Once again I am coming to my Healing Hearts friends for advise, answers and opinions.
To recap - 2 1/2 years ago my husband confessed to multiple affairs during our 33 years of marriage. At the time he confessed he was involved with yet another woman.
He claims that with this woman, their relationship had not grown into a full-fledged affair. According to him, they were still in the infatuation stage - flirting with each other. He claims that there had not been any secret rendezvous, nor had they expressed their desires for each other. Just a whole lot of flirting. He did say that he was aware of what she was feeling for him and she knew what he felt for her.
This woman not only worked with my husband but she also went to our church. He would meet up with her every day at work and then again when we were at church.
(BTW, about 2-3 years into their relationship, she announced to him that she was getting a divorce from her husband. I have always wondered if that was prompted by the relationship that was happening between her and my husband).
After he told me about the affairs, he lost his job which meant he could no longer see her at work. Now he could only see her at church.
However, having confessed the affairs, he ended his relationship with her - so he was no longer connecting with her at church.
About 1-2 months went by and one Sunday while at church, she tried to connect with him. He ignored her. 2 days letter he received a card in the mail from her. Not a love letter, or a "thinking of you" - really there was no theme to the card at all. And that's just my point. I think the reason for the card was to make a connection with him in the hopes that the next time he saw her at church, he would have to speak to her, to thank her for the card. But that never happened. To my knowledge, he has not spoken to her since his last day at work.
8-9 months later, we have tickets to a Christmas concert. The company my husband used to work for as a box at this concert site. The box holds about 30 people. Remember, this gal works for the same company my husband used to work for. We have been going to these Christmas concerts for the last 6-7 years but she has never been there. Typically, we would see the same people in the box. Tho it did change from year to year. Without going into useless details, i know that this woman knew my husband and I would be there.
So here is my question - was she trying to make a final connection to him? I realize that no one but her can answer that question with 100% accuracy. I have always suspected that that was her motivation in being at that concert, but that might be unfair of me to think that. So i was wondering what your opinions are.
As you say, no-one can know for certain, but sure sounds to me like she is still fishing. I've only just found out about my OW's fishing expeditions (gifts, cards, texts) over the last few months, and so this sounds familiar. She's a very sad person. Might be best to share your suspicions with your husband so he is also alert to any other fishing expeditions and has thought through what to do if it is "by chance" like at this hospitality box.
Daisy
Just call me Elvira since I seem to have married Don Juan
This message has been edited by DaisyField on Oct 15, 2009 11:59 AM
Although I understand why you'd love to know what the OW is up to or what she is thinking, mere speculating only leads to crazy-making for you. Yeah, we've all been there, done that.
It seems that at this point the only focus should be between you and your H. You wrote that, "To my knowledge, he has not spoken to her since his last day at work." If that is true, and he has otherwise behaved in a manner showing that he is working on rebuilding the marriage and has no involvement with the OW, that is what speaks volumes.
Neither you nor your H can control the OW's behavior. Your H can only control his behavior, including any response (or non-response) to anything the OW does. If he is making the right choices, that is what it's about and her motivation will be of no consequence, because it will have no consequence.
Dear Daisy and Len,
Thanks so much for responding to my posting. I do value the opinions of the people here because more than opinions, they are talking from experience.
Len - i guess you have to understand crazy me. The reason why i posted this question was to help me let go of any erroneous thinking/ speculating i might have. I want to give people the beneifit of the doubt - yes, even the women my husband was involved with.
And btw - Daisy, you were right on when you said my husband and this women were in an EA. The affair had been going on for possibly 5 years. Of course, when i ask my husband, his answer is always the same - "I don't know, I don't remember". I have come to hate those 6 words.
The relationship took place not only at work, but also at church. My husband and this women tho, did not work in the same department. Infact, their jobs did not even cross paths. But everyday, he would go to her desk to flirt, chat, see her. And he did the same at church.
So back to Len - My husband has not told me the truth about his affairs. 2 1/2 years into this, he has done very little to help rebuild this marriage, specfically, my trust. He has left it to me to figure out what went on between him and his lovers. That's why i posted the question. Am i barking up the wrong tree on this? If i am, then most certainly, i want to let that go and move on.
