Shouldn't there be a limit on pain? Is pain supposed to be as infinite as infinity? Shouldn't there be a limit on the amount of pain a person can subject another person to? And isn't there some kind of law or rule that limits the number of people allowed to inflict pain on one particular person?

What is it called when all one can see is a future of more pain? Certainly that can't be called "life"? And then to have to accept that "life", to be okay with that, to not protest but be expected to go along with that...shouldn't that be wrong?

How much does one person have to do in order to get the attention they need? How drastic do they have to go? Does one really have to try to commit suicide in order to get the people around them to wake up and see how dire all of this is? Isn't crying enough? Begging, pleading? Shouldn't hurting oneself, cutting oneself be enough to get some attention that things are not going well for them?

Will having one's dignity stripped from them, finally be what makes all of this stop? Does one have to expose every vulnerability, every weakness in order to finally satisfy the other person?

Happy New Year!

All those things you mention Naomi are a cry for attention.

After dday and my exH left me I was in desperate need of his attention and in so much pain. I tried the suicide route, but thankfully somebody above stopped me. It never phased him. In fact I remember him telling me that if I wanted to kill myself to just go ahead and do it. Nothing like getting blessings to committ suicide eh!

Looking back it was within myself and it was because the pain was so overwhelming that I just couldn't deal with it. It consumed me and overflowed. I had no way to deal with such grief.

My exH didn't come back and didn't listen. I started seeing a counsellor and just having somebody actually listen and acknowledge my pain was really all I needed. My ex was incapable of that.

I also find a cold reality check for me is to read news stories and find others around me who have life much worse than me. Trust me there are tons if you look. After all you have a life, you have food on your table, you likely have family and friends. These are blessings my friend.

The aftermath of infidelity is never easy and yes the pain can get so overwhelming. You can feel isolated and so alone, like nobody understands. I get that. I have the tshirt.

What I can tell you is that pain doesn't last forever. It will gradually fade until you don't even remember the horrible things done against you. I rarely remember anything about the affair anymore, it is snippets of memories of better times together.

So take heart in knowing that the pain will not last forever. The sun will shine again one day and you will see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there.

Hugs
Kid

p.s. is it right that some people are able to do that and just move on, no. They are hallow, shallow and cold people and will never know true happiness or love. There are many things about life that just aren't fair sadly.


Edited to add: our bodies have coping mechanisms to deal with pain that is too much for us. We stopped thinking clearly, sometimes we end up in a comatose state. It is a way to protect us.

Dear Naomi,
Yes there should be a limit. We all know your pain only too well. Ten years ago I stood where you stand. I thought my life was over. The pain was more than I could bear.

With loving friends like Kim I was able to find value in my life. I was able to feel that this was NOT my fault. The problem was my husband and the emptiness of his soul. The lack of empathy and milk of human kindness that allowed him to destroy an incredible love all for the thrill of forbidden sex with ANY body.

Each day I would write here, many many times. I would read all the recovery books over on helpful links. I memorized every word over on dearpeggy.com and found hope in her book The Monogamy Myth.

In time the pain felt like a roller coaster. There were days I went downhill fast, but I learned I would also climb up. Then there were valleys and days where there were actually moments of laughter between the tears.

That is why I still hang out here. I want to reach out a hand of hope to those who follow in my footsteps.

I have learned there are three types of recovery. Mine, his, and maybe the marraige. I am totally responsible for MY recovery. His recovery and the marraige were his choice AND respnsibility. He had to do the heavy lifting for years. I had to focus on healing me.

I did this through therapy, reading here, writing here and reading every recovery book available. I learned this was NOT my choice and not my fault. He never discussed any options with me. Did not ask how I felt about getting AIDS, or other choice gifts ( with a hug again to my friend Kim)

She was my role model. She went through hell and back and came out a stronger woman than she started. I learned so much from her and my other friends here about what I needed to do.

If I needed him to live than my life was not my own once again..

Instead I learned I had to take care of me, and if he chose to change and work hard then MAYBE I would allow him the chance to EARN back my love and respect. BUT.. I would never be the same.

I would no longer be the trusting gulliable little wife waiting home for his return from where ever... never questioning or doubting...

Instead I became a stronger woman capable of taking care of me and choosing whether he had enough remorse to be part of my future. I have never regretted that thinking.

If you beg for his attention destroying yourself in the process the only looser is you. NO ONE IS WORTH THAT.

I have learned that I need to take care of me. Just like on the airplane when they tell you to put on the oxygen mask on YOU first.

