http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/rushlimb.download.akamai.com/5020/New/obamayouth.asx

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"Aint it da troof...... Aint it da troof."
Cowardly Lion

...if you have a bible in your house.

...if you have ever served in the US military.

...if you believe the 2nd amendment is a good thing.

...if you think abortion is a bad thing.

...if you think Keith Olberman shouldn't win that journalistic integrity award.

...if you don't belong to the U.A.W.

...if you own an S.U.V.

...if you contribute to a 401K.

...if you are making your house payments.

...if you sent Barney Frank a teabag and got a thank you note from him.

...if you think illegal immigrants shouldn't get free college tuition.

...if you don't believe ACORN is doing God's work.

...if you've always been proud of your country.



I'll sit back and watch the carnage now

...if you think every American should have a bible in their house and no other religious text.

...if you have ever served in the US military because you were too stupid to go to college or didnt have the money and then came home from boot camp and tried to fight everyone in the local bar in your hometown.

...if you believe the 2nd amendment means you can own a tank, bazooka, grenades, napalm and any other weapon of choice because it is technically an "arm".

...if you think its ok to bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors who perform abortions (The Lord Jesus loves a hypocrit!)

...if you think Bill O'Reilly tells it like it is.

...if you belong to the N.R.A., a country club or live in a trailer.

...if you are stupid enough to own an SUV and then whine about not being able to fill your gas tank because of Obama's taxes (actually Bush's taxes)

...if you contribute to a 401K, borrow from it, re-finance your house and then blame the Democrats for the fall of the housing/stock markets.

...if you are making your house payments, because no Republican got a bad loan...LOL

...if you think joking about a Congressman's sexual orientation is hilarious especially when they guy's IQ is about 100 points higher than any 2 members of your family.

...if you think illegal immigrants should be paid under the table and your business prospers.

...if you think ACORN stole the election despite the overwhelming evidence it did not.

...if you've always been so proud of your country that you cheat on your taxes and hire illegal immigrants to make more money...


"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Thread isn't worth comment.. humor is humorous when it is relevant, propoganda is just what it is...propoganda...and it isn't humorous.

"Well, it ain't braggin' if it's true
Yes sir, yes sir
It ain't braggin' if it's true
Muhammad Ali said that
Back when he was a young man
Back when he was Cassius Clay
Before he fought too many fights
And left his brain inside the ring"

...if you have ever served in the US military because you were too stupid to go to college or didnt have the money and then came home from boot camp and tried to fight everyone in the local bar in your hometown. ~ el bronco pollo

This speaks volumes about your mind set.

...if you think joking about a Congressman's sexual orientation is hilarious especially when they guy's IQ is about 100 points higher than any 2 members of your family. ~ el bronco sensitive

IQ is not the only means of measuring a man's value in his position. There are plenty of brilliant minds that never cracked a book in college. The man you reference is fun to mock because of the way he slobbers on himself when he speaks. How you can defend the guy is beyond reason.

"...if you sent Barney Frank a teabag and got a thank you note from him."

LMFAO! I think that is hilarious, even if it makes me an extremist right-winger.

Also, think it is hilarious that some of the recent right-wing protestors are embracing the moniker "teabaggers" because they don't know what it means, lol.

Guess I must be an extremist on both ends.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

...if you have ever served in the US military because you were too stupid to go to college or didnt have the money and then came home from boot camp and tried to fight everyone in the local bar in your hometown.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WOW!
Nice, nothing like mocking the very people that gave you the chance to get an education.
Some people join the millitary b/c they are a mid class white person, and don't benefit from the many gov't handouts for college tuition.
Some people join the millitary b/c they like the millitary, and feel pride and honor about serving the most powerfull millitary force in history and it is made up of free will people.

Yet, to a liberal, they are evil hillbilly redknecks, that rape and murder people in other contries.
only if we would just ban the millitary all together.
Get rid of all weapons and just love eachother...

Bronco, you used to be one of the few liberals that had any normal thoughts, since your messiah has come, you have are drfiting to the Nancy Pelosi camp.

I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics.
I truly cna't take the conversations anymore.
I see a great nation being hijacked by a Sanfransicko mindset, and too many people cheering it on.
The wrods above by a normal thining liberal, pretty much spells the end.

...if you think every American should have a bible in their house and no other religious text. Well if you read the other texts Bronco Nagurski you would see they they are for the most part spin offs of the Bible. The Quran is the best example of that with changed verses to support the religion's way of thinking. This is man's way and not Gods. It is funy to me that the more we think we learn about the wonders of this earth the less we thank the Creator for them.

...if you have ever served in the US military because you were too stupid to go to college or didnt have the money and then came home from boot camp and tried to fight everyone in the local bar in your hometown. Well Bronco I served in military, spent time in 2 war zones and now am a telephone engineer. I pay taxes, support my community, pay money to charities and churches and haven't killed anyone yet--- as far as I am concerned you should be banned for that one comment. You have the gaul to get on anywhere and say something aganst the very reason you get to sit in a courtroom and fight for your liberal ideas. You my friend for a lawyer are one of the most uninformed, silly people I have very discussed the military with.

...if you believe the 2nd amendment means you can own a tank, bazooka, grenades, napalm and any other weapon of choice because it is technically an "arm". Nope no one I know says that. But if you take away the ewapons from the just, only the unjust will have them. Can you spell carnage?

...if you think its ok to bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors who perform abortions (The Lord Jesus loves a hypocrit!) Not everyone is a bomber. But unlike pro-choice folks who use tax payer money to support the right to murder a child, the pro-life movement has to shoulder the ideas of life.

...if you think Bill O'Reilly tells it like it is. I believe he does. I also think that Keith O. uses his show to attack others. Instead of that, why don't you come up with some ideas that do not limit freedom and prosperity? Oh I am sorry that is the liberal indset-- march on!

...if you belong to the N.R.A., a country club or live in a trailer. I belong to one of those. But I don't have an issue with people who want to live in prosperity or live in a place that is cheap-- it is their lives.

...if you are stupid enough to own an SUV and then whine about not being able to fill your gas tank because of Obama's taxes (actually Bush's taxes) Some people own SUVs because their families need them. Not all of us have one person in the car and no one had issues with station wagons 30 years ago.

...if you contribute to a 401K, borrow from it, re-finance your house and then blame the Democrats for the fall of the housing/stock markets. What does the stock market have to do with me taking money out of my 401K? If I need it to get myself out of a financial mess, I will use it-- it is my money

...if you are making your house payments, because no Republican got a bad loan...LOL This statement is assanine

...if you think joking about a Congressman's sexual orientation is hilarious especially when they guy's IQ is about 100 points higher than any 2 members of your family. I don't agree with this at all. I would put my 9 year old brother up against some of them. Just because you have been to college is not proof of any intelligence. There are plenty of functioning boneheads with master's degrees out there.

...if you think illegal immigrants should be paid under the table and your business prospers. This is wrong and should be stopped. But.......... we want to invite them in the country, pay them Social Security and give them free medical insurance. Hmmm... such hypocracy..

...if you think ACORN stole the election despite the overwhelming evidence it did not. Well there are 2 sides and this doesn;t really matter to most of us normal hard working non-lawyer/politician types

...if you've always been so proud of your country that you cheat on your taxes and hire illegal immigrants to make more money... I think if the truth be known this is a country wide and not a party issue.

Today is my 50th birthday. I enjoy the comments on here and only come on to say something when I see something so wrong it makes me scream. This post from Bronco was top 5 for me...

Peace

...if you have ever served in the US military because you were too stupid to go to college or didnt have the money and then came home from boot camp and tried to fight everyone in the local bar in your hometown.

I have never said anything this offensive on this board, IMHO

Glorifying the military is an ancient tactic used by all governments throughout history. How do you get young men to sign up for a job in which they might be killed for a cause which may not be particularly noble or worthy? That said, there are many brave men in uniform but there is also an over-abundance of jackasses and losers who are not smart enough to do much else. We're talking low IQs here. That's not just my observation, but the observation of some of my friends who have enlisted in the past. Some people sign up because they passionately love their country. Others like killing things or can't function in a job that doesn't have a lot of structure. I'll judge the individual by the content of their character, not their job.

"The answer to the general manager problem is the same answer that we have to have for all these criticisms. We have to win. When we manage to do that, we won't hear so much about that kind of talk." - football genius Mike Brown

I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

There it is folks, in black and white. Let's see how long murf can keep his trap shut about political stuff. I'm guessing less than a week.

Some people join the millitary b/c they are a mid class white person, and don't benefit from the many gov't handouts for college tuition.

Bringing race into the discussion once again I see. Poor murf, he is so unfortunate to be born a white male in America.

"The answer to the general manager problem is the same answer that we have to have for all these criticisms. We have to win. When we manage to do that, we won't hear so much about that kind of talk." - football genius Mike Brown

"but there is also an over-abundance of jackasses and losers who are not smart enough to do much else."

