If you would not have had the 2 stadium deals, there are 2 teams that got new stadiums paid by tax payers, not just one, and both teams have failed to live up to the promise of winning.
Anyway, if you did not have those deals, you would be left with a small midwestern city, that has little chance of drawing any kind of highend revenue.
The Zoo, is great, but how many other major cities have Zoo's?
The muesems are great, but who does not have art in thier city?
The Music is the same as every place else.
We had a Riverboat attraction, but that has pretty much died.
We have some nice high end steak and seafood places, but who doesn't.
We do have one of the best Childrens Hospitals in the world and a few little local deals like Skyline and Larosas.

So a hospital and a couple of places to eat....that about sums up the current value of the city.
You have the potential to be a great Riverfront city and be a huge draw for residents, but that will never happen here.
I am a very optismistic person, but real life has to sink in at some point and there is not much hope for this place, when you see who is running it.

Lets just look at the Slave Muesem, and YES BA, that is exactly what it is.
Good idea? I get it, considering the role this area played in that time, and understand the reason for wanting it here.
I don't get why it was forced on the Riverfront on property that values on the extreme highend.
We did not have a chance to vote on it, and we did not have a chance on deciding to keep it open with tax payer dollars.
When the thing was opend, you had all of the top black celeb types here and called it a historic event and a great thing, but for all of the tears and celebrations, came little financial help, so the bill got passed on to the tax payer and the bills keep comming in b/c the place can't support itself.
I have no problem with the muesem, I have a problem with its location and the lies that were told when it was being thrown up in a hurry before the tax payers could stop it.
The reason it was built in that big of a hurry and it that location, brings me to another obvious point about the city, we acter to the Racist Revs and racist idiots like Chris Slitherman, the local idiot for the NAACP.

These people ran around town screaming for the residents to vote down a jail tax, without even understanding what was involved.
The idiots came out of the woodwork and voted it down.
Since the Deveroes shoping spree (a 3 block riot or party..whatever) after Timothy Thomas was shot, the city council coward to the Rhymin Revs and the racist leaders of the Black Panthers and NAACP. Since then, violent crime has gone up over 80%.
The Cops are handcuffed by the CBA, set up by a liberal idiot from the Federal Gov't. You can no longer profile criminals, b/c that was working and criminals were being sent to prison. Hamilton County has more diversion programs for criminals than any other justice system in the region. Yet, on the tax bill, a very large, liberal agenda of a justice system, would have been put Hamilton County Courts above everyone else in this region b/c of the drug/alcohol rehab programs they were setting up within the courts jurisdiction.
That eliminates a large portion of our weekend beds held down by drunks and addicts and the real criminals can spend time in jail where they belong.
For those of you who don't live around here, I will give you a quick run down of recent deals here.
A 13 year old girl was raped and killed about 2 football fields away from her house, her lower body was torched so that they DNA would be lost. They got the guy that did it before they even found the body. He was a repeat sex offender with warrants out for him. Was living in a rehab home in OTR that houses sex offenders from all over the STATE..another brilliant idea.., so instead of this guy, who come to find out, has killed 5-6 girls the same way, sitting behind bars, we sent him to a diversion program isntead of jail..and now these girls are dead.
A 17 year old girl was raped at 10:30 am in a park called Lytle park, it sits between 4 huge office buildings! The puke that raped her, should have been in jail and not on the streets.
A 15 year old boy, just shot an 18 year old in the face, 30 yards away from a childs baseball game, that was being played 300 yards away from a police station.
you have had over 15 home invasions in the past 3 weeks. 2-3 shootings every night.
We have no jail space, and not enough cops to do the job that needs to be done to protect the citiznes of this city.
So what do we get from our great Mayor? A 200 million dollar street car idea, that would run you from the river to UC, up Vine Street.
So let me understand this, you want to ignore the need for jails, but you want us to apy for a 200 million dollar stret car, that would carry people thru the heart of the worst area in the city, to a campus that is not much safer and has very littel around it to attract other people than the college kids?
Brilliant idea, just like closing down the gov't housing in the West End and moving the people to Price Hill/Westwood and Fairmount, for new condos that were going to energize the downtown area...lol, that worked, now you have 6 extremely dangerous areas of town instead of 3. Thanks liberals, you ae the best.
We are still wating for the Banks project to get started, but we can look across the River to see the people in Kentucky building things like Newport on the Levy, Covington reshaping the entire Riverfront, and we have 2 stadiums with a ton of parking and a concrete business, oh, I forgot, we have that safe park on the waterfront too...only has been a crime scene a few hundred times since last summer.

We voted down Casino's 3 times, and that is a great idea, lets allow Indiana and Kentucky to keep all of that money and we can stand by our morals on gambling and cry that we don't have enough money to operate a city.

We have the worst school distric outside of Washington DC.
We have higher taxes than anyone else in this region.
We have closed down 25% of the small business bars b/c of the smoking ban.

Add all of this up and remove the stadiums...You have the armpit of the country.
It was a great city, but the idiots that we voted in, killed it and the only thing bringing it back is the voters waking up and stop electing officials based on racial issues or single vote issues.
We need to remove the shadows that hide behind the cowards in City Hall and start building things that will draw the money and not the criminals.
The Banks should have been up several years ago wihtout gov't housing earmarks and more parking. we have enough parking and we have enough gov't housing.
Start catering to the hard working class that will spend money in places that are worth driving downtown for.

Now..do you want to tell me how great the Zoo is again and debate me on the reasons you had a massive white flight over the past 10 years?

I love my area, but I will be moving soon, the gov't purchased a bunch of housing in this area, and within a few months, crime shot up, amazing how that works. I will stay in this region, but move further outside of the city limits. Unless a miracle happens in the next 2 elections. Yet, we all know who is getting the votes, and we all know, Detriot South will stay course.


"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

But Murf...

Several things.

When I lived in Cincinnati in the 70s and 80s and once again in the 90s, white flight had already happened. Madisonville, Bond Hill, Norwood were places to work, not places to live. We all moved to Milford, Mason, Lebanon, Hamilton. The reality of the situation is the crime in the streets and the fact that naturally people want to live in a place with like people drove people away.

I live in Dallas. We have a whole part of the city we cannot go into after dark. East Dallas is a mixture of hispanic and black majority and a lot of the money has left and nothing is there but despair. In the middle of that mess we have the state fair and the Cotton Bowl. No one wants to go there anymore because of the run down conditions. South Dallas has become a virtual wasteland of liquor stores, cash checking stores and bars. So everyone moved out to the north and far east parts of the suburbs. Now guess what-- one of those suburbs Plano which has about 300K people has had multiple teeenage deaths due to heroin overdose, part of the city is overrun with crime and old torn up buildings and the same issues that confront poorer parts of the area are now hqappening there as well.

So I don't understand the projects that Cincy is doing but I don't ever remember going downtown after hours much in Cincinnati. Dallas is a much bigger city but they struggle with the same issues. But Dallas has high rise apartments going up and they are adding retail and trains to get people back in town.

And... we have to help people. Folks are hurting man-- you have to take care of them qnd give them a sense of purpose before you just throw them out on the street and tell them you don't deserve any of these perks. But adding more crime laden things like casinos does not help. Go to Vegas and look around off the strip and see what gambling does to communities. What ever happened to government that used tax breaks, incentives and creativeness to bring business and jobs into the area? That is what the whole state of Ohio needs. It is even worse in Cleveland and Columbus has a lot of the issues you guys have.

Prayer is the answer for what ails us...

Peace

The only time I ever go into Dallas is when family wants to see where Kennedy was shot, the Galleria, or to watch Mavs game (suck)

We spend much more time in Fort Worth. It is cleaner, better dining, nightlife, and safer than Dallas.

But I agree with Murf - I will not move back to cincy for alot of the reasons he states. There is still alot of backward thinking up there.

 

"So I don't understand the projects that Cincy is doing but I don't ever remember going downtown after hours much in Cincinnati."


OK, I know I've stated some of this sh*t before--but allow me to repeat.

Murf, you have mentioned all the revenue that the games bring in. BS. What is there to do downtown before/after the game other than tailgate? Is there anything around the stadium to help you party? Can you hang out anywhere after the game? There is nothing to do but go to Covington/Newport. And that brings us to.......

WTF has the City of Cincinnati done to the waterfront other than the stadiums? Instead, you have to go over the bridge and river to get to where the real party is. You can blame city counsel for that hot mess? WHY? Because all those retards do is sit and argue with each other. Meanwhile the downtown area struggles to develop, and real people keep on moving farther and farther away from the city. I-275 isn't even the extent anymore. It's Mason or other surrounding counties. Whatever. Downtown is dead. Areas near downtown are dead. Deal with it, right Murf?





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Its truly sad that there is so much division in our society. So much fear and mistrust between economic classes, races, religions, orientations -- you name it. These divisions are going to be the downfall of America. I can understand people wanting to move away from crime and drug addiction, but there's so much more than that pushing people apart. Most of us do indeed want to live in a safe place with like-minded people. However, these factors can't explain all the hatred and fear we have right now. Its really a depressing situation in many major cities in this country. Our society is headed down the tubes and its not because of gay marriage or MTV. Its because so many of us hate and fear the people around us and it brings out the very worst in everyone.
As far as prayer providing the answer, I'd just as much expect to get an answer from prayer than I would if I took a crap on the sidewalk and waited to hear what it had to say.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

" I can understand people wanting to move away from crime and drug addiction"


If people want to move away from it they will have to go to a deserted Island because there is just as much if not more drug addiction and crime in the burbs, walk into any high school in America and you can buy one of the most addictive drugs Oxycontin available within 5 minutes. I'd be willing to bet that there is a substantial higher percentage of true drug addicts in the rich all white schools than schools in the hood. right now middle and upper class oxycontin addiction is at epidemic proportions.

Right now there is a race between the manufacturers of Oxycontin and Heroin to get their products to the street and its a dead heat.

------------------------------------------
In Memory of Darren

I think it is whites wanting to live w/ other whites and as soon as a non white moves into the hood they pack up and get out.

I have lived in many cities and the current neighborhood I live in is nice. However we have the typical white trash family and the typical black family that both are going to bring our neighborhood down. It makes me think that I will spend extra money next time to live in a gated community.

I dont understand people...your home is the biggest investment...why do you not want to take care of it.

"Go to Vegas and look around off the strip and see what gambling does to communities. What ever happened to government that used tax breaks"

Huh? My neighborhood is nice. Most places in Vegas are gated communities and HOA's keeping things looking nice. If you go down to the ghetto near the Strip, well, that is somethign different. Then again, there are nice high rises down by the Strip as well.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

I dont dispute much of what Murf has to say on that issue. However, I will tell you that it doesnt matter how many jails/prisons you build, they will always be over crowded.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

I would NEVER vote for a tax increase for a prison until the law was changed from prosecuting mandatory minimum sentences for nonviolent drug offenders, in particular, marijuana users.

Gee Murf you are so right. Downtown Cincinnati is really spiraling into a cess-pool of anarchic drug addiction and crime.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090514/BIZ01/305140033/Report++Downtown+improving

LMFAO! Oh wait, that is just what it seems like when you rely on the news and Bill Cunningham for your worldly perspective rather than actually going downtown. I live closer to downtown then you Murf and I can honestly say that I have no fear of being robbed or randomly shot -- not saying it won't happen cuz it could, there are no guarantees in life.

Those 2-3 people getting shot every night (complete exaggeration on your part by the way), they are not just random family people hanging out at the library Murf. They are almost always people buying or selling drugs or someone that did something really stupid to piss off someone they shouldn't have. I know they don't bother to mention that in local newscasts that are completely devoid of any context that would help people put things in perspective, but that is absolutely true.