We all care that is why we come here. This is a place of healing. Please tell us what healing actions you are taking to help yourself. We look forward to the day that you will be one of us, the old timers, who with or without your mate comes back to help the new people. This place never closes, and there are always people who are learning the horror of infidelity. We need you Naomi. Please know you are loved in our sacred place of healing.

EL

Naomi,

You received wonderful advice from both Kim and El..

I can only echo their words..

I hope that you are seeking some IC.. I can only say that thoughts of sucide, cutting , are so wanting to have someone say I hear you.. we hear you and know what you are going thru.....
the reality is that the WS is so in their own fog that they don't hear the our sorrow.. cry for help.. until they have that moment when they" get it" and that can take time.. and some never get it..

As El said read, post, we are here for you.. it does get better..

((((hugs))))

Pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Naomi,

I am VERY concerned for your mental, physical, and emotional well-being. Reading your words, "Shouldn't hurting oneself, cutting oneself be enough to get some attention that things are not going well for them?" was very alarming.

Dear, sweet woman, PLEASE call your IC today. If you don't have one, call your doctor today. Get help! Cutting can be fatal, even if the cutter doesn't intend it to be. My older daughter was cutting, and her then-therapist told us some alarming information about cutting. Please, please, please get help.

I know you feel like your situation is hopeless because of your H's NPD and your getting guardianship of that young man, but it isn't hopeless. You need help. You NEED to become your own Shining Knight In Armor.

We all know the pain caused by a WS A. We don't all know the pain caused by living with an NPD. Blue Bayou has a good idea and can relate and give you good advice.

Please talk to your doctor/therapist and your lawyer. There ARE options. You just have to find out what they are and then decide what you need to do to protect yourself. Please take care of yourself.

Huge hugs,

ff

I agree....the best thing you can do for you right now is go see an IC. It helps so much in my opinion cause I know it has helped me tremendously. the right IC can make all the difference...


I am so sorry you are hurting so much, and none of this is fair. But you have to go through the pain and feel it(not avoiding it), that is how you get to the other side of it. I know it is hard to grasp that concept when you are in the midst of the pain and it feels as if it will never end, but it truly does get better. as with all things in life, it takes time. Again, I know that is not what you want to hear... ((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

I hope you will seek help, Naomi. It seems you have more pain than anyone should have to bear alone. The five women who posted above me "virtually" saved my life more than once over the last few years. I hope they can do the same for you. Please heed their advice.

Lynda

Thanks for all who responded. My words sound feeble but i do appreciate your concern.

I know this next thing i am going to say sounds absolutely insane, but that is how wrong all of this is. I don't feel as tho i deserve to have a better life, or that i deserve to be healed from all of this. I feel that this is my lot in life and i just need to suck up and bear it. I know that is pathetic and i really am trying very hard NOT to feel sorry for myself and i don't think those words come from a heart of self-pity. But then maybe they do?

I am not allowed to leave. I have to stay. I have to be everyone's servant, everyone's scapegoat and everyone's gopher. That's what i was created for. I have fought it all my life. When am i going to learn? Shouldn't i just throw in the towel and accept my lot in life?

My husband came home tonight and said a couple of sentences to me. When i replied that i am insignificant and it doesn't matter what i think or feel, rather than try to assure me that it does, he turned around and walked up the stairs and that is the last words i have heard from him tonight!

I know i need to take care of myself, to ditch him and get out of here. But there is this battle going on in my head that says i don't deserve anything better, that i don't deserve to be healed and that i need to just accept my lot in this life, which is to serve him, make him happy. And unfortunately, right now, that is the side that is winning.

naomi

Naomi,

Little voices in our heads sometimes originate from our childhoods when we were given WRONG messages from our FOO. The little voice in my head told me I was worthless and that my H's A just proved how worthless I truly was.

Guess what? That little voice originated from my growing up with a mother who was a verbally and emotionally abusive alcoholic. Just because she treated me badly did NOT mean I deserved her treatment.

Whatever WRONG lessons we learn as children we need to UNLEARN and replace with healthy lessons as adult. Your H's behavior has just reinforced those cruel lessons you learned as a child.

Let me repeat myself: PLEASE talk to an IC. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!! Your little voice is LYING to you.

Repeat to yourself until you believe it: I do NOT deserve to be treated like a servant. I AM important. I AM lovable. I DESERVE to be treated with respect.