Again, my point is that we've all made ourselves crazy speculating on this or that about our own OP.
The bottom line is what your WS does in response to anything the OW might do. If she is fishing, is he interested in taking the bait? That is a question for him, not for her. Based on your clarification, I can see why you might be speculating and wondering, because unless I read it wrong, you have no firm, clear indication that your H won't bite again at the lure. But this is something only he can answer for you.
Good luck in getting what you need from him...the truth and honest answers.
Len,
The way my husband has handled the disclosure of his affairs, has left me with putting the puzzle pieces together, without having the knowledge of what the picture is.
That's why I am wondering if this is a puzzle piece. If it isn't then i will throw it away.
Given that these incidents in question occured over 1 1/2 yrs ago, I am not sure that they have any real meaning in the puzzle anyway. The answers as to whether the OW was making some kind of last ditch efforts to distract your H away from you again...are really a couple of missing blue sky border pieces...and not part of the 'heart' of the puzzle. Yes, the full puzzle is technically incomplete without these 2 pieces, but does their absence really make any real difference in the picture? No.
I do understand your curiosity here. I really do because I, myself, have been curious about SO MANY things with my OW. But, does it really even matter what OW's intentions were behind the strange note and her unexpected attendance at the concert? What is of extreme significance, however, is your H's reaction to these events. And, it does sound like he reacted appropriately by not even acknowledging OW. He did good, if that is, in fact, how he reacted.
Does it really matter that you might be 'falsely' suspecting bad things about OW? I cannot imagine that, if her intentions were bad, that THAT would make any significant difference in your opinion of her after her having already had a 5 yr EA with your H. Nor would the knowledge, that she was innocent of any bad intentions in these 2 incidents, have ANY bearing on what you think of her. This woman enjoyed a very long term EA with YOUR H...knowing he was a married man...getting her ego stroked by YOUR H sneakily behind your back. I think your feelings about her and your opinions of her are pretty set in stone at this point.
It does sound like your H, however, has totally mismanaged the aftermath of d-day in terms of providing the necessary puzzle pieces so that you could fully understand WHO he is and the reality of your situation/M. People generally withhold information (puzzle pieces) because they have something to hide (a very ugly picture) or fear negative consequences/fallout. The fact that he has protected HIMSELF all along by keeping you painfully in the dark, thus avoiding negative fallout, is very selfish, insensitive and uncaring. THIS is what is troubling you...his LACK of CARE for you and your feelings...as he only worries about his own.
Your H probably thinks that, in time, you will 'get over it'...that you will accept the mangled, partial puzzle which you have been forced to construct on your own.
But, what he does not understand, is that, as more time goes by, it only becomes more and more troubling and disturbing that your H has not CARED enough to do what is right for your healing and the healing of the M. You continue to feel unimportant to him...much the way his A's have made you feel. Just because he is not actively in an A does not mean that he is not still hurting you by his ongoing lack of care.
((((((Naomi)))))
"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin
This message has been edited by MadMission on Oct 16, 2009 12:38 PM
Dear Mad Mission,
I agree with what you are saying about my husband. However, as weird as this may sound - I don't want to hold this against the OW if she is not guilty of it. I do want to release that little tidbit if there is no truth in it. I already have too many "pieces" that i am having to deal with.
Here is my dilemma. It would seem to me, that if after 9 months, this gal was still trying to connect with my husband, then their relationship was far deeper, meant more to them, than what he has admitted to.
And here is my 2nd dllemma. My husband wants to move on. He wants me to move on, knowing that not only have I not been told the truth - but he wants to continue lying as well. How do i do that?
Again, everything you said is spot on.
I have not been told the truth about his relationships. The question - does it matter? - to me, it does. To someone else, it might not. We each have to navigate our ways thru these affairs that works for us, helps us. What is of significance for one BS, may not mean anything to another BS.
I have never asked my husband, what was she wearing, what color was her lipstick, what perfume did she wear, how did it feel to touch her, what was he wearing, etc etc etc. But i know of others who have because for them, in some way that is unknown to me, it was important to them. And what i am saying is, that's ok.
Anyhow, i do appreciate your taking the time to read this and respond. And, as i have said above, everything you have said about my husband, i completely agree with. Thanks!