And completely agree with Medic about paying taxes to imprison non-violent weed smokers. What a waste of my money. The same year that Cincinnati wanted the tax increase to build a new jail city council passed a law that would make weed more criminalized than in the rest of the state. Sheriff Simon Leis pushed for it through retired cop and council member Cecil "Uncle" Thomas. It was about a month or two later council passed a big tax increase cuz they said they couldn't house all the criminals in the city. What a bunch of maroons! Fortunately local activists -- conservative and liberal -- got it on the ballot so the people could have a say. The city could reduce overcrowding by reforming laws, beefing up the prosecutors office and public defense, and adding a night court so people could get in front of a judge quickly. This would keep people from being held in jail for no reason except that they can't get in front of a judge. I would vote yes to implement these measures, but more jail space for weed smokers? No thank you.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

"As far as prayer providing the answer, I'd just as much expect to get an answer from prayer than I would if I took a crap on the sidewalk and waited to hear what it had to say."

You just compared god to a piece of crap on the sidewalk? Thats not very sensitive to people who pray.

I dont think its very sensitive to people who crap on the sidewalk...

wow...

Cincy---2-3 shootings a night is worng? LMFAO.
that is about as accurate as it gets, that number would be on the low end. News Flash, I hang with a ton of Cincy Cops, and I hear the stories every single day from them, and the news does not report half the crime that goes on in this city.

On to your downtown is safe, make believe world..
True or False...in the past 14 days...
You had a young girl raped on weekday morning in the middle of 4 office buildings?
You had a lady shot by a stray bullett.
You had a retaliation shooting the next day?
You had a security guard beatin half to deaht for five dollars in a parking garage.
You had a store owner hit in the head with a gun.
You had a man and wife attacked at the bus stop after having dinner downtown.
You had another home invasion last night in Avondale, and several in the Price hill area.
You had another store held up in GreenTownship...(western Hills)

Helloooooo, anyone home?
WTF do you mean, safe?

I live five mintues away from downtown, my shop is in OTR, across the street from a murder scene, and I spend a ton of my time in that area, if you think that is a safe area, then you need your head checked.
I have watched my childhood hood, go from bad, to beyond help.

Casinos...Don't believe the bible thumping idiots on the crime rate around casinos.
Drive down to Indiana on any give day, packed full of cars from Ohio, very clean, very safe, and huge tax dollars being sent to the local gov't.
So why not, have it here? Downtown? Move the slave museum to the Terminal, and use that building to start with.
Easy fix, huge revenue winner and you replace a failed concept.

The Riverfront...they are going to screw that up, b/c they are placing a rider in the contract to build so many CMHA units.
So who in the hell, wants to go to the Banks and look at gov't housing units and deal with that b.s.?
They want more parking, how about some business that will maybe bring in people to fill up the emtpy parking lots now?

The Jails...hate to break it to you guys, but there is less than 10 people in the Hamilton County Justic Center for smoking weed.
Yes, the idiots in city hall tried to force some kind of new law on weed, but the judges and cops are not pushing the weed issues right now.
That is a myth that the jail is filled with weed smokers.
There is used to be a drunk tank, and that is pretty much out there too.
They force people into a diversion program more and more and less time in the justice center.

Cops can't keep up with the rotating door down there.
They can nail a guy at 6:00pm and then turn around and nail the same exact dude around 10:00pm, happens all of the time.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"WTF do you mean, safe?"

In the last two weeks you were able to reference 8 serious crimes in an area with a population around 2 million. Serious crimes in the city decreased last year by 12%, but you say the cops are not allowed to do their jobs b/c of liberal policies and criminal activity is emboldened by an overcrowded jail.

And even though weed smokers are not often sentenced to prison terms, they still spend time arresting, booking and charging them, time that cops could be available for more serious crimes. Further, the time spent in jail and especially in court is a diversion of resources. The court system is strained under a lack of resources in Cincinnati, and every kid that gets caught smoking a joint that has to appear in front of a judge only ties up our legal system more, which does contribute to the overcrowding in our jail. Jails are just holding places until someone is sentenced, so if we could process cases faster it would free up our jail and put these people either in a prison or release them if prison is not deemed necessary.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

I am not debating you on the weed thing, I think it is waste of time and resources and so the do the cops.
I am debating you on this downtown thing.
The violent crime is down b/c the problem has been removed and sent to the hill.
Price Hill/Westwood/Farimount is now the battle zone. The violent crime, is not down, the violent crime reported is not down 12% either, that is a false number...trust me on this.

They took cancer from the leg and moved it to the arm...it did not go away, just moved into another area.

The city of cincinnati has small pockets of great areas...Hyde park is a great place, for now, the city wants to place some CMHA and HUDD housing there too.

Where I live, we had a great area, young families raising thier kids in a small Catholic School, and everyone had nice safe feeling about allowing thier kids to jump on bikes and go around 2-3 blocks to a friends house.
Now...kids being assaulted at Burger King, one kid punched in the face getting an ice cream at UDF, a mother attacked at fith third getting money out for the festival across the street.
An old woman had her purse snatched from her arm to badly, she needed medical attention on her arm.
It all started when the empty homes, went to the gov't.
I told my wife, the first time I watched a Grey Van that read CMHA, that we would start having problems. Five homes pruchased by CMHA.
6 months...my kids mikes were gone from a locked garage, plus my lawn mower and some other small tools.
Police made 35 runs to the 3 homes in the cudelsac, for loud noise and domestic violence.
Watched cops tackle some dude in my front yard at 3am.
I moved...a few blocks away...not a single issue! Still in the same area, just an a dead end street that we watch very closely.

Cincy...the liberal council, killed this city. That is not a slam on the liberals, that is a fact.
They bent over the table and allowed Damion Lynchmob and Chrissy Slitherman have had it, and did nothing about it.
they had the same alliance with Reece and Coles, and had Tarbell/Luken/Cranley/Crowley all scared to death to defend the community.
It was pathetic and this is the end result.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

well Bronco, you and BA are a piece of work. The only thing offensive is if you think its offensive. and this came on the same post that BA preached division is the downfall of America.

Murf for calling me a bible thumping idiot. That is real concise and shows your intelligence. Anytime you want to debate or try to outsmart me, let me know. I know 1000's of cops as I am a telephony and radio engineer but that doesn't let me understand what is real and fake on the crime. But I do know that just because they put a casino in a cornfield does not mean that a city casino would not have crime. In fact look at Atlantic City. Windsor, Ontario and the housing around the casinos in Vegas.

BA and Bronco-- that is insensitive. But I wouldn't expect much less from liberals who still can't figure how they got here or what their reason for being here is. God rest your souls...

Peace

I didn't criticize god, religion, or anything else. I simply expressed my conviction that "prayer is the answer" as a solution is utterly unproductive and has no support as a means to enact change. Zero, zilch, nada. And that's a fact. May as well pray to the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. "Prayer is the answer" is about as helpful as murf's "don't worry, be happy" approach to NFL football.

"liberals who still can't figure how they got here or what their reason for being here is."

I feel very comfortable with my existence and my place in the world. I don't pretend to know the answers to life's mysteries, but I sure as hell am not going to accept some obviously fabricated ancient text as my reason for being. Worship how you like, but don't expect others to accept your delusions.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

This from a guy who thinks the Christianity is the first/main religion because the "Bible said so"...LOL

To be honest, I am not God-less or an atheist like you try to insinuate, I just dont believe in your version of a SpaceGhost God.

I always wonder why players on teams that finish in second place never thank God on tv. I guess God hates them...they must be losers...God hates losers...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

God only approves of 1st place that's why bronco.

bronco, what is your opinion of the prayer circles that players form on the field after the NFL games? The ACLU should step in and have them banned all together.

Peace and Homer -

A) Liberals hate Christianity because it is the one thing (they percieve) standing in the way of their agenda.

B) Liberals preach universal tolerance, but their tolerance is relegated only to those with whom they agree. 

The thing is that they are free to mock God all they want, and he loves them enough to give them the freedom to do it.  However, our lives are finite, and we all have to stand before God someday and answer for the things we said and did on earth. 

I am fine with what ever you guys think is right. I am not here to judge you. But you always tell me that my beliefs are a fantasy.

I want you to think about some things if it is all a fantasy:

What year is it and what does it mean?
What is your purpose here on earth?
How did we just end up here with a place that supports our bodies? Do you really think the Big Bang or scientific belief is could create all of this?

Anyways, I will never stop believing that prayer answers. I could give you some examples in my own life but you don't think that God can help you.

You know I hope you are right. Because if you are, you have nothing to worry about. This life is all there is and when you die it is over or you become someone's dog? What I believe is this is a temporary place where I am judged by a God who blesses me abundantly.

And Bronco, if someone thinks God hates them because they lost a contest, then isn't that the defintion of shallow?

Funny you guys say that the book is made up. But it has been proven by historians, scientists, lawyers, scholars. It is the book of life and human tragedy. Read stories about Job, David, Paul, John and you see suffering due to the hands of folks that think evil is king. God gives us a choice and gives us an opportunity for real peace. But we choose artificial stimulation, greed, porn, murder, rape, fear, loathing, lying, stealing, etc.

For 5 minutes I would like to see God's view of the world but frankly I don't think I could handle the sadness of watching people hurt each other.

Peace

shalom....seriously, was not attacking you at all.
I understand that you are a christian and you are anti-casino, whatever, my comment was not directed at you at all.
I call a ton of people bible thumping idiots. I was making a general point.
So if you took that to heart, I do apologize, no disrespect intended at all.


I see a ton of hypocrits that stand behind religion, but will not see real life facts.
If a 35 year old man, rapes a little boy, he is called a pedophile, rapist, child molester and is sent to prison for a day or two and then let out of jail, but forced to notify people for the rest of his life for being a sick and twisted human being.
If the guy was called a priest, he is then moved into a new church with fresh meat and nothing is ever said about it, untill the general population finds out, then he is sent away for a short time, while the church does an investigation, that never comes out in the favor of the victim.

So I am anti-religion, but also very aware of the double standards in society.
When was the last movie ever made that placed the muslim religion in a negative light?
Why is the Christian religions negative actions tossed in your face, but never the religion that has caused more death than any other group in the hsitory of the world?

You can blast the Christian religion all you want, but if you speak in a negative manor about the muslims, then you a racist.
funny how that works...
Typical, but funny.

Cincy---4 shootings last night.
A violent home invasion in Price Hill, where an 11 year old girl was hit in the back of the head with a tire iron.
Do you still want to debate me on the crime in this city?
lol...I told you, I am very connected to a ton of Cincy police..I know the activity, not reported on the news.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

You are right no matter who you are we have a sinful nature. No one is absolved from that fact...

I used to think it as just people like Jim Baker but then Tilton came in and then the Catholics. It is too bad that we as a human race cannot serve and love others as Christ loved us. Try dying for your neighbor, your family and your friends. It is the ultimate sacrifice but one the Savior did willingly...

Nothing against Muslims except they are misguided. They die by taking others lives and then tell us that martyrism is the way to heaven. So sad to see such ignorance as 20$ of the world's population is now listening to the followers of Islam. The Bible says the road to destruction is wide but the road to righteousness is narrow.

Like I said thanks. I am here because I love the Bengals and hate what MB has done. I am not trying to personally attack even him I just want to see change.

Peace

When was the last movie ever made that placed the muslim religion in a negative light?

No kidding, just look at the movie Sum of all Fears. Book had Muslims as the bad guys but Hollywood switched it to easy to hate Euro neo-Nazi folks. Angels and Demons unlike the book changed the assassin clergyman from a radical Muslim, to a Catholic. Look, if you guys don't like religion fine, but why submit to the Muslims yet no holds barred for Christians? In California, kids are forced to pray to Allah in school? If a teacher wears a cross under her sweater, ACLU is on it. Why the difference? Never have received a straight answer except maybe something about what Bush did or didn't do.