Start NOW to make healthy changes. Believe in yourself. I believe in you. I wish I could fly to you and pull you out of that house right now this very second.

You only have one life. Please don't waste any more of it. Set yourself free to be happy from this second on.

HUGE encouraging fairy hugs,

ff

Naomi, I hear your cry and wish I could carry some of your burden. I also wish I had some magic way to relieve your pain. I do know I have felt some of it and feel it for you now.
In all the reading I've done about this I have seen so much encouragement for people to get counseling help. It's just that huge. We cannot know how to deal w/it automatically. That's normal. The feelings of self defeat you have are a natural response. They're normal! You're normal! They're temporary. You're stronger than you realize.
Can you do something? Can you take in a deep breath and then....breathe out while making a SSSSSS sound? And as you do it...see if you can make all the muscles in your body let go a notch. Aahh. If you're up for it.. can you do that again? Take a deep breath.......now....SSSSSSSSSSSS.....let it ALL out. That will force you to breathe more deeply which brings more oxygen to every cell of your body which will help you let go of some of this right this moment. Aahh. Not to sound like a teacher but,....one more time? Deep breath in.......hold it...and...SSSSSSSSSSSS...let it all out. Let every muscle in your body turn to jello.
Focusing on your breathing is the basis of meditation. When you really focus on that, you cannot focus on anything else. Vacation of the mind. Catch your breath. Take a breather. We are one with the universe. It's that big and that small. This will not always seem so big. I believe that. I believe in you. Now breathe.
Good luck Naomi. I could not leave this post w/out responding. I wish I could hug you and help you. Love, Debbie

FF is right. The negative view of ourself is usually formed from our family of origin and unfortunately it is reinforced by our WS's bad behavior and treatment of us. I felt the same way...that I didn't deserve better. I am telling you that you do deserve better. No one deserves to be treated subserviantly. You have the right to be happy...you truly do. It took me two years to get to where I needed to be and truly believe that myself, with the help of my IC (and the wonderful people here).

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Naomi dear,
FF is soooo right. So many of us grew up in less than ideal, dysfunctional, down right abusive homes. I'll raise my hand for that one.

HOWEVER, as adults we have the right to CHOOSE the direction the rest of our lives take. I have raised incredible young adults who are very succesful and very loving. They are proof that life as we once knew it does not have to be repeated.I raised these kids, as I now look back on my life... alone. My H was often "working"... he had four affairs over our 30 year marraige that I thought was so loving and so perfect. I loved him totally. He loved me to the best of his abilities at the time. Despite the fact that he was hardly working, but often "busy"...

I really was happy with my life.. most of the time. I had married the man of my dreams who I kept on a sacred pedestal.

It took a LOOONG time for me to realize all that had happened over my lifetime.

As I look back on my last 10 years of healing I realized what a hell I have lived. I realize I really thought life was as good as it could be. Me working like a dog raising kids and being very succesful at a full time job. Never having any spare time, or energy was a way of life for me. I thought that is what life was supposed to be.

Well.. when the $hit hit the fan I took a long time to heal BUT heal I did. Dr. Wonderful my therapist was no small part of my learning that I did not DESERVE better, I owed ME better. I had devoted my entire life to others. I had done NOTHING for me.

And if I don't take care of me first.. well not only am I not appreciated for my endless efforts, but I don't even get to enjoy the results. I was too busy working...

So we have lots of choices to make after we wake up from betrayal. It can be a call to make the REST of our life the best it can be, or we can continue to suffer in silence. The choice is ours.

My choice was to fight for me. I spent the first year in constant agony. Hysterically crying so badly that I had to see my doctor for raw skin on my face. She asked me what was going on and I fell apart. This was a year or so after d day. When I told her my story she gave me Xanax. I am NOT a pill person. But.. she told me to break them into 1/4 ( the prescription was for the lowest dose possible, as well) I could take a piece when I was really crazy. I broke it up into crumbs as well as quarters. I would take a few crumbs every few days. It really really helped! I only wish I had not waited the year to try asking for help. I was able to ride the waves of the roller coaster from hell much better. I was able to think a little clearer.

Therapy, writing here and reading were my sanity. And the Xanex helped me to realize that I really could see tomorrow... I could feel better.

Today all this nightmare is in the past. I write here cause helping others to realize they have a choice continues to help me heal. I look back and remember how bad I once was.. and how much better I am now. You too owe it to all who reach out to you. I owe it to the people who helped me years ago.