"Here is my dilemma. It would seem to me, that if after 9 months, this gal was still trying to connect with my husband, then their relationship was far deeper, meant more to them, than what he has admitted to."
-Well, Naomi, this IS significant. I feel that it is of utmost importance to understand the 'size' of the animal you are dealing with. It's one thing when an A is brief & meaningless and purely for sex. But, it's an entirely different thing when it is long term and deeply emotional. The latter is far more damaging to both the BS and the WS. There is a very real disconnect which occurs. And, often the WS is simply unable to ever restore or rekindle the love/feelings he once had for his BS. Of course, it is the LTA which is a combo PA/EA, that is the hardest to overcome for both the WS and the BS. The damage is just so extensive.
I don't want to stir the pot here, but do you really believe that their A was only an EA for 5 yrs, and never turned PA? Unfortunately, if you only have details courtesy of your WH...then it is very likely that he has revealed only the tip of the iceburg. Maybe not. Maybe he has told all. But, it sounds like, based on your posts, that he has withheld many details. I am inclined to suspect that he has withheld the parts which he considers the most grievous...possibly the PA piece. I don't know.
You say that you "have not been told the truth about his relationships" and that "he wants to continue lying as well." I am not sure how you even begin to R with this being the situation. I don't know the details of exactly how the last 2 1/2 yrs have been handled by your H, but you mentioned that he has done very little to restore the M and rebuild trust. It makes me wonder where you stand right now...do you consider yourself R...or on the road to R...or are you beyond even trying anymore?
You mentioned your 2nd delema being that "he wants to move on." Move on from what to what? A M where he was lying to you...to a M where he continues lying?? That doesn't sound like any movement to me. Sounds like more of the same.
So, his definition of moving on = you shut up and accept everything he has said and done, including his A and ongoing lies...and just give him all 'good' days where you both pretend his A's never happened.
I am living proof that sweeping it under the rug does NOT work at all and makes R impossible.
There is something to be definitely said for creating new memories together...having some fun...enjoying each other...doing things which bring you closer together...and putting the distress of the A to the back burner for periods of time. But, you cannot ignore it. It will not go away.
Your situation sounds so sad because so much is unresolved and you are living in limbo, unable to rest. Understandably so.
(((((Naomi)))))
"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin
Once again, you are correct. I have never known the "size" of the animal i am dealing with. My husband has never been forthcoming about his affairs. His story has changed over the last 2.5 years. I have had to be the one to literally dig the information out of him.
His stories don't make sense. For example. His second affair was with the receptionist where he worked. The story that he gave me was that they met up several times in the parking lot of the local shopping center. They parked their cars side by side and just talked. Then one night, i was having some kind of party at our house for girls only, so he had to leave. He met up with her and they then made out in one of their cars.
Now that story sat on me for a month, maybe longer, when eventually, it began to not make sense. So i went to him and told him. I said that when two people are having an affair, they don't make out in a public parking lot -especially when that shopping center was close to where we lived and where she lived. They both ran the risk of being caught. He stuck with his story. Eventually he came to me and told me that i was right, they had not made out in the parking lot, but had gone to a more secluded area.
That's the way it has been with the affairs. I get bits and pieces - and the constant "I don't know, I don't remember" - when i ask questions. I have had to figure out on my own too much of all of this.
I can tell you this, if i were to go to my husband and ask if the affair with the gal from work/church - was more than an emotional affair - he would deny it. NOT because it wasn't, but because he would not want to admit that it was.
Yes, as i said, my husband has withheld a whole lot about the affairs. I do not have the whole story about any of them.
We have not been able to begin rebuilding this marriage because of his lies and withholding the information from me.
I am at the point where i am beginning to believe it is useless. My husband has done so very little to help restore this marriage. For example - i'm the one who has made the counseling appointments. I'm the one who has read the articles. I'm the one who has read all the books.
Your comment "You mentioned your 2nd delema being that "he wants to move on." Move on from what to what? A M where he was lying to you...to a M where he continues lying?? That doesn't sound like any movement to me. Sounds like more of the same." is spot on. That's exactly what i have been telling him. And yes, his definition of moving on means for me to just shut up, forget the affairs and get over it.