Hey Shalom,

I have read both the New and Old Testament.

Have you read the book "Misquoting Jesus" or "Jesus Interrupted" ??



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"bronco, what is your opinion of the prayer circles that players form on the field after the NFL games? The ACLU should step in and have them banned all together. "

It doesnt bother me, its done on a private field on private property. It doesnt have any state or government entanglement...



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Murf,

Set the record straight. People dont care if someone is Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. The problems exists when people of those religions (yes, Muslims too) try to make everyone believe what they beleive and reform the law in that manner.

The crazy sh!t that some Islamic countries come up (especially as it relates to the treatment of women) is mind boggling to me. Those people are nuts. I put them in the same category as the Holy Rollers of this country.

However, people that understand that religion is a personal thing and that everyone has their own spirituality are fine by me.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

I was personally offended by the vile comments comparing God to human waste. I am a Christian and I think both comments were contemptible. But I am also an imperfect being like the rest of you and I have the same sinful nature we were all born with. God created the universe in such minute detail and perfect order that the laws of physics are constant everywhere in it. Even staunch atheists have admitted in recent years that this perfect order suggests intelligent design. I would further argue that if there is a design then there must also be a Designer. God created us with the same level of love and detail. We need only to pay closer attention to see this IMO. Among His gifts to us is our free will. He didn't create us to be puppets. He doesn't want puppets. We're incapable of doing anything for Him that He couldn't do for Himself if He wanted to. So why are we here? What is our purpose? He created us in His own image and likeness so we could have fellowship with Him. He wants us to continue to grow closer to Him so that someday we can enjoy the blessings He created for us. He wants us to bring about the world BA longs for and the understanding bronco seeks. We are His potential heirs.

But each of us have fallen short of meriting those blessings. And, as hard as it is to do, Jesus told us we have to forgive our enemies as His father forgave us. Therefore, as disgusting as those comments were I have to forgive those who made them and not hold it against them. To do anything less does not separate the Christian from those who hate us and think we're a bunch of ignorant, superstitious hillbillies.

" I don't pretend to know the answers to life's mysteries, but I sure as hell am not going to accept some obviously fabricated ancient text as my reason for being. Worship how you like, but don't expect others to accept your delusions."


Well put BA

------------------------------------------
In Memory of Darren

Even staunch atheists have admitted in recent years that this perfect order suggests intelligent design


I believe there may be a higher power like a lot of other people but it drives me crazy when nut jobs try and argue religen based upon what they heard was in the bible, the other day I heard a guy say he knows it is true because its in the bible, that kind of logic is flawed and laughable.

------------------------------------------
In Memory of Darren

Hey JB and Shalom, what do you think Jesus thinks about waterboarding?

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

I'm actually not anti-religion. I think that it can be a great means to bring people together and provide them with a moral code to live by. I like visiting old churches and cathedrals with beautiful architecture. However, I cannot abide when people attempt to push their convictions on others or assume that others should accept their faith-based beliefs. A critical thinker is never going to rely on prayer to bring about change no matter what his/her religious convictions are. A person of reason and rational thought is never going to accept that an event occurred because of "God's will". If your faith dictates that you believe such things that's fine, but don't be alarmed when others take offense.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

"Even staunch atheists have admitted in recent years that this perfect order suggests intelligent design"

I think you mean some sort of design, not necessarily "intelligent design". Bif difference there.



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"Nothing against Muslims except they are misguided. They die by taking others lives and then tell us that martyrism is the way to heaven."

Casting a wide net there,eh Shalom?

I could recite verses in the bible that make your folks look equally as idiotic...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"but why submit to the Muslims yet no holds barred for Christians?"

I can only speak for myself. If someone came on here and started suggesting that we all pray to Allah, rest assured I would have just as much of an issue with that. As far as those general stereotypes you're throwing out there, perhaps the vocal critics of Christianity who appear to be giving Islam a free pass are people who have first-hand negative experiences with fundamentalist-type Christians. There's simply not enough Muslims in America to impact us significantly. If American Muslims were a powerful group lobbying against stem-cell research and trying to force Koran readings into schools, attitudes might well be different.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

Bronco, I can only give you my opinion that Jesus would not be in favor of waterboarding. Jesus went into the worst places, sought out the worst people, and healed them. And after He healed these people He usually told them the same thing, to go and sin no more. His whole life was about forgiveness, after all that's what He came here for, to open up an avenue for us to be forgiven. I'm also sure He's much better at forgiveness than I am. So when I don't live up to His standards, which I sometimes don't, then please don't judge Him because of my failure. And it's not my intention to pretend I have all the answers to every problem. I have read the entire Bible and study it weekly and I believe it is the inspired word of God. And yes you are correct when you bring up events that were done in His name throughout the years. But that was human failure, not divine failure.

And speaking of divinity, yes I certainly do intend to add the word 'intelligent' before the word design. The word design, in and of itself implies intelligence. It's simple logic IMO.

Oh by the way, murf and shalom? Well done! It's refreshing to find people who are willing to apologize when they are wrong and people who accept that apology in a spirit of respect for each other. Mahatma Ghandi said "forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. The weak cannot forgive." We can disagree without being disagreeable

Murf,
I agree with you that the west side has been asked to bear a disproportionate part of the burden from Cincinnati's attempted re-development/gentrification. The whole thing with the street cars is meant to fast-track the gentrification of Over-The-Rhine so that young professionals will move in and turn that part of our city into a residential area for people that work downtown. The second part is to connect downtown and "uptown" the Clifton/UC area. The reasoning is that downtown and uptown are the 2 places in the city that have the most night life to offer. What they want to do is connect them and displace the crime and blight and poverty of downtown to attract more tourism. More tourism downtown means more tax revenue for the city as a whole and should result in better services for everyone.

Unfortunately all they are doing is displacing the problems of OTR and the result is just moving the problems, mostly to Price Hill and other parts of the West-side. Gentrification does not solve the deep rooted problems of drug abuse, poverty and ignorance, it just moves them. I do feel that unfairly sucks for people like you who want to raise a family on the west-side. Though I have never lived on the west-side, my wife grew up off Harrison Ave. in the Westwwod/S. Fairmount part of town and I have heard very disturbing descriptions of the problems there. So, yes, I do wish the city could tackle the problems instead of moving them around, unfortunately it is a lot easier and faster to just move them to a region where they are easier to ignore.

One thing I don't get about what you have said though is that you are very anti housing vouchers and other section 8 programs because they have ransacked the west-side. I completely agree, so why not support the public housing proposal at The Banks and in Hyde Park? These are national programs and therefore the city has to participate, but what the city has been doing is again unfairly burdening the west-side with this form of housing. CLustering section 8 on the west-side has led to a steep increase in drugs and violence in these once proud communities. That is why local Housing and Urban Development board member Pete Witte proposed putting some of the new housing at the Banks and in Hyde Park. Like you he is a lifelong west-sider and Catholic and is tired of his family and community dealing with all the problems this program creates. That is why he proposed putting new housing at the Banks, in large part just to get publicity about how unfair the housing has been for the last several decades. By law HUD can buy housing wherever they want fot this purpose. Unfortunately instead of discussing the unfair burden the west-side has been asked to take on, the media just said it was a stupid idea and they don't like the housing program anyway so it surely shouldn't be at The Banks -- our last expensive piece of real estate. But Cincinnati has to take part in the program, and what Witte is arguing is that by spreading out the housing program we will be more able and willing to deal with negative effects than if we just cluster the housing together. When it is all in the same place it is easier for the other 90% of the city to ignore, which can screw over people like you.

I only know about it because I did like a 90 minute interview with this Witte guy. He is actually a very nice guy, local business owner and came off as pretty reserved and quiet. Not at all a media whore like the press tried to paint him as when he made the proposal. I wish the media and press had done a better job of explaining WHY he made the proposal because without context it does seem kind of stupid. That is what I thought at first too. But after talking to him it actually made a lot of sense.

One last thing, he also told me that he gets calls all the time from people who are pissed off because they have crappy neighbors. Funny thing is, he said at least 90% of the time they are not housing voucher people, just crappy neighbors. He has to tell people there is nothing he can do and that they have nothing to do with it. They still get mad and yell at him though and try to blame him. He actually has a pretty crap job because he doesn't like many aspects of the program either, but he has no leeway on it because it is federal law. He just gets the unenviable task of trying to implement the law in a way that local city leaders will allow, that makes sense for those using the program and is fair to all citizens.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

I don't care if they shove voucher housing in Hyde Park, I think it is stupid to spread cancer, would rather have it contained.
The Banks project is a seperate deal. Here is a project designed to create revenue, and bring in people from sorounding areas.
If you put voucher housing down there, then you just killed any chance of having anything that brings people in. Nobody is going to want to go down there b/c of the voucher housing. Main Street hung for as long as they could, but it was a dangerous place to be at times and people would rather not go out and have a good time with a chance of being assualted or your car getting trashed.

The West Side has been used as a dumping ground for the new downtown, here is the problem, you are hoping on young people moving into the condo's down there and using the trolley or whatever, but there is not a absolute.
the Clifton area has been dead for years, and connecting downtown with Clifton will generate very little revenue.
College kids might use it, but that depends ont he safety and the price to ride, we are talking about college kids here.

I think you need to make the area safe, then build.

Finish the Banks project!
Build the Casino, then use that revenue for the streetcar and rebuilding of OTR.
By building the street car first, you will kill any chance that it has of surviving.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

Jesus would probably be against it but his father would probably be all for it based on some of the things GOD did in the Old Testament. Sinner were really punished by the old school God. Waterbording would have been lame for Jehovah. I certainly fear the wrath of God more than Jesus'. Jesus would have told US not to get involved in WWII or hurt the Japs for bombing Pearl Harbor. He didn't live in the real world and he paid the ultimate price for being naive.

BTW, quoting some of the violent things that took place out of the Bible, which was written from 1900 to 3200 years ago, and pretending that thats how present day Christians behave is ludicrous. Christians are not the ones slamming planes into buildings, beheading people, stoning women for adultery and lobbing rockets into civilians. That $hit is happening in real time by followers of that really peaceful Jesus clone Mohammad ( extreme sarcasm)

The comments about Muslims getting a free pass is correct but it has nothing to do with political correctness but rather fear. Catholics, it particular, refuse to fight back against most slander to their religion while Muslims will put a Kill Order out on anyone who demeans Islam or the Koran. I certainly would be a bit leery of making any derogatory statement about Islam if I were a public figure. You can put a cross in a jar of urine and call it art but if you piss on a Koran or draw a derogatory cartoon about the religion you are fair game for execution by many Muslims based on their CURRENT beliefs. The really sad part is whoever executed you and your family would become an instant hero among most in their religion.



_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

Waterboarding = an interrogation technique whereby water is poured over someone's face (normally the face is covered with a towel or cellophane thereby inducing the victim to think they are drowning (i.e dying).

Torture = causing or the cause of extreme mental or physical anguish.

Hmmmmmm, seems like waterboarding is torture to me. I thought we were above that...




"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Yeah, lets be "ABOVE THAT", and watch innocent people die, just to savor some misguided morals.
Sorry, but if torture, was the only way to save american lives, torture the hell out em, without an ounce of guilt.

Nancy Pelosi had not problem with it, then she did, then she forgot that she knew, then she forgot that she forgot that she knew, then she just blamed Bush.

Here is the deal, this method of so called torture, was used in training of our own troops.
You have to get a grip on what is real torture and what is not torture.
Pictures of naked dudes, is not torture, I don't bleive the water thing is torture.
Piszing on a Koran, is not torture.
Having a big chested woman, show cleavage during an interview, is not torture.
The studies proved in gitmo, that there was little to no evidence of torture, yet, we had American officials, screaming that we were running a torture chamber.
That AGAIN, placed our soliers in a negative light, and gave ammo to the cowards in the caves, to recruit more pople, by saying that the Americans were out to torture them b/c we hate muslims.

