I may get kicked off... I'm not too sure about being here, but I guess I don't feel like I am breaking any rules of the website because it said this is for all parties hurt by an affair. I don't expect any responses, I guess I just wanted to start off this email by saying this isnt to hurt anyone here or feel better about myself... just understanding.
I just wanted to get an idea of the wifes point of view (as I am the other woman). I dont know (I'll call him C)... so I dont know C's wife, but I think about her a lot. My affair has gone on for about a year and a half and it has been one of the hardest times of my life. I don't think I am the victim, but that doesn't mean it doesnt hurt. I have lost friends, self respect, so much of who I am and he doesn't see. He doesn't understand that I give him everything and he cant do that... I feel so alone. However, it is hard to leave someone you love with all of your heart... even if it is the best thing for everyone involved. This affair isnt something either one of us pursued, it was a mistake that neither one of us seem to be able to end.
He has been married for 17 years (about) and they have two kids. He said that he couldn't end our affair and it would probably end with his wife finding out. It may be any time now (or maybe I am just paranoid). I don't know how she doesn't know, or maybe she is choosing to be blind to it.
I guess my story really doesn't matter, I wanted to know peoples opinions about the other woman. Are we hated, blamed, maybe understood, do we get much thought at all. I have read several posts here and I just couldn't get a good feel so I just thought I would directly ask. And really... if it makes any difference at all... I'm not oblivious to the pain I'm causing... I really don't like myself and this isnt where I thought I would be... but I love him and I will be there for him as long as he wants me.
The first step to fixing a problem is to acknowledge it. You've made that first step.
Alot of the answer to your question depends on how far from the affair we are. It's been 5 years now since I seperated from my exH so I have had some time to think and the wounds have healed a bit.
As along as both of you are in the picture he is getting all the cake, eating it too and you both aren't getting 100% of him. How can you work on a marriage with a third person in the mix?
Lots of spouses live in denial about affairs. Sure we see the signs, but it is very hard to acknowledge that the person that you love and trust enough to say wedding vows could hurt you that deeply.
And I can tell you that when (notice I didn't say if) we find out it is a very devastating blow. Around here we equate it with a nuclear explosion. But being a betrayed spouse (BS) myself I would rather have found out than not. There will be alot of anger, and yes it is probable that the wife will hate you.
Not only did I lose my H because of the affair, I also lost health and gained herpes. I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I was on anti depressants for years. Affairs cause so much damage to all parties involved including families and children.
You say you think about C's wife alot, I'm wondering if you also think of the children.
What you need to do is to realize and acknowledge the pain you are causing to everybody involved (inlaws, children, spouse, friends) and to get help to end this. I think you have made some baby steps by coming here. Not having self respect should be a warning flag. Is this affair really worth losing that? You deserve somebody that is devoted to only you, a person who is there on your birthdays, anniversaries, holidays etc. A good relationship should make you proud, happy and should not be something you have to hide from your friends and family.
Affairs are alot like an addiction. I really do recommend that you stop all contact with this person immediately and start working on rebuilding your life, your self esteem and your self respect so that you can find happiness with the guy waiting out there that is the right one for you. <somebody single and available>
So here is my take. My H had an affair for 4.5 years with a married woman. They both told each other that their rleationship was special, that they were "in love" with each other but only "loved" their spouses. They said they wre soulmates. They shared special secret words, songs, memories, photographs, books. They exchanged rings and promised to be there for each other forever. Both said they would leave the spouse for the affair partner, but somehow they never did, and the excuse was that they couldn't do that to the children and when the children were independent it would be different. Does any of this sound familiar?
You should know that married men having affairs don't often leave their wives. The affair isn't about the other woman, it's about something lacking in the man, a need in him to validate himself. In my H's case, he had what should have been a one night stand at a point in his life when he was clinically depressed and felt very little for anyone, least of all himself. Instead of letting it go, the OW pursued him and made him feel responsible. My H has a huge need to be liked, to be the good guy, so he didn't feel that he could dump her. He played the role of tragic lover as an act - when he wasn't with her he took of the makeup and the spangled tights and became his real self, but for her he performed however was necessary to keep the fantasy going. She never knew what he is really like (although she thinks that I don't know him the way she does).
He spent 4.5 years waiting for her to let him go in a way that would salvage some dignity for both of them. And she never did. Eventually, after I had discovered their continuning association, he came out of the fog and was shocked/ashamed/embarrassed/disgusted with his behaviour. He was also very angry with her for not letting him go, and putting him in a position where I repeatedly caught him in contact with her. Now he doesn't want to hae anything to do with her. He wants to obliterate those 4.5 years from his memory. And this was the woman who was supposed to be his "once in 50 years love".
I don't hate her but I do despise what she did. I think she was pathetic and weak. She deceived her own husband, her children, her friends. She exploited her professional situation, using her professional phone, e-mail and conference times to be with my H (and he did too). I have no evidence that she is sorry for what she did to me and my H (I have lots of evidence that he is sorry), but I would not employ her - if you can cheat on your husband, why would you respect your employer?
You are not married, but you are hanging on to a dream which is unlikely to come to reality. He won't leave his wife. That's his safety valve - he is making it clear to you that his marriage is more important than his relationship with you, but he won't say this outright because it would destroy the fairytale world you two have created. You didn't ask for advice, just to know how we BW feel about the OW, but I'm going to give you some anyway. Leave him completely. Have no contact with him from now on. Yes, you may love him, but it is a dead-end love, going nowhere. If you leave now and cut him completely out of your life you have the chance to find someone available who will love you for yourself and not because you are an excape from reality. Please don't do this to yourself any more! You said it yourself - you have lost self-respect, you don't like yourself in this role. Get going girl - there is a life out there which does not involve a married man. Leave him for his sake as well as your own.
Don’t worry about responses, you are sure to get many, but I am sure most if not all of our members will be respectable. You have come here, olive branch extended, truly wishing to understand, I admire that greatly, I know it was not easy to do. Understanding and knowledge are great steps in healing.