Sounds like ACORN workers or Huffington Post bloggers.

All that I am going to add is that I typically vote Democrat but I don't mind Bill O'Reilly.

He says some dumb things but he also says some good stuff also. He's not the typical right wing tool such as Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh...both who amount to nothing more than cheerleaders for the Republican Party (I still remember watching Hannity and Colmes the night of the Biden/Palin debate in which Hannity and Colmes were surrounded by a Palin-supporting crowd trying to explain to the Fox News watching world how Palin won a debate in which she misused terms such as regulation and felt that the VP should have MORE power than Cheney). That was laughable.

One of my goals for 2009 is to get my cat's picture in O'Reilly's mailbag at the end of his show! Although with the hockey playoffs going on now I doubt I'll get a chance to watch the factor for the next few weeks...

Bringing race into the discussion once again I see. Poor murf, he is so unfortunate to be born a white male in America. ~~~

No, it is a simple fact of life.
I can't help it, if you are not mature enough to have a debate over an issue without crying about race.
You are a pathetic loser, you will always be a pathetic loser.
There is not much room for anything else.

...if you think every American should have a bible in their house and no other religious text. Well if you read the other texts Bronco Nagurski you would see they they are for the most part spin offs of the Bible. The Quran is the best example of that with changed verses to support the religion's way of thinking. This is man's way and not Gods. It is funy to me that the more we think we learn about the wonders of this earth the less we thank the Creator for them.

-- How about Hindu? Does that religion predate your precious religion?

...if you have ever served in the US military because you were too stupid to go to college or didnt have the money and then came home from boot camp and tried to fight everyone in the local bar in your hometown. Well Bronco I served in military, spent time in 2 war zones and now am a telephone engineer. I pay taxes, support my community, pay money to charities and churches and haven't killed anyone yet--- as far as I am concerned you should be banned for that one comment. You have the gaul to get on anywhere and say something aganst the very reason you get to sit in a courtroom and fight for your liberal ideas. You my friend for a lawyer are one of the most uninformed, silly people I have very discussed the military with.

-- Nice try shalom. By the way, thanks for your service. I really mean that. Obviously, not every military guy fits my description. There are honorable guys that just want to serve their country or do it because their dad did it, ect. Out of all my comments, this was the one that was the most tongue and cheek. I have stated numerous times on here that I am grateful for every person's military service. the problem I have is when the military guys come back to the States and think they are the only ones who should be allowed a vote and that every one else "has no clue" what its like because we "havent been there". Nice form of democracy fellas...

...if you believe the 2nd amendment means you can own a tank, bazooka, grenades, napalm and any other weapon of choice because it is technically an "arm". Nope no one I know says that. But if you take away the ewapons from the just, only the unjust will have them. Can you spell carnage?

-- Oh, yeah, go to an NRA meeting and tell them you believe its ok for people to have shotguns, rifles and handguns, but not grebnades, assault rifles and grenades. You tell me how that meeting turns out.

...if you think its ok to bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors who perform abortions (The Lord Jesus loves a hypocrit!) Not everyone is a bomber. But unlike pro-choice folks who use tax payer money to support the right to murder a child, the pro-life movement has to shoulder the ideas of life.

-- You (and all the rest of the pro-life crazies) use the term "murder" as you see fit. You people fail to comprehend that other people dont view it as murder. I say this and I am pro-life (at least for my family).

...if you think Bill O'Reilly tells it like it is. I believe he does. I also think that Keith O. uses his show to attack others. Instead of that, why don't you come up with some ideas that do not limit freedom and prosperity? Oh I am sorry that is the liberal indset-- march on!

-- Olberman attacks other people as much as O'Reilly does. They are both equal pundits and should be taken with a large grain of salt. Neither one is better than the other (at least journalistically).

...if you belong to the N.R.A., a country club or live in a trailer. I belong to one of those. But I don't have an issue with people who want to live in prosperity or live in a place that is cheap-- it is their lives.

-- Again, obviously, a tongue and cheek statement which you have ironically proven. LOL -

...if you are stupid enough to own an SUV and then whine about not being able to fill your gas tank because of Obama's taxes (actually Bush's taxes) Some people own SUVs because their families need them. Not all of us have one person in the car and no one had issues with station wagons 30 years ago.

-- If you recall, there was one party in the 70's and 80's pushing for alternative fuel sorces and trying to lead the country towards renewable resources and away from fossil fuels. I will give you a guess as to who it was and it a'int the Republicans, sparky.

...if you contribute to a 401K, borrow from it, re-finance your house and then blame the Democrats for the fall of the housing/stock markets. What does the stock market have to do with me taking money out of my 401K? If I need it to get myself out of a financial mess, I will use it-- it is my money

-- Way to miss the point, Einstein.

...if you are making your house payments, because no Republican got a bad loan...LOL This statement is assanine

-- I'm sorry. Its all the Democrats fault. Democrats made the housing market what it is and onyl Democrats got bad loans. Smoke another, bro...

...if you think joking about a Congressman's sexual orientation is hilarious especially when they guy's IQ is about 100 points higher than any 2 members of your family. I don't agree with this at all. I would put my 9 year old brother up against some of them. Just because you have been to college is not proof of any intelligence. There are plenty of functioning boneheads with master's degrees out there.

-- I wasnt talking about "some of them", I was referring to Barney Frank. I would love to see someone as smug as your azz try and debate him. It would be hilarious.

...if you think illegal immigrants should be paid under the table and your business prospers. This is wrong and should be stopped. But.......... we want to invite them in the country, pay them Social Security and give them free medical insurance. Hmmm... such hypocracy..

-- You and yours came from immigrants as well, chief. Do youy live in glass houses? I thought it was the trailer park? Or was it the Country club?

...if you think ACORN stole the election despite the overwhelming evidence it did not. Well there are 2 sides and this doesn;t really matter to most of us normal hard working non-lawyer/politician types

-- Tell me how they stole the election. I have been begging the righties on this board to tell me how. Please!!!!!! Explain your point!

-- I dont care how old you are, PS. Congrats on living this long.

Thanks for your military service, but it doesnt make you any more intelligent in the political realm.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"-- Oh, yeah, go to an NRA meeting and tell them you believe its ok for people to have shotguns, rifles and handguns, but not grebnades, assault rifles and grenades. You tell me how that meeting turns out."

What the hell is an NRA meeting? I've heard there is a national convention, but I don't think there are any meetings. I'll ask around, maybe it's secretive. Grebnades and grenades have never been considered a firearm, those are munitions, so that would probably fall under the NMA's domain.

Wow--quite a good pissing contest you guys have going on in this thread. That being said--I'm not touching this thread with my 10-foot pole.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Old schooler it aint a pissing contest. I love having fun with liberal spewing lawyers-- it is almost as fun as bashing my head in with a bat.

Bronco-- if you get on here and say things and then when you are challenged you say it was a tongue in check comment-- then what the heck so we believe about your drivel?

You can change the wording anyway you want but life begins during conception. If it doesn't, why does ultrasounds make grown people cry, why does when the baby move do people get excited, why do we even have well-baby clinics? Please do not even try to tell me that baby is not alive in the woman's womb-- see when it comes down to it you are not thinking clearly. Think about 50,000,000 deaths-- 50 million murders. You can't explain it any other way.

I am happy that you think my service was appreciated. You have no idea what it is like to carry a friend away after being shot, what it is like to be a place where neglect, disease and starvation have happened because of tyranny. So thank me all you want but don'r criticize the military because of a few--- I guarantee that there are a whole lot more dirty lawyers that folks in the military.

I don't give a rat's butt about politics. What I care about is 2 things-- the one true God's will in my life and looking at thngs from a compassionate, caring point of view. So if you are talking about Hinduism, read first. The Bible was written by Moses through the words of God. As in Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning... get it??

You come on here and act like you are the voice of reason an you are not. What you speak of is laws that man made, not the laws that this country was found on. This country was strong and blessed because of our love of the one true God Jehovah. Now because we have gone the other way, what do we have to show for it? I care if you believe in Jesus but I more care that you understand that we are not at peace because of our distain for God's principles. Calling it a fairy tale, telling me that you don't believe the very things that God spoke are indicative of what this country is doing. Have you noticed that the streets are not safe, that drugs, abortion, immorality, alcohol, divorce, lying, stealing, cheating, greed and evil are all on the rise? Have you noticed the fear in the people because when they lose their jobs they have nothing else to fall back on? If you study the Bible it writes that this will happen in the end times.

Anyways, I would appreciateit if you would stick to what you understand.

Peace

Bronco's nonsense is as follows:

-- Nice try shalom. By the way, thanks for your service. I really mean that. Obviously, not every military guy fits my description. There are honorable guys that just want to serve their country or do it because their dad did it, ect. Out of all my comments, this was the one that was the most tongue and cheek. I have stated numerous times on here that I am grateful for every person's military service. the problem I have is when the military guys come back to the States and think they are the only ones who should be allowed a vote and that every one else "has no clue" what its like because we "havent been there". Nice form of democracy fellas...