The American public does not have the right to know anything about the millitary.
It is bad enough that we have a Vice president that can't keep his mouth shut about secret bunkers, let alone sending out photos of reported toture, so that the media and Pelosi can exploit our troops to gain political favor with ignorant americans.

BA...this is more about the millitary...not politics.

BTW---Cheviot had 2 home invasions lately...an 80 something year old was choked and a 20 year old girl was attacked.
5 shootings last night, a sunday night.

"Yeah, lets be "ABOVE THAT", and watch innocent people die, just to savor some misguided morals.
Sorry, but if torture, was the only way to save american lives, torture the hell out em, without an ounce of guilt."

But its not the "only" way. If you paid attention to any news besides FOX news, you would understand that their is considerable dissention amongst military intelligence personnel regardig whether torture actually works or not (Time for SF2 to chime in with his view I'm sure).

By the way, who said anything about letting innocent people die? I hate to break this to you Murf, but anything short of us nuking Afghanistan and Iraq, innocent people are going to die (and I wont even talk about the irony of that possibility).

There is just one thing I dont understand. For all of my life (at least up until 9/11) people always told me (when I say people, I mean teachers, media, my dad's Air Force buddies, ect) that we, as a nation, take a higher ground on this issue and do not torture other people.

All of the sudden, 9/11 happens and the same type of people who thought interning Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor are now saying that it is the ripe time in history to torture. Why the flip flop? Why is it so important to torture now? Do these people really think that if we torture the combatants that the US will never be attacked again? How short sided is that thought? Its like trying to erradicate a runny nose and not researching how to cure the flu.



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

It's an over-reach to say that Christians don't perform atrocities. They do, and sometimes they do it in the name of their religion.

The Ku Klux Klan has always justified its domestic terrorism as doing their Christian duty. Tim McVeigh considered himself a Christian who was taking Christian vengence on behalf of another group of violent Christian zanies, the Branch Davidians.

Historically, European Christians practiced their barbarism against Jews and Muslims based on their religious ideals. The Catholic Church can't be held to a blemish-free standard by any objective standard. That might very well explain its institutionalized silence on such criticisms today.

And we certianly lobbed some missiles and bombs into civilian populations and committed acts of torture in Iraq and elsewhere. You can debate the scope and the justification, but the facts are beyond argument.

We haven't behaved like Osama operatives, but broad and boastful expressions of superiority, if intended, seem out of line. Religious zealots are dangerous, regardless of the religion.

I am not debating the justification of any religious battles, tactics, or history of murder/rape or torture...I am a very anti-religion person, I think they all are scams and ffed off of people that are brainwashed since birth.

I don't care about torture, or higher ground, or being above anyone.
I see a world that changed in the past 20 years, a world changed by human beings that are retarded, not making fun of them, but honestly stating the truth, they are brainwashed by cowards, the feed off of the ignorance of the people. They don't know anything outside of the garbage they have been forced to listen to.

So whatever it takes to save American lives.
If that is torture, then it is torture, if it by other ways, then have at it, but I don't want my family killed by some cave dwelling coward, b/c we have higher standards.

I never did agree with the comment of....THE BIGGER MAN WALKS AWAY..I live by a complete opposite set of rules and that works out in my favor!

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"I don't care about torture, or higher ground, or being above anyone.
I see a world that changed in the past 20 years, a world changed by human beings that are retarded, not making fun of them, but honestly stating the truth, they are brainwashed by cowards, the feed off of the ignorance of the people. They don't know anything outside of the garbage they have been forced to listen to."

Funny, people said the same thing about the world changing after WWI started, Pearl HArbor got bombed, the Red Scare, Cuban Missle Crisis, Vietnam, ect.

Another chapter in our country's history and the same myopic short sided people freak out and act like the world is ending.

I have said this once before (albeit many years ago on this site), our country's natural defenses pretty much prevent any real conventional type war from really affecting us (let's be real, only China would have a shot at that anyway). The time in this country where we will have suicide bombings will happen. I dont say that to scare anyone or to ruffle any feathers. It just seems to me that its pretty damn easy to make a bomb if you really want to and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to go into a mall and do that.

I'm actually somewhat shocked that it hasnt happened yet, but who the hell knows...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"Funny, people said the same thing about the world changing after WWI started, Pearl HArbor got bombed, the Red Scare, Cuban Missle Crisis, Vietnam, ect. Another chapter in our country's history and the same myopic short sided people freak out and act like the world is ending. "

Doesn't mean its not changing still. If your company keeps losing money every quarter, do you tell the board of directors, 'hey, we lose money every quarter, relax you myopic short sighted freaks'.

Bronco, I guess I just do not know where you get your vigor from when you defend their treatment in light of all the other things you can expend your energy on. I guess if I were not emotionally attached to this country and countrymen, I could stoically say, hey its torture. Anyway, we probably will outsource our intelligence gathering now, that will be an improvement in their treatment.

I guess I just dont understand how blood thirsty some of you are about torture. I am baffled at the idea that some of you still think you can blow people up and torture them and they will eventually stop being a threat to you. LOL

Its worked sooooooo well for the last few thousand years. Never mind getting to the heart of the problem (why are they mad at us in the first placE), let's torturte them and stop their next attack (but what about the next attack and the next and the next?????)

Like I said before, trying to cure the runny nose and ignore the flu...its short sided and myopic and fails to understand the long term effects.

But hey, let's do what Murf said and just beat the hell out of people - because that will make us safer! LOL

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Murf,

I watched the news Sunday night and there was one shooting reported. A guy with a concealed carry riding a motorcycle and it fell out of the holster and shot the woman riding with him. Lol, what a nice date (only lol'ing cuz she was not seriously hurt).

Anyway, where do you get 5 shootings? Are these just 5 reports of guns going off, or actual people getting shot? Big difference.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

I am not sure where I stand on torture.

I agree with Bronco that it does not seem to get us anywhere and maybe gets their ire up even more. Then there is Murf's view and the culture that says only the strong survive.

But me I think it is wrong to torture an individual because I believe there are better, more intelligent ways to obtain intel. Threatening people never seems to work especially in a place where the value of human life is placed much less that the US. Why do we keep trying to destroy their culture and then rebuild it instead of working for democracy and individual freedoms. Let folks see the light and they will find true peace.

We are watching the end times. It is coming down to the end-- Obama is trying to get Isreal to allow a 2 state country (huge mistake), Iran is moving as fast as they can to get nukes, Russia is gearing up to be the stronghold in the region and we sending troops, etc to the area in mass. When the enemy gets strong enough, they will strike in Israel. No amount of ill-fated diplomacy by the US can stop the bloodshed. What we are going through as a country now will pale to what I believe is a state of chaos, rioting and crime never seen in this country. Car bombings, buildings being blowed up, mass confusion, crime sprees (look at the cartels moving in the south of the US) are coming. The world has been in turmoil for a long time and the world is gearing up for a massive war. There is little peace outside of the US and those issues are coming here soon.

Tick tick tick....

Peace

"We are watching the end times. It is coming down to the end--"

Men have been saying that for millenia. If the end of days is coming soon, it will be due to lack of resources, global pandemic, or environmental disaster not moral decline.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

Like I said, and you failed to read it...
I don't care if they get rid of torture, ban it form ever being used..whatever...but I don't believe in this new Mickey Mouse Disney World leadership we have, and I don't believe in teh liberal thinking of rehab and kindness. It simply does not work.

You know the heart of the problem is. It has nothing to do with Bush either...it is the Jews.
We built the Jewish state, he protect the Jewish State.
That is the heart of the problem...so what is you answer?
Diplomacy only works, when you 2 sides that have comon sense and reason.
The Mulsims have proven to not have either of those things to work with, so hwo are you exactly going to have diplomacy?

Iran?
They are gearing up to attack Isreal, not us, they want to draw others into fighting us.
They are in bed with Russia and China, and have even gone as far as going to Central America to house millitary troops with Chavez.

What is your answer? Diplomacy with Rainman?

I hear all of this kindness, and love and stand above them garbage, but never any answers.

If truly torturing someone will save lives...do whatever you need to do to them.

I am not sold on the idea, that we torture...take things a tad bit over the edge at times, but there is nothing more than the water game in any reports that have been released.

Who is going to define torture?
you know the media and the nut job liberals would define torture as anything other than a country club for terrorist.

I think the story is getting out of control.
Obama did the right thing about not producing the photos to the public.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

To be honest I really don't know if torture works that well, I would assume at some point a guilty person would give up the information but on the other hand an innocent person would probably make something up to end the process. In the case of Kallid Shek Mohammad we knew he was guilty so its a tough call. I really don't have any expertise in the effectiveness of torture (in terms of classified material or studies)

Trooper, individuals have committed acts in the name of Christianity but it has not been done or celebrated by organized religious groups as a matter of belief. Tim McVeigh was not celebrated by any mainstream christian religion as far as I can remember. The same can not be said about certain LARGE sects of the Islamic faith. 9/11 was celebrated in many areas of the Muslim world so there is a big difference.

And please, you can't be serious about bringing the KKK into the mix. No mainstream religious branch of Christianity would touch the KKK with a ten foot loaf of blessed bread. More people are murdered by gangs in the US per day on the average than have been killed by the KKK in the last ten years.

Some have argued that the US is above this type of thing but that is simply a lie or rather the statement of an individual with selective memory. US history is filled with example after example of what happens if you get on our bad side. Here are a few: helping the Indians find new homes (the ones that we didn't kill), the widespread torture and mistreatment of Confederate soldiers during the Civil War (yes the south did the same), the catastrophic fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo which killed more than the 2 A bombs, the indiscriminate use of napalm and carpet bombing in Vietnam, hell I can go on. The US is very effective at killing our enemies and just about anyone standing next to them. I witnessed it first hand in Desert Storm. We just bombed the living piss out of them. They never had a chance.

Probably the worst offenses have been our complete disregard for the people in foreign countries particularly in South America. We have propped up more brutal dictators and facilitated more political murders than John Gotti. Is it any wonder those countries don't trust us at all?

BTW, if you don't think we didn't torture any of the spies we caught during the cold war you are sadly mistaken. Not saying its right, just saying the battle cry of "we are above that" is simply inaccurate.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

BA I will choose to listen to the word of God on the end times.

It is true no one knows the day or the hour but the signs that the bible says look for are upon us. I remember some of you telling me on here that it is peaceful now and the world is not in turmoil.

Let's see

Sri Lanka is in Civil war
Pakistan is building nukes at an alarming rate
North Korea is working harder than ever to produce a nuke and a way to deliver it
Iran threatens Isreal and is working wih the help of Choina and Russia to produce a bomb
India and Pakistan are staring each other down
There is wars of genocide in Africa and Asia
The drug cartels threaten the lives of Mexicans and south US residents
China will tire of Taiwan in due course and drive over them like a pebble
There are bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, INdonesia and other places daily

I am missing a lot here but the fact is we are in a boiling point. I am a historian and I see the parallels of WW1 with a lot of skirmiches waiting for a match to set it off. Can you imagine what would happen if Netanyahu or Obama was assassinated?

There is no peace in the world. As we continue to fight His presence and turn away from Him, you will see the peace that we so richly love disappear.

We can disagree-- no arguments. I just choose to believe that the Bible is the inherent word of God. Th center of the conflict is Isreal and will be up until Jesus comes again.

Peace

What is mind blowing to me is the diplomacy chants.
Can you name 1 time, that a muslim cult, sat down with an enemy of that cult, and had a legit diplomatic meeting that resulted in anything other than more car bombings?
Diplomacy only works with 2 stable sides willing to work things out.
The cave dweeling cowards are not here to work things out, they are being told from birth, that God wants them to murder people in his name.
Talking them out of this mission, is like talking to a door to door Jesus nut.
You are just p!ssing into a fan.