As Kim has said, how the BS feels about the OW has a lot to do with how much time has gone by since the BS found out. I myself am 6+ years past the day I found out about the affair, so I can look at things with a clear head and pain free. Now, I see the OW with pity and nothing more, but this is not the way I saw here for a good 2+ years after finding out.
As Kim says, we all eventually do find out. So it is not an if, but a when. For most BS, the OP becomes someone that we obsess about continuously and what seems an unending source of immeasurable pain. I want to be honest with you, and not sugar coat it, because I think you genuinely wish to know, and that you “need” to know the true measure of the pain that infidelity causes the BS. Also as Kim says, it causes pain to the whole family, but we will stick to the BS, because this is what you asked.
Stepping back into that person I once was, all I can see is sorrow, hopelessness, and a pain so deep it hurt physically. Most of this is do to the betrayal of my husband, I honestly, like just about all BS’s, did not think he was capable of such a thing. When the BS first finds out it is like getting hit with a mac-truck that we didn’t even see coming. Initially, the OW becomes someone we compare every aspect of our being with. We instantly compete with them, even though the logical part of us knows we shouldn’t. What was she like in bed, did she do this, did she do that, are her, just fill in the blanks, better than mine? Did he tell her all of our secrets, how dare she think she even had a right to our personal lives. And on and on and on. I felt as if she had stolen my life, and indeed that is what she was doing even if it was not something she intended to do. This woman invaded my every waking and sleeping thoughts. I went to sleep obsessing about her, I dreamt about her, and she was my first painful thought upon waking in the morning. What a BS goes through in regards to thinking about the OW is no mere passing thought, it is an on going unreasonable mania. I am so glad that for me it is long over, and my heart breaks for those going through it now, and those I know that will be going through it.
I am not proud of this, but I created scenario after scenario of ways in which I would confront the OW. Sadly most of these scenario’s had to do with me causing her bodily harm. My best friend made promise her if I ever was to go to meet the OW, that I would bring her, my friend that is, with me. Although, I wanted to the very depths of my soul to cause this woman pain, either emotional or physical, what I wanted her to know more than anything in the world was that I was a real person, that I existed. You see, to the BS, affairs cause them to feel like nothing more than a piece of paper the OP and their spouse crumpled up and through away with out thought. So it is important to us that the OP know we are real people, with feelings, and that we love our spouses very much and in know way deserved this. Sigh… It amazes me how I can still get worked up about this. I am stepping down off of my soap box now, sorry for getting so worked up.
Youreyes, please, and I know that it will cost you greatly, stop seeing this man now. Find yourself a good counselor to help you through what is likely to be one of the hardest times of your life. As Kim says affairs are like an addiction, and they are extremely hard to break.
I wish you the best. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming her with a desire to understand.
Welcome to HH. I appreciate that you have come here for input.
There are NO winners in affairs, only losers. Take the pain, the loss of self-respect, the lonliness and all the other negative emotions you are feeling and magnify them at least 100 fold and you will get some sense of the pain your affair partner's wife will feel when she finds out. I'll bet that she is already hurting. A lot. How do I know this? Because during my H's 4 1/3 years long A, I hurt from his behaviors. I believed my H no longer loved me because he certainly didn't treat me or our daughters as though he loved us. He was cold, distant, angry (ofter way over the top in proportion to whatever offended him), unreasonable, demanding and otherwise a very unpleasant person to live with for most of the time. He was depressed and suffered from anxiety and low self-esteem.
Instead of working on himself and our marriage, my H chose to get involved with OW. Oh yes, like the others here have said, my H and OW were "in love" with each other. OW told him he was her soulmate--which was very interesting considering she was married and had had at least four affair partners prior to meeting my H. See, people having A think their love is special and precious, but really it is the farthest thing from love there is. An A is selfishness, complete and utter selfishness. You don't feel good about yourself because you are involved with another woman's husband--a man who has lied to you just as he has lied to his wife.
You do not deserve to be a victim of this man's lies anymore than his wife and family do, anymore than any of us here deserved the hurt our WS caused us by their lies. I know you didn't ask for advice, but I hope you will send him a no-contact letter and end this before you waste anymore of your life. You deserve to have a relationship built on love, selflessness, and truth, and you will NEVER find that in an A.
I know Peggy Vaughan has written about the OP at her website dearpeggy.com. I believe you can get some very helpful information from reading there.
Good luck. I hope you find some helpful answers here that can aid you in the hard times and difficult choices you face.
I wanted to talk a bit about what the BS goes through prior to finding out. Fairyfriend has touched on it a bit. You see, the WS goes into what we here have termed the Fog, when he/she is in the midst of an affair. The guilt over what they are doing becomes too much to bear, so they must justify and rationalize the affair in order to continue in it. The target then becomes the BS. Often they rewrite history, saying they haven't loved the BS for a long time, which is seldom true. Then there is the way they treat the BS, which is often with contempt. The poor BS is confused and does not know why they are treated so badly, but because they love their spouse and practice blind trust they fight the belief that he/she is involved with another. That nagging doubt continues though, because there are allot of signs. Then the BS feels terribly guilty for thinking such a thing and tries harder to please the spouse to prove to themselves that nothing is going on. Unfortunately, what the BS does is completely ignored or not even noticed by the WS, because they need to think of the BS as a bad spouse in order to fight off the guilt.
It is a painful cycle. I remember that my husband used to complain about the way I kissed him. He said I always pushed away first. No matter how I kissed him, it was never good enough. When we had sex, I say sex, because my husband was in no way making love to me, it was as if I could have been anyone. I can not tell you how much that hurt, I always felt dirty and used afterwards, but kept trying anyway to please him. There were moments, just snippets really, where his fog would clear a bit, I would see a glimpse of the man I married. Then the door would be slammed shut as he realized he was letting his guard down and me in. Lastly, there is the point that we can no longer ignore the signs and we endeavor to find out and we begin to snoop. Snooping is so painful, none of us wants to do it, it feels wrong but we must know. Then we find out and the world as we know it ends.