What a complete load of crap that was. Can you give me the name of the organization of "military guys" who think they are the only ones who should be allowed to vote? Of course not because it does not exist. Your comment was a complete lie. Sure, a few idiots out of the millions that have served may have uttered such nonsense but I guess to a dirtbag like yourself, that is a "bunch"

You are a low life to make such a nonsensical claim. Of course your goal was to make people think there were a bunch of guys who think this way so you could disparage them. Having elected to serve in the military and having led 124 men in combat I can tell you that you are the one that has "no clue" when it comes to understanding what combat veterans and military personel think. You are not even close. I have never met a soldier who has ever uttered such treasonous vile nonsense and I have actually been around a few.

The Daily Kos must be running out of good ideas now that Bush has been gone for a few months.


_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

I have noticed the liberals have been attacking the millitary service lately.
From Bronco, who I like as a person, and used to think he was honest thinking liberal, to the idiot incharge of protecting us, Nancy N., sending out warnings of angry millitary people turning to a millitia based on abortion and race...
What a crock of sh!t.

Can anyone name a group of former marines creating a group to attack blacks or abortion clinics?
C'mon, when was the last time an abortion clinic was even bombed, and who did the bombing? Not a group of former millitary boys.

The liberals are hand feeding the media this garbage and the media is sucking it up.
There is no more Bush bashing, so they need to create a bunch of sh!t to be negative about the millitary.
Just think, the leaders of the party that controls Obama, called our soliders rapist and murderers.
then refused to even apologize when the facts came out.
The liberals pushed for a 20 year Marine to face charges of 4 homocides, with no evidence of a body, blood, shell casings, or a witness...the stroy came from a marine that cried to leave a war zone.
I don't know if the guy killed 4 people in cold blood or not, but kind of hard to convict someone of such a detailed crime, without 1 single shred of evidence.
The same party that screams for rehab and second chances, seem to flip the script when it comes to the millitary.
Why the hate?
A poster on here, who did not have the balls to use thier name, just cried about our millitary murdering innocent Iraqi people...no evidence...of any mass murder, there have been thousands killed in a war zone, during a war, but that is war, don't confuse the two.
These soldiers have nothing to do with the policy of the white house, they are trained to protect thsi nation, no matter what.

As far as the second amd.
I don't care what the liberals try here.
I have a right to arm myself, if it is a grenade, then it is a grenade.
If it is an RPG launcher ($600.00 complete kit with 2 rockets), then it is an RPG launcher.
If it is an automatic machine gun...aka street sweeper...then that is what it is.
These things are no more deadly than 9mm/357/44 mag.
Why?
B/c most people who would own these type of weapons, are not hte same people running around shooting eachother.
Some just like to collect certain weapons and things...I have friends who are into guns, have huge gun vaults, and have piles of piles of ammo...they don't drink, do drugs, kill anyone, they work 50 hours a week, and on weekends, go to a state gun range, and shoot off some rounds.
One of them found a civil war cannon...rebuilt it, it works, spent a ton of time and money doing, it is his hobby.

You can buy grenades, if they made that illegal, then people would build thier own, not that hard.
I am tired of the liberals, saying, "well we only want to take these types of weapons, you don't need those type of weapons anyway", what that starts is the next time someone wants to "add on" tot hat bill, then you have an all out ban on weapons.

A gun is harmless...a human being is the problem when a crime is involved using a gun.
That gun did not shoot itself, load itself, point itself at anyone or group.

Why can't you just leave that alone?

Don't worry Bronco, Janet Napolitano will watch these extremist ex-military neo-cons, we should all feel safe now. I am glad Homeland Security has redirected their focus on the real enemy.

I can compromise Murf.

How about this. You can keep your grenades and assault rifles.

However, if someone commits a crime with either one (or an RPG), they get an autopmatic life sentance with no chance of parole. If you agree to that, I'm down.

Also, I saw the report you guys are talking about. Even a 3rd grader should udnerstand the report was not talking about ALL military guys. Quit playing the victim and try to understand that Neo-Nazi groups, civil-militias and white supremecist groups are often well-armed and have members that are ex-military. Far right extremists are pretty freaking nuts and down right scary. The far left? they smoke weed, burn bras and have sit ins.

There is a difference.

Having said that, with the exception of Homey, I dont think any of you qualify for the people in that report.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"The far left? they smoke weed, burn bras and have sit ins."

and don't forget threaten the AIG employees and their families lives for taking bonus $$$ Chris Dodd approved(until someone found out).

I can compromise Murf.

How about this. You can keep your grenades and assault rifles. ~~~~I don't have any grenades (yet)...lol

