Last night we had a blowout of sorts. He is still talking to her. I know he will always talk to her until I stand firm in what I believe and what boundaries I set, but I havn't done it. I back down. Every single time. Last night I asked him if I could ask him a question without him getting mad? I don't know if that is a fair question to ask but did it anyway. I asked if they had a set time to leave work and call each other. It seems that he waits to leave depending on her schedule so they can talk. I don't like it. I see everyday it is more than just a friendship still. Not that there is sex involved but a very emotional bond is there. I told him if it were just a friendship, a normal one that he states it is, then they wouldn't have to talk every single day. They wouldn't know when the other person would leave. If they happen to get to talk then ok but don't schedule your time around it. So, I am seeing it more clearly. Instead of talking to me about it and letting me vent, he got mad. He turned it around and then started saying that it shouldn't matter when he talks to her.
We didn't fight or yell but we talked about feelings that I didn't see. We stayed up into the wee morning hours. Not getting very much accomplished but hearing what the other one thought about things. I was very honest with him about why, at first, I would want him to be friends. I saw the cycle of what I was doing and told him. I told him I wanted it to stop. That everytime I would tell him I wanted it to end, that he would always make me feel guilty, then I would start saying it was ok to have it (because if he was happy, then why shouldn't I be?)but I would always end up back at point A, where I told him to stop talking to her and the cycle would start all over. So, I flip flop back and forth. He doesn't like it when I do that but when I tell him to stop he always comes back with something that I feel bad about.
So, we talk about that. I tell him how selfish he is and how he acts differently when he talks to her. He tells me that I will always be the good one and he the evil one. He said I see it that way. I have never said that. Ever. I don't think I ever thought that. Matter of fact, I have always said the bad things happen to good people. I don't remember what was said next but I remember saying that I would never hurt him like that. So, yes, if that is how he sees it, I will be the good one.
We both got really quiet and I started to fall asleep when he said "What do you do for me" I said what? He said what do you do special for me? He then goes on to say, you know my boss was coming in on Monday and did you ask if I had clean clothes to wear? I was blown away. Matter of fact I did ask and he said he did. But come Monday morning, he didn't like those clothes that he chose. But, he was looking for something to throw out there to make me feel guilty. He kept saying what did I do special for him. I couldn't think of anything. He says that he lets me do anything I want. He lets me stay home, buys me anything I want...etc. etc...
It worked. Everything he said has torn me down......I feel like a piece of sh$t today. Ihave been up most of the night and can't find anything good about me right now. I see what is happening. I don't like it but I don't know what to do about it either. I don't know how to break this pattern.
I haven't gotten up enough nerve to call a therapist....it makes me feel like I have failed. And really I have...I have failed everyone is my family. Everyone.

Laura

Any continued communication with OW is a continuation of the affair. There is no other way to look at it.

Therapy does not mean you have failed - it means you are willing to have someone help you find clarity in your life.

Manipulator.

I don't like to call people names, so I'm not calling him one, but I'm suggesting you may want to look at that word. My H is a master manipulator. He can pull any discussion that begins about him into it being what I didn't do for him or to him or touch him or whatever. He can take a conversation and manipulate it to his advantage. It is hard to even see it sometimes Laura, and there have been times when I sit back and think, "How the heck did it get to me and not doing ____ or that I said this wrong - how did it become about me???"

I know that you are struggling with how to do change what is happening. Only you can do that sweetie.

Boundaries are set by you-enforced by you-and he has to deal with it.
Boundaries are not discussed.
He has no say on what your boundaries are.

Take care



Denise

"Our lives begin to end when we become silent about things"

Laura,

Your H is the guilty one here. He is guilty of continuing to have an EA, and he is guilty of manipulating the situation, so that you feel guilty and he feels justified.

Let's turn this around. So your H "lets" you stay home, be a full-time mom, without any kind of financial renumeration for your efforts, berates you for not working because you are staying home, that seems to me goofing off. He "lets" you be the primary caretaker for your children (so he doesn't have to bother being involved more than superficially), he "lets" you have material things that HE thinks you want, so that he doesn't have to give of himself to you (much more work than simply paying a bill), he "lets" you think you have done whatever he wants you to do and then turns his words to blame you for being a failure.

My questions are "What does he give of himself to you?" and "How does he show you he truly loves you?"

Seems to me the answer should be that he stops having his A, works on himself and your marriage.

Just my fairy cents' worth and huge comforting fairy hugs,

ff

You are NOT wrong here, Laura. Your H is!!!!

Fairyfriend,

This is why this is so hard...he balances everything....he is there for the kids...they are doing something together all of the time....he helps them with their homework, plays games with them....we have family nights....and I, and the kids, can see that he loves doing it.
He is always at home...the only time he goes out is to play Texas Hold'em (I always know he is there-he brings things home and usually wins the pot)or he golfs with work buddies. That is about it. We,me and him, are always together. We love to go shopping, vacation, we are always doing something together. and he likes it. We like being together. Even if it is just sitting in our chairs.
He buys me things that I like. Sometimes I feel it is out of guilt but most times he just buys me what I have said something about. I know when it is a guilty buy.