For me, my husbands infidelity has been the single most traumatic event of my life todate, and I am pushing 50 years old.
It's been 7 years since I found out and 5.5 since it ended and I hate her. It's not the kind of hate that sits and consumes me but I cannot think of a single kind description of this woman who would knowingly weasel in and try to break up a marriage and hurt the women/family/social network she didn't know and held in no value - all for her selfish gain.)
Nothing has ever hurt me more than this affair.
but because this is the Open board and people tread lightly on this board alot of answers will not be as blunt. (Did you ask for honesty?)
I suggest you got to the Healing board -- use the search feature and look for words like "Revenge" or "Hate OM" or "Hate OW" Look for posts that start out with "New Here" or "Just found out" and read about the kind of pain this causes.
there's alot of new, raw reaction on the Healing board, but it might be more honest than answers to a post in response to 'an extended olive branch' for 'understanding' although I do admire your curiosity.
Many betrayed spouses get tired of the hate and move on in time with their own need for peace. In some ways I have moved on alot. I no longer sit and imagine harmful, hurtful, revenge fantasies... she's not worth my time. What I feel though is alot stronger and more vile than just pity.
Unless directly faced with thinking of her, in a figurative sense, I just put it on the back shelf in the basement with other useless stuff waiting for the yard sale and don't look there often.
but now my curiosity -- how do you expect his wife with a lifetime invested, children, home, and dreams to feel about you?
This message has been edited by stillkickin on Jul 9, 2008 9:54 AM This message has been edited by stillkickin on Jul 9, 2008 9:53 AM
"Open board and people tread lightly on this board alot of answers will not be as blunt."
I don't tread lightly at all. I used to hate OW until in reflection I realized that it was my H who had the choice to say ya or nah and that the OW could have been anybody. He was filling a need inside himself and it was his selfish actions that put us in the midst of disaster. She was just the one that he happen to use to fulfill his needs.
As for the herpes, I place the responsibility for my health on him also as he was my H and it was his job to protect the one he loved. He also could have insisted on using a condom or asking questions about sexual health. He didn't to my knowledge. That would have spoiled the fantasy.
Initially I blamed OW. But as was already stated, it was my H who committed to me, not OW, so I don't really blame her anymore. Although I do wish she could emotionally hurt as much as I do.
I definately hate her. There was a time when I hated her so much I would have spit on her dying body, stepped over her and gone on with my day.
You ask if there is "maybe understanding". No I have no understanding or sympathy for OW. She is a grown woman who made choices.
Over the last few months I think I have just come to pity her. She is married with no kids. During a years time that my H and she were supposedly not in contact, she moved to the other side of the country with her H. My H & her were in phone/e-mail contact for another 1.5 years and I found out again. She and her H are now making plans to move to another country. She desperately wanted my H to leave me, but he wont, he will only commit to her if I divorce him. The last thing she supposedly said to him was "go f*** yourself".
How could I not pity someone who was willing to risk her marriage for a man that would absolutely not commit to her and only wanted her on his terms.
An affair is a fantasy for the married person. No responsibility like their "real" life entails. Everything is usually on their terms.
Get yourself out of that situation. It will not end on a happy note for you. Most men do not leave their wives for the OW and if they do they do not usually marry their affair partner and if they do 60% of all second marriages end in divorce. So what are the chances that you will end up with this man long term?
Lisa
I also wanted to add that my children found out that their father had a GF and were devastated. My oldest who was 10 at the time, told me and his therapist that he wished OW was dead.
This message has been edited by Lee66 on Jul 9, 2008 10:32 AM
“there's alot of new, raw reaction on the Healing board, but it might be more honest than answers to a post in response to 'an extended olive branch' for 'understanding'“
Excuse me, but my response to this thread was honest, and I do take some offense at the implication that it was not. Susan, just like you I hated the OW with a passion. I do hold her responsible for entering into a relationship with a married man, my husband knowingly, and causing a great deal of pain. Like Kim though, I also know that she could not do this unless my husband willingly let her do so. He is the final wall of protection to our relationship and he is totally responsible for our marriage. She could have been anyone, and spending more time than I have already spent on her, continuing to hate her serves no purpose at all. I do pity her, I also think of her as unimportant in the scheme of things. My husband and I have successfully reconciled. He has repented and paid dearly for his infidelity. What good would there be in harboring negative emotions to a person that is long out of my life.
I believe that a fair number of affairs happen because people do not construct safe boundaries against them. I think that in many cases the affair partners do not seek to have an affair, but that an emotional bond develops from a friendship. This doesn’t make them any less wrong than the ones that practice infidelity on a regular basis. Youreyes has come here for information, what we give her can help her to end the affair, which is what we all want for the BS that is presently suffering in that situation and in others like it. I respect her for coming her, even if I am horrified at her continued relationship with someone else’s husband. I sincerely wish to help her, for her, but also for the BS, and the family involved.
Ami
This message has been edited by Amistandingstill on Jul 9, 2008 10:25 AM
Thanks for posting. I hope that we are able to help you. You've taken a brave step, since a lot of what needs to be said to you isn't peaches and cream, but brussel sprouts and liver.
I have three words:
Conviction
Remorse
Repentance
Right now you are living a destructive life in this affair. I think you're aware of this, at least unconsciously, since you wrote "My affair has gone on for about a year and a half and it has been one of the hardest times of my life". The affair is destructive to you, to your OM, to his wife, to his family (both immediate and extended), and to society as a whole.
Since my wife's affair, I've spent some time thinking about why we have wedding ceremonies and why our government regulates them, why getting a divorce is harder than getting married, and so on. One conclusion that I've come to is that government regulates marriages because they are a fundamentally important part of creating a strong society. They are even more essential than a strong educational system and good 'infrastructure'. You might wonder what this has to do with you. Think about it... by your participation in this affair, you are a party to a crime against our society. You're raping a marriage, destroying a family, and breaking down a piece of our society. Sure, the OM/WS is also responsible, but you can't control his actions, only yours. Your actions, which you alone have control over, have been destructive.
