After the kids went to bed last night WH stayed for a little while. He had not done that in a long time. So I took the opportunity to talk to him. He said very little, as usual. He mostly listened. I needed to know if he was still seeing OW#2, and he said yes. He said he didnt think I'd care. I told him of course I care...you are my husband and we never agreed to see other people...you knew that! I asked him how he would feel if I was out there sleeping with other guys? No answer! I asked him why did he say he would stop when I asked, but didnt? No answer! I asked once again if he was trying to do anything to come back home, and he said he had thought about it often. Well, that really wasn't an answer was it. But as everyone tells me, actions speak louder than words so in a way I do have my answers, dont I? I have been trying to so hard to not face it. But I cannot deny it anymore and I must accept that he made his choice that day when he walked out the door with the pot. He asked me how I felt. I said I feel abandoned. I said my self worth went out the window, I thought I was more important than the pot, but apparently not. I said I dont know why the pot is so important to him. I mean, I understand addiction, but I have not been addicted to a substance so I have never had to walk in his shoes, but I know you need to make a choice to stop using. He did not make that choice...

We talked (I talked) about several other issues about letting go of the past...that it cannot be changed and how we can grow and learn from our mistakes. How WH keeps making the same mistakes and not learning from them. He actually seemed to agree with me. Since he didnt speak Im not sure, but there were tears rolling down his face. Not like he hasnt cried before. He seems to "feel" something but then does nothing about it....not motivated enough I guess so nothing changes. The tears mean nothing <sigh>

Time to for me to do something...waiting in this limboland he11 called separation, is only causing me more pain, stress and anxiety. I cant sleep again...I cant eat much...and I am feeling rather depressed most of the time....especially when Im alone and the kids have gone to bed. And I have not been feeling much like myself....I have been doing things that aren't me, and I am not happy with myself because of it right now. Like I said before I have days where I feel I can do this and days where I dont know which way is up. Funny how I was doing so well before I found out he was cheating again. I was feeling so strong. Maybe Im being too hard on myself, I dont know, expectig too much of myself so soon. I am allowed to hurt, afterall I was just betrayed AGAIN...d-day #3 was only about 10 weeks ago.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal my dear

If you could see a fire burning and knew it would burn you, would you continue to stick your hand in it?

Hon...stop doing this to yourself. Don't ask him anymore questions. He is done, checked out. He isn't going to change his mind and if he does he can come to you and find some way to get your attention to halt the proceedings. Do what Cal needs to do. Move on with your life.

I know you don't want to. I know you keep hoping. Spending time with him when you are this vulnerable isn't really the greatest idea. It makes letting go much more difficult. Is there anyway you can reduce the time spent to strictly visiting the children and at inlaws.

Everytime you are alone with him you seem to feel the need to talk and you hit the same brick wall, then you get depressed. That worries me Cal. For your sake it really worries me. It is hard to heal when the wound just keeps getting opened up.

We all care about you so much. I just wish I had that magic pill to take away the pain....

Hugs
Kid

Just got off the phone with WH. He said he needed to talk to his IC cause he didnt want his chocies to hurt others. I told him he was too late there, that his choices have hurt me and the kids for a long time, so I dont know what you mean by that. I told him if I feel abandoned I can only imagine how the kids feels. I told him he keeps putting himself first and does what feels good at the moment and doesnt think how it is going to affect others....that he is selfish. He said he wanted to make some changes. I said well, first you thanked me for giving you space to work on yourself and make changes then the next thing I know you're cheating and declare that now your not working to come home. So how do you think I feel? I said at times I dont even want to talk to you cause I know you're f-ing someone else. How would you feel if I was sleeping with other men? He answered this time and said "bad". He has no clue! I told him it goes beyond feeling bad. I said it feels as if my world was ripped apart...all my hopes and dreams walked out that door...my heart torn apart. He doesnt get it on little bit! I told him I dont know how he can think it's ok to sleep around and have his family too...there is nothing logical in that statement. I aksed him if he misses me and the kids, and he said yes. Then I asked him if he regrets his decision, and he said yes. Yet, he does nothing to fix things...nothing to make things better. They are just words to him! I dont think he feels anything for anyone, except anger towards his mother. He is so angry with her, and all she did was tell him like it was and recite a few quotes from the bible. The way he reacted you would have thought she took a knife to his throat.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

EDITED TO ADD: Kim...I was writing as you were posting. And you're right. I have to go back to limiting my contact with him. Almost ever night he wants to talk to me on the phone. Usually just day to day things or things about the kids...but he still tries to keep the connection and so do I when he's around and it is making it VERY hard to let go. I do see this...