Wow...I give you a ton of credit for hanging in there for 2 1/2 yrs!
It is so sad because it doesn't have to be like this.
Some WS seem to believe that what you don't know won't hurt you AND that fewer details means fewer consequences for them. Both are wrong. It only makes things worse. Prevents healing. Trust can never be rebuilt.
Another falacy: Time heals all wounds...so if we sweep it under the rug for long enough, it'll all go away and everyone will be happy. Wrong again.
The big sweep = No healing. It keeps the BS stuck right where they are. No progress.
If I were you, and my WH was refusing to share the details which are important to me, I would HAVE TO believe the worst case scenario must be true. Otherwise, why not just tell me the TRUTH on the 1st time through? His behavior...the unwillingness to be honest from the get go AND his withholding details...would force me to believe the worse...that he had a lot of sex with and was emotionally entangled with these OW. I would have to assume that. (Of course, I could be wrong, but I have no way of knowing.)
He cannot be trusted to be honest...so, then, pretty much everything he has told you is in question. Everything.
OK...so let's put that aside and just look at what he HAS done to foster R.
Has he WILLINGLY participated in MC and/or IC? In his case, it seems that IC would be very important for his gaining understanding of WHY he has had multiple A's, and learning awareness and measures to aviod having more A's.
Has he willingly read any of the books/articles or maybe done some of his own research online about infidelity and how to repair the M?
Do you have access/passwords for computer, cell phone, etc.
And, IMHO, most importantly...has he 'returned' to YOU? Has he shown genuine remorse? Genuine care? Been patient with your emotions? Listened and comforted? Provided assurance and affirmation in words and actions? Made you feel special, important, & desireable? Expressed an appreciation for giving him a 2nd chance?
Look at WHY he has stayed in the M. Is it for YOU, or for other reasons (kids, financial, to save face for himself, it's the easiest thing to do, he likes all the things you DO for him)? In my mind, this is very important because it tells you WHERE his heart is...and if YOU are in it.
I suspect that your answers to these questions are mostly going to paint a bad picture. However, the answers may help you get clarity about the reality of your H/M.
Clarity...good or bad....is ALWAYS a GOOD THING. Once you fully understand your situation, you can then make sound decisions based on your knowledge. If you decide to stay and continue to work on the M, it will be because you KNOW you have something to work with here...that there are signs of hope.
Or, you may realize, without a doubt, that your M is essentially over. You can begin to ACCEPT that and figure out what to do from there. Make a plan for yourself. It is better to live in reality, than to torture yourself with false hope.
Whether your H knows it or not, he has revealed much about himself and where his heart is... even in his silence. Silence can speak volumes. Inaction...speaks volumes.
Naomi, I wish you all the best. I hope that no matter what happens, that you KNOW YOU TRIED. And, feel good about that. Have that satisfaction. Like I said, 2 1/2 yrs is a long time. I give you much credit.
"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin
Try going to survivinginfidelity.com. You need to face the cold hard facts. Your husband has had sex with other women. There, it's been said. You can believe NOTHING he says. Check out the "180" at S.I. and post in a Just Found Out or General Forum. MANY people there with excellent advice. Good Luck!
Should have said " sex with these women".
This message has been edited by cuckhold on Oct 17, 2009 4:45 PM
Cuckhold nobody really knows that except the spouse. You can never assume anything in life. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
The problem really isn't about did he or didn't he, it is the fact that he is still not being completely honest and completely remorseful.
That ends marriage, infidelity doesn't (necessarily).
Naomi hang in there and when you are ready to dig those details from your spouse you will. It may require you setting personal boundaries, and you will get to it in your own time frame.
My heart goes out to you!! Your H sounds so much like mine was at one time. It is such a difficult thing to work through to have all these pieces and not really any knowledge of what the pieces should look like. I can so identify with hating to hear 'I don't know, I can't remember'. I hated those words too.
As I was reading your story one question popped out for me. You said that he confessed his affairs to you 2 1/2 years ago. What prompted him to confess? I think knowing that answer might make a difference in how to put everything else together.