However, you wrote "This affair isn’t something either one of us pursued, it was a mistake that neither one of us seem to be able to end." That's a statement that deflects your responsibility for the affair. One thing I know is that affairs can't happen unless someone initiates inappropriate talk, inappropriate touching, and inappropriate actions. They don't "just happen" because someone has to open up and share their adulterous desires with the object of those desires. They don't "just happen", because someone has to take off their clothes or they have to allow someone to them off for them. Then they have to actively engage in the act of intercourse. The point is that you need to take responsibility for your actions, because no one else can.
I've also worked to better understand "love". What it is, what we mean when we use the term, and what is "true love". I've come to the conclusion that a lot of what we talk about when we say thinks like "I'm in love", "I love you", "I love that", etc. is that we are saying "I want him/her/you/that." However, the true definition of love, I believe is that you seek what is best for the object of your love, even above you're own interest. A mother's true love seeks the best for her children even at her own expense. A brother's true love sacrifices for his sibling. A soldier's love for country allows him to lay his life down for his nation. However, the love of an affair isn't about self-sacrifice at all (even though you might claim, because of the hurt you've endured, that it is) The love of an affair is for self-satisfaction, and it doesn't seek what is best for the affair partner. I know that in my wife's affair, despite her "love" for the OM, she was not seeking what was best for him, nor was he seeking the best for her. If they were, then they would have encouraged each other to avoid the affair.
You wrote "However, it is hard to leave someone you love with all of your heart... even if it is the best thing for everyone involved." While there is a smidgen of love in that statement, the love you speak about is really your desire to have the OM for yourself, not you seeking what is best for his life.
All of this is to show you, to convince you, to "convict" you that you are responsible for doing something that you should not do anymore, not even for a moment. It's your responsibility to change that. You wrote, "He said that he couldn't end our affair." You can't give him any responsibly for ending the affair. It's yours and yours alone.
One of the things you'll need to do is establish a 100% no contact policy with the OM. If he works with you, you might need to work to find a way to break business contact with him as well. You could need to find a new job to affect that. It's important, because relationships like this need to be totally severed, for several reasons.
That's conviction, to know that what you are doing is fundamentally wrong.
Ending it is repentance. If you do end it, then you've repented.
Remorse is more difficult in your situation. I think you'll have to figure out exactly what it means to you, but it should include something along the lines of learning to live your life so not to be encouraging any other married man to seek an affair with you, to be aware of the signs of their attraction to you and to keep boundaries in place that prevent relationships from reaching that level of intimacy. It could mean that you make some amends to the betrayed spouse, although I wouldn't expect her to accept it with much gratitude.
When a whole community stands behind a marriage, and through it's laws says "This marriage is important to us, and we will protect it", they are also saying that they will respect it and honor it by not subjecting it to adultery. That's been your role, subjecting it to adultery.
I hope these words have been helpful to you. I've tried to be direct, but not attacking. I hope that you end this relationship right now, and share with us your progress in recovery.
Youreyes I first want to welcome you to our place of healing. You are most welcome here. We all appreciate your honesty and our answers will be just as honest and respectful.
As my friends before have said we all come here with different years. It was 8 years ago that I learned the life of my life to whom I had been married 30 years betrayed me. He had FOUR affairs over our marraige. All for sex. None of the women meant anything to him UNTIL he slept with them. Then he " fell in love with each one of them" or so he told them, and at times even thought. Meanwhile coming home to me and the kids.
I thought we had a perfect marraige. Oh sure, he had problems, I even thought he was depressed poor baby. What I didn't know was he was self medicating.. or with who, doing what.
It turns out all these different women who were willng to have sex with a married man made him feel like a big shot. Special was the word he used. I call him a special idiot.
Eventually I figured it all out. I told him he could rot in hell. And I meant it with all my heart.
Imagine the one person you love more than life itself, killing you and your children. That is what it felt like on my good days.
When I read your post I cried. Cause even 8 years later the pain still lives. I have learned to accept what happened. I have buried the agony somewhere in my heart. I will never forget.
We are together. He has done EVERYTHING right for the last 8 years. He has earned my love and respect. He has told me every single detail, he has endured my hysterical torture. Our life was hell for years. I was a crazy raving lunatic who shook as she cried hysterically. I was dying. As a result of all this horror I now have health problems, as do many of us. The toll is unimaginable. And for what? For my H to have sex with ANY BODY.
Youreyesonly, you may THINK you are in love. But does love betray, lie and cheat? Doesn't love want what is BEST for the beloved? Sex makes men think they are in love, and women trade sex for love. No wonder your self esteem is lost. Is this all you are worth? A man who visits you in his spare time? A man who IS sleeping with his wife and you. NO matter what he tells you the sex IS going on at home, the difference is she doesn't know about you.
One of the women told my h she needed to end it, cause much as she loved him she needed a real relatiosnhip. He said fine and wished her well.
Another was married and he got bored with her after 7 years.
Then there was the one I figured out. She was an old ugly hag who was grateful that a man was willing to buy her things and love her in any way she offered.
The first lasted for as long as the business trip.
None of these were love, but both the women and my H thought they were in love. He told me so. It was when he confessed all to me that he realized loosing me would kill him. That all he wanted was to spend the rest of his life earning my forgiveness.
It has been 8 years, he has NOT earned my forgiveness, but he has earned my understanding, respect and acceptance. We are very much in love, always have been. Our bond is NOT our children it is the hell we have survived. Our children are part of us, but they were not what kept us together.
My daughter wanted me to throw the bum out. My son couldn't even look at his father. It was a family in agony.
So you ask what we think of the other women. What would you think of a sister woman who would hurt ANYONE like this?
You, however came here seeking understanding. This is a place of healing and I offer you compassion.
