read some of my books, you didn't do that. How does this seem right or fair to you? While I'm looking this book over, are you willing at the same time to read a book that I'm recommending to you?"

Rage has certainly gotten the better of me...more times than I'm comfortable admitting. And during those times, I shut down and out most of what H tries to say to me. But that doesn't get me anywhere. It doesn't get our marriage anywhere. And it just pushes H that much further away.

I'm sorry to put that thought out there; today you need more hugs than "would-a, could-a, should-a's", and more than anything, that's what I want to send your way: big hugs. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

<<probably isn't the best book at this time (it seems to have that rampant misconception that affairs happen when one isn't getting needs met by one's partner).>>

I read this book several years ago, after we'd read a lot of A recovery books. We DID have major problems with communication which trickled over into not meeting each other's needs. That's not justification for me having the A's, please don't misread me. But there are marriages (ours being one of them) that are vulnerable to affairs because the spouses aren't aware of their partner's needs, and hence don't know how to meet them. I chose to cheat when I wasn't happy in the M, H chose not to...so again, not an excuse because plenty of people are unhappy in their marriages and DON'T cheat.

I loved your post Blue, but on this particular bit quoted above I have a different opinion, based on my own personal experiences. However, I COMPLETELY agree with you saying it's NOT the best book at this time. As much as Lisa's H is obviously still in the fog, I think it's a positive thing that he's reading any marital books at all. It's just pretty disappointing that he's trying to jump ahead several steps in the recovery process to skip past his own faults that allowed him to be unfaithful in the first place.

Sun

That's just it...someone who has an addiction and doesnt do anything about it needs to address those issues first. There is no way that someone who has addictions that are not under control (or in recovery as they say) are capable of meeting the needs of their spouse. Not to mention that addicts are VERY selfish by the very nature of the disease. When someone has an addiction the addiction is their primary need and it doesnt matter how hard the non-addicted spouse tries to meet their needs, they simply cannot be met....it is impossible. The addcition is what they are commited to, not the spouse or the marriage. My IC has drilled this into my head! Needs cannot be meet if both spouses are not healthy and capable, cause as well all know it takes two...and one isnt there and 100% commited to the marriage if they are actively in an addiction....because cant be....they are incapable.

Addiction plays such a huge role in many divorces. I was reading a survey done by 100 divorce lawyers on AOL, and it stated that 1/3 of all divorces are due to an addiction of some type. The quote was "whatever the addiction, the effects are the same. If left untreated the addiction can destroy the marriage." Another quote was "while many of their clients blamed infidelity, infidelity itself was not the "cause" of divorce. Stated another way, divorce lawyers rarely see marriages that are otherwise healthy and happy but for the infidelity." And on another board, one man said "that in the end it wasn't infidelity that ended the marriage, it was his WW's lack of remorse and her unwillingness to change that ended the marriage."

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Sun - I very much agree with you on this; I think you just laid it out there more clearly and connected the dots better.

My H and I, from the outside looking in, had a picture perfect marriage. But we'd figured out ways to never confront whatever issues arose. We never fought, but that didn't mean there weren't things that needed addressing. We both just hated confrontation so much that a lot got left unsaid. So were needs not being met? Yes, but as you say, that's not the critical factor that leads to affairs.

It is sad that Lisa's H is perhaps looking at this book as a way of excusing his choices because his needs weren't being met, when it would be more productive for him to look at himself as to why he made bad choices. In our situation, I think that H had to look in the wrong places first, while I tried to gently (and sometimes not so gently) poke holes in his theories. So, initially H said he wasn't loved and appreciated at home. I pulled out cards and mementos that the kids and I had given him during the A years to show there was a lot of love and appreciation for him. He sat on the floor in a heap and wept as he looked at each item. Whatever his next reason was, I had to find a way to show him, his reasoning didn't hold water. It took a long time to come out of the fog, but I had to let my H process through all the excuses he'd created and show him with each one that he didn't have a viable excuse for an A outside of himself. After cycling through all his off-kilter reasoning, there wasn't anywhere else to look but inside himself. It was a painfully, long, arduous, torturous process for both of us...but I think it was the progression of confronting the fallacies that finally led H to confronting the truth.

Its what worked for us, but I understand that it's not a cure-all for everyone. Thanks, Sun, for saying what I wanted to say...but saying it better. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

I haven't read "His Needs, Her Needs", but it is on our Helpful Links book list, because someone recommended it. I agree that it's not directly affair related, however the author, Willard Harley, has written another book which is also on our book list, is directly related to affair recovery, and I have read. That book is centered on his core belief about the "mechanics" of love relationships and love feelings, that they are based on a "love bank" where acts of love are "stored up" to produce love feelings. In his theory, unloving acts remove "deposits" from the love bank and when the balance goes below a critical level, then love feelings stop.

I don't agree very much with this assesement of how love works, but you might consider the value of knowing the information and ideas that he is using and thinking about. Having a common point can be the starting point of a conversation about how affairs happen. It can be a catalyst toward reading other, better books.

For my wife the most crucial thing she learned in recovery was that she was responsible for her behavior in the affair, she was responsible for her behavior in recovery, and she is responsible for her behavior now. It was a major transition when she finally admitted and accepted those ideas. However we did not get there overnight. It took six or seven years for her to make this connection. I don't think it should take that long for most people, but my wife was very ingrained in certain ideas about herself and about life, and she was very stubborn about giving those things up. The only way she got there was through our continual discussion of the affair, how it unfolded, her feelings during it, and her role in it. She read many, many books although most of them were not directly connected to affairs, but personal character and spiritual growth.