Hugs GIRLFRIEND!!!!!

My exH used to come around to "talk" and for a booty call. For a while that was enough because I thought that meant he was missing me. He would say he missed me and say all the right things so that he could continue on with his cake and eating it to.

Your H didn't have this many affairs by not knowing how to manipulate people Cal. Maybe he is genuine, but until he proves it keep moving forward!

I thought that way too the first time I kicked him out. Everyone says sex is how men stay connected....so I believed that. No booty calls here this time...which is why he went off and found another OW, or at least the excuse he is giving this time. The first time I played that game for about 3 months with him...that was how he wormed his way back in the house without having done enough work and only to keep lying to me about the pot for another year. I said no way this time. Given our sexual chemistry, I was proud that I was strong enough to do that, lol. But my heart has a harder time throwing in the towel

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal:

I'm sorry that you're going through more of this. I'm sure that whatever conversations you have, no matter how painful, they are part of your process for letting go, for continuing to give the marriage every chance. I don't blame you one bit. Sometimes people are able to 'let go' of their marriage in what seems like a short time, while others seem to hold on past what we think is needed. However, each person is different and they are in different circumstances that play a role in dictating how they respond to the situation. Don't pressure yourself to talk to him or to not talk to him. It is what it is.

I can see that some of what has just transpired seems hopeful to some small extent. Unfortunately he's an unrepentant addict and it's my guess that until the addiction is resolved there is very little that he can promise and make stick. The fact that he contradicts himself so frequently (he's sorry that he's done what he has done, but still continues to do it), shows that he is totally stuck in his behavior. It's ironic that he has these political beliefs (it sounds like he's on the Libertarian/Constitutional line of thinking) that support individual liberty, yet he misses the fundamental point of liberty... when a person enjoys that kind of liberty, they must take responsibility for themselves and exercise self-restraint. Even those political movements understand that while Liberty will allow you destroy yourself if you wish, you are better off if you make refrain from doing those things, such as abusing drugs, that will destroy you, your family, your livelihood, and your happiness. Alcohol is a good example, since it is legal to use, but those who choose to abuse it almost always end up with some degree of heartache to show for it.

TomJ

About his pot addiction...
Okay. I am by no means an expert on this subject from a scientific stand point. Instead, I come at this from personal experience. I think I have told you before (and if I haven't I am now ) that I also used to be a pot smoker. Probably for about 5 years. So here is my story about how pot played a role in my life vs how pot played a role in my Hs life.

I began using pot when I was probably about 16 - 17. I used it to have a good time. It was not a coping mechanism for me. I had a very happy child hood and was well adjusted, so I didn't really have anything to cope with. I liked the high it gave me. I quit using pot when it stopped serving that purpose. When pot started making me feel depressed and bad about myself (which I am not usually prone to) I quit and havent used it for 7-8 years. I don't ever miss being high, I never have the urge to smoke it even when offered. Also, I did not suffer any kind of withdrawals. I wasn't crabby, and I quit cold turkey. Looking back (hindsight being 20/20 and all) there are definitely better ways I could have spent my young adult hood.

For my H, pot is his way of not facing reality. Pot IS his coping mechanism. I always felt (feel) that he is not addicted to the pot, its more like he's addicted to not facing reality and the mess he has made of his life. I figured that the longer he did not have to face reality the likelihood that he would ever quit got slimmer and slimner. There may be a physical addiction to it, I don't really know but I think it's more of mental thing really. And the longer you have been set in that frame of mind the further you get from being willing to take on any other kind of frame of mind. It would mean a whole life change. It's not just giving up pot.... its giving up the world you have invented in your mind when your on the drug. And for some people they can't ever let it go.