We have to continue to be a life support to those who needs us.
I want to know what steps you are taking NOW today to help yourself. You owe it to us, to your children and most of all yourself to make YOUR life the best it can be.

If each of us who write here lived through this horror and say it can get better if you do the work than there must be some truth to it. Why would we write here if we did not believe it?

Each of us did not believe it would get better, but because a loving stranger reached out we held on for one more day. We tried some of the advice offered. And now years later we write to say take our hand and try some of the things that worked for us. Please try... we all care about you.

Love,
El

Let me say, Naomi, that El, Pat, Ami and other wonderful folks here helped me so much when I was deep in despair.

Please think about what we have all told you. Get help TODAY.

Huge, huge hugs,

ff

What is truly amazing about all of this is that all of you are strangers. I don't know any of you and yet you constantly reach out to me because you do truly care -that is apparent. What's crazy is that the people who do know me, the ones who are supposed to be giving me their unconditional love - they don't even ask how i am doing. I had to endure the holidays with my sister, brother, their spouses, nieces and nephews all talking about Tiger Woods and wondering why men cheat. I had to sit and listen as they joked about infidelity. I tried to change the subject in the hopes that they would see how asinine their conversation was, how hurtful and insensitive, but they went right back to talking about Tiger Woods and adultery, still cracking jokes about the humor in all of it. And this is not the first time I have had to endure that kind of treatment.

As for my childhood I was raised by a mother who emotionally abused me. I was the village idiot. But at the same time, I was the caregiver to everyone. I was the one who had to always step up to the plate and take charge. And when I did, there was no gratitude, it was expected. And if I didnt come through, if I wasnt there to meet everyones needs then I was the creep, I was being selfish, self-serving, thinking only of me. And if I had the audacity to think that maybe once in a very little while I deserved something in return, oh my how the proverbial sh*t hit the fan! I would get it from everyone then how nasty and mean I was being, selfish always selfish.

And I went from that to married life. When I was first married, I was independent, didnt rely on anyone cause I couldnt trust anyone. I was my own person. I had to do everything for myself. But one by one, thru constant criticism, my husband took away that independence, the self-respect. No job I did was good enough. I wasnt allowed to mow the grass or paint a wall or hang a picture. He criticized everything. Years ago he told me that he was tired of my cooking - but he wouldnt try anything new. So tell me what was I supposed to do with that? Within the first 6 years of our marriage he told me it was no longer exciting to kiss me and he wasnt going to do that anymore. Besides, according to him I was a bad kisser. And the sex it didnt exist because I wasnt exciting enough for him. He thought every woman he lusted after would give him better sex.

Im rambling and I apologize for that. I did call a counselor but I have not heard back from her. However, I have been told that it wont be able to see her until the end of this month. Right now Healing Hearts is the only support I have.

naomi

No time to write...

Just hugs to you Naomi. And Healing is NOT the only support you have it is just that we do understand as so few people can, and that is why we urge no beg you to write here constantly. That is what healing is all about. You gotta get that poison out.

Will write as soon as I can. Just know NOTHING you wrote is new to us. Many of us seem to have come from similar backgrounds and over the years I see that more and more. All I can say is together we help each other heal and writing here is very very helpful to both the writer and those of us who read. We help each other to grow.

KEEP writing nothing is ridiculous or unimportant. Not only do we understand but writing will help YOU to understand you.

I am glad you made that first attempt with a counselor. NOW keep calling different ones. I interviewd a lot over the phone for free, before I found Dr.Wonderful.

Love,
El

Naomi,

I understand - only too well about the pain that life give us and when do you finally get the chance to live without pain. I had many years in my marriage where I was happy, things were good (I thought) and where the pain of my youth and childhood wasn't prevalent in my life. About 16 years ago I went to an IC to deal with the past issues I had - especially regarding my mom. I too was raised by an emotionally abusive mother - as well as physically and mentally abusive. It took about a year to deal with not only the issue with my mom but for me to also deal with the sexual abuse I endured as a child.

I've heard the phrase many times that God only gives us as much as we can handle. Well sometimes I think I've been holding not only my share but eveyone else's in my family. I have found that the dysfunction of my family is something that I can no longer deal with. I continue to have to find ways of controlling my reactions to them.

Enduring the pain that my husband inflicted on me during his A was as bad as dealing with the abusive of my life. It made me look back and realize that I have been subjected to a lot of abuse and when was I finally going to say 'no more' and stand up for myself. Well, I still deal with forms of abuse from my husband but I can say that I am a victim no more. I will put up with only so much - but I must be true to ME!