You talk about going to church and you sound as though you are a believer, so I will add one more thing. God is an all-knowing God. He was there during your H's affair. He has the answers to the questions you have. I could write a book about all the things that God revealed to me about my H and his A. My H never confessed of his own free will. His responses were very similar to what you post about your H. Pray that what is hidden in darkness would be revealed in the light.
The "I don't know" or "I don't remember" response just doesn't sit well with me. My ex used that line alot. It wasn't that he didn't remember, it was that he didn't want to, or feel he had to tell me. At points in time he said he was trying to protect me, but I explained that every time I put the missing pieces together of a puzzle that I gained from elsewhere other than him it was like running into a landmine. It would blow up in both our faces and bring me back to the very day I found him with her.
Granted some people have memory issues, but presumably your H is perfectly healthy so his brain is functioning fine. I would expect him maybe not to remember the colour of the OP clothes, or the exact dates etc but to say he doesn't remember what happened is complete BS if you ask me. When something as significant as an affair that is so risky that your marriage could be at stake, I think you'd remember the first time you kissed, the first time you crossed the line etc.
I still remember the exact sequence of events on the night I met my exH 15+ years ago. I can't tell you what day it was, or what the date was, but I can tell you where we went and what we did. Why? because the event was a significant life event that was important to me.
Hello Everyone,
Thanks for your continued support. I do appreciate it.
MM -you are correct, time does NOT heal all wounds. I'm living proof of that. In a nutshell, my h. wants me to more forward even tho he is still lying to me about everyday events and the affairs. Trust, honesty and integrity have not been rebuilt.
And yes, I have no choice but to believe the worst. Afterall, if he won't own up to the truth, then what choice do i have? He could correct my wrong thinking in a heart beat by just telling me what really happened. Plus what he has told me about the affairs, makes no sense either. Infact, basically nothing he has told me makes sense. For example, he had a 1-2 year relationship with a gal. There were phone calls, dates, lots of drinking and phone sex, yet he maintains he never kissed her. Can you understand why i am going crazy with all of this? It is positivily absurd!
Thank you Anonymous for the website, I'll have to check it out.
Leah - can you email me? Yes, i am a Christian. I shutter to think where i would be at right now if it weren't for my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Kid - thanks for your support as well. I have told my husband essentially the same things you have posted here. Yes i understand that the guilt and shame of what he did would drive him to put it all out of his mind - but because of the significance, there is just no way he could.
"time does NOT heal all wounds. I'm living proof of that."
I disagree with this statement. There are three relationships that need to heal. You need to heal you. You both need to heal your marriage and he needs to heal him.
At some point you have to determine that healing a marriage just isn't going to happen because of his lack of remorse and him not putting in any effort in its healing. Rebuilding a house requires getting rid of the old footing and rebuilding everything, not just building another on shacky ground. Unless he can do that, which is apparent after a few years that maybe he can't, then it is likely you can't rebuild a new marriage. You have to decide if you are willing to accept the old one, as shacky as it may be and move forward. Staying in this loop forever will only drive you insane and leave you very unhappy for long periods of your life. Life is way too short for that.
Eventually if you want to move forward you may realize that concentrating on healing you will be your best option. Forget about healing a marriage that the other party isn't putting in equal effort and concentrate on making you better, stronger and more in control of your life.
I'm sure you've read posts from Cal. As much as sometimes we want to stay married, we have to establish boundaries and draw our line in the sand. Two people can't heal if one isn't helping, but one person can heal if they have to. It may not seem possible at first, but you truly can. Time does truly heal all wounds as long as they aren't being ripped open on a daily basis.
If your WS does nothing meaningful in the aftermath of d-day, the wounds to the M don't heal. 'Time' doesn't change that. Even IF Naomi's WH was honest about all the details from d-day on, that, in and of itself, while helpful, will not heal the M. Healing requires so much more than that...personal, intimate gestures of care which bring the BS back in from the curb to which they were kicked. A WS is very mistaken if they think that time alone will heal the wounds. And, I think that is what many hope for when they try to sweep everything under the rug. They figure that their BS will EVENTUALLY 'get over it.'
As you implied, it really is up to Naomi to decide, at some point, whether she can live with her H and the M 'as is.' I think she is approaching a 'breaking point' because she is beginning to feel a deeper level of pain with this awareness that her WH has had 2 1/2 YEARS to show remorse and effort. But, instead of using that time to 'make things right' by showing genuine care for her and the M, he has squandered the time away...adding insult to injury with his ongoing lies and lack of effort.