Our H's are so similar and our situations Cal. And I always feel like I should be able to say something wise and meaningful that would really help you out. But I can offer you whatever answers you might need from someone who has been there - on both ends of the situation.

Hugs

Peanut

We help ourselves when we help others

Cal -

In the 7 years I have been on this site, I have been carrying the flag of "Hope Springs Eternal"

and I have encouraged people to hang in there and be sure and wait to end their marriage just like they waited to "be sure" before they started it.

always, my advice has been to be patient

...but Cal... your H is a cakeman. He wants his cake and he wants to come "home" and find out that he's STILL special. If he finds that in the form of torturing you to tears or hearing the pain in your voice or just watching you get upset..... it seems that he's using you for some validation that dispite his sins, he's still "wanted" or "valued" or "worth the effort"

The only time (it seems) that you have EVER seen the slightest bit of change from him is when he's been afraid that he's losing that validation.

If this theory is correct and he's content in sleeping with OW and getting the occasional lift from you that he's STILL special, then there is no end in sight and you could be in this pattern for a long, long time. This could last for years.

I'm really sorry to say this but aside from "I do not want to talk to you unless it regards the best interest in one of the children" my suggestion is that you align your financial best interests from the business and figure out a way to separate emotionally and financially from this man. Share the parenting as necessary and protect your heart.

-Susan

(((Cal))))

And may I add my two cents? I agree with all the postings so far...great advice. We all can feel your suffering...

But I think you're playing into it now, Cal. You are enabling this pain to continue. Release the "cakeman." Do it now for YOUR sake. Do this for YOU.

And then...limit your conversations to topics of necessity...kids, bills, etc. Please STOP being his therapist and his conscience. He just doesn't get your common sense advice. You need to turn that great advice toward yourself...and listen to it.

That door needs to shut.

Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ

I agree with JJ.

I recall feeling like I was my WH’s therapist/counselor towards the end of our relationship. I thought at that point, knowing that basically there was no hope for our relationship after the numerous betrayals that I could, that I SHOULD at least attempt to “save” him. I can now say with embarrassment that I went that route as a means of holding on to him and us. (Silly me!)

It was in a conversation that he and I were having about what he had done… the big picture, whole enchilada. I don’t even recall what he said exactly, but I remember these words coming out of my mouth, “… and how does that make you feel?” LIGHTBULB! I thought – who cares how it made YOU feel! What about me? Why am I sitting here trying to help YOU figure YOU out when every other word that comes out of your mouth is a lie? When what I say, do, beg for, desire, need means nothing to you? Why am I wasting my precious time and life on this person, feeling sorry for him in “his” pain and turmoil and giving advice that I know wont be taken??? Why??? Because I didn’t want to let go. I realized at that very moment that he was no longer mentally torturing me… I was doing it to myself!

Why do we hold onto to something that is so toxic to our own selves? Because we can. Basically the same sense of reasoning why our WS strayed… because they could. The affair was toxic itself, but so many WS hang on to this toxic fantasy creating multiple D Days for us. Either way you look from either end of any A phase, it is toxic, but when we begin to create the toxicity inside our own selves it is time to let go. Only each of us know that point where we need to release and mine came when I began screaming to myself, “WHAT ABOUT ME?”

Hugs Cal!

Coral


"A discovery is said to be an accident meeting a prepared mind."

Tom...thank you for your kind words and your perspective. You are right about him....until he stop susing the pot to mask his issues and deal with them, there is no way our marriage is ever going to work. I have known that for a long time. And I do pressure myself. When I cannot deliever, when I back down, I feel bad about myself.


JJ, Susan & Coral: Indeed...what about me? What he is doing is unfair to me, and in return I am being unfair to myself. I thought about stopping by the business on my way home from an appointment today to tell him how I feel. Then I thought "why? Why should I go there? why should I tell him how I feel. Is it because I need to say it or is it because I expect him to do something about it, or give me answers?" It was to give me answers. He rarely anwers my questions, and as Coral said, half of what he does say is a lie. So why do that to myself I thought, and I drove home instead of going to see him. If I go talk to him then he is "special" and I do validate him. UGH! I never thought of it that way.