Do not give this cake eater anymore of your soul. You are worth so much more. You deserve to be in a full relationship based on honesty and love. Not being with a man who gives you crumbs and comes for sex and tells you he loves you. If he left his wife for you, can you trust him not to leave you for the next pretty face? Will you ever have an honest loving relationship with him? Is he all you are worth?
Please keep writing to us. We do care. The FORMER betrayers on this board are the ones who helped me to learn, grow and love again. It was their honesty and their stories that repeated my H's own words many many times. My friendship grew with them because they were brutally honest with me. I grew over the 8 years to think of them as family. Several whom I have had the honor of corresponding with, talking to and even meeting. They are people I owe my life and sanity to. They are the sisters and brothers of my heart. I love them because they gave me back to me. They taught me to love again, myself, my husband and them. It is that unending gratitude that causes me to reach out to you and beg you to seriously think about YOUR life and what you are loosing. Your sanity, your soul, your health your future, you deserve all you give in life. Think about how you feel about yourself. Think about what you would like to feel about yourself. How can you work to be the person you deserve? Right now you are the other woman, is this the best you can be in life? If not, what do you need to do to make you proud of you.
El
PS I also want to add that the people who have written to you have said all I wanted to say. They have written with honesty from their hearts. Please know writing here was not easy for any of us. We have all been through a lot, but through honesty we have all grown. I hope you too will continue to grow through honesty.We look forward to hearing from you.
I've been an OW in a previous marriage. I am the betrayed spouse now. All I can say is that your story feels unique to you but its the story of most affairs. You see it from your vantage point. It's very hard to grasp the pain of the BS until you are there yourself. You are responsible for your actions in your affair - it's your body, your heart, your life, your affair, your actions. In the end I learnt that someone else cannot be the price tag for my actions. My actions as the other woman never helped someone to act and love at their best - he acted with deceit and betrayal. Ask and expect more from your self.
There aren't many books for women in your situation - there is one - Will he leave her for me? written by a professional counsellor who is compassionate towards all parties in her writing.
You posted in the right area and though you may feel awkward about posting, everyone here will post honestly on their feelings. You've taken the first step in acknowledging that you have done something wrong, that is good. You now need to disentangle yourself from your OM. I know it isn't easy to do, as I was a WS myself, but there isn't any "happily ever after" scenario that will come from your continuous association with this man. It will end poorly for you, for him, for his wife and his children. No one here will tell you what to do but we will ALL encourgage you to end your affair NOW! HH is open to everyone who finds themselves in this position---BS, WS and OP alike, however, the one thing that the board won't tolerate is a continuance on the affair. I hope you continue to seek answers and post here, as it is a wonderful place to get information on, but in your post you stated that you would continue to be with C and that isn't right.
If you seek answers from here, please know that the board members will ask you the tough questions. I know that the first time I came here, I wasn't ready to listen and I perceived some of the comments made as an assault. I know better now, but for someone new to have some things said to them, it can look like they're being attacked. Please know that no one is attacking you, just trying to show you the light. Someone previously posted about the WS being in a "fog", you may be in this "fog" as well right now. It isn't until the fog clears that you will see the wrongness of this affair.
I hope you continue to post here and that we can help you out.
Just want to say welcome.. I am sorry that you are hurting.
You will find a lot of help here .. when you are ready to let go and begin the journey back to liking yourself.
You asked..
Do I hate OW.. big question.. but the truth now is that she is nothing to me.. I hated her after D-day.. surge of hate, anger..all emotion for her instead of my H.. those emotions were for H but not as intense because I had to decide whether to stay or leave H.
The A for my H filled a void that he needed. he needed OW to tell him he was special, wonderful etc.. I told him that too but he didn't hear me.. the A was special because it was a secret that they shared.. they had fun, no responsibility..he paid for her new car, bought her jewelry.. she needed him for money.. they both used each other.. what they did was hurt me to the core..lots of emotions can surface.. thinking about my H's A.. but the emotions are muted by time .
I can only pray that you will see the road open to you. Life is short and you deserve to have a loving healthy open relationship..
((((hugs))))
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
Don't kid yourself that his wife probably already knows but is turning a blind eye. I think some affair partners tell themselves that as a way to justify what they are doing. The fact is most betrayed spouses are completely blindsided by the discovery that their partner is having an affair. They may know something isn't right but the idea that their partner is cheating on them is the furthest thing from their mind. But she's going to find out sooner or later and it's going to blow her world apart. Until then, the man you are involved with wants it all – the adoration of his wife and family, and all the best you have to offer him without giving anything in return. If he had any integrity at all, he would break things off with one of you. Instead he's going to lie to everyone until the truth comes out. You can bet it won't come from him, though; he's too much of a coward to be honest with his wife. He's just going to wait, with little or no concern for her feelings, until she "finds out." And he has told you when that happens, your affair is going to end. Maybe you believe she'll kick him out and then the two of you can be together. That's not likely to happen. Most likely, when his wife finds out, he will beg her to forgive him. He will tell her he's sorry and he doesn't know what he was thinking or why he would risk losing her over someone like you. He will talk to her about you, and he probably won't be kind. Think about it – all the intimate little secrets of your relationship will be revealed to her. All the private moments between the two of you will be shared with her as she tries to make sense of the puzzle that her life has suddenly become. He will describe your physical attributes in detail (if she asks, and she probably will) and he will tell her what you did to him and what he did to you. If she asks him to, he will compare the two of you, and guess who's going to come out looking better. And he will tell her it "was just sex." He will become the perfect husband as he tries to regain her trust and prove to her that she is the most important person in the world to him. Believe it or not, because of you, he and his wife may ultimately become closer. And what will happen to you? If you're lucky, he'll break off contact completely and you'll never hear from him again. If you're not lucky, he'll become a better liar to both you and his wife and he'll continue trying to have the best of both worlds. .