That's not to say that Naomi cannot go on and heal herself on her own. I have healed myself in time, yes, it can be done. For sure. But, the M...without proper care from my H...remains unhealed. Not for lack of ME trying, but because I was really the ONLY one trying. (Technically, my M has had nealy 5 yrs for TIME to heal it. Time never healed those wounds. Maybe if my H had done something in that time, I would be R) It took me a good couple of years to really determine, with certainty, that my M was, in fact, over... my H and M 'as is' was not good enough. And, maybe that is where Naomi is right now. At that point where she has gathered enough information about her H, to know what it is going to be with him...no effort, no care, more lies, etc. This is a hard reality to face, because prior to now, she likely was still holding out hope for some real change. But, eventually, you get to a point where you have to accept the things which cannot BE changed. Naomi is faced with a hard decision which she does not want to make, but her H leaves her no choice. Having said that, she could stay in the M, but she will remain in a painful place unless she emotionally detaches and untangles from her H because any emotional investment gives his lies and lack of care painful meaning to her. When you emotionally let go of a person, they really can't hurt you anymore.
Or, Naomi can end the M. Which would be totally understandable.
It's just all so sad cause, like I said in a previous post...it doesn't have to be like this.
Naomi, I hope you do not mind me talking about you with Kid!
"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin
Mad Mission was right on. She wrote, "Your H probably thinks that, in time, you will 'get over it'...that you will accept the mangled, partial puzzle which you have been forced to construct on your own.
But, what he does not understand, is that, as more time goes by, it only becomes more and more troubling and disturbing that your H has not CARED enough to do what is right for your healing and the healing of the M. You continue to feel unimportant to him...much the way his A's have made you feel. Just because he is not actively in an A does not mean that he is not still hurting you by his ongoing lack of care."
This is something that Peggy Vaughan, author of the "Monogamy Myth" has repeated over and over, in part based on results of a survey she conducted-- (paraphrasing) Whether or not a marriage has a good chance to be rebuilt isn't so much dependent on the answers provided by the WS to the BS's questions, but rather on the WILLINGNESS of the WS to answer the questions.
Similarly, the late Dr. Shirley Glass, in her book "Not Just Friends," wrote (again paraphrasing) that during an A the WS and OP erect a window between them while the WS erects a wall with the BS; to rebuild the marriage it is necessary to return to the way it should be -- a window between the WS and the BS (i.e., transparency) and a wall between the WS and the OP.
I see these two experts as essentially saying the same thing. Your WS has to be willing to provide answers to your questions and do so to the best of his ability.
He wants to move on and forget the whole thing. Understandable. But you also want to move on and try to forget the whole thing. But what he needs to understand is that you can't move on until you get the answers you seek or at least until he shows a willingness to provide the answers.
Maybe you can forget after a while. But you experienced trauma as a result of your H's behavior. And unless you deal with it, even if it recedes from memory for now, it will resurface over and over again over time.
Somehow your H needs to understand that if he truly wants your marriage to be rebuilt and if he truly is remorseful, he must help you get what you need now.
I just want to say, wow! Len you explained it so well! You put into words the exact reasons I could not continue with my marriage. It took me a long time to get to that point and realize what you, in a few sentences, explained. Thank you!
Diane
Hi Everyone,
First - MM - i don't mind at all that you used this post to respond to Kid.
I have actually been having my husband read this thread. My hope is that if he reads these things from others, then he will sit up and take notice.
He has had 3 counselors and several friends who have told him that i am going about this all wrong. They have told him that i ought not be bringing up the past - tho the counselors agree that for me, this is NOT in the past, since i am just now hearing about it. Regardless, they maintain that i shouldn't be digging around for answers, that i should leave the past where it is and just move on. And because of their counsel, my h. has bought into that. Again, my hope in having him read these threads is that his eyes will be opened by those who have lived thru this. No amount of education can compare to life's experience. Until you walk in a person's shoes, you just can't know what it is truly like.