The question swirling in my head was, why is it ok to cheat on me with OW#2, but you are not going to cheat on her with me? Why do you feel the need to be faithful to her, a woman you barely know, who is not your wife, and not to me? We have been together for over 20 years, we have a business and 3 kids...a family and a home. He has only known her for a few months. So what is so special about her and not me? The answer she is not special. He is doing this on purpose to cause me pain. And Im allowing it, which is one reason I am so angry at myself and trying to push myself. It seems when I stand up he tries to knock me down again. It may take me time to gather strength back, but the good thing is that I do get back up again and fight for myself.

Peanut, thank you. I agree with everything you said. I have other ways of coping...drawing, going to the beach, or even doing something with the kids makes me feel better. My WH has been using pot to cope since he was like 16 years old. Until he learns another way of coping , and slays those demons there is no way anything is ever going to get better. And I cannot do it for him, and as Coral said, I cannot be his therapist either. It is only bringing me down.

Thank you....everyone's advice is right on and I agree. You have no idea how each and everyone of your replies hit on something! I know it is up to me to do something for ME....to stop allowing him to get to me and to stop trying to help him. You cannot help someone who doesnt want to be helped. I understand....I just have to accept it, and move on.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Hey Cal,

I'm having a garage sale in the next month or so. Do you want my old suitcases to help you move on?

Tee Hee

Be strong. I KNOW you are.

ff

Honesty Cal - he may be doing it on purpose to not cause himself pain. Cowardly as that may sound - he knows if he is lucky enough that you allow him to stay with you that he will have to deal with the issues at hand and that is painful.

Sounds like maybe he doesn't want to mix the two worlds, you and OW2. He may not be "trying" to knock you down, but by him not facing reality and his problems, he causes you more pain.

You like me have given ample opportunities to work through what has happened, but if your H is like my H was then he may just be afraid of facing the facts of what he has done and is doing. It is easier to hide in the fantasy world with another OW then look himself in the mirror and make the changes that are so desperately needed to be with you. Should we expect anymore? I know my H started his spiral of destruction because he didn't want to truly face his pain, so when he caused pain to the person who loved him most (me) should I really have expected him to be the stand up guy and face it? What is that saying... you have to love yourself first before you can love another???? None of it is an excuse, but it sure hit me hard when I heard my inner voice saying, "what about me?"

The question is how long do we give them that opportunity to face those facts and make changes? In actual time, I granted my WH 348 days. I can look back now and say that was probably 300 days more than I should of.

Letting go is the hardest thing I ever had to do - heck I know exactly how many days it took me to let go even almost a year later. As much as people told me to, it was still difficult and I even knew deep down that it was the right thing to do for me. I had wasted enough time on someone that seemed to be comfortable in a life of lies and I was not about to start lying to myself just to hold on. I mean really... what was I holding on to?

Take care lady!

"A discovery is said to be an accident meeting a prepared mind."

What am I holding on to? My IC has asked me that question as well. The truth is, my hopes and dreams....my family. He says I can still have hopes and dreams and my family it will just not be as I envisioned. And I have lots of fears, some I have faced and some I havent. I dont want to be alone forever...but I also dont want to stay with someone who doesnt really care about me. Sure he loves me in his own way, but it isnt good enough, and I know it. But knowing something and acting on it are two different things cause fear holds us back....and that is what that leap of faith is all about...letting go of the fear. Maybe Im ready, cause what do I have to lose?

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal,

I do understand... I felt the same way as you. I came up with every reason to hold on, but as time went on and he continued to take from me and yet never once gave an honest ounce in return - those reasons diminished.