The United States gov't, should not be held to a higher standard than anyone else.
I am tired of hearing that, our soldiers get burned alive, and then have body parts displayed in public with people celebrating around them, they have been killed and hung from bridges with women and children dancing in the streets, they have had thier heads cut off on camera and they have been beatin to near death and not havign any medical attention.
That is torture people, not some water game that is being blown out of control by Pelosi and the media.
Not some tasteless pictures by some idiots in a prison camp and not a sinlge shred of evidence in Cuba.

Protect this country, my family and your family at all cost.
China/Russia/Iran/N. Korea/Pakistan/Syria/Lebanon ect...all have major issues with human rights.
We are the only ones that pretend that we do and idiots in congress, want to make sure that we become even weaker.
Transcripts from Bin Laden have pointed out the weakness of the New America, and that was with Bush in charge.
They don't believe that we have the heart to fight anymore and we can be bought.
There is alot of truth to that, and it is scary and pathetic.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"The United States gov't, should not be held to a higher standard than anyone else."

I disagree. I hold us to a different standard. We should set an example for the rest of the world. If you dont see the value in that, there is no helping you (to coin a Murf phrase).

SF2, I can assure you that I am not one of those people who think the US only does "good" things in this world. Far from it. I do think on a hot public issue like this one, the US needs to set an example. Many countries do follow our lead on these issues. HEll, look at NATO on the subject of torture.

Murf, what does torture get you in the long run? Does it bring peace? Does it calm hostility?

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

"The United States gov't, should not be held to a higher standard than anyone else."

I disagree. I hold us to a different standard. We should set an example for the rest of the world. If you dont see the value in that, there is no helping you (to coin a Murf phrase).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I see the value in that, if the rest of the world gave 2 sh!ts about the standards that we set.
There is the problem, it would be great for us to set an example and be followed by all nations or atleast the majority, but the world has changed, and we simply can't play nice while we are being attacked or destroyed. We are the world leader, and the weaker we seem, the weaker the world seems and the radical muslim cowards, will use that to thier benefit. You can't walk into a gun fight, and die b/c you refused to bring a gun to the fight, b/c you wanted to be the bigger man and be held to a higher standard, the only moral to that story is that you are dead.





Murf, what does torture get you in the long run? Does it bring peace? Does it calm hostility?
We don't know, we don't know if torture has saved lives or not, you can't believe anything that you hear on the news, the truth in the reports were hidden and then destroyed, only a few negative reports remained after the massive investigation.
Some reports claim that some methods used, worked to save thousands of lives, in 1 case, in Columbus Ohio.
So if 1 person had to deal with being wet for five hours ro save thousands of lives, yes, torture worked int eh long run of every single person that was not blown up by some whack job reigious nut.
Does it calm hostitlity?
It has nothing to do with hostility.
Lets stop playing paddy cakes with the isue...

MUSLIMS HATE AMERICANS B/C WE BUILT, FINANCED, AND DEFEND ISREAL.
MUSLIMS HATE JEWS.
UNTILL ISREAL IS GONE, THE MUSLIMS WILL CONTINUE TO HATE JEWS AND AMERICA AND OUR PARTNERS AROUND THE GLOBE.
IT IS PRETTY MUCH THAT SIMPLE.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSH/OBAMA, TORTURE OR NON TORTURE OR ANY OTHER MEDIA HYPED POLITCAL HEADLINES.
PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
MUSLIMS HATE JEWS....WE DEFEND THE JEWS.

3 Basic common sense plans of attack to stop the war on cowards.
#1 WALK AWAY FROM ISREAL---not even option,
#2 STAY THE COURSE, BE COWARDS AND ALLOW THE ENEMY TO DICTATE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD DOES.
#3 ERASE THE COWARD NETWORKS FROM THE GROUND UP, KILLING EVERYONE AND ANYONE ASSOCIATED WITH RUNNING A NETWORK, AND BUSTING THEM IN POCKET BOOK AS WELL AS THE MILLITARY STUFF, CHOKING THE LIFE OUT OF THEM SO THAT THEY CAN'T RECRUIT.
TELL EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY THAT HARBORS THESE TYPES OF NETWORKS, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE WIPED OUT IF THEY DO NOT COMPLY.

Or do nothing.
Give huge and kisses and get to know eachother, and embrace eachothers heritage.
Have some understanding about each other.
stop the torture and be the bigger man...you will see it will all work out!

I think we don't do enough.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"I see the value in that, if the rest of the world gave 2 sh!ts about the standards that we set.
There is the problem, it would be great for us to set an example and be followed by all nations or atleast the majority, but the world has changed, and we simply can't play nice while we are being attacked or destroyed. We are the world leader, and the weaker we seem, the weaker the world seems and the radical muslim cowards, will use that to thier benefit. You can't walk into a gun fight, and die b/c you refused to bring a gun to the fight, b/c you wanted to be the bigger man and be held to a higher standard, the only moral to that story is that you are dead."

YOu do understand that we have the most dominant asnd technologically advanced armed forces in the world, right? You understand that maybe with the exception of China, no one could withstand a conventional war with us, right?

Weaker? Who the hell is weaker? Are you blind and stupid? Why do you keep talking about hugging and kissing and "being nice"? We have serious interrogations techniques we use. The enemy combatants we seize are not enjoying spa days and getting their feet rubbed while we politely ask them to tell us counter intelligence. You people kill me with your distorted understanding of what is actually going on.

The most hilarious argument is that some Congressmen (Dems and Repubs) are actually concerned about the Gitmo guys being housed in prisons here because their constituency is concerned. Yeah,. never mind the thousands of rapists, murderers and robbers already housed there, yeah, these idiots from Yemen and Saudi Arabia will take over and fly planes into the warden's office. Jesus, get a grip. If anything, these idiots will be beaten and turned into Bubba's love partner.

"MUSLIMS HATE AMERICANS B/C WE BUILT, FINANCED, AND DEFEND ISREAL.
MUSLIMS HATE JEWS.
UNTILL ISREAL IS GONE, THE MUSLIMS WILL CONTINUE TO HATE JEWS AND AMERICA AND OUR PARTNERS AROUND THE GLOBE.
IT IS PRETTY MUCH THAT SIMPLE. "

Going to have to disagree with you here. Look at all the conflicts around the world, India, Philippines, Northern Africa, Baltics, its all about Muslims not getting along with their neighbor. Isreal may be the excuse, but if they were gone, it would be another conflict somewhere else. If they can't find someone to kill, they start killing themselves.

Bronco, I see your point about setting an example but who follows us? Europe? Australia? wheew.

SF2 would you say those brutal examples saved lives in the long run?

Bronco, I agree. I believe we should set the example and our military for the most part does by far. Our state department on the other hand has so much blood on its hands over the years all in the name of political expediency it is sickning.

Homey, you bring up the ultimate dilemna. Do we have the right to conduct operations like the fire bombings, use of napalm, and carpet bombing knowing that large numbers of innocent non combatants will die all in an effort to prevent more of our soldiers from being killed? Keep in mind most of the innocent are under the rule of dictators like Saddam, Adolph, etc.. So the question is how far can you go? Tokyo and Dresden were slaughters period.



_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

Read this lefty:

http://dennisprager.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2009/04/28/nine_questions_the_left_needs_to_answer_about_torture

Torture very, very good --

-- until you are the one serving, captured, then tortured. Then torture very, very bad. Torture make your enemies even more determined and vengeful. Torture take us back to the dark ages with the terrorists. Torture just plain stupid to anyone with a degree of foresight.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

How does torture take us back to the dark ages? Funny thing is the same people who brutally torture and behead ie. Hamas and the PLO are the same people the Democrats demand Isreal allow to create their own state.

So if you are against Isreal and for the Palestinians you support torture? Or is it that Jews and treasonous muslims (many muslims are tortured then killed by Hamas for collaborating with Isreal) are exceptions to the rule BA?

Is it ok to support countries that torture as long as it is a country that Bush didn't like?

SF2, an enemy of your enemy is your friend.

It would seem to me that we only have direct influence on our country's leaders. Debating what other country's do as it relates to torture is nice fodder, but hardly substantive on the issue at home...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

If we hold ourselves to a higher standard than we should not support those who do not believe in the same standard as it pertains to human rights.

That is why we were never friends with the communist block countries, they did not believe in LIFE, LIBERTY or the pursuit of happiness.

Yeah I know, that's old fashioned.

The debate at hand is torture. You and most liberals think water boarding is torture. It is an unpleasant experience but its not torture. Take it from someone who went thru SERE school in 1984. I guess I should sue the government for torturing me LOL. It was much better than chemical weapons training in 1985 with the Special Forces. 95 degrees in full protective gear than we were thrown in a tent full of CS gas without our masks for 90 seconds. Give me the waterboarding anyday.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

As far as I know only three terrorists were waterboarded. Nobody wants to resort to these tactics but I can put myself into the shoes of those charged with protecting us and at the very least determine that such a decision would be an agonizing one to make. Either decision would, and should cause you to lose sleep.

In either case, Gitmo is the most perfect place to keep these terrorists. Both John McCain and Barack Obama want to close it down. Why? Perception, just a PR strategy and nothing more. What a pitiful excuse for making a bone-headed decision.

And now even the Democrats are balking at the idea of housing these people in U.S. prisons. If we put them in U.S. prisons they will either be beaten to death by American criminals or embraced and protected by the double Muslim brotherhood and heralded as heroes. Either way the prison becomes a more dangerous place for everyone involved, guards, civilian staff, administrators and other less violent prisoners. But a more intriguing question is this. Would these terrorists be given the same amenities and considerations they enjoy at Gitmo? Will they be let out of their cells 5 times per day, given Korans and allowed to worship Allah? Do these battlefield combatants get access to lawyers? Do we treat battlefield combatants like convicted criminals and give them finite prison sentences or do we keep them indefinitely? And if we sentence them what do we do with them when their sentence has been served? Do we release them into the U.S. population and tell them to visit their parole officer within 72 hours or do we buy them a new suit and a free plane ticket to Afghanistan?

"Torture very, very good --

-- until you are the one serving, captured, then tortured. Then torture very, very bad. Torture make your enemies even more determined and vengeful. Torture take us back to the dark ages with the terrorists. Torture just plain stupid to anyone with a degree of foresight."


Yo BA--which Metallica Song is this??!!?!?!?!?!?!? LMMFAO.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

I agree it's hard to put this whole topic in a relevant focus, but I hold the neocons mostly responsible for that.

The United States has a long record of considering waterboarding as torture, and has gone on record condeming other countries for performing it.

The previous dolts in the White House protested for years that they were not engaged in torture. Now, that the cat is out of the bag, they have flip floped to saying that it was needed.

And the previous administration shamefully villified common soldiers for performing torture techniques on common prisoners. That development, despite exposing the ultimate irony of how anti-military the previous idiots were, also poses new questions.

Among them are: Who did these common soldiers learn these stunts from? How many prisoners were authorized for torture? How often were they tortured? What was the total chain of command for authorizing this torture.

I would respect the righties position a lot more if all that was on the table were three or four 9/11 type conspirators who were being interrogated with probable cause that another attack was imminent.

None of that applied in Iraq. And I suspect that none of that applied with most of those picked up in Afghanistan.

I'm totally admitting I don't know the facts and circumstances of every torture case, authorized or otherwise. But the blind supporters of the Bush mafia don't know them either.

This whole issue is long, long overdue for some transparency. Bring on a truth commission and lets get some hearings scheduled and some people tetifying under oath.

"previous administration shamefully villified common soldiers "

Troop, which side do you really think did more villifying of the soldiers?