My H. is finally with a counselor who does not buy into what the others have said. Praise God! This counseler is allowing me to heal, to deal with this in my own way. And he is not judging, nor condemning me. On the contrary - he is telling my husband that he needs to step up to the plate and start doing this in ways that are best for me.
"they maintain that i shouldn't be digging around for answers, that i should leave the past where it is and just move on."
You cannot do anything until you define your REALITY....the reality of your H... and the reality of your M.
The ONLY way to define these things is to examine the past...and incorporate it into your present.
Your H, and those 3 therapists, are expecting you to construct the 'reality' of your life without all the necessary information.
This is impossible. And, it is very unfair to you.
It should NOT matter what the consequences are!
You should be provided ALL the honest details about your H and his affairs...as this is all significant to defining your M.
And, then YOU can decide what to do with that information.
You may decide that you want to work with your H to try and 'overcome' his betrayals.
Or, you may decide that you are not interested in a M with this man anymore...given the truth about him and what he did.
But, YOU should be the one deciding for YOU. Not your H... and not those therapists.
You should be given ALL the details you want and need...then YOU should be allowed to decide for yourself what you want to do from there.
This is YOUR life. And, YOU should be allowed to make informed, educated decisions about it...based on TRUTH. Your H and those therapists are robbing you of your ability to do so.
That is wrong.
"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin
Do you build it on shaky foundation so it might crumble again or do you pull up what is left, send it to the trash and then move forward.
It would be different if YOU didn't want answers. Some people don't. I think they are pretty necessary to know what you need to forgive though, and as a basis to judge the new level of trust that is supposed to be built after an affair.
I didn't get answers. I sometimes stop what I am doing when I'm reminded of something that happened years ago and I wonder. The only different is there is no pain anymore, only sadness. My marriage wasn't repairable because my exH wasn't remorseful.
Hi Again Everyone,
I agree with what you are all saying. Thankfully, we seem to finally be with a counselor who is willing to search for the answers. And i am loving it!
My husband made the comment that he would just like to watch the video tape of him with these women- remember, he maintains that he does not remember what happened. His counselor said that instead of the video, my h. should write the script. In other words - write out everything that transpired between the him and the women. He wrote the script for the first woman and it was 5 pages long
When my husband showed the counselor the script, he tore up page 5 and told him to rewrite it. Page 5 was the heart of the affair and my h. offered very few details - of course, maintaining that he doesn't remember, thus he can't write those things out.
I was thrilled that the counselor tore up the script and handed it back to him. That is major break through - something that i have been waiting to happen for 2 1/2 years.
Hi! I am so happy for you...finally a therapist who gets it!
Sometimes a WS is unable to, or does not want to, really 'hear' their BS.
A therapist is someone outside of the situation whose thoughts and instruction may be better received by a WS.
I wish you all the best!
"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin
I am hoping that this new counselor will open my husband's eyes. Because the other 3 counselors sided with my husband, he felt that i was in the wrong for asking for the details and so felt he didn't have to supply them. And like you said MM - maybe hearing these things from an outside source will change him. God knows i have shown him many many articles, read to him from books - printed off Joseph's letter - all to no avail.
Plus this is the first counselor who has actually been concerned about me. He has told my husband that the lying has to stop because it is emotionally abusing me and he wants to provide me with a safe environment.
Finally, this counselor said that i have carried the weight of this marriage for too long (can we say 35 years???) and it is time for my husband to step up to the plate and take responsibility.
I am so glad for you, Naomi! I hope you get some answers now. A good counselor is such a necessity after an affair. Unfortunately it seems as though almost everyone has to experience those that are not so good at some time or another. I am hoping that s/he will stay on your H's case and he will realize that he needs to be totally honest with you.
Thanks everyone for your postings.
I have Healing Hearts to thank for my husband and me finding a new counselor.
I had thought that there was something wrong with me as to why i didn't like the counselors my husband was seeing. Then a few months ago i was reading on HH about how many of you out there had to go thru several counselors before you found the right one. That got me thinking that maybe the problem wasn't with me, but with the counselors. So i began to research online. I found about a dozen counselors that i thought would work. From there, i wrote out about 7 questions and emailed those. About 4-5 counselors responded and then my husband chose the one he wanted to talk to.