You asked about the betrayed spouse's feelings toward the other woman. In my case, I felt very little toward them (my husband had multiple affairs). I certainly didn't blame them. I knew my husband was charming, and intelligent, and nice looking, and I understood why a woman would be attracted to him. But he was a married man, and it was his responsibility to protect our marriage. As far as I'm concerned the blame is ENTIRELY his. Those women were looking for love and thought they found it in the arms of am "unhappily" married man. But for him, I believe it was much less about the women as people, and much more about what they did for him and his feelings about himself. As far as I know, he never lied to any of them about being a married man, so the women were either amoral or completely lacking in self-esteem – most likely the latter. Shortly after the last d-day, I read some of the correspondence between my husband and the current OW. It was clear that she was in love with him and she thought they were going to have a life together. I actually found myself feeling compassion for her. She was very young and living in a fantasy world created by my husband. She had no idea what she had gotten herself into or how badly it was going to end for her.
Just like you, and just like C's wife, I loved a man who wasn't capable of loving me back the way I wanted/needed/deserved to be loved. I'm divorced now and, to my knowledge, he is not currently in a relationship with any of the women he betrayed me with during our marriage. And that outcome is not the exception, it's the rule. Very few adulterers end up in a permanent relationship with an affair partner. Ask yourself how you could ever trust this man who cheated on his wife and deceived her for months, if not years. Why would you think it would be different with you? At one point my husband was cheating on the woman he was cheating on me with. Do you know that you're the only one? How will you ever be sure?
You have the power to end this. Take that power and use it before it's too late; before he comes to you and says, "My wife knows and we're going to stay together." Be the one to end this. Until you do, you are a prop in someone else's life. Is that what you want? You say you aren't oblivious to the pain you are causing, but you seem to be oblivious to the pain you are causing yourself. You say you don't like yourself but will continue with him for as long as he wants you. That's pretty self-destructive. There is not going to be a good ending to this. You will never find peace and contentment in your life as long as you are involved with another woman's husband. He belongs to someone else and you deserve better. Please don't wait for him to end it. Take control and take back your life. Put your energy into something that makes you feel proud of yourself. Stay far away from anyone who asks you to sneak around and betray your own sense of what is right and wrong.
I am sure that the wife knows. It's that gut feeling that tells you something is off. Your just not sure what it is. To me the worse thing is how it affects the kids. Hurt me, but not my kids.
Honey, there is something, so broken in you...and him..this is what you need to focus on and explore. I could expand on this thought, but, honestly, this is what it boils down to.
You dont feel on some level conscious or not that u deserve better. It's gotten all jacked up for you....confusing.
I can only add that I feel your pain and understand the love you feel - My advice is to open up your love to a wide net and consider the bigger picture - At the same time put yourself into that bigger space and be kind to you too - Affairs happen and they happen a lot - And the outcome is plain to see in the big picture - But, we all have to learn our own ways - From the suffering can come great growth and transformation - Look at this in the big picture
I have to agree with a lot that has already been posted here by my fellow BS's and the WS's. I have gained a lot of good advice here, even when it was delivered with what we like to call a 2x4 (so brutally honest it feels like you have been hit with a 2x4)
My advice to you:
1. You need to honestly evaluate yourself. The question you need to ask yourself is how can you ask someone to love and respect you more than you love and respect yourself. IMHO you are very unhappy with the situation you are currently in and that it is having a devastating impact on your self-esteem, self-respect, and self-worth. You need to know (and believe) that you deserve better. You deserve to love and be loved by someone that will put you in first place, someone who will cherish and respect you openly and honestly. This will never happen until you find within yourself respect, esteem, and worth. These are things that may be enhanced by a loving partner, but another person can never be the source. These feelings about yourself have to come from within. Your current situation will never allow you to do this and is in fact destroying what self esteem, respect, and worth you have. A good therapist will be invaluable to you right now.
2. Do some research/browsing/reading on what makes a person cheat on their spouse. I did this when I was trying to understand why my H was cheating. I think if you do you may start seeing the person you are involved with described in the articles. I know that in reading up on the subject that there were common traits shown by most cheaters and sometimes it was as if they had done a character study on my H. Much of this is proven through research by qualified therapists throughout the years. Be very aware, that no matter how your current situtation turns out, that he will continue to cheat until he deals with the underlying issues that led him to cheat in the first place.
Empower yourself and take control of your life. Stand up for yourself. Be kind to yourself. Most of all never, ever, ever settle for second best with someone you love and as long as you are involved with someone else's spouse you will be second best.
“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”
" Are we hated, blamed, maybe understood, do we get much thought at all"
As today is D-Day+1 for me, the OM is very much thought about. The deepest recess of Hell isn't good enough for him.
My faith won't allow me to seek vengeance - but that's all the worse for him! Better he deal with me than an angry God.
He admitted to targeting my WS for his attentions, and while she bears her share of responsibility, he never bothered
to ask about her mental health... She had already attempted suicide, and was deeply depressed. Now she's tried twice,
our marriage has gone down in flames, and our family is torn to shreds. I go through the motions of daily life with no desire
to wake up each morning. I pray each night that it will be my last. The pain is unimaginable. I thought I understood before
this happened, but I didn't even have a clue. Does that make it clear enough ?
I don't hate the other person. Not my favourite person, you understand, but not really hate.
It was my wife who made a commitment to me, not the OM. I forgave him within weeks of finding out.
What you might not want to face upto is that the affair is about the WS. The OM or OW is almost always replaceable. If it wasn't you it would be someone else.
I understand it must be hard for you when you're in love.
A few practical tips - you will not stop what you are doing so lets make it better all round. Think about how to lessen the pain when his wife DOES find out. I'm sure others could add to the list but here goes:
1. Avoid screwing at her house if you can help it
2. Don't accept the same love tokens his wife receives
3. Don't go to the same restaurants he used to take his wife to
Above all, keep your relationship distinct from the marriage. That way, it lessens the hurt a bit for her.