However, if someone commits a crime with either one (or an RPG), they get an autopmatic life sentance with no chance of parole. If you agree to that, I'm down.
~~~~
I agree with you 150%. If anyone commits a crime using any type of weapon, they should get a longer term and if they kill anyone with that weapon, automatic life or death row.
That is my biggest problem with the gun laws, they attack the people that are not going to hurt anyone else. I agree, that you truly don't want some of your nieghbors playing with a rocket launcher..having said that, the majority of society would not want one or know where to buy one.

Also, I saw the report you guys are talking about. Even a 3rd grader should udnerstand the report was not talking about ALL military guys. Quit playing the victim and try to understand that Neo-Nazi groups, civil-militias and white supremecist groups are often well-armed and have members that are ex-military. Far right extremists are pretty freaking nuts and down right scary. The far left? they smoke weed, burn bras and have sit ins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with you to a point, but these groups are always around and have been around for many years.
Many are nothing more than lonely and confused people and the gov't should watch out for them, b/c they can get out of control.
What I don't like is the connection to racial talk...besides the neo-nazi nut bags, most people in the millitary come out with a better understanding of other races b/c they spent time together and would not be likely to attack other races based on that short term background.
I don't think the racial tone has changed b/c Obama is president, it might be, I don't know, but would seem to be a very small protion of the nut jobs that would turn violent b/c of obama.
Now, there was more to that report, she said it, but a few idiots in Washington started to champion the racial devide...whatever...I don't want to be looked at as a racist b/c I don't like obama, hell it is not that I don't like obama, I respect the man, I don't like the agenda his party is laying out, my dislike is pointed more to pelosi and murtha and those types than obama.

I see NO reason that anyone should be able to buy or own REAL/LIVE handgrenades. If its a pretty blue empty training version then that is a different story but a real handgrenade has no business anywhere besides in the ammo pouch of a well trained soldier. The modern hand grenade is are not the lame pinnapple grenades of John Wayne movies. Toss one into a crowd and you can easily take out 10 to 20 people in a second and they are VERY easy to conceal.

RPGs? Come on Murf, I have a hard time believing you can buy a service RPG launcher with service (real) rockets in this country. There is no good reason to own an RPG unless you dislike the local SWAT team. Pretty much sure you can't hunt with them, shot them in competition or fire them at any firing range I have been on except as a member of the US military on a military range. They are not very accurate and are not very reliable anyways so I can't see allowing them to be sold for many good reasons.

I have fired just about every weapon known to man to include RPGs, Stinger surface to air missles and 8 in howitzers. The issue concerning assault rifles is that of deception. Civillian versions of the M-16 and AK-47 are semi automatic not full. In other words, they are not machine guns like you saw in Platoon. Second, both are no different than a Remington 22-250 or 30-06 which have been legal for years besides they look scary. In fact a 22-250 is probably a better weapon than an M-16 and a 30-06 is way more accurate and lethal than an AK-47.

If you can own an RPG why not a Stinger surface to air missle? It takes no skill to throw a hand grenade into a crowd and you can probably get away with it. Hard to secretly fire a rifle.






_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

I think SF2 has a point here. Forget the grenades (and the RPG's, ect).

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

RPGs? Come on Murf, I have a hard time believing you can buy a service RPG launcher with service (real) rockets in this country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, yes you can! Ever heard of a Machine Gun Shoot?
You can buy anything and everything that is legal to buy and some stuff that is not so legal.
You can buy the RPG...trust me on that one.


Grenades are dangerous, but you can make a grenade in your garage with the proper powder and the correct whick...they sell for about 75 dollars for 20 of them...somewhere around there.
Plus you could make grenades out of firework powder and a skoal can....
Trust me!


Honestly, would have very little problem with a ban of civilian sales of RPG's.
Some things are better left in the hands of the millitary.
lol!

I agree that the assualt riffle talk is silly and another media scare tactic against guns.
Same the anti- gun crowd, they toss out words like Street Sweeper and the idiots that don't know anything about guns, go around talking about how street sweepers serve no purpose.

Murf you are a complete idiot. I mean really I hate that has to come to that, but why must everything be explained to you in the simplest terms? The term murder was used as a general term, meaning we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Get it pinhead? And I don't cry my friend, but it does bother me to see our young men and women asked to go kill for NOTHING and possibly get killed, get that murf for NOTHING. Yet dorks like you do what ever your masters in the Repuke party tell you then try and spin it to justify it. See you wouldn't know jack squat about that would you when did you serve oh thats right you dont have the balls...lol. I my friend have been there and done that. I just don't know why its not ok to question something that is so obviously wrong. Murf you are so keen on treating our military right then why would you try and justify this atrocity?

I have a hard time understanding why we should let those who are mentally ill or those convicted of violent crimes be allowed to own firearms...not sure what good comes out of that.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Let's play in reality for a minute. Unless there is some special license I don't know about, Joe Public can't own an RPG,Bazooka, grenade, a breech-loaded canon, a mortar, or armed rockets. Machine guns can be owned by filing the proper paper work with the Feds, get an letter of okey-dokey from the local Sheriff, and pay a couple hundred bucks to Uncle Sam, this is called generically a "class III license" and the procedure must be followed for each gun. There are other provisions you must comply with (such as visits from the ATF when they please to be certain that the gun is indeed in your possesion). Civilian-legal machine guns must be manufactured before 1986.

Mentally ill people shouldn't be allowed to own guns, same with violent/ drug related felons, this is common sense and shouldn't even be open for debate.

Came accross this and thought of you Bronco. I imagine this is how you see yourself 30 years from now. LOL...


?t=1240021355

Well, I guess I'm the one who started this whole thing I expected some spirited debate and got it. I can't say I expected this level of vitriole but I suppose that's a sign of the times we're going through as a nation right now.

I didn't know Bronco was a lawyer but I expect he's a pretty good one. At the very least his clients will know they have a zealous advocate in their corner. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree. Fortunately, in about a week we can aim our collective displeasure where it's best served..... at the worst team owner in the history of modern sports. I can't wait for MikeyBoy to announce his surprise pick at #6......Mark Sanchez. Damn it's gonna be fun watching Mel Kiper's hair fall out like seaweed off a slimy rock!

Murf, I'm with you brother. I'm about tired of the politics too. Time for an ice cold Guiness Draft here. I'm out like James Carville in the first round of a spelling bee.

********************************************************************************************

"I've been through a lot of terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened."

Mark Twain

"I don't give a rat's butt about politics. What I care about is 2 things-- the one true God's will in my life and looking at thngs from a compassionate, caring point of view. So if you are talking about Hinduism, read first. The Bible was written by Moses through the words of God. As in Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning... get it??"

Uhhhh, I am definitely not getting it. The Bible was written about Moses through the words of God? I have read Genesis many times, and that makes absolutely no sense. And who is talking about Hinduism?

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

"A poster on here, who did not have the balls to use thier name, just cried about our millitary murdering innocent Iraqi people...no evidence...of any mass murder, there have been thousands killed in a war zone, during a war, but that is war, don't confuse the two."

Who is confusing the two? In one scenario, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of civilians die, including children, and in the other scenario, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians die, including children, and we call it a war.

Couldn't be more obvious.



"Because most people who would own these type of weapons, are not hte same people running around shooting eachother."

I don't know about that Murf. There will always be some collectors/eccentric rednecks that want to buy RPGs (RPGs?) or whatever, and I am totally OK with that, but as long as organized crime exists (and as long as drugs and other things are illegal it will exist) these will be the majority of the people obtaining these things one way or another.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

The title of this thread reminded me of this Onion News Network video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oYP6jzU9Mw

though it has nothing to do with the conversation.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

Tell these guys they are not good enough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YQFKIVLsxw&feature=related

They will do ANYTHING to save your ass, including sacraficing their own!

Don't spew anger, measure your words. Or are you Jodie Boy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFlolrA7Wo&feature=related

I am sure you have what it takes, you are a young man bronco.

Think about it.

Semper Fi

I read my post and I should have said the first 11 chapters of Genesis were given to Moses by God to write. All of the rest of the 5 books were eyewitness accounts all written in the Torah collected and written on scrolls by Moses. It makes a lot of sense--- how else do you explain the story of creation?

Bronco brought up Hinduism because his point was to prove that their books were older. Can't be however since the Bible starts with God created....

Peace

The anti-gun-control crowd either misses the point of rational analysis or doesn't care about rational analysis.

No one cares if ordinary law-abiding citizens has any kind of firearm, even so-called assualt weapons. But there is a supply and demand reality that is not disputable.

The more of these weapons that are made and sold legally, the more of them that eventually find their way on to the street by theft or even accidental loss. I see the briefing statements on a regular basis.

The street price for illicit guns is very low. It will continue to be low as long as the supply end stays wide open.

There was all that phony rhetoric during the Bill Clinton/Janet Reno years about gun control depriving law abiding citizens of hunting and sporting firearms. It was all bunk. And it's bunk today.

But to not accept any rational analysis about the overload of stolen, high powered guns on the streets today is crazy. Some rational restriction is long overdue.

And we'll all still be able to hunt deer and defend our homes.

If some of the gun nuts will get real, they would overcome their low manhood self esteem in other ways, and just buy some larger strap-ons.

"If some of the gun nuts will get real, they would overcome their low manhood self esteem in other ways, and just buy some larger strap-ons."

Coming from an arrogant cop that's funny stuff, typical pot / kettle.

The term murder was used as a general term, meaning we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Get it pinhead?~~~~~~~~~~~

No, I don't get it, for the simple reason of using a very serious word, like murder, as a general term.
That is your typical liberal ignorant rant.
----------------------------------------

And I don't cry my friend, but it does bother me to see our young men and women asked to go kill for NOTHING and possibly get killed, get that murf for NOTHING.~~~~~~~~~

According to you and the liberal idiots that would rather have our inncoent people killed first, like 9-11, then cry about the gov't not knowing enough to protect us, and then spending outrageous amounts of money creating groups to investigate eachother and play the pass the buck game untill the American pulbic get tired of the story, and people like you, refuse to udnerstand the very real course of the world in this day and age...sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best is not a very safe and secure way of surviving.
Soldiers are fighting a war that had to be fought, nobody likes war, nobody likes seeing people die and nobody likes the fact that you have thousands of lives destroyed b/c of the war, but nobody likes waking up one day and watching thousands of Americans die for no reason.
If the world had a better plan of attack back in the day, WW1 and WW2, would have been prevented.
I guess you would have rather watched the mideast turn into WW3 first?
There is more to the story than Bush wanting to get rid of Saddam, you just refuse to look further into the facts of life and the history of the world and what type of animals you are dealing with.

------------------------------

Yet dorks like you do what ever your masters in the Repuke party tell you then try and spin it to justify it.~~~~~~~~~~~

I am not, and have never been a member of a political party...I would lean to the right b/c of a few issues here and there, and hate the liberal mindset...but never a republican, but you can keep being your hypocritical, socialistic self, and ignore the real life. Smoke some spot, try to relive the 70's and never understand the real world, untill the day comes where you lose your loved ones and friends, then blame the gov't for nto doing thier job... and you call me an idiot...lol
------------------------------------

See you wouldn't know jack squat about that would you when did you serve oh thats right you dont have the balls...lol.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Son, you don't know the first thing about me, why I didn't serve and how much I do know about the millitary...I seriously doubt that you served in the millitary, or if you did, you had to be one of the little girls that cried when the war started, and claimed that you didn't join to fight.
Soldiers would not be calling fellow soldiers murderers...if you did serve, you should be ashamed of yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I my friend have been there and done that. I just don't know why its not ok to question something that is so obviously wrong. Murf you are so keen on treating our military right then why would you try and justify this atrocity?~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't see this war as an atrocity.
Again, I don't like to see war, I don't want to see a soldier die, or watch another family suffer the loss of a loved one, a baby never getting to meet the father or mother, the mom and dad having to bury a son, that is a very hard thing to watch.
I also don't like to see innocent Americans die either and having to do thru the same exact thing, like 9-11.
I am not connecting the Iaqi war with 9-11, I am just pointing out that we have been at war with the mid east mindset for many many years, and they will not stop, never.
We can't just ingore people like Saddam and the lack of respect for the rest of the world.
The reasons for war are never popular, and for most are not good enough reason to go to war, but sometimes, you just have to do it...I don't knwo if Iraq was the worth it ro if the millitary brains had the coorect information or the correct game plan, niether do you, but what I do know, is that the religious gave dwelling cowards, will continue to attack us, and I woudl rather have our soldiers killing them, isntead of digging for bodies on our soil.
We are the world police, that is something you can't change, no matter what.
We are the biggest and scariest millitary power on earth and as much as a small % of the coutnries in this world hate us, they still owe us, they still run to us, and they still understand the nature of the beast.
I would love nothing more than to have every soldier return home, but at what cost to the rest of the world.. You claim to love human life, well how many lives have been saved from this war...my opinion, is that the lives saved b/c of the lives lost, is well worth it.