If and when that times comes for you to let go, you will know. It hit me like a ton of bricks. One day I was finding anything I could hold on to and then next day I felt like taking a broom to my life and sweeping it clean. I call that my "attic" phase. It was like I stored all these things inside me and felt so bogged down and cluttered in my mind. I had placed items everywhere from all the lies, multiple D days, false hope, OW and so on.... I could no longer think in my best interest. It became clear to me that the past 300 days I had not been thinking in my best interest. Anyone got a dustpan???

The first few months after letting go weren't easy - I admit that. In fact my H tried to come back still. "I am a changed man!" It was tempting - be alone or be with him? Well let me tell you that I now know without a shadow of a doubt that being alone is so much healthier for me than traveling through that sewer he called his life. That revelation didn't come quick, but in fact - it did come.

He is in counseling. I am thankful for that. If it isn't me, it will be some other poor soul. He needs help and lots of it before he could ever have a satisfying and healthy relationship. I talk with him occasionally. Not as much as he would like, but I feel good when I hear a phone message from him asking me to call him back and I say to myself, "not today, maybe tomorrow if I am not to busy loving me."

You deserve it Cal.

Oh by the way - I found that the broom was slow and sometimes tiring. I had a lot of sweeping to do after that year so I upgraded to a wonderful new vac, AKA counselor, whose last name just happens to be Hoover. (True story!)



"A discovery is said to be an accident meeting a prepared mind."

Coral...thank you for all of your words of wisdom. Your post was very helpful. And thank you for making me laugh...Hoover, lol

I have a wonderful IC who I trust and who has helped me so much. I have an appointment with him later today. Today I think we are going to focus on letting go and moving forward. He said he will have some reading material for me in that regard. I feel I need to let go...I have had that feeling every since d-day 3. WH just doesnt seem to able to learn from his mistakes and he keeps on hurting me. It has to stop....the pain has to stop. I feel overwhelmed by it and I don't feel I have much of a choice anymore. Either I let go, or I get swallowed up by this pain. Much better to let go. I need to stop fighting it and surrender to it. It is what it is and there is nothing more I can do.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Cal - I was thinking about something my IC once said to me about the OW when I was struggling to make sense of her actions towards me after dday - He said you are expecting an irrational person to behave in a rational way and it's not going to happen. He also said to me that I should be very careful about letting myself be drawn into her craziness ie. giving her too much space in my head - that he had seen more than one rational BS become somewhat crazed because of an irrational OW. Your H's words and actions have the same kind of crazy-making quality about them. He doesn't talk or act like a thoughtful and rational person because its not what he is. When you are more distant from him, you write in a whole other way. When you have more interaction with him, you can see in your words how he tosses you about. He's not a rational man. His actions have little to do really with anything about you. They aren't even a reflection of how he feels about you or your family - they're about his own stuff. Your love was generosity itself but it can't change him. I'm sure it will get easier to stand back from him over time. Love is such a hard thing to put aside. MM

MM,

Thank you for your reply. My IC has said the exact same things to me about my WH. So I agree with you. I also see it and feel it, how being closer to him makes me feel more out of control of my life...less strong. People have told me that is how you know someone is toxic for you...they suck the life right out of you. That is what he does to me. I am at the point where I realise I am hurting myself because I keep getting sucked back in. I feel right now I have no other choice (after finding out he is still seeing OW), for my own sanity and self-respect, except to continue with my plans to file for divorce. It is still not what I want, but it seems I have very little choice left.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

EDITED TO ADD: I feel a little more at peace right now. Anxious about what is to come....fear of the future being unknown. I have never had to talk to a lawyer ever (before all this D stuff I mean)...it was such a hard step to take. WH came over today to give me my allowance (as i call it) and he tried to kiss me good-bye...I turned away. I was very cold to him today. Something that is usually hard for me to do.