I think that we should give youreyes the benefit of the doubt. She came here for a reason and she knows what she is doing is wrong. We should support her in trying to end the affair by giving her useful information, resources and our experiences, not encourage it to continue by creating a list of what to do to make it easier for the spouse when it is discovered.
Thanks
Kid
This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Jul 11, 2008 11:42 AM This message has been edited by Canuck_Kid on Jul 11, 2008 10:22 AM
The initial quote "I love him and I will be there for him as long as he wants me." suggests she is commited. That being the case, anything to lessen the hurt which will come later is maybe the lesser of two evils.
I know I'd have felt a lot better if SOME consideration had been given.
I know this thread was addressed to the BS but as a FWS it caused me to re-evaluate myself so I found it helpful for my continued journey of healing. I respect your honesty and hope you continue to post. I know that you are getting honest responses so hope they help you find what you are searching for to rebuild your self worth.
Sam,
I am not a BS, however I do not see how any list can help minimize the pain that is caused by an affair. As a FWS, the list suggests ways to accommodate an affair.
Rett
This message has been edited by Rett on Jul 11, 2008 12:29 PM
I am sorry I have not responded sooner. Honestly I was afraid to look at your responses. I do want honesty... coming here I wouldn't expect to be lied to and told it was all ok. I know it isn't all ok. I didn't come here because there were problems between me and C. I came here because it is getting harder and harder not to think about his family. If we are being honest... part of it is his wife... but as kid asked... yes I mostly think about his kids. I know what it is like to go through that. I know what it is like to move past that and be happy that my father found the person that made him happy.
I have not finished reading all of your responses... so I am going to continue to do that.. I just wanted to let you know I didn't post and run. I do want to know the other side of things and I want like hell to understand what he is telling her... how she feels.
I have no illusions of him leaving her for me. He told me he wouldn't and I believe him. That isn't an issue. I am happy with his love... I wish it could be more... but I'm not willing to push away my best friend. Not yet.
Thank you for your honesty.
"1. Avoid screwing at her house if you can help it
2. Don't accept the same love tokens his wife receives
3. Don't go to the same restaurants he used to take his wife to"
I would like to address this. Oh I would never... I went over his house once... we didn't even touch... both of us agreed to never never do that again. The other two arent issues... as this is a long distance thing and we have our own places... and anything he has given me have been things he knew I would love (stuffed elephant cause they are my favorite animals and ballet tickets I had wanted forever). I won't sleep with him w/in weeks of when he was with her and I told him it was over if he slept w/ her after he had been w/ me... I dont know why that freaks me out so much. Its not an issue as I know (and I really do know) they only have sex about 6 times a year.
These aren't things I did to save hurt... but because it just felt weird. I don't think there is anything I can do to save hurt anymore except end it. Even then...
If I can add one more thing... a random realization I had about myself after 4 drinks. I have NEVER been in trouble... not a detention not a grounding... I got a pink note in 2nd grade for going past the big tree on the playground and I cried so hard. This is the most... hurtful and dangerous thing I have ever done. I guess it makes me feel like I'm in second grade holding a pink slip again and crying. Only this time its not just about me.
This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 1:59 AM This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 1:52 AM This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 1:48 AM This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 12:32 AM
OK... I have read your posts and I was going to edit what I had said before... but I decided not to and just to add onto it.
I dont know where to start... thank you guys again... some of you for your support... all of you for your honesty. I know it can't be easy. I know that the hard times that an affair has caused for all of you is so much more than I am feeling. I have known that for a while. All of you have answered my question and given me more opinions than I asked for and I am thankful because there is so much I would like to know that I feel I don't have a right to ask.
I would like to know where I fit into his life... why I am in his life. So many of you have said she knows... and that is a big question of mine. Does she know? She has asked about me a few times and he did the whole "she is just a friend" thing. She hasn't asked in a year. He tries to be careful... but I still wonder if she doesn't want to know or if she really doesn't know. You guys have helped with that.
I have said that I have not been happy this past year. I haven't been, but not because of what he says or does to me. Because I found the man that I love and I know I can never be with him. There is a spark there that I have never felt before. A connection that I have never experienced. I am not forcing him to be here... I have ended this several times for him. He calls me crying asking where I am who I am with how can I do this to him if I really love him. All that crap isn't why I continue to go back to him... but because despite what a lot of you think it is real love. I have no doubts about that. I have given him the choice about this relationship and he told me he isnt ready to let me go yet. I also told him that the choice is his as long as I am OK being in this relationship.
There are times when I am not ok. He has helped me through so much. The pain of knowing I will never share a life with the man I love with all my heart has led me to some very hard depressions. I have done a lot of things to myself to hurt myself and he has been there to pick me up every time. He has been my hero. He is always there. I will spare you the rest of my story because I don't think it helps you and I didn't come here to get sympathy... I share what I do because I'm just an idiot and I think if you understand his wife will.
I know this isn't unique. I have been to many of the forums for other women. I have seen women who think its ok to get pregnant to get what they want and I have seen women who have known their married man for their whole lives and they really are soul mates. I feel somewhere in between. Our love is real, but I know he still loves his wife... I just don't know which one of us he is in love with. I keep rambling. Too much beer for the night I guess.
I want to take all of your advice and walk away... the reason I didn't ask is because I knew that would be your response and I knew I couldnt do it. Not now... I am just not ready. I will someday... someday soon... but I won't tell you it will be now because that would be a lie. I may add more later. If you have anymore comments/advice/venting/answers please feel free to tell me.
I also wanted to know... and this is me and my hypotheticals... if she finds out and contacts me... what is the consensus of what I should say. I have heard people say they were worse off for knowing. If I can be kinda selfish... is there a way of handling that that would help my MM? I don't think its my place to tell her... that would be a betrayal of what I have promised MM too... if he is going to say anything to her it is up to him.