~~~~~~~~
Trooper---you have a point, but you can't punish law abiding citizens b/c the animals can't behave.
The criminals, will always have weapons, no matter what laws you champion, they don't follow the laws, that is why you have a job, making laws don't stop crime...locking up criminals prevents crime, not creating more criminals by creating useless laws.

Murf I just don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one. I know what your saying war is a messy business, thats why I am never in support of just willy nilly invasions like Iraq. Murder may seem like a harsh word, but think about it man. What do you call the unjust deaths of many, and many of those are Americans.

Let me try to explain something real quick. I may just seem like some liberal whack job to you who hates the military, but I don't just the opposite. It concerns me greatly to send our troops out into harms way with out just cause. I probably give more lattitude to our troops than your average liberal because I know what they are going through and how stressful it is. But I also may come down on them a little harder at times as well, because there is a lot of respect that comes with wearing that uniform. That may sound a little corny and you may not completely understand, but most of my brothers get it. Remember we are supposed to be the good guys. The comaraderie doesnt go away after you are discharged.

ONe other thing murf I don't need to know anything about you son to know you are a dope. I never called anyone single soldier a murderer. You should really get some see spot run books and try this reading thing all over again. I can further tell that you don't know jack about the military other than "my brother served so i know all" nonsense. Just a little more FYI I again never said I served in this conflict so your wanted to join and not fight nonsense is way off. I was in the first gulf war if you must know.

To be fair to you though I will say this I think you mean well, but you are just not too bright and easily lead around by others. Try thinking for yourself sometime and take off the blinders theres a great big world out there that doesn't revolve around you.

Grenades are dangerous, but you can make a grenade in your garage with the proper powder and the correct whick...they sell for about 75 dollars for 20 of them...somewhere around there.
Plus you could make grenades out of firework powder and a skoal can....
Trust me!

Murf, there is a huge difference between a military designed grenade made from ultra high brittle steel filled with Comp B (higher explosive velocity than C4) and a skoal can filled with firecracker gunpowder.

One explodes into 10,000 pieces all traveling close to 5000 ft per second and has an effective killing radius of 15 meters or 45 feet. Thats a seriously dangerous device.

The other shoots a round plastic lid up in the air and also some plastic pieces in the area, some that might put an eye out if one is really close.

Lets not compare a Ferrari to an old VW Rabbit diesel.

Sorry I didnt respond to this earlier SF2, I didnt see it..

"What a complete load of crap that was. Can you give me the name of the organization of "military guys" who think they are the only ones who should be allowed to vote? Of course not because it does not exist. Your comment was a complete lie. Sure, a few idiots out of the millions that have served may have uttered such nonsense but I guess to a dirtbag like yourself, that is a "bunch"

You are a low life to make such a nonsensical claim. Of course your goal was to make people think there were a bunch of guys who think this way so you could disparage them. Having elected to serve in the military and having led 124 men in combat I can tell you that you are the one that has "no clue" when it comes to understanding what combat veterans and military personel think. You are not even close. I have never met a soldier who has ever uttered such treasonous vile nonsense and I have actually been around a few."

-- Groups? Who said anything about groups. For the record (and for fun), I posed my question to a couple of ex Marine Special Ops that frequent the pub I hit on the weekends.

My exact questions was, "Do you think the average person should be able to vote on things related to foreign policy and how our military is used or should that be reserved for guys that have served and have been in the line of fire"??

They both laughed and then asked me if I wanted their "honest" opinion. I said "of course". They said they dont think the average person understands enough about the military and foreign policy, so in that regard they thought it should be left up to the military or ex-military.

Interestingly, I followed up that question by asking them if they thought the average person should have a vote on Constitutional Issues or only lawyers or those who have studied the Constitution. They laughed out loud at that one and said of course not...I suppose I was the only one out of us 3 who noted the hypocrisy...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

- Groups? Who said anything about groups. For the record (and for fun), I posed my question to a couple of ex Marine Special Ops that frequent the pub I hit on the weekends.

So these ex Marine Special Ops guys were in for what two months?

The Marines didn't authorize their Special Ops units until 2006 and didn't start training the units until late last year in 2008. I am sure a Marine Corp Special Ops unit will be one hell of unit but I don't even think they have finished the training of the first A teams yet.

It smells like BS to me.

The fact is anyone who has been trained to the extent one has to be to be a member of an elite force will probably be more informed than 98% of the country in these matters. Problem is you elect a President to be many things, not just Commander in Chief.




_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

ONe other thing murf I don't need to know anything about you son to know you are a dope. I never called anyone single soldier a murderer.~~~~~~~~~~~
You don't even know the start of it..no clue, you are the type of person that gets his teeth knocked out in a bar for having a big mouth, then cries to the cops and wants to press charges, have been around many people like you and frankly, have more respect for a turd, then sad and pathetic puke like yourself.





You should really get some see spot run books and try this reading thing all over again. I can further tell that you don't know jack about the military other than "my brother served so i know all" nonsense~~~~~~~~~~
Again, you have no clue! just b/c you folded a few towels in 91', does not make you a soldier, a soldier would not go around and call fellow soldiers MURDERERS, and yes you did call them that, by make a general commment about every single person in uniform that served this country with pride, not some sissy boy that was given a uniform by mistake.



. Just a little more FYI I again never said I served in this conflict so your wanted to join and not fight nonsense is way off. I was in the first gulf war if you must know.
~~~~~~~~~~~
you said...."BEEN THERE DONE THAT"...now it is, I did not serve in this conflict, it was in 91'.
So you made sh!t up. 91' was a seperate war, seperate enemy, seperate war.

To be fair to you though I will say this I think you mean well, but you are just not too bright and easily lead around by others. Try thinking for yourself sometime and take off the blinders theres a great big world out there that doesn't revolve around you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe you should read your own comment.
Mr. "I have been there, but not been there".

You are a sad and pathetic human being.
you called the soldiers murderers...just like Murtha and Pelosi called the soldiers rapist.
You are wrong, try to side step what you said when called out, and do the typical liberal dance...side step, side step side step.
Have a fuching back bone and stand by what you said...OUR SOLDIERS MURDER!

~~~~~~~~

Murf all I can say is you are an idiot you just cant read, poor dumb fool. I said Americans were also murdered get it stupid that means they were sent somewhere to get killed for no reason. Get it yet you pin head? Get it through your fat head you only think or should I say follow one way because thats the way its sold to idiots who cant think for themselves. Well thats ok the world needs ditch diggers too and you do that well. It was a stupid pointless war and you gobbled it right up like an idiot with no regard for anyone, but yourself. They are all just numbers to you no real people right murf. Afganastan was where we needed to be, to actually you know murf get the people who actually did something to us. Nope murf says attack everyone hey murf we got a real bad illegal immigration problem why dont we invade Mexico? After all thats your answer to everything. Hey murf why aren't we in N. Korea now that guy seems like a real bad guy why aren't we there? You murf a real fool/tool.

"you said...."BEEN THERE DONE THAT"...now it is, I did not serve in this conflict, it was in 91'.
So you made sh!t up. 91' was a seperate war, seperate enemy, seperate war. "

What does this even mean? Why don't you try finishing some communication classes. Been there done that meaning served my time where as you tried to spin it like I wasn't trying to get out of my current duty. How do you even get by not understanding a damn thing you even dumber than dumb. Again stupid ass I never called a soldier a murder...dumbass. Seperate enemy wow I mean wow you are a dummy. I'm done with you now if you ever learn to read maybe you can have a real conversation with someone instead some radio personality talking through your ugly mug.

For the record here is what I said that murf obviously misunderstood.

"Well as long as you didn't have to pay for the wrongful murder of thousands of people including Americans, its all ok. "

Didn't know I would have to actually spell it out for you murf. Well now I know you have no interpretation skills. And I do stand by what I said I have more compassion for our soldiers then you ever could.

B.S.?

Well, that is what they claimed. They both have the jarhead look/hair cut. One of them has a Semper Fi tatoo on his upper right arm and they both served at Camp Pendleton (I think they trained there but I'm not sure).

In any event, they said what they said. For the most part they are pretty cool guys. However, one of them has gotten the boot from the Pub a few times. I think they moved to Vegas around the first of the year (that is when they started coming in).

Regardless, even if they are lying about being Special Ops, they are undoubtedly marines. The same question was posed and they gave the answer they gave, which, as limited in its practicality it is (2 men does not equal an accurate survey), it still proves my point.

You can try and switch it arounf all you want. I still think most military people consider civilians to be second class citizens (except for hot chicks, of course...LOL).

Generally, I get along with most military folk, but there have been a few uprisings (mostly in my college days). Nothing too serious, I had to boot some people out of the campus bar I worked at OSU a few times. More commonly than not, when it involved military guys, it was usually the guys fresh out of basic from the Army or Marines. Luckily for me, I am not a small guy and I have a background in wrestling, some boxing and Kempo - hence, I never got too bothered by their antics.



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

I am sure I could do the same on Moveon.org or Daily Kos and get the same response.