We talked (I talked) about several other issues about letting go of the past...that it cannot be changed and how we can grow and learn from our mistakes. How WH keeps making the same mistakes and not learning from them

Cal,

I was reading your post when these lines jumped out at me. How true and how sad. My ex-husband was/is the same way. He never learned from his past mistakes (or owned up to them for that matter) and still hasn't learned. In the past he was inconsiderate whenever he was going to be late, he still is. In the past he would apologize for getting us into a huge fight, he still does (though he rarely apologizes anymore). He said that he "learned" from his mistake with his OW but yet, his fiancee lives with him (though he denies it) and he made the same mistakes with OW as he did with me and will with fiancee. I give his new marriage only 5 years tops to survive, until he can learn from what went wrong with our marriage and the part he played in the downfall of it, he will NEVER have a successful relationship. Of course, this takes counseling and introspection, neither of which he is interested in doing. So, I feel for you when you state your WH has not learned from his past mistakes. Sadly, the insincere ones never do.

I am thinking of you and your family. You have a long road ahead of you and it will be a rough road but you are a strong woman, you will get through it and become even stronger on the other side.

Take care,

DH

Boy, am I a tough nut to crack. I keep coming back for more. Last night WH called to say good-night to the kids he also wanted to talk to me...mainly about the kids. Our son is turning 18 tomorrow and today the little guy was supposed to go to the annual fishing derby, where our business supplies the food. Anyway, I told him we really need to talk, in person, if he could come by. Of course he is too busy and too tired. I have not asked him to stop by and talk to me in months. If we talk it's either cause he called or he was here with the kids. So this triggers lots of stuff for me. How he has always been too busy for me but has enough time for getting high and f-ing OW's. So we got into a bit of a fight. He tells me how every time he talk to me I make him feel so bad. I said, I have given you a million compliments but all you hear is the one negative in all of it. He said, I know, it's part of my personality. Anyway, I dont know if talking to him is doing more harm or good...meaning the more I talk to him the more I see how he is in the fog deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, and how I am getting nowhere...we keep rehashing the same crap. But I asked the burning question, so why is it OK to cheat on me and not her, I am your wife, why does OW deserve better than me? He said no one deserves better than anyone else. I said, uhm, yes I do cause Im your wife! Then I called her a whore (yep, bad, I know). Of course this pissed him off. He asked me not to talk to him like that. I said, so where has being nice got me? Excuse me if Im a bit cynical these days. I treated you with love, kindness, and respect, and where did it get me? Then he went off about how I threw him away...and how he didnt think Id care if he slept with someone else....how he was lonely cause I was at home and had the kids to keep me company...and how he was suffering at the apartment. I said yeah, I see you suffering alright, you got Mr. Stinky Pants and your OW, every night is a party and a f-fest! He said, it's not like that. I said then how is it since you never tell me? He said, I was weak, I was struggling with the pot, I didnt know what else to do. I said, you could have just talked to me....you could have checked into rehab or a recovery program. He said I never listen to him. I said that's not true. I said you chose the pot and walked out the door, I said what did you want from me...I told you my needs...I told you to talk to me but you couldnt do it...why? He says the usual, I dont know. I said we cant work things out if you never tell me what's going on inside of you. Again, he said, that's just my personality. Well, then his personality is problematic isnt it? How can a marriage work if this is his personality? Which is a load of garbage by the way. If he cant change at least that one thing and be honest and share his feelings, then the rest of his issues are hopless.

He said he works hard while I go out to dinners and lunches with my friends. I said stood there by your side for 16 years...there is more to being a father and husband than providing financially. I said, finances are important yes, but you need to be there emotionally and physically. He said he doesnt know what he wants, that he needs time to figure it out. I told him again, he cant figure anything out as long as he is f-ing OW. Then he said again, he is trying to make changes and just live his life. I guess HIS life doesnt include "us". It's always been about him and it appears it always will be about him. He is so extremely selfish. All he cared about were his feelings and his needs. I really saw that during this conversation.