The flip side to this tho is that i was amazed at the counselors who would not respond. They wanted to have a first consultation - and of course they wanted money for that. I wasn't going to pay money to learn that that particular counselor was not the right one.
The one we are seeing now not only responded to our questions, but he added our insurance plan to those that he accepts, so that now we only have to make the copay.
Unless your husband truly wants to do the work, no counsellor regardless of their abilities will be able to help your marriage move forward. Your husband has to want to be there, want to participate and want to make your marriage work as much as you do.
Kid - I agree and this has been a problem in the past. My husband has talked the talked, but he hasn't walked it. My hope is that because this counselor isn't buying into his lies then he will come clean. Plus we are on the verge of separation. If my husband doesn't change his colors quick, then it could spell the end of this marriage. Time will tell.
Kid is absolutely right about whether your H is "playing the therapy game" or not. Mine did for over a YEAR!
But she may not be right about the last thing: Actually YOU won't know if he's being honest and wants to do the hard work. Only your H will.
The wool was totally pulled over my eyes - I wanted so much to believe that FINALLY the truth was on the table. But I wasn't the only one fooled: TWO counselors were also duped. My H had perfected lying to an art.
Whew. Having said that, I am sure glad those are days of the past. My H eventually did come to laying the cards on the table, and then we both knew the rules.
There is DEFINITLY hope even IF he's not being truthful right now. The fog is deep, dark, and thick.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
I am one of those that have been through several marriage counselors. First one and second one my H lied to - you cannot heal if one person is not even trying.
We sat after d-day 5 or 6...for 18 months and did nothing. We lived as a couple but not a connected couple. My H thought that waiting for me to heal and leave the A topic would be a good idea...I was waiting for him to 'take the lead' as he'd said he would...and in that time a huge wall was built to push him fully out of me.
We have been in MC with our 3rd MC now since the beginning of tht year I think. This MC gets it. My H is ready for this. We have made progress on several fronts....it is good when you find a counselor that is the right fit. I do wish we had found him instead of #1 or #2 as I think we'd be more of a 'couple' than what we currently are.
Good luck! If you both are reaching for the same goal - your MC can help you get there!
JJ I have to ask, if your husband is so good and lying and deceiving that he has been able to manipulate you and two counsellors, how do you know what he says and does now is different, is truthful?
I don't mean this as a criticism but I think it might provide valuable information to Noami and others as they go down this road.
My H wasn't very good at lying. He didn't fool me and he didn't fool our counsellor.
Kid, it's a good question. I often ask myself why I now believe my H is not lying when he has been so good at it in the past (lying to me and also lying to OW, playing her game). I think for three years, my H really wanted to believe that he was doing the right thing. He did want to stay with me and help me and our relationship to heal. The problem was he couldn't just drop OW, he wanted her to let him go. So he kept on with the lying in the hope that eventually she would get the message and it wouldn't be necessary any more. It's because he wanted it to be true that he was so good at the lying: he almost convinced himself that it was true, except in the few moments a day when he interacted with OW. And I do ask myself whether he is still doing the same thing. I don't think he is because
(a) I check his e-mails all the time and watch out for any suspicious e-mail behaviour,
(b) he has come clean about everything and says he is relieved that I know it all because he doesn't have to remember what lie he has told me any more,
(c) after D-day#3 (when he faced the possibility that I might not want to stay with him and he would be on his own) he did have a real change of heart and became ready to face his responsibilities,
(d) every since then he has done everything I have asked,
(e) it feels different somehow - even though for two years I thought he was telling me the truth, I did have some niggles about his level of commitment,
(f) when there is a major trigger (like seeing OW at a cafe, or me thinking he had a secret e-mail account), he is as upset by it as me, if not more so,
(g) he is the one who can't bear to see or read anything about infidelity and who really suffers from triggers and reminders...
I remember between D-day#2 and #3 I wrote something here about what it was like to have a truly remorseful spouse and how different it was. Well egg on my face when D-day#3 happened of course; I hope that this post isn't also the precursor to another D-day, but each time he has been coming closer to what I need. No doubt there will be wiser and more experienced people out there who will counsel a degree of cynicism, and I do have that in abundance, but at this stage, like JJ, I do feel he is being honest.