I am sure if I asked "should women who oppose abortion and believe marriage is between a man and a women" be allowed to vote it would be well over 50% no.

So you asked a couple of less than honest Marines their opinion and they gave you the answer you wanted.

BTW, the big problem with the military v civillians is that those of us who have served in combat are "stunned" by the outright lies that are being told by the media, mostly by the left in this country, about what is actually going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Military rules dictate we do not get involved or voice our opinion openly about such matters and leave that up to the public affairs officers. Funny thing is we rarely see any of these people on shows run by ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN etc. Typically they have on some retired overweight Captain or Major on there saying $hit that just isn't true. When they do have someone like Gen. Petraus on, he is branded a "Betrayer" and treated like pond scum.

You have guys like Harry Reid, an actually fudking Senator, proclaiming the war is lost. John Murtha calls a bunch of Marines murderers before any investigation is completed or any trial takes place. These are the people the military are supposed to respect? John Kerry has been lieing about Vietnam and his fellow soldiers for decades.

Now the left is proclaiming that Afghanistan is being lost and our troops are having no effect. The poppy fields are everywhere and that is somehow our fault. Actually, it is. We are LETTING THEM GROW the stuff. Its practically the only source of income there and the only way we can get the separate clans to cooperate with us. War is an ugly business. Oh and the inability to conduct ground operation in Pakistan is why this thing is still going on at this level. I don't blame Obama or Bush for this since it is tricky business violating another country's border.

Why would you expect the military to have much respect for civillians when they get little in return?



_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

bronco and his karate trophies vs a Marine from Camp Pendleton...hmmmm. I think I'll take the guy with the crew cut.

BTW, Special Ops is better known as MARSOC. It is based in Camp Lejeune, NC...not Camp Pendleton. The 1st MSOB is at Camp Pendleton, 2nd MSOB is at Camp Lejeune.

Sounds like Wannabes hanging out at bars drinking in Vegas....probably weekend warriors/29 Palms Grunts or Supply hacks in Barstow and are pulling the wool over your eyes bronco.

bronco, just buy them a beer next time and call it a day. You've back pedaled all you can.

"You've back pedaled all you can."

WTF?

How have I back pedaled? I stick to the same comments I said before. Guys that come back from basic training can be (and often are) problems when they get drunk with civilians.

I hate to break this to you, but it is possible to "support the troops" and be critical of how military people interact with the civilian population. You dont have to continuously kiss their azz after their service like some subservient slave who is not worthy of being in their presence.

I know what I am saying is not popular, but the whole kiss the troop's azz for the rest of their life or otherwise you are some sort of traitor or whatever is ridiculous. You dont grow political clout just because you served. I am not going to be influenced by you on things like the economy, gay marriage, taxes, or the like just because you served. Anyone who says different is a moron or a sheep or is simply intimidated by these guys. Again, thanks for your service, but I am not going to spend all day kissing your azz.

USC, I'm no bad-azz, but I can defend myself pretty well. Not every Marine is an azz-kicker either. As soon as my knee gets better, I am going to start training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with a couple of friends. Should be fun...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Bronco, you are as right as rain. I'm one more military admirer and yet I'm one that won't deny there are some military miscreants, like Tim McVeigh.

There's a constant theme of over-generalization and contrived (that means phony) outrage by much of the rabid right. There's no better example than that the media "lies" about Iraq.

I listen to and watch TV news a lot. What have I heard?

Well, I've heard that violence is way down in Iraq since the surge but also that Iraq has become highly segragated. I've heard that we've lost thousands of lives and spent the best part of a trillion dollars there, that Sadam was a secular leader who was at idealogical war with Islamic fundamentalists and that Sadam was a brutal dictator.

I've heard many stories about American military bravery, patriotism and charity, and I've heard a scarcity of stories about military acts of sordid behavior (and by the way, the use of the word sordid came from W shortly after the mistreatment of prisoner story broke.

The rabid right doesn't appreciate a balanced piece of journalistic work. Thus they spout off with their phony outrage rants.

And the right doesn't even get it when they commit irony. Just for the sake of argument, I won't challenge that Murtha used the word "murderers" as a blanket term for many of our military (although I don't really buy it at this point). Nevertheless, John Murtha is a decorated veteran with a fantastic combat history.

So if you call John Murtha a scumbag, are you calling the entire American military a scumbag? Oh, you meant just him personally, not the entire organization.

How phony.

I will complain about the media in general about one point though. After we got sucker-punched (thanks for ignoring the intelligence briefings W) on September 11, the media certainly stayed comatose and non-responsive as Cheney and company conjured up a war frenzy at one of our attackers' idealogical enemies.

I still haven't forgiven CNN et. al for being right wing lackeys in 2002.

Bronco, you are as right as rain. I'm one more military admirer and yet I'm one that won't deny there are some military miscreants, like Tim McVeigh.

There's a constant theme of over-generalization and contrived (that means phony) outrage by much of the rabid right. There's no better example than that the media "lies" about Iraq.

I listen to and watch TV news a lot. What have I heard?

Well, I've heard that violence is way down in Iraq since the surge but also that Iraq has become highly segragated. I've heard that we've lost thousands of lives and spent the best part of a trillion dollars there, that Sadam was a secular leader who was at idealogical war with Islamic fundamentalists and that Sadam was a brutal dictator.

I've heard many stories about American military bravery, patriotism and charity, and I've heard a scarcity of stories about military acts of sordid behavior (and by the way, the use of the word sordid came from W shortly after the mistreatment of prisoner story broke.

The rabid right doesn't appreciate a balanced piece of journalistic work. Thus they spout off with their phony outrage rants.

And the right doesn't even get it when they commit irony. Just for the sake of argument, I won't challenge that Murtha used the word "murderers" as a blanket term for many of our military (although I don't really buy it at this point). Nevertheless, John Murtha is a decorated veteran with a fantastic combat history.

So if you call John Murtha a scumbag, are you calling the entire American military a scumbag? Oh, you meant just him personally, not the entire organization.

How phony.

I will complain about the media in general about one point though. After we got sucker-punched (thanks for ignoring the intelligence briefings W) on September 11, the media certainly stayed comatose and non-responsive as Cheney and company conjured up a war frenzy at one of our attackers' idealogical enemies.

I still haven't forgiven CNN et. al for being right wing lackeys in 2002.

Bronco, you are as right as rain. I'm one more military admirer and yet I'm one that won't deny there are some military miscreants, like Tim McVeigh. ~~~~~~~~~

He was out of the millitary, not in a war zone.
I will never deny that you have soldiers that become idiots, there is a huge difference between people like McVeigh and soldiers fighting in a war.
--------------------


There's a constant theme of over-generalization and contrived (that means phony) outrage by much of the rabid right. There's no better example than that the media "lies" about Iraq. ~~~~~~~~~

There has been many stories well documented about the media twisting the facts and not reporting real facts about Iraq, it is not a secret that the media follows the liberal agenda and wanted nothing good comming out of the war during a crucial election period, one so called profesional got fired b/c he ran with a false story.
What good does it serve to call our soldiers rapist and murderers and champion some pictures as torture during a war? You only place the soldiers in harms way by creating anger just make a political party look bad.

I listen to and watch TV news a lot. What have I heard? ~~~~
Problem is, the news is now opinion and half truth

Well, I've heard that violence is way down in Iraq since the surge but also that Iraq has become highly segragated. ~~~~~~~~~~
Irag has always been segragated.

I've heard that we've lost thousands of lives and spent the best part of a trillion dollars there,~~~~
We have lost lives, money should never be factor in a war.

that Sadam was a secular leader who was at idealogical war with Islamic fundamentalists and that Sadam was a brutal dictator. ~~~~~~~~
Brutal? Why do people cry over Darfar or Somolia, but ignore the monster in Iraq?


I've heard many stories about American military bravery, patriotism and charity~~~~~`
Very few reported in this country by mainstream media.

and I've heard a scarcity of stories about military acts of sordid behavior (and by the way, the use of the word sordid came from W shortly after the mistreatment of prisoner story broke. ~~~~
Scarcity? I guess having the photos of "torture" on the front page of every newspaper and every single station using it as the lead story for weeks, is scarce?
How about the infamous murdering rampage and rapes in Hadathia?
How about the illegal torture in Cuba?
give me a break, the bad news out plays the good news by 20 fold.

The rabid right doesn't appreciate a balanced piece of journalistic work. Thus they spout off with their phony outrage rants. ~~~~~~~~~~~
What is balanced journalistic work? the fact that you have been fed a bunch of horse sh1t about torturing muslims in Cuba? When the investigation was finished by several agencies outside of the United States, and there was never any evidence of torture, period, maybe some out of line beahvior if you want to call it that, but never one single shred of evidence about torture, the fact that there has been a medical examiner at every single interview with a coward, even after the so called torture of water?
A book tossed in a toilet, an open shirt on a female, and some fake wires.
Face it, the media made our soldiers look like monsters.
I guess Danny Perals head being cut off or soldiers being bruned alive is the same as being called a name or having a medical examiner stand by and watch you get some water play.
Give me a break.