Anyway, I do need to really talk to him. I need to restate some boundaries here. As long as he is cheating, I dont want to have anything to do with him. I upheld that boundary for awhile, then a special occasion came along where I felt we should include him, and that was the end of that...he thought it was an open invitation from then on. That was about 3 weeks ago. So I have to put that boundary back in place immediately. And yes, I still plan on filing for D. I have scheduled another consultation with a different lawyer, but he is VERY busy and I will not see him until the 19th...UGH! But I need a second opinion and get a feel for who is right for me before I decide who to file with.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

(((Cal)))
Reading your post made me think about what my son's (and my) therapist said. I am sure you know this as well. Of course she knows the situation in H's and my M. She asked me what if H is just not capable of doing what needs to be done? I am sure you have maybe realized that with your H. I think the sadest part of this is accepting the fact that they can't do what they need to do to help everyone heal from the A. Even to this day, H still doesn't get it or comprehend it. I am really beginning to believe that he can't deliver because he is just not capable. Maybe it's too complecated, overwhelming, etc. for them.

Just the other night, H went to help a friend move. The first night he got home really late, which I expected. The second night he said he was going to leave at 11:00. He got home late again. It really made me sad/mad (??) because he is suppose to be building trust and should of called me to tell me he was still there helping out. He could of left a message on my cell even though he knew I was already asleep.

Before the A, this use to be a big issue and he knew it. I would think that by now, after everything that has happened, he would make it a point to call (especially after he told me he would be home earlier that night). Instead of understanding and accepting that he screwed up by not calling, he was bothered that I was upset. I don't think/feel that he was up to no good. Did I mention that he has ADHD? I sometimes wonder if that's partly why he doesn't get it. All I know is that I am having trouble dealing with his "issues" and feel that I need to accept the way he makes me feel (insecured) if I want to remain married. I also know that I can't deal with feeling insecured. Can I live with someone that drives me crazy in this way? Will he abuse the fact that he has ADHD and may use it as an excuse at times? So what is one to do?

I don't know if I helped or anything. I just wanted to tell you that I understand the fustration you are feeling. I really think that they just don't get it, or maybe they are just not sure about the M. I also think that if they didn't really care somewhat about us, they wouldn't be around at all (well maybe to pick up the kids for an outing or so). Does that make sense?

(((hugs)))
Jetta

Thank you Jetta...and yes it does help. If this is who they are, and it's not just an excuse, then what hope do I have? Untimately it is just more proof that this is their issue and they need to deal with it. But how do we keep from owning it when it's not ours to own? What I mean by that is that thier choices, their issues affect us and the marriage, yet they are the only ones who can do anything about it. Here we sit in frustration and pain because of it. Do we accept that this is who they are and that this is as good as it gets, or do we say this is something we cannot tolerate, especially after the A. The A changed everything. There were things I could tolerate before the A that now I cant becuase now I know I deserve better. But you cant make someone step up to the plate and give better. What else can i do but let go? But letting go is just too hard. I still love this man!!! Yet, I have to take care of me and I know the only way to do that is to let him go...why can't I just do it? That is just another added frustration...the fact that I am having such a hard time letting go of someone who has not treated me with the love, kindness, and respect I deserve. It makes me feel like there is something wrong with me. Maybe there is, All I know is that I have always envisioned my life with my husband. I was always willing to do whatever it took...but he would just give up, then try, then give up...always leaving me with the possibility of hope...that one day he would finally see, that he would finally keep his word and do whatever it took and give us a real chance. After all the lies he has told and all of the things he has done, you'd think I'd learn by now to have no expectations. Having expectations is what keeps the hope alive...and that is my issue. How do you have no hope...even if it is false hope? It is a form of denial I think, because I cannot accept that this is what my marriage has been deteriorated to...the verge of divorce. I never thought this is where I would be...where WE would be. It is so hard for me to accept, again, my issue. This is just not what I want...but I cannot will it to be any other way...I have no control over his choices and actions...and these are the consequences....and as my IC pointed out to me, I am the only one suffering from those consequences. And why is that? Cause I am not protecting myself. I am not FULLY taking care of me right now. I am too worried and focused on his and his A right now....when the focus should be on me. But how do I do that? How do I get back to focusing on me when Im in such pain?