The only people that know about my past abuses are my IC's, my H and the people in this forum. When I felt comfortable enough to open up about what happened to me in my past I truly knew that this place was one of safety.

Sometimes it is easier to open up to those that you don't 'really' know than open up to those around you that know you so well.

Keep pursuing the IC route - I do think it would do you well. Feel free to drop into chat during the day and I will try to chat with you while at work or at home. If you'd like - email me and I'll email you....I truly understand where you are coming from and you have hugs from me!

Denise

Naomi

I'm sorry that you're going through this right now. I read your posts and can see the heartache that you've gone through, and the injustice of how you've been treated.

I know that when I felt that way, especially during the first year after betrayal, I found solice and refuge in the Bible and my Christian faith. I hope that you have something like that you can fall on.

I don't want to sound like some kind of amateur psychologist, but the things your husband said sound a lot like someone who is dealing with a very negative self image. I think people do this because they are unhappy with themselves and they want others to make them feel better, but since that's not possible (for someone to make a person happy), they lash out at those who "fail" them. I think the fact he had an affair is pretty consistent with this.
TomJ

Please consider this for yourself:

Look at every relationship you have....with your siblings, cousins, friends, and husband.

Examine those relationships. Each one.

If ANY of those people do not demonstrate genuine care for you through their words and actions, ie don't show that they value and respect you and generally don't have your best interest at heart.....then cut them OUT of your life.

Maybe it is time to 'clean house.'
Surround yourself with people who are genuine in their care. And those who, through their interactions, you find that they bring out the best in you...build you up.
And, keep those relationships where the care flows mutually, and is NOT one-sided with you always giving and them always taking.

Everyone else can go to the wayside.

This is not being selfish, but caring for yourself...it's self-care, self-love.

What you will be left with is likely only a handful of people.
But, that is ok.
As they will be quality people, quality friends.
You don't need A LOT of friends, or even your husband...especially if they are toxic.

Make better choices for YOURSELF.
You are the ONLY one who has control over WHO you allow IN your life.
And, who you choose...is up to you.
Choose wisely.


"It's a mad mission, under difficult conditions. Not everybody makes it to the loving cup. It's a mad mission, but I got the ambition. It's a mad, mad Mission. Sign me up." -Patty Griffin

"Look at every relationship you have....with your siblings, cousins, friends, and husband.

Examine those relationships. Each one.

If ANY of those people do not demonstrate genuine care for you through their words and actions, ie don't show that they value and respect you and generally don't have your best interest at heart.....then cut them OUT of your life. "




If I were to do this I would lose my only living parent and my only sibling. I would also lose a great relationship with two wonderful nieces whom I love very much.

I don't think eliminating all the negative ppl in your life is the answer. I think the answer lies in establishing boundaries with these people so that they know they cannot disrespect you. Sometimes it isn't that people don't care, but that they don't know how to show that they care in a way that you see it.

If we were to just walk away from everyone that brought negativity into our lives I'm not sure how good at conflict resolution we would be. Avoiding conflict isn't healthy either.

Just my two cents

Kid

Just to clarify i mean that in the context of family, not necessarily in the context of WS's.

I also believe we all reach a limit of pain tolerance and in the context of the original thread could certainly see removing somebody from my life (ie husband). I had reached that limit where I knew I could not continue to live in the pain I was feeling and have to deal with an unremorseful spouse daily.

I also think that everyone has a different tolerance. Sometimes we know when we've reached it but we are scared of change. I know I was!!

Hi Everyone,
I do want you to know that i am reading all of your postings. I really do appreciate the time and wise counsel you are all giving me. And i do take seriously your counsel and opinions. They are from those who have been in this same alien territory like myself and that fact speaks volumes to me.

I am trying. I made an appointment today with a new counselor. But i don't see her til the end of the month. My head is just in this vacuum it seems. I see everything through dizzy eyes and everything i hear is heard thru the constant pounding of my heart inside my head. I can even feel that pulse beating inside my ears. There are only a few seconds when all of that stops and i can hear and see "normal", then it's right back to this vacuum of dizziness that i am in.

Thanks for caring about me. Thanks for taking your time with me and being patient. Thanks for not giving up on me too.

naomi

Naomi,

I am glad you have an appointment to see an IC; however, in the meantime, would you consider making an appointment to see your family physician? I do NOT at all like the sounds of your current condition. I am not doctor, but I sure would like you to see one.

Huge hugs,

ff