And the right doesn't even get it when they commit irony. Just for the sake of argument, I won't challenge that Murtha used the word "murderers" as a blanket term for many of our military (although I don't really buy it at this point). Nevertheless, John Murtha is a decorated veteran with a fantastic combat history. ~~~~~~~~~
How can you deny that Murtha stood infront of the nation and screamed that we were raping and murdering people in Iraq? That is not something you can deny...falt out fact, he is being sued by several soldiers for that comment. His history has nothing to do with his political outburst.

So if you call John Murtha a scumbag, are you calling the entire American military a scumbag? Oh, you meant just him personally, not the entire organization. ~~~~~~~
no, john Murtha called the soldiers rapist and murderers...he lied, he accused innocent people of doing something they did not do, so he stands alone..well not alone, there are several others in hgih ranking liberal offices that did the same exact thing, and yes, every one of them are not worth the puke from a maggot.



I will complain about the media in general about one point though. After we got sucker-punched (thanks for ignoring the intelligence briefings W) on September 11,~~~~~~
So if we are attacked in the next several moths, you are goign to balme Obama?
I just want the record straight.
We all know Bush, knew that the cave dwelling cowards sent out e-mails telling everyone that they are going to fly planes into buildings on Sept. 11, but bush ignored it, b/c he wanted americans to burn to death.
I seriuosly can't believe that you are allowed to carry a weapon in public.


the media certainly stayed comatose and non-responsive as Cheney and company conjured up a war frenzy at one of our attackers' idealogical enemies.~~~~~~~~~~
News flash, the entire world agreed that Saddam had weapons.
Why?
I guess you failed to read the transcipts of his interviews after being jailed?
When he states, that he wanted the world to believe that he had weapons of mass destruction b/c he feard that Iran would find out that he had nothing. So he put the information out there, and played the game..Plus he said he did have the material to create such weapons in roving medical labs, and there were pictures of those labs presented to the United Nations.
I guess in all of your news watching, you must have went to the bathroom during those stories.


not every signle member of the millitary is innocent or perfect.
You are dealing with human beings and amny are flawed, but to make a general comment that all millitary people are raping and killing and torturing people in a war zone, will never be tolerated, and it never should be tolerated.
This country has lost so much respect b/c of the people they voted into office.
Bush is gone, it is all in the hands of Obama now...Nothing, can be pointed at Bush from this point forward. (millitary speaking)


Walsh said his review looked at 20 allegations of abuse, 14 of which were substantiated, but he did not go into details. Generally he said the abuse ranged from "gestures, comments, disrespect" to "preemptive use of pepper spray."

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

The millitary has nothing to do with politics...I will always defend the millitary.
Let me rephrase that....the millitary should never have anything to do with politics....

Walsh said his review looked at 20 allegations of abuse, 14 of which were substantiated, but he did not go into details. Generally he said the abuse ranged from "gestures, comments, disrespect" to "preemptive use of pepper spray."

In all honesty, I think most of the reporting on the war and our soldiers has been pretty damn positive.

In 6 years, the only negative things I can remember hearing about was:

1. Abu Gharaib (which I and every normal thinking person only blames a handful of people for)

2. The occasional soldier and his buddy taking out some locals and getting caught after soemone rats him out.

3. Murtha's claims which I dont know much about.

4. And Guantanamo (which I blame the heads of government for, not the actual soldiers for)

5. The occasional rweport on Waterboarding.


-- Other than these things, I see positive reports int he media each day. Murf, you are high as a fukking kite if you think the number of negative stories outweighs the postive by 20. If you guys remember correctly, Chris MB Hater and I had a disagreement about the "liberal bias" back in the day. I set out to watch the news and state what the news reports were. The hilarious thing was most of the stuff on Iraq was about soldiers stories and how they were helping and what they were doing.

This is another one of those "the media makes us out to be monsters" when it really doesn't. The average American "supports the troops" or whatever that means. Somehow or another, Murf and a nunch of guys on the right suddenly became conspiracy theorists after Abu Gahraib (sp?).

For the record, SF@, I do believe some of our boys did some really horrible things to non-military people in Vietnam/Cambodia/Louse. I dont think it was all "good guys vs bad guys" over there. I'm sure I'm unpatriotic in your eyes for saying that. I would expect nothing less from you.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