I would respect the righties position a lot more if all that was on the table were three or four 9/11 type conspirators who were being interrogated with probable cause that another attack was imminent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You don't know who is a coward and who is not, that is the problem. They hide within the innocent, and the for the most part, the innocent, are too scared to point them out.
You guys keep believing that we are fighting a war vs a country, with a millitary, that is wearing uniforms.
These cowards hide in plain clothes and often use children as a shield.
The war games have changed, and if we don't change, then we lose.
We can't help the fact that the enemy has gone from evil to midevil, but we can't play the NATO Nice game and follow the rules, when nobody is.

I have said it before, if everyone else would follow the rules, then great, but these animals, don't care about your morals, or your human rights policy, or anything on the table.
So, you have to take your morals down a notch and play the same game.

It is basic common sense.
If we got into a fight, and I was allowed to do whatever I wanted to you and you had to follow a certain amount of rules, don't you think that you would lose or atleast have a major disadvantage?

Plus, I don't think the millitary/FBI/CIA/ATF/HSA, should ever reveal in house investigations.
Even if there was evidence of mass torture going on, it should never be released to the public.
We don't need to know what is going on behind clsoed doors.
Plus, the media has proven that it can not be trusted with information, too many would twist the facts all around and you would never get the complete and honest sotry.

It is time for the country to move on, they did a huge investigation in Gitmo...found nothing.
The lead group said that they most they could come up with was some basic forms of bad behavior by some gaurds..oh well.
Some dude got pushed around, another dude got tazed for not complying to walk, and some other minor details of that.

I am sure the Iraqi prison was much harsher, and probably had some questionable tactics, but seriously doubt that you had torture chambers anywhere.


"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"...if everyone else would follow the rules, then great, but these animals, don't care about your morals, or your human rights policy, or anything on the table. So, you have to take your morals down a notch and play the same game."

Once again murf, who are "these animals"? The problem is, we don't always get it right when we are trying to decide who are the animals and who are not. Your misguided use of broad stereotypes over-simplifies the picture and is dangerous. Lynch mobs used to take "morals down a notch" when they thought someone did something wrong. Terrible mistakes are made when this happens. You don't adjust your morals when you have the best set of national morals out there. Torture lowers us as a country, makes us less of a shining example to other nations. Like it or not, America has thrived on being the place that has higher standards than the rest. We will not stay on top if that image is permanently tarnished.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

Once again murf, who are "these animals"? The problem is, we don't always get it right when we are trying to decide who are the animals and who are not. Your misguided use of broad stereotypes over-simplifies the picture and is dangerous.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Misguided stereotypes? I guess you fail to udnerstand the exact hatred from across the pound.
Let me rehash a few facts..not stereotypes or misguided comments.
MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE ON EARTH THAN ANY OTHER GROUP/NATION OR INFECTION.
MUSLIMS HAVE CAUSED THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY.
Stereotypes? How about flat out facts of life, and people need to toss out the political correctness about it.

No, you can't single many of them out, but you can place a foot on the throat of the countries that cater to them.
They should allow us to wipe every group or camp out, if not, then we must assume that they believe in the same thing and only hide behind the coward networks.




"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE ON EARTH THAN ANY OTHER GROUP/NATION OR INFECTION.
MUSLIMS HAVE CAUSED THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY."

More murf "facts". Care to provide some support for your statements? Didn't think so. Facts are irrelevant to folks like yourself. Thankfully, although your voice is loud your influence is small.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

"Plus, I don't think the millitary/FBI/CIA/ATF/HSA, should ever reveal in house investigations.
Even if there was evidence of mass torture going on, it should never be released to the public.
We don't need to know what is going on behind clsoed doors."

So how about your hero and fellow torture supporter Dick Cheny calling for the release of classified memoes containing sensitive national security information? I assume you do not support that right? I personally feel it would make the country less safe if out-of-work former government employees can bully the government into releasing sensitive national security information, and I hope the pres. does the right thing for America by not releasing information to the public and media about possible terrorist attacks.


And I am not convinced of your assertion that Muslims have killed more people than any nation or institution or disease.

Stalin killed 60 million of his own people and was only in power for a brief period in Russia's history. Russia could provide some serious competition if the nation's entire history were taken in totality.

Christians, including Catholics, would have to be up there too. They had a pretty decent head start on Muslims, and the Catholic church is no slouch when it comes to killing lots of people. Plus add in all the Roman leaders that killed people in the name of Christianity, as well as the people that came to the "New World," the Americas, and killed lots of people in the name of Chritianity and making a Christian settlement. Plus all the other Christians who have killed in the name of Jesus, from world leaders to Jim Jones. Add it up and that is a lot of dead people.

And the influenza virus has killed a crap ton of people. Even nowadays with advanced medicine, it kills about 2,000 Americans a year. Imagine how many more it kills in other countries, and how many people it killed throughout history when people would just die and people blamed bad blood or bodily fluid imbalances or curses and all kinds of other ignorant causes. Influenza deaths might approach a billion or more.

I remain unconvinced on that one.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

Cin-C-Star, most of your post is complete and utter nonsense.

Cheney is calling for the release of classified memo because President Buckwheat decided to selectively release certain parts of the top secret memos for the sole purpose of embarrassing the previous administration. Instead of being a President, he is being a petty dirt slinging douchebag. Cheney is trying to defend himself against the "selective" facts. Its really a sad display of childish behavior on the administration's part and is only being done to placate the anti Bush crowd.

Stalin did not kill 60 million of his own people. Not even close. 15 to 20 million maybe. Still a sick number but not 60.

The death toll by the Catholics/Christians is nowhere close to Stalin, Probably not over 100,000 at most. Furthermore, the Christians were fighting the Muslims who at the time were marching on any and every non believer in their path. There is a difference between offense and defense. The Crusades were not nearly as deadly as you might think. Most died of disease or exposure, not combat.

Can you give me examples of when the Catholic Church killed lots of people in the last say 500 years? Oh, there really isn't any is there? Yep, the Catholic Church is bad because they did the Crusades thing 800 years ago. Give me a break.

I really don't know how many people Muslims, in the NAME of Islam, have killed. I doubt it comes anywhere close to 20 million.

So which religion is currently ( thats 2009) doing all the killin? Yeah, I thought so.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

"So which religion is currently ( thats 2009) doing all the killin? Yeah, I thought so."

religion? Or fundamentalist members of a religion?

If you dont think the Catholic Church ordered/authorized/allowed the killing of thousands (if not millions) of people in the last 10 centuries, you are high as a kite.

They might have laid off the death march in the last couple cenrturies, but they sure didnt bat an eye when it came to child sexual abuse, now did they? They are the scum of the earth when it comes to that issue. They knew about it and did nothing besides try to hide it. If any other business or corporation had done the same, the board of directors would BE IN FUKKING PRISON!!!!!!! The Cathoic Archdioceses got off because they were a "church". Utter nonsense...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Sorry but the Church has had little influence in regards to military operations since 1648 which was the Battle of Westphalia. I am not going to get into ancient history because then we have to drag the Jews and their all powerful Ark of the Covenent into the mix. They would march into battle and all their enemies would die. What dicks.

_____________________________________________
January 6,1991: The last post season victory for the Bengals.

"Can you give me examples of when the Catholic Church killed lots of people in the last say 500 years? Oh, there really isn't any is there? Yep, the Catholic Church is bad because they did the Crusades thing 800 years ago. Give me a break."

How long has the Catholic church been around? I wanna say going on 2000 years or so? So b/c you arbitrarily pick a period that represents 25% of their history and b/c that part is not that bad it means the other 75% of their existence doesn't count?

I thought the assertion was that Muslims are responsible for more human deaths than any other nation/group/disease ever? Maybe I misconstrued Murf's statement, but if not why does the Catholic church get a pass on the bulk of their history?

Here's one battle that resulted in 5,000 Englishman dead. Probably more since subsequent civilian casualties are not included in the estimate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hastings

5,000 is not huge in terms of a present day population count of 6 billion. But it is more than the US soldiers killed by Muslims in Iraq in 8 years, and more than killed by Muslims on 9/11. And this was just one day in 1072. I'm not saying I still hold a grudge against the Catholic church, but they WERE doing $#!t like this for hundreds of years. Can we at least acknowledge the fact?

Last, the Catholic church is just one form of Christianity. I was arguing that Christianity as a whole was responsible for a lot of killing, from David Koresh to the Popes. After all, no one is arguing that Sunni Muslims are the top killers, thus far, its just been Muslims.

I doubt the Catholic church is the greatest killer in human history though, but I also doubt that it is Islam. I still say its the flu, but that's just a guess and I'm willing to bet that anyone that claims to actually know the answer is full of it (sorry Murf).

That's why I don't really see the point of claiming that Muslims are the worst killers of all time. Jews have killed, Christians have killed, Muslims seem to be on quite the killing streak right now admittedly, but of course they are tallying Christian killings right now at least as fast as we are. And Africans and Europeans and Americans and Asians have all killed people too. Doesn't it make more sense to just say that individuals are responsible, and all individuals regardless of anything else should be held accountable?

There are also Muslims in America right now that are helping our intelligence to weed out extremists working in America. Some black radical muslims were just busted in NYC. I don;t know if any of the agents were Muslims, but often times they are because there is a trust factor and sometimes language issues. Isn't it doing a disservice to them to say it is a fact that Muslims are the worst killers in hhuman history?



"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

"It would seem to me that we only have direct influence on our country's leaders. Debating what other country's do as it relates to torture is nice fodder, but hardly substantive on the issue at home..." - Bronco

Bronco, this same logic could be applied to your 1000 year history of Christianity. To use your quote, It would seem to me that we only have direct influence on today's leaders. Its starting to bore me, picking out your hypocricies.

...President Buckwheat ... lol wait till BA gets a load of that one.

I was speaking of the past 50 years or so, since we are talking about the present time.
I will not deny any facts about other religions in the past, the Christians killed people left and right in the name of God.

BA...you doubt me, yet provide not a single shred of evidence to dispute me.
NAME 1 SINGLE SOURCE THAT HAS KILLED, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY MORE THAN THE MUSLIMS.

Fact is you can't. You can't spin it, twist it, lie about it, or deny it, and it kills your liberal mind.
What I don't understand about idiots like yourself, is that you are always crying about finding the answers to the problems of the issues on everything else, but not the most in your face issue on this earth.
Why is that?

You make excuse after excuse for idiots all of the time and try to find someone else to take the blame for thier actions, but you ignore the biggest threat to human life on this planet.

Lets just take a stab in the dark here on a few hot spots over the past 20 years or so.
Somalia---muslims killing muslims.
Russia---muslim killing muslims.
Iran vs Iraq---muslim killing muslims.
Iraq--muslim killing muslim
Afgh.--muslims
Pakistan---muslims killing muslims
Isreal---Jews being killed by muslims
On top of that, all of the coward attacks.
Now, you still want to dispute me on who has killed more people on this planet?
lol.

"BA...you doubt me, yet provide not a single shred of evidence to dispute me.
NAME 1 SINGLE SOURCE THAT HAS KILLED, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY MORE THAN THE MUSLIMS.
Fact is you can't. You can't spin it, twist it, lie about it, or deny it, and it kills your liberal mind. "

Maybe you don't know how this works. When you make a controversial statement of fact, it is YOU who has the burden of proof. What, is it now my job do dig up statistics to show that your (clearly unsubstatiated) claims are not true? You just flunked Debating 101.

I realize muslims scare you and you see them as one big homogenous "boogie monster". They (whoever "they" are) are all "cowards" in your eyes. You've repeated that ad nauseum. Perhaps you would be best served to do some actual research rather than trust in those news sources you use to form your opinions.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

"Its starting to bore me, picking out your hypocricies. "

LOL, the minute you are able to come up with a non-racist or prejudice thought, please wake me up.