This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 1:36 AM This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 1:31 AM
You want to understand the other side? Sorry to be blunt but honestly, there is no way you will ever understand the other side unless you have experienced it. It is like having your guts ripped out and stepped on and then shoved back inside of you. And you call this man your best friend? Your best friend is someone who betrays his wife by having sex with you. Your best friend is an adulterer!!! Your best friend is someone elses HUSBAND. Your best friend has kids. And when the wife finds out, those children will suffer right along with her. I can tell you this first hand. My 8 year old is withdrawn...doesnt like to play with anyone and sleeps in my bed because he is afraid I will leave him too. My 13 year old daughter has to see a counselor because she cuts herself because her world fell apart (her words, not mine). Me, the betrayed wife....well, lets see...I see a therapist just to deal, I suffer from PTSD, anxiety attacks, and depression. I can't sleep, I can't eat, and have had thoughts of suicide. You have no idea how hard it is not to drive my car into a telephone pole when Im alone. I have also developed back and neck problems due to the stress and female problems. And that's just a small, tinly, little glimpse as to what it's like on the other side. I think you need to consider the fact that HE is not your best friend...he does not have YOUR best interest at heart. As a matter of fact he has no one's best interest at heart (especially not his wife and kids) except his own. He is a very selfish and self-centered man. In fact he is not a man. Real men do not cheat on their wives.
You may think his marriage was lacking or perhaps his wife is some sort of b_tch or just doesnt understand him or appreciate him. I can assure that most of the time that is not the case. My husband and I have been married for 19 years and I have done nothing to deserve to be cheated on. We have our own business. For 16 years I slaved in our business to help make it a success, me and my wayward husband, side by side. I bore three of his children in addition to that plus took care of everything at home. Little did I know as soon as me and the kids left work for the evening my husband was flirting and picking up on female customers behind my back and lying to me. After the business closed for the night he was off screwing one of them. Then he would come home to me and act like everything was just fine...never said there was a problem. How humilating it was when I found out to have to go back into my own business and show my face, knowing that the employees and some of the other customers knew that my husband was cheating on me! MY OWN BUSINESS...do you have any idea what that's like, to lose everything you worked so hard for, for 16 years because your husband is off screwing the customers?
To make a long strory short, over the last 7 years I have endured 4 D-Days, with two different OW's. My husband has decided after all that he has put me and the kids through that he would rather be single and party his brains out...and has made a "lifestyle" choice....yet tells me there is no need for a divorce, lol. We have now been spearted for 9 months and I am filing anyway. There have been two OW's that I know of , but I suspect there have been more...but I guess I will never know, nor will his current OW. As they say, if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you! And this is your best friend? How would you ever be able to trust him or believe a word that comes out of his mouth? Honey, you need to get some standards, set some boundaries, and get a new best friend! You can start by becoming your own best friend and dumping this man....by doing the right thing. You say you're not ready...will you ever be ready or is that just an excuse? The longer you wait the harder it gets. YOU DESERVE BETTER and so does his wife and kids.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
EDITED TO ADD: While I was responding I see that you have edited your post or added on....so some of what I have said may no longer make sense to you or others.
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jul 20, 2008 2:00 AM This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jul 20, 2008 1:58 AM
I know I will never understand how you feel... thats not what I meant really... more understand what your thinking... your perspective. I came here to help myself come back into reality and hopefully someday move on. I am sorry to hear about your story, it made me cry and it was really hard to hear.
All I can say is not every situation is the same. And to clarify what you think about what I think I know... C loves his wife. He still makes love to his wife. He has never said anything bad about her. I don't think anything bad about her... I have met her a few times and she is nice. Even after her suspicion of me she still asked to talk on the phone once when I was talking to C so she could tell me all the places I had to go see while I was living in the place I just moved to.
All marriages are different. I don't pretend that they have a loveless marriage... but I know for a fact he has asked her to go to counseling several times before he even met me. She refuses. He has tried to work on his problems in the marriage (which he blames himself for... years of ignoring her to finally see how distant he made her in their relationship). I don't think any of that is a reason for an affair. Neither one of us think his wife has anything to do with why this happened.
He is doing a bad thing... but he is a good man. He is a good man to me... and if in some alternate universe we end up together and he ends up cheating on me then thats just karma coming back to bite me in the @ss. I can't say I deserve better from anyone.
I would like to add to what I said by saying... even if the situation was different I expect the pain would be the same if his wife and kids found out. That was the hard part of reading your story. I know sometimes its hard to share... and you gave the insight I asked for... very painful insight. What you went through has made me really think about this... I can't give you more than that. Thank you.
This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 2:17 AM
The things you have done to yourself are due to his manipulations...he is not your hero! He is no ones' hero. He is your executioner...and you've handed him the ax! He is there to pick you up so he can keep using you. You need to save yourself and get out of this. He is not going to end it. You have given him way too much power.
I am sorry you are suffering so much. I can see you are very conflicted....and understandably so. Maybe this si something you need professional help in dealing with. Have you thought about seeing a councelor?
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
EDITED TO ADD: My husband has said the same things to me...that I did nothing wrong and I am not the cause of his cheating. He has also said that he has never said anything bad about me to the OW's. Somehow none of that make me feel any better. None of that changes the facts that my husband betrayed me...that my husband cheated one me and lied to me and destroyed my world. The worst part...he destroyed his childrens world for his own pleasure.
This message has been edited by SoCalGal on Jul 20, 2008 2:20 AM
Yes all the time. I just came to grad school (to get phd in chemistry... the one thing I'm very proud of now) and I need to get health insurance settled. Getting off my parents and getting on my own. Yes... if I hadn't mentioned I am much younger than MM...
Counseling I have thought of. I have been depressed off and on long before I met MM. Like your child... I started cutting myself after trouble with my parents marriage. They ended up getting divorced, and I was happy to see him go (for other reasons) but it was more the feeling of being alienated from the world. I started going to a therapist then and sometime in high school I stopped going to the therapist.
This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 2:23 AM This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 2:23 AM This message has been edited by youreyes on Jul 20, 2008 2:22 AM