I played a role too. I believe I enabled her shirking of responsiblity in order to put as much blame on the OM as possible, to give her as much excuse as possible, to minimize the "amount" of forgiveness I had to offer. I wanted to excuse her rather than forgive her. However, the truth kept ringing out to me, and every attempt to minimize was quickly followed by a realization that she could not be excused. We rode the rollercoaster. Only when I finally accepted it for myself (that she was not excusable) was I able to confront her that we could no longer continue on this path, and we both had to accept her responsiblity for the affair or our marriage would not likely last much longer. She sought out new counseling, finally wrote out her confession which she had been "working on" for several years, and really put the whole thing to bed.

The whole thing was a process, a process that is not yet fully complete, but also involves much less conflict than it did just a couple of years ago. Your husband's first book is possibly the first step that he has really taken in that process. It might not be the best first step, but at least it's generally in the right direction. As long as he wants to keep on walking in the right direction then you could be on the journey to reconcilation.

TomJ

<<I don't agree very much with this assesement of how love works, but you might consider the value of knowing the information and ideas that he is using and thinking about. Having a common point can be the starting point of a conversation about how affairs happen. It can be a catalyst toward reading other, better books.>>

I read online about the Love Bank theory, and it helped me. It helped me most directly by visualizing how my H's love bank was in the negatives, and how long and hard I sincerely needed to work before I could expect ANY signs of love back from him. His mere presence in the M was sign enough at the point we were at, considering how I had wiped out the love bank balance in one swoop. So while I can see that love is not as concrete as the theory can make it sound, the realization it gave me was something that helped fuel me on in my perserverance to not give up in the aftermath of DDay.

I'm not trying to be arguementative on the theory itself, only sharing how it helped me in my particular healing journey.

Sun

Sun:

That's a good point that I'm glad you made... what he's learning has some degree of truth and merit. This can be used to make points about the status of the relationship now, and what he needs to do in recovery, as well as forming the basis for further discussions.

BTW Sun, just because I don't like the idea doesn't mean other people won't. Not like I'm some kind of expert.

TomJ

I liked this book too, but not in any way as A recovery. Too soon after dday and this book sounds ALOT like blame.

One reason I liked it is because way earlier, in MC, our C did an exercise where we were to list off the things we did to show our love. (he did not relate this in any way to love banking, just what actions we each thought showed love) and HOLY SMOKE! we were both so far off on what we thought the other person would appreciate.

No wonder I was wearing myself ragged trying to do all the right things and not seeing any change - I was aiming completely in the wrong direction!!!

Dr. Harley's book is the flip side of this coin - what does each person feel as a need?

but this book is a 'down the road' kind of book IMO.

Back in the days of Rose and Bart, one of them use to post and repost something like "Having an A is a really poor way to try to meet your partner's needs" It would be good to deal with the A - THEN re-establish what is needed for rebuilding maybe by reading this book together.... but that's not the case you find yourself in.

My concern is though... he's picked this book and if you are wanting to ever be the one to pick the next book and have this method of communication opened, you might have to go along.

If you go through with this and read this book together, I would suggest setting some ground rules about reading it without pointing backwards... do you think you can read it in "what do we want to do to recover" instead of what might come all too naturally "this is what went wrong" My guess is that you were not getting your needs met either, but this could open up a spiral of blame if you don't keep it forward-focused.

Let us know what happens.

Unfortunately, I instinctively knew that the main reason the marriage was failing and my WH was cheating was due to his drug use. The main issue of drug addiction must be dealt with FIRST, otherwise nothing was going to change in the marriage.

Lisa, have you read "Codependent No More"? It is a really good book for YOU to read. There is not much difference in standing up to your WH about his drug use than there is when you stand up to your WH about his A. It is all connected in my opinion, and my IC would agree. The more I have read and the more I go to IC I believe it to be true. As long as he is using he is cheating on you....the drugs are the OW. The OW is the substance of choice at that moment or visa-versa. The A and the drugs are both self destructive behaviors and mirror each other. There is no difference when you break the behaviors down to their core. Which is why when he does deal with the subatsnce addiction, he will begin to deal with the A.

My WH thought that by simply not seeing the OW things would get better between us, and they did for awhile. But when I found out he was still doing the drugs and lying to me after promising over and over again to quit, it was the same betrayal all over again. It was another d-day for me when I found his stash....it was like finding him with the OW in the act. If they continue to lie and continue with behaviors that are unacceptable in marriage, then nothing truly changed did it? That is why we are back at square one (him having another A and doing drugs)...just as you and your WH are back at square one. The only difference this time is that I have removed myself from the cycle. His addiction is no longer MY problem...I have walked away from it. It is his problem to deal with or not. There is nothing I can do. I have had to accept that....and that has not been easy to do.

In the end, nothing changes if nothing changes!



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

ETA: How are you doing Lisa?

I haven't and don't feel much like posting, but wanted to thank you all for responding.

I am doing OK, keeping busy some days and crashing on others. I've gone back on meds, anti D & anxiety. I've been trying to do things for me. even cleaning the house for ME, has made me feel better. Like I'm not doing it for someone but for ME.

Cal, I am off to the library right now to get the book Co-Dependent No More.

Lisa