I'm not the one who started the banted regarding the history lesson on Muclims and the point by several posters (apparently) on here that they are somehow woese human beings (all of them of course - you and you buddies always have to stereotype). I merely pointed out actions the CHURCH as a leading (and some would call governing body) has allowed/sanctioned/authorized.

Hypocrisy? Hardly, now aren't you late for your breakfast with the other Klan members? Thank you, come again...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Maybe you don't know how this works. When you make a controversial statement of fact, it is YOU who has the burden of proof. What, is it now my job do dig up statistics to show that your (clearly unsubstatiated) claims are not true? You just flunked Debating 101.
~~~~~~~~~~~

What is controversial?
Did I not point out the murdering facts?
They are facts, how on earth can you even attempt to deny that?
What proof do you need? Do you not watch anything but Olberman and not understand what has gone on in this world for the past 50 or so years?
Seriously, it is falt out scary that you are even attempting to deny the very basic facts of real life here.

Who is blowing people up?
Who is fighting most of the wars?
Who is sending out threats on a daily basis?
Who just tried to blow up a Jewish center and shoot down millitary planes in New York?
Dude, you are mental, if you don't see the proof.

I know, liberals love to say that people who speak the truth are Klan members, but that sh!t got old and tired years ago. I don't fear muslims, that is another liberal comment..Fear..like if you don't like the gay lifestyle, then you must "fear" them..get a grip on yourselves.

I pointed out facts, and liberals try to twist the story around and say that anyone who has concerns over muslims killing innocent people, are racist and scared...
Pathetic..can't debate the facts, so attack with ignorant comments.

BA..I will give you more chance...SHOW ME EVIDENCE, WHERE I AM WRONG.
This will turn out like his attempt at finding me racist...spent hours, and found nothing that pointed to a racist comment, just opinions that he did not like.

You must hang with a very small group of people, b/c I would bet money, that you would get your azz kicked quite a bit in public!

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

Well, that's pretty easy...

The Batttle of the Somme in WWI had 1.5 million casualties alone.

The Soviet Union suffered approximately 27 million military and civilan casualties in WW2.

The single source - nationalism.

- FC

Murf, the problem is you are not differentiating between extreme fanatical Muslims and the basic peaceful Muslim. All you (and Homey and others on this board) do is group them all together as MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

If you had an ounce of perspective, you would understand how incredibly inaccurate, ignorant and alltogether insulting the statement actually is towards Muslims.

You do understand that out of the billion Muslims in the world, the ones causing a problem are less than 1% right? I will give you an example of that. 1% of one billion is Ten Million. There are not 10 million members of Al Queda. You agree, right? RIGHT??????????????????? Jesus, you need to get a grip and start understanding numbers.

And please dont try to defend Homey. He is a real racist and a bigot. In your defense, I think you make stereotypical statements, but I dont think you are in the same league with him.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Fraidy, the debate os over the past 50 years or so.
Bronco...I understand what you are saying, and I am not saying that all muslims are killing people, I think we pretty much understand that.
My point was that the people creating this death toll, are in fact from the muslim religion.


"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

wow, you really are not very bright. Nonetheless, I'm glad I can get under your skin.

"MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE ON EARTH THAN ANY OTHER GROUP/NATION OR INFECTION."

There's your ludicrous assertion murf. Support it. Show me the evidence or STFU.

You are saying that those dratted "muslims" have killed more people than influenza (untold millions across history), polio, cholera (10s of millions), small pox (about a million a year through the later centuries of human existence), bubonic plague (200 million), sepsis, the Christian nations of WWI (12 million) and WWII (55 million) (including the Holocaust and Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.), Chinese An Shi Rebellion (36 million) and Taiping Rebellion (25 million), the Russian Civil War (8 million), and the Mongol Empire conquests (60 million).

"Fraidy, the debate os over the past 50 years or so."
nice attempt at backpedalling, btw.

You are such an ignorant man. You know so very little, but love to spout off and show your foolishness for all to see. Its pathetic but still quite amusing so please don't stop. Despite what you said in my sig, keep on talking politics and making yourself look silly for as long as you like.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

You are such an ignorant man. You know so very little, but love to spout off and show your foolishness for all to see. Its pathetic but still quite amusing so please don't stop. Despite what you said in my sig, keep on talking politics and making yourself look silly for as long as you like.
~~~~~~~~~

Again Rainman, I was speaking about the past 50 years or so and have said that several times in this thread, but you fail to see that or just do your typical liberal thing and ignore the facts.

As you can see, you stated several things that have wiped out humans in mass numbers, now, why do we ignore the modern day threat of coward networks?
I proved my point...I can turn on the tv or the computer every single day of my life and witness the mass murder of innocent people from under an umbrella of a religion. That is what i stated and that is pretty much what is fact.
Despite if the cowards are few, they do claim that they are following the religion of Islam correct?
So how are you attempting to debate this?
A bunch of cowards, that follow a certain religion are killing mass amounts of people.
Nobody is accusing the entire religion of killing people. ( I believe in my heart, many are celebrating the cowards, but never join them).


"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

Starting in 1988....way before Bush...the United States had 193 attacks directed at them.
in 1989---way before Bush....528 attacks directed at the United States.
In that year, over 60 countries were hit by coward attacks.

20 years later...do the math.
It has only increased by 70%!

Get your head out of Olbermans lap, and learn something before you start yammering your jaws!
I could give you numbers fro year to year, but you would just deny the entire thing, and say that it was all Bush lies!
So what is the point?

you can't debate the facts, all you can do is look stupid again.



"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

All you needed to say was that muslim extremists are responsible for the majority of modern-day terrorist attacks. That I would not try to dispute, and would agree with whole-heartedly. Instead, you have to yell: "MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE ON EARTH THAN ANY OTHER GROUP/NATION OR INFECTION!!!"
What a ridiculous and patently false statement. The percentage of deaths attributed to "the cowards" is infintesimally small compared to deaths that have occurred from conventional warfare. The scary thing is, there's probably a lot of deluded conservatives out there who believe that terrorism has caused more than mere thousands of deaths because of all the negative attention that your media focuses on "muslims" as a generic group.
Yes, radical muslim extremists are a threat. Yes, we need to take decisive steps to stop them. No, we did not need to invade Iraq to do that. No, we should not disrespect billions of innocent people by painting them as terrorists who are planning their suicide attack.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

Actually Murf your original claim was that Muslims killed more people "on Earth" than any other group/nation/infection. No time limit or period was given.

Then when myself and others brought up the flu, Christianity, and other mass killers, you added the qualifier of "the last 50 years."

Are you going to tell us next that the "50 years" thing was implied the whole time somehow, and that if we weren't so liberal we would know that you obviously were referring to the completely arbitrary period of the last 50 years?

But OK, I'll indulge you on the 50 years thing.

I am willing to bet that smoking cigarettes has killed more people directly and indirectly in the last 50 years than Muslims. Please prove me wrong, and this time give actual numbers, not just a bunch of Muslims are scary BS.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

It's good to see Fraidy make a post..... gives me a chance to thank him for approving me. So, thank you Fraidy!

You gotta love the

"we should definitely torture them because things have changed and we have a tremendously stronger military than they do and since they (Muslims) use cell phones and the internet and managed to attack us with our own planes for the first time in 50 years, we should definitely use torture now" theory.

Nonsense...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

You know, it is like p!ssing into a fan with this deabte.
Smoking might have the numbers to beat the cowards...congradulations, you found a deadly desease that might rival the numbers of innocent people killed by cowards!

WOW!
I would love to see the support of our troops be as strong.

BTW--of course the time frame was always a part of the debate, since te coward networks did not commonly murder innocent people before then, but I guess when debating liberals, you have to spell out everything!

American Troops---rapist and murderers...from the lefty leaders..Pelosi/ried/Murtha...
Did not say, these 5 guys are accused of doing something wrong, just blasted the American Troops, not much racket in the media about innocent of anything of that sort, or stereotyping the entire millitary for the actions of a fraction of a percent. I don't remember the same poster on here, screaming for numbers to make sure that the millitary was protected and the focus was on this small group, that turned out to be 1 person, and the others didn't even get an apology for being called rapist and killers by our so called leaders in congress.

Muslims kill people---liberals go nuts, you can't lump everyone in the same category, and nobody did, but the debate gets heated quickly and you have people looking up death tolls from world wars and desease to fight the data.
LOL!

Just pointing out the hypocrisy...




"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"Muslims kill people---liberals go nuts, you can't lump everyone in the same category, and nobody did, but the debate gets heated quickly and you have people looking up death tolls from world wars and desease to fight the data.
LOL!"


YOu just did it again...LOL

Who is being hypocritical, Murf?



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

The only argument you ever have that people dont support the troops is Abu Ghraib and the Murtha/Pelosi accusation of rape and murder. Never mind the thousands of days of people all over this country constantly "supporting the troops". You obviously think all of those thousands of days are negated by one or two instances of two people stupidly blaming a few troops for a crime they may not have committed. Yeah, that makes sense...Jesus...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Bronco, replying to Murf is like talking to a drunk. Unless your motive is recreational fun to just listen to more babble, it's not worth the oxygen to retort.

It does strike me, though, this myth about the liberal media constantly badmouthing troops. I've yet to hear a single editorial that categorically badmouths our troops. They certainly didn't use the kind of harsh language W and company used against the common soldiers at Abu Graib.

I do blame our media for not challenging Bush in his phony runup to the Iraq invasion. I think they lost some testosterone in the post 9/11 days, and dropped all investigative analysis in the nationalistic aftermath of 9/11.

But for every accusation of a US rape, I bet there were 10 or more glowing stories about the herorism, sense of duty and competence of our military from all the major media outlets. And don't forget that some of those accusations had merit.

The zany right is so pathetic, it has to invent bogeymen. The insane zany right actually believes in the bogeymen that their zany puppetmasters create.

I still don't buy this bs about Murtha being anti-military. While W and Cheney did their damndest to avoid military conflict, Murtha put his life on the line and served with distinction. It takes a pathetic type of right wing pansie to wrap himself in the American flag and talk blood and guts after others did their fighting for them.

And hey, in response to the challenge of tossing our mortality numbers, even in the context of the last 50 years: How about Viet Nam?

I remember reports (wish I could substantiate them right now) that over one million Vietnames died in that conflict with France and the United States. And of course nearly 60,000 Americans died. I don't think any Muslims were involved in that conflict.

It's a sad and sick irony that we're now trading partners. What pointless tragedy was experienced by all sides.

And I don't think any Muslims were involved in the Pol Pot atrocities in Cambodia. Weren't there millions killed there as well in the late 1970's?

And the biggest Muslim vs. Muslim bloodbath mentioned by Murf was the Iraq/Iran conflict. There's some major astericks there that he didn't mention....although he probably doesn't know them either.

For one, Iraq's government was secular, although Iran's was and is a Shia theocracy. And Iraq's military was subsidized by, and basically operated as a puppet for, the US. We wanted Iran bloodied. That's why Rumsfeld was buddies with Sadam back in the 1980's.

Don't you feel bad that we spilled all that Muslim blood, Murf?

I don't agree with Murf's statements as he does lump folks together. I have a lot of folks at my job in places like India, Turkey, etc. that are Muslim but just because they believe in Allah doesn't make them fanatics of killers. Jusr because they belief in a false God does not make them bad people, just misguided.

But the same thing can be said about Christians. When ever a Christian topic comes up you begin to say look at the Catholics. I got to tell you that although we both beleive in Jesus, we are profoundly different in our beliefs. Did you know the Catholics added books not ordained by God to their Bibles? Fundamentally, my beliefs are much different than a Catholic.