That is why this is so hard. he really does do everything. He gives me massages, rubs my feet, tells me he loves me several times a day and without me saying it first. He gives me a kiss when he leaves for work each day and when he comes home every night. We laugh and joke around. And he is usually there for me when I need him emotionally-although that is the part that I know that has changed a little.

I don't understand why she is so important to him. Why, if he knows how much it has hurt me, would he keep it up? Everything is pretty good except for the part about talking to her. And he knows this. Why he would jeapordise things is beyond me.


Laura

Ami,

So what do I do? I really need to know. If I don't have control over it then how does it stop? If I set boundaries, isn't that the same thing as having control? Either he crosses those boundaries and finds out what happens next, or he doesn't and things are fine...either way, it seems like I have the upper hand in it. I call it controlling.

One thing I have learned thru all of this is that I am no different than anyone else here. Maybe a little more off the wall than most but no better. I am afraid of going and finding out the truth. I'm afraid of so many things right now. I have made some huge improvements to who I am but not anywhere near knowing who I am.
I surely don't judge people. I have come to find out this place is a safe place. The only place where I can come and tell my feelings to. To let out many things that I have trouble talking about. and that has just recently started. Before I wished for things to happen the way I wrote them. Now I write what I feel at that moment. It helps take some of the pain away at that moment.

I'm just trying to understand all of this.

Laura

Laura,

I encourage you to seek therapy.. I used to be afraid that the IC would tell me I was awful, and that the A's my H had were all my fault..

IC has been a life saving tool for me.. it helps me cope with issues that are part of my H's personality that would drive me crazy and make me feel guilty because I didn't or couldn't keep up with his energy level..

Laura, no one is saying that your H is terrible or bad...he has learned that he can manipulate people to do what he wants them to do.. it works for many men in the business world.

NOW about his asking you.. what do you do for him... Laura you keep " his" houseclean do the laundry, shop for food, prepare meals.. do things that he likes to do..you listen to him.. etc.. you are there.. faithfully everyday.. you do a lots.. specially for him because you created a home together.

Talking to the OW makes him feel wonderful because he is told what a wonderful H he is,because he took the garbage out or played with the children or bought you a gift.. he is told what a good person he is when he complains about a boss.. he is addicted to hearing her tell him he is superman..

As everyone says please call an IC it will help you with dealing with your H, and helping you set boundaries and keeping them..

(((hugs)))

Pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Laura,

My question is WHY? Why does your H do all the things he does? Does he do them because he loves his family, and doing those actions are a way for him to show his love? Or does he do them because doing them is a way he feels good about himself? Or does he do them, so that when/if he behaves in inappropriate ways he can justify his bad actions by saying they are offset by his positive actions?

Regardless of how much he does, cheating is unacceptable. Period. No ands, ifs, or buts. I don't give a hairy rat's ass how much he does for you. If he is cheating, NOTHING he does for you can make up for cheating on you.

I am sorry you are hurting, and I am sorry he is manipulating you. It is your job to uphold YOUR boundaries, to reject his arguments, to stand up for yourself.

I am also wondering if you have told OW's H yet. I have the feeling he wouldn't be so quick to tolerate his WS continuing behavior.

Just my fairy cents' worth and a huge hug,

ff

It's also possible your H is telling himself that because they are not sleeping together (anymore?) then it's not a true affair. Then he can justify it, even though it is an EA. Has he read the book Not Just Friends? I can't remember you saying if he has or not. Not offering excuses for his poor choices, because in previous posts I've already voiced what I think his MO is, but wanted to offer that up as part of his foggy thinking/justifying. Society is so quick to excuse crossing of boundaries, and has so few boundaries anyway, that it's easy to look outward and justify this as "just a friendship". Then he can make it your problem, and not his.

Sun

Taking control is about forcing another to do what you want them to do (aka your H)

Setting boundaries is establishing what you can no longer tolerate for YOU. You aren't controlling another's actions, they can do what they wish, however you have set out the parameters of what you will and will not put up with.

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

I encourage you to seek counselling. He is manipulating you, as others have said. Fear is a 4 letter word, that's it. It will only control you if you let it.

The one thing you should be very afraid of is remaining in this downward spiral for the rest of your life and never breaking out of the pattern.

So what do I do? I really need to know. If I don't have control over it then how does it stop? If I set boundaries, isn't that the same thing as having control? Either he crosses those boundaries and finds out what happens next, or he doesn't and things are fine...either way, it seems like I have the upper hand in it. I call it controlling

I've been away for a while, due to life, but I'm going to presume that this is the same Laura who has had trouble in the past with her husband, saying everything is hunky-dory and then coming back and venting about what he has done?