This is another one of those "the media makes us out to be monsters" when it really doesn't. The average American "supports the troops" or whatever that means. Somehow or another, Murf and a nunch of guys on the right suddenly became conspiracy theorists after Abu Gahraib (sp?).
~~~~~~~~~~

During the heat of the war, the media was brutal with stories.
The Abu Gahraib story was the worst, then Hadathia, then Murtha/Pelosi/Ried/Boxxer.
Well to be fair to the media, they did not create the Murtha story, they just reported it, that is on the cowards, not the media.

The media did change facts and story lines to produce negative headlines....A major face of the news got fired for such actions.
Katie would not report certain stories and got in hot water over that.

It was not an attack on the troops, it was an attack on Bush and Chaney, anything and everything to show failure. the troops just had to deal with it.

The media backed off after the back lash of Hadathia....

only 1 major network carried the investigation findings and that was FOX, CNN and MSNBC both had a 30 second teaser on it, but only FOX spent more than an hour on the fidnings and talkign with people about the story.

Fox is just as guilty, they trump up a bunch of hot air just to be opposite of the liberal side of things.

Murtha and Pelsoi should never hold an office seat after their comments.

Walsh said his review looked at 20 allegations of abuse, 14 of which were substantiated, but he did not go into details. Generally he said the abuse ranged from "gestures, comments, disrespect" to "preemptive use of pepper spray."

1. Closing of Gitmo
2. The non-condoning of Waterboarding


Two of the dumbest things about liberals. Why would you not want a group of pissed off marines keeping Cuba in check/detaining prisoners?

Why in the hell wouldn't you condone the getting information out of prisoners in anyway shape or form (Waterboarding)? Could save American/Western European lives. Get information anyway you can get it. That guy you're interviewing probably helped other people fly planes into very tall buildings. You can kill that MF'er IMO, if you get good accurate information out of him. Oh yeah--force his dumbazz to eat bacon before you kill him, please? Tell everyone you can about it too. That means we finally mean business.

Maybe that will deter others from flying planes into other buildings/monuments/federal points of interest? The American Government is far too nice. Nobody's scared of us anymore. They need to start peeing down their legs thinking about getting caught.

And yes, Bronco, you are un-American. Take yourself, BA, and all the other US-haters on this board and move to New Zealand. This country would be far better off.

Thanks.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

"Why in the hell wouldn't you condone the getting information out of prisoners in anyway shape or form (Waterboarding)?"

Uhhh, maybe because prior to Dubya we did a pretty decent job of not torturingn other people and setting an example. Also, its easier for us to negotitate with others if we are not brutalizing captives. Lastly, it increases the chances of our men and women captivez treated better abroad.

Falc, you are fukking retard sometimes (well, lets be honest - most of the time).

After 9/11, people (especially on the right) went nuts AGAIN. It reminded me of McCarthysim, the internment of Asian Americans after WWII, ect. Some of you fukkers are so quick to limit basic freedoms this country was founded upon (4th amendment, basic civil rights, ecT) so that we can find out info that will save us from the next 9/11. What you dont realize is that there is an equal number of people that will battle against your stereotyping and racial profiling and suffocation of the 4th amendment because those are American principles you are trampling over.

I'm un-American? LOL

Yeah, I'm just a guy that studied the Constitution zealously, majored in American political history and in college and currently volunteers his time for a number of philanthropies not to mention practices law, which is, as you know, what makes our country different (and better) than every other country int he world.

What do you do? Oh that's right, you coach women's football and troll on a Bengals fan website. Ok, you win...

"Lastly, it increases the chances of our men and women captives treated better abroad. "

Bronco, that is the most naive thing I have heard on this board. Imagine getting your head cut off alive with a knife, this was being done before waterboarding, how can treatment get any worse? You really think terrorist will take this to heart and treat prisoners better?

Also, am I to believe you became a lawyer because of your love for country? LOL, yea, that would make me the naive one.

The fact that Falc claims not to be conservative, all the while defending many of their principles and bashing liberals in a stereotypical "righty" fashion makes me LOL. (Yes, I understand you're not a religious nut, that doesn't make you an independent).

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

Uhhh, maybe because prior to Dubya we did a pretty decent job of not torturingn other people and setting an example. Also, its easier for us to negotitate with others if we are not brutalizing captives. Lastly, it increases the chances of our men and women captivez treated better abroad.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Uhhh, who told you that lie?
When did the rest of the world start following our lead in human rights? lol.
only a liberal would believe such a mickey Mouse fantasy.
The cave dwelling cowards, don't care if they have friends being tortured, or kissed on a dialy basis, they are retarded human beings, and have bene retarded since birth, from a perverted religion.

that is about the dumbest excuse for not torturing someone, that I have ever heard.

We should NEVER, negotiate with anyone, period, nothing to debate on that issue.

The Mickey Mouse fantasy world is a dangerous place to live, and I for one don't want the rest of us to be forced to live like this...please , if there is a God, make the next 2 years go fast, so that we can save our families from this nightmare.

"Falc claims not to be conservative, all the while defending many of their principles and bashing liberals "

BA, the left has moved so for left, what was centrist has become right wing, Thing like defending America has become an extreme right wing ideology.

Double Post, GD-it. See below.



"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

"set an example"?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!!?!?!? Are you f*cking kidding me? Are you going to go into that liberal "civilized society" schpeal too? Give me a damned break. Lemme give you clue, brainless--the Western Countries are the ONLY ONES THAT FOLLOW THE GENEVA CONVENTION RULES!!!!!!!! Everyone else since Korea that's fighting the US? No fuggin' way, Jose. You can't win with the Geneva Convention unless both sides are following them.

When your enemy is cutting off the heads of their captives, then it is time to get medival, sir. You don't treat your captives with respect anymore. You start pouring water until it's not time to pour water anymore--then you pour more water until they feel like talking. You want me to show you how it's done, Mr. Kempo White Belt Security Tough Guy?


"Some of you fukkers are so quick to limit basic freedoms this country was founded upon (4th amendment, basic civil rights, ecT) so that we can find out info that will save us from the next 9/11."

You mean like gun control from the liberal left? Isn't that limitation of basic freedoms as well? And that's your legalized CITIZENS that have never broken the law that wants to own a firearm. I'll tell you what though Bronco and BA--you give me back my 2nd amendment--and I'll give you idiots your 4th.



"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

"Oh that's right, you coach women's football...."

This weekend, you're to be in Seattle Cheering on the Sirens with that ugly azz wig and a skirt that you wore last weekend to our game.

Boy did Bronco look sweet:





LMAO.




"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

"You mean like gun control from the liberal left? Isn't that limitation of basic freedoms as well? And that's your legalized CITIZENS that have never broken the law that wants to own a firearm. I'll tell you what though Bronco and BA--you give me back my 2nd amendment--and I'll give you idiots your 4th."

Please explain to me how your second amendement rights have been affected in the last 100 days.

Please do not include the gun dealers raising their prices on ammo and guns just because they got the Murfs of the world to believe their gun rights were disappearing. those guys are making a hell of a profit of a bunch of gullible idiots.

Sorry, Falc, didnt mean to get you going buddy. Its almost time for you to turn into "INTERNET TOUGH GUY" again...LOL

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"Please explain to me how your second amendement rights have been affected in the last 100 days."


No, read my MF'ing post again, Sh*thead. I said from "the liberal left". I never said anything about your boy the Savior. Although, give him 365 days, I'll bet him and his leftist cronies will get something done about my guns. You bet your left one on that one, Sir Badazz. LMMFAO





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Ok, fine. The Dems have had Congress for over 2 years.

Have you had any problems buying a firearm or semi-automatic weapon at a gun show? How have these "lefties" affected your right to bear arms? Seriously, you are a fukking moron.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"How have these "lefties" affected your right to bear arms?"


You ever tried to own a gun in SF? How about carry conceal permit in the State? That's how. Now here's your ticket to DisneyLand, you'll need it.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Way to avoid the question.

YOu can still buy a gun, rifle or semi-automatic weapon in Cali, right?

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

That's a pretty non-specific question. Nice lawyering.

And it still depends on where--and what you can/can't buy. For example--some of the guns you can buy/own in Idaho (an NRA-friendly state), you can't buy own in California (a liberal law-making state).




"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Whatever. So, your 2nd amendment rights havent changed since the "lefties" took over Congress in 2007, right?

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Bronco wrote-
"After 9/11, people (especially on the right) went nuts AGAIN. It reminded me of McCarthysim, the internment of Asian Americans after WWII, ect. Some of you fukkers are so quick to limit basic freedoms this country was founded upon (4th amendment, basic civil rights, ecT) so that we can find out info that will save us from the next 9/11. What you dont realize is that there is an equal number of people that will battle against your stereotyping and racial profiling and suffocation of the 4th amendment because those are American principles you are trampling over.

I'm un-American? LOL

Yeah, I'm just a guy that studied the Constitution zealously, majored in American political history and in college and currently volunteers his time for a number of philanthropies not to mention practices law, which is, as you know, what makes our country different (and better) than every other country int he world."

https://lists.mayfirst.org/pipermail/bearwithoutborders/2009-April/002860.html

How about that, You better get with your ACLU buds and get busy Counselor.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html

Hope and Change.

THink before you write, d-bag.

I have said all along that I am fine with wiretapping and warrantless searches AS LONG AS they are ultuimately used for National Security purposes.

Prime example - dont use portions of the Patriot Act to eventually convict a NY Governor in a prostitution scandal. Not appropriate and not constitutional.

Dont use it for any crimes or investigations OTHER THAN THOSE RELATING TO NATIONAL SECURITY. That includes murder, rape, theft, ect. No exceptions.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"THink before you write, d-bag.

I have said all along that I am fine with wiretapping and warrantless searches AS LONG AS they are ultuimately used for National Security purposes. "

I must have missed that somewhere in the thread, because other than that reply you hadn't mentioned your love of wiretaps for national security purposes. I guess I'm gonna have to try to read your mind in that large head of yours.

The Kempo Counselor called me a D-bag, I'm flattered.

Bronco wrote: For the record, SF@, I do believe some of our boys did some really horrible things to non-military people in Vietnam/Cambodia/Louse. I dont think it was all "good guys vs bad guys" over there. I'm sure I'm unpatriotic in your eyes for saying that. I would expect nothing less from you.

First of all I am very aware that our boys did some horrible things in isolated incidents during Vietnam. It happens in every war BUT it is not US policy and accepted behavior unlike the HORRENDOUS treatment our POWs received from North Vietnam. I don't consider you unpatriotic for telling the truth.

John Kerry's testimony in front of Congress in 1972 was a complete sham and outright deception. His horrible "free fire" zones which he described as areas the men were allowed to kill anyone at will was complete fantasy. A free fire zone is an area in which no FRIENDLY elements are supposed to be. If someone is carrying a weapon in a free fire zone then they are assumed to be the enemey particularly in an insurgent type war like Vietnam. It never gave permission to fire up some old lady picking rice in a field like the fukded up movie "Platoon". The key element to a free fire zone is uniformed and or armed. Either can be engaged. During war time, if a civillian brandishes a weapon they immediately become a combatant and are fair game.

Free fire zones have a habit of biting back. There are numerous stories of units claiming to be where they were supposed to be (lied to their commander because they were lost or late) only to be fired up by helicopters, fast movers, artillery or other units in a free fire zone. Thats why the honor code is a big deal amongst officers and NCOs. Lying can get you killed in a war.

Keep in mind there is a HUGE AND LEGAL difference between an enemy UNIFORMED soldier and a non-uniformed insurgent. Non-uniformed insurgents/combatants have NO RIGHTS under Geneva conventions. NONE.

Enemy spies (non US citizens) likewise have ZERO rights under Geneva or our Constitution. They can be held indefinitely and after a quick military tribunal can be executed. Never happens but that is the way it is. We lost quite a few spies this way during the cold war and never cried about it. Part of the game.

John Murtha declared fellow Marines guilty without a trial or collection of all the evidence. It was a disgraceful display by a former Marine and US Congressman period. Benedict Arnold was one of our most decorated soldiers in the Revolutionary War before he turned on the US. Murtha can't use his former Marine status as a shield against criticism for proclaiming them guilty before a trial.

The truth is after 9/11 we had no idea what was next. Most felt another attack was coming and there was. The decision to used enhanced interrigation on a few of the known leaders prevented one attack in Los Angeles and probably saved American lives. The big difference is these guys were insurgents not wearing uniforms. They were not protected under Geneva Conventions. All of the bad guys we interogated still have full use of all of their body parts unlike Sen McCain or Adm Stockdale who had his eardrums ruptured by the Vietamese. Big difference.

If you ever saw the movie The Great Escape, at the end the Germans executed all the prisoners that escaped and were NOT wearing some type of identification that would prove they were enemy soldiers. The Germans got away with this by returning the escapees to the Gestapo, not the prison camp. The Gestapo then demanded they prove they were soldiers by showing any ID like a dog tag or uniform. Most could not. The fact is they had every right to execute them as spies under Geneva.

The reality is CIA will now not interrogate captured supsected or actual terrorists with any force and the terrorists know this. A good friend of mine who just got back from Gimto tells me there are no interrogations going on since Obama became pres. Any new prisoner would not be interogated with any type of forceful methods. That may make many happy and put us on the high ground but if there is another bad attack that can be linked to insurgents in custody, Obama can kiss his second term goodbye.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.