So I suggest to all of you to step back and breathe a little. The fact is unless you have walked in a person's shoes, you have no idea what their real values are. I know mine are in the Bible-- the true one that was translated from the Greek scrolls that were written from 2500 BC-- 90 AD.

Yes there have been deaths due to every religion and the eventual downfall of the earth will be due to religious beliefs. As strongly as some of your feel about gay rights or abortion that sense of persona is nothing compared to the strength in unity of an individual's religion. Unfortunately the world will destroy itself over the fact that the one true God is being neglected in favor of naturalism, pluralism and people who think they are smarter than God and don't need Him. LOL-- He created you!

Peace

Casinos are not a moral issue to most (other than the Bible thumpers) and for the rest of us practicality.

All of the casino deals have been bad so far. In PA for instance the slot licenses were given out to separate owners per being deemed worthy by a committee and much of the tax dollars goes to lowering property tax, which in some places is out of control.

Ohio's casino deals have not been any good, and such as in the case of the last one, the location was only beneficial to the western part of the state, pretty much alienating Cleveland, Akron, Canton, and Youngstown. And also not making it worth any kind of draw from PA or WV.

I would vote for a casino plan like PA or WV has, but there has not been one worthy so far, so I have voted against them.

It's all about being able to read...I can read...most of the Bible thumpers can't!

No, you fail to understand is that so called torture pictures, were front page news for hwo many days?
How many times did people like Katie Curic and her coutner parts refsue to report certain stories about the troops but kep the Gitmo lies going?

You know as well as I do, that most people don't pay a bunch of attention to details and news stories, they hear the headlines, and that becomes fact, and the story gets lost.

It was proven after the 4th year of the war that the media was reporting more negative reports than positive reports.
A so called ICON got fired b/c he ran with a story without any facts, but they had to run it, b/c it made the war and Bush look bad and they had to make srue that the war was an absolute failure to bring in a liberal in the next term.
Just like the liberal congress did everything in thier power to destroy anything positive in the last 2 years of the Bush term.
They made history for not doing anything!

Bronco, c'mon, how smart and stupid can you be at the same time...I saying that if someone makes a braod comment about muslims, you people go nuts, but the borad comments about your own american soldiers, never get the same backlash.

Trooper...we have proven that you are a typical left wing nut job.
You are on the Pelosi/Ried line..100% nuts..

Whatever, you guys can live in your fantasy world, I will live in the real world and that is the grreatest ting about this country. Socialist can dream of one world gov't and we can dream of havinga normal country again, when the days of Pelsoi and Obama are over.

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

murf = FAIL.

Face it, you got your ass handed to you in this debate. As usual, when you can't back up your ridiculous statements with facts, you change the topic and start pointing the finger at liberals. So predictable.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

I know it's like fishing in a barrel to outpoint Murf, but isn't it hilarious to watch his reaction when he gets humiliated? How many possible mis-spelled words, sentence fragments and incoherent and unsubstantiated statements can one individual make?

Murf, pick yourself up off the floor.

I am sorry, you guys mentioned "The City" here. Y'all must be talking about NYC, because there isn't a greater place with that kind of name.

__________________________________________
He also said that Bengals president Mike Brown, along with Lewis, is concerned with the club-record list of players on injured reserve this past season and the team plans to examine the issue.

Where do you get that I got humiliated?
LOL!

My opinion is based on facts of real life.
only you idiot liberal nut jobs, can't see the truth or refuse to see the truth.

Why not the dedicated fight to enhance the reputation of the American soldiers?
All you hear from the liberals is TORTURE/TORTURE/TORTURE...yet after investigations of the so called torture, they have come up with 3 water game victims and nothing else.
So instead of you trying to defend the american millitary, you would rather spend your time defending a religion, that has a fraction of its followers killing people all over the globe.

Christians are attacked on a daily basis, and for good reason some times, and I have no problem pointing out the flaws and hypocrisy of the christian religion, but if you do it with the muslim religion, then you are a racist and bigot and you don't udnerstand it.

LOL!

Liberals are funny, yet it is scary to think, that this mindset is controling the globe right now!



"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"No, you fail to understand is that so called torture pictures, were front page news for how many days? How many times did people like Katie Curic and her coutner parts refuse to report certain stories about the troops but kep the Gitmo lies going? "

---Are you still talking about something that happenmed in 2005? Is thatyour best argument? Give me a break...What stories did Katie refuse to report? Link please...


"It was proven after the 4th year of the war that the media was reporting more negative reports than positive reports."

--- Link please...


"A so called ICON got fired b/c he ran with a story without any facts, but they had to run it, b/c it made the war and Bush look bad and they had to make srue that the war was an absolute failure to bring in a liberal in the next term."

--- What did Dan Rather's firing have anything to do with the troops?? Seriously??????????


"Just like the liberal congress did everything in thier power to destroy anything positive in the last 2 years of the Bush term. They made history for not doing anything!"

--- Please explain how the big mean Congress made poor Dubya's reign in office powerless? How many vetoes did they override? How many times did Bush not sign legislation? I cant wait to hear this one...LOL!

"Bronco, c'mon, how smart and stupid can you be at the same time...I saying that if someone makes a braod comment about muslims, you people go nuts, but the broad comments about your own american soldiers, never get the same backlash."

---What broad comments about the troops in the media? What the f*** are you talking about (please dont sau Abu Ghrain or Murtha) ?

Poor murf is hopeless. The guy is so frustrated and angry but doesn't really know why, so he goes off on these tangential rants that have only the faintest connection to reality. Frankly, I'd be embarrassed to say I was on the same side of the argument as him given the weakness of his positions and his inability to find support for any of his delusional claims. If Karl Rove could conjure up his version of the perfect mindless, gullible right-wing dupe, he would look just like murf.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

"It was proven after the 4th year of the war that the media was reporting more negative reports than positive reports."

--- Link please...

Seriously, another Murfism. Let me guess Murf, this is an indisputable FACT, but you have no link or anything else to back it up. Regardless of the clear lack of evidence, it is a FACT, and if you don't believe it, well, then, you must be some kind of (gasp!) LIBERAL!!! Dun, dun, dun.

This is such a bogus claim. The media ran overwhelmigly positive stories about our soldiers. they have been honored at every major sporting event and any other kind of event for the last 8 years. Yes, Abu Ghraib was a big story for awhile, but when local boy Matt Maupin was kidnapped that was also on the news every day for months -- and every single story I heard treated him positively. Problem is, you forget about those stories b/c that is whay you think SHOULD be on the news, but when you see a story like the Abu Ghraib, you don't forget it b/c you consider it an outrage that the news would run the story at all. Don't you realize everyone is biased to remember what outrages them instead of what they consider normal and expected, and thus overestimate the occurences of what they consider outrageous compared to what they don't?

I could see that the media ran stories critical of the war and Bush. But that is what the news is supposed to do, be critical. Especially when soldiers are dieing in a sham war launched off the back of fear, lies and propaganda and a completely incompetent POTUS is leading the charge. In my mind the media really dropped the ball at the outset of the war, but for you to say the media has been overly critical of the troops is ridiculous. If anything, the media is biased toward making money first and foremost, and degrading the troops would have been and still would be a financial disaster in terms of ad revenue. Secondly, most members of the American media are Americans, and as such do not want to see US soldiers hurt or killed and would prefer to think of them as heroes rather than louts. Most are probably neither, just somewhere in between, but the media always sensationalizes in one direction or another, it simply makes a better story. You can't tell me though that you haven't seen way more hero stories than "this US soldier is a bastard" stories.

By the way, the Murtha thing is irrelevant. The news wasn't calling the soldiers anything, just reporting controversial comments made by a government representative. Again, that's their job. Maybe you don't understand how the media works, but they are not going to report it every time a congressmember compliments the troops b/c that is expected, but of course they will report it when one says something negative b/c it is controversial (read: NEWSWORTHY). The same problem exists with studies. If one study links chewing gum with stomach cancer the news will report it, even if they didn't bother reporting the first 100 studies that did not suggest a link. This is not b/c they are liberal Murf, this is how they do their job. That is how the news works, you have to be smart enough to understand that. If you don't like it blame the people of PA who keep voting for Murtha, not the news.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

Admirable attempt Cin-C, but do you honestly think murf is going to absorb one iota of your rationally laid-out argument? He's probably formulating a response about how Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi created cancer.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

As much vitriol that comes out of Murf's keypad, you'd think he'd get something right every now and then, even if it's by accident. Nope. He just keeps his perfect record of puppet-on-a-string insanity correct.

I don't particularly consider myself a liberal, Murf. But, like most liberals, along with the entire mainstream press, I share a great admiration for our military.

That admiration explains why most of us are and were outraged that common soldiers were villified by the military-hating White House after the Abu Graib story broke.

And you say it's been "proven" that the press is anti-military? That's pure phony outrage and incoherent drivel.

But for that matter, so was your initial claim about Muslims killing more people than any other group or institution or even disease. Your ignorance was exposed once again, and you were owned because of it by several of us once again.

There certainly are dangerous Muslims out there. I wish that dolt that just left the White House would have taken those warnings seriously by the Clinton administration during the transition period, and during his intelligence briefings during his vacation periods.

LOL!
Unicorns and rainbows!




"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/01/aiding_and_abbe.html

~~~~~~~~
Nice little read from someone that was there!


"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

http://www.mrc.org/SpecialReports/2005/sum/sum101405.asp

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

Uhh, Murf, a story about the terorists detonating a car bomb which kills people up is not the same as (nor is it in the same ballpark) a news story bad mouthing the troops. Nice try, buddy...

You are losing this argument and your links are sinking you further.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

No, you are missing the point.
The first link was from a soldier, who is there, not some media hack trying to sway the story one way or the other, but his story, there in the war zone.

The other is a report that many asked for..evidence the media was negative.

I could provide a bunch of anti- Pelosi deals, but what is the point?
She is out of control and liberals love her!

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

You are confusing the original issue. Stories that cast troops in a bad light or stories about people getting killed.

Both stories have a negative message (people getting killed), but the stories you brought up (off some right wing hack site) were not cirtical of the troops or negative towards the troops.

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

The media always has been pro military. It's mere delusional, victim-wannabe trash talk to complain about a non issue.

Unfortunately, some of our soldiers do dastardly things. It's news. It's also been news when the military wins battles and nurtures Iraqi orphans. I read more of the latter stories in the mainstream press than the former.

It all gets reported. The right wing whiners just can't get over thier embarrassment that Iraq was based on lie, defended with treason and managed for years by nincompoops.

So in their frustrated rage, they wrap their draft-dodging bodies in the American flag and scream that our military is under attack.

Fallujah, Iraq -- The 108th division of the US Army had an easy day today loitering around in their tanks and barracks. It was the first such "calm" day in nearly a month.

"Yeah we got to play some football, and I wrote a letter to my girlfriend and my baby's momma," said Leiutenant Alfred E. Newman. "It's nice to have a day where we ain't getting shot at and dieing."

During the day, many of the army specialists had jobs to do, such as digging latrines and cooking potatoes, but still, with no enemy combatants in sight, many soldiers were seen scratching their balls and gambling their rations over card games.

In other news, 18 soldiers were killed in Baghdad after a suicide bombing. We have no space left to release the names of the dead soldiers.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

Just like I said, if I post a link or report or whatever, then it becomes a "right wing hack site", so what is the point.
You guys can believe whatever you want.

Answer me this...
When the Iraqi Prison "torture" pics came out, how many days in a row did the story run on the front pages across this country?
How many of you read about or heard about the "Torture handbook" found in a coward safe house, written by bin Laden and 2 of his top cowards?

Let me give you a slight hint here...They spelled out how they torture, they had pictures of people being tortured and illustrations on how to bleed out humans.

Never saw that story did you?
How many people have watched the unedited versions of the twin tower attacks