Laura, my two cents. You have children, you set boundaries for them and if they cross those boundaries, then there is a consequence. What makes him any different???? Apparently from his ongoing behavior, he isn't mature enough to self-monitor his actions. A MATURE adult would stop the painful, hurtful and MANIPULATIVE actions that send you into a tailspin. A MATURE adult would try to repair the damage done by the original affair. A MATURE adult would make sure that he was ABOVE reproach when it came to this topic so that his spouse wouldn't be in a constant state of agony/crisis. From what I have read over the past two years you've been here (if I have the right Laura) he is 1. not an adult, 2. not mature and 3. doesn't frankly "give a d*** my dear (to borrow Rhett Butler's words)".

You start out this particular post with the question of "What do I do????". Well, I would set forth new boundaries and STICK TO THEM. STICK to your guns if/when he crosses those boundaries. SHOW him what the consequences are when he sticks that little toe over the line. I once told my oldest son that EVERYTHING we do in life has a consequence, whether good or bad. Your WH NEEDS to know the same, there will be consequences for continuing the affair. However, Laura, YOU need to stop allowing him to make you feel guilty. I do not believe that ANYONE can make you feel guilty UNLESS YOU allow them to. I'm sorry, that is just how I feel. You can control the emotions you feel when he tries to "buy" your love. His rationale is that if he does all these wonderful things for you, then you're not going to mind him continuing to see/talk/meet with OW. You need to change that way of thinking in your head and show him the error of his ways. If he refuses to correct this behavior, then you are left with no choice but to dole out the consequence, whatever you have chosen beforehand. As a parent, you don't tell your child to not run into the street or else something will happen to them and then not follow through when he/she runs into the street. By running into the street, your child runs the risk of getting injured/killed. Well, the same is true for your husband. If he chooses to "run" into the "street" then he is going to risk injuring/killing your marriage/trust. Whether physical, mental, or emotional, the consequences of him stepping over that line in the sand will damage the marriage.

Personally, I see him as daring you to do something and the more you say that you will but don't follow through, the bolder he is going to get. He will continue to walk all over you until you stand firm in your boundaries. You cannot let him run roughshod all over you or else he will NEVER respect you (which he already doesn't from his blatant disregard to your feelings).

Anyway, this is my opinion. I hope what I have said makes sense to you.

Take care and stay strong,

DH

Dear Laura

Are your H and mine twins? For three years I heard all the same arguments and had the same guilt laid on me. They were only friends, he didn't see why I needed to know about their conversations, it wasn't my business, I was always so angry with him and at least she liked him, I was abusing him, he had the right to be treated with respect, why couldn't I see the effort he was putting into making our marriage work, why couldn't I give him credit for having changed, it wasn't about her, it was about us, he knew what was best to fix things. Etc etc. Exploiting my lack of self-worth and shame that I had let this happen in our marriage, manipulating me into accepting his way.

I felt she had a strong hold on him, that the romance they shared must have been way beyond ours, that he was making a huge sacrifice in staying with me instead of going to her. And he made the most of it. Even though he said it wasn't about her, each time I found out they'd been in contact it seemed like he was closer to her than me.

I kept saying he should go to her, but of course that wasn't what he wanted. He really did want to stay with me; he just couldn't give up his addiction to "her". In fact it was an obsession with getting her to let him go without him being the bad guy. He truly didn't want her, but he did want her to think well of him. She was playing the guilt trip on him: you told me you loved me, why do you have to be so mean to me, things with my H just aren't the same since I have known you, you always said you'd be there for me forever. He felt he was being attacked on both sides, and it was easier to give in to her than me.

Laura, your H is still in the fog, just like mine was. He hasn't yet accepted his full responsibility for the A and he is not yet ready to let go. He is a cakeman and until he recognises that and really wants to atone to you he will not change.

I have said to my H, "If you hadn't had the excuse to be in contact with her because of the project, would you have let her go?" He says unequivocally that keeping contact kept the A alive and that if there had been no contact he would have been able to let it slide away. But they did talk, she did make him feel bad and to compensate he kept initiating contact and ended up in bed with her again.

Maybe your H thinks he is stronger than that, but seems to me he is very much on the fence, letting you run around after him because you feel guilty but at the same time unable to fully acknowledge his part in all this. Maybe there is nothing you can do; you have to make your own choices. I know each D-day I could see enough in my H to make me hope that things would come good, but each time I got stronger and more cynical. The continued infidelity means that our marriage is different; I am much more in control now than after D-day#1.

So I don't have any advice for you - you know I went the same path as you and even when I thought I had set boundaries my H took no notice, just went further underground. What you can do is decide on what terms you will continue the marriage. Can you accept their continued contact; is there enough for you in this relationship to live with the ongoing risk that the A will become physical again, or that one day he will decide to go with her? If not, you just have to make your ultimatum and be prepared to carry it through. It's up to you, not him, whether you accept his behaviour. THE A IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

Big hugs

Liz