~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

As Ami wrote, I TOTALLY TOTALLY relate to what she wrote. I too made myself into a victim and behaved like one, allowing my H to treat me with cruelty, disrespect and total disregard for my needs. Like Ami's H, mine as out almost every night, never telling me where he was, never picking up his cell phone, never calling to let me know what time he'd be home. I wandered our apt, obsessively calling his cell, unable to sleep, often crying in pain and frustration, feeling so unimportant and abandoned. More often than not, he would come home drunk and emotionally/verbally be abusive screaming at me for wanting to "cage him," threatening to leave me. His behavior was unacceptable - no one should allow themselves to be treated as I was.

And later, when I found out what was going on many of those nights, I went into a rage filled with regret. Like Ami, that rage still surfaces for me and it is overwhelming. How could he have done that to me? How could I have let him?

In some ways, the hardest part of my recovery is forgiving myself for allowing H to treat me like dirt - what was wrong with me? I was filled with shame and self-hatred.I am very, very slowly beginning to accept that I was emotionally/psychologically sick, did not get the help I needed and did the best I could at the time.

Yes, H and I are together and doing really well but the toll on me has been high, in terms of what he and I both did to my self esteem. And the only reason we are together is that H has been unbelievably remorseful, has looked long and hard at himself, has stopped drinking and has done everything I have asked of him. Still, I have regrets about not kicking him out long before D Day. I think that I would be in a healthier place today, knowing that I refused to accept crap from a man. Going forward, I know that I will never accept that again - no man is worth it.

You have the opportunity to avoid the incredible regret and intense pain of behaving in a way that is disrespectful to yourself. You are getting great help from your IC and great advice from the people here. Your H is making his choices. My advice is for you to make choices that you will not be ashamed of, that are the choices of a confident, strong woman who values herself and knows what she deserves in a relationship. Be that woman. I wish I had.

But I also know first-hand how incredibly hard that is for so many reasons. I wish you courage which you already seem to have in great supply.

Cal,

I am so sorry you are hurting.

I have a few thoughts I want to share.

You wrote, "Anyway, I do need to really talk to him. I need to restate some boundaries here." Cal, you do NOT need to talk to him. You do NOT need to restate your boundaries. You have told him. He just chooses to ignore what you have said. It is YOUR job to uphold YOUR boundaries for YOU and for your children. I have the feeling that you believe that if you say the right thing the right way, your H will have THE lightbulb moment, see your point, and change. I understand because I have felt that way about my H in the past when he was in a fog. But, sweetie, those moments are few and far between, are not usually nearly as big as we would like them to be, and don't come to people with a closed mind, which is what your H has right now.

You need to stop talking and start acting. Uphold your boundaries, talk seriously to a lawyer, put distance between you, your H and his parents, make plans for YOUR future that don't include your H.

Second, my therapist told me that healthy people attract healthy people, and dysfunctional people attract dysfunctional people. I know because I grew up in a dysfunctional family, as did my H. And, gee, look what we have been through! So work on getting YOU healthy. It is NOT your job to heal your H. You know you can't because no matter how much you want your H to be the man of your dreams, in his present incarnation, he can't and won't be.

Embrace your life. Reject the negative. You only have one chance at living. Don't hold yourself down by letting your self-worth be determined by your H.

Encouraging AND comforting fairy hugs, and LOADS of them,

fairyfriend

I do need to really talk to him. I need to restate some boundaries here. As long as he is cheating, I dont want to have anything to do with him. ..... So I have to put that boundary back in place immediately.


Cal -
You DON'T need to talk to him. Just say "NO"

Talking to him does not help him and it hurts you. Realized that you slipped up in the last couple weeks and redouble your efforts to put distance and the "I don't want anything to do with him" back in place. This doesn't take a conversation.

-Susan

Hello dear Cal - I have been away from here for a while but wanted to come back and see how things are - particularly with you.  I have read this whole thread and am impressed by the good advice given.  The biggest impression I have however is the love that you have given and are giving to your husband.  I just wanted to say how wonderful this is and am inspired by how much you have put into this.

Oh and I know the good advice about tough love and true love meaning letting go etc.. I have been given all that advice myself and still I am not sure I can let go of my own love for my wife - It hurts so much I know.

may you be safe and well, contented and happy.

(((((((((JERRY)))))))))))))! Thank you for your response. It is so great to hear from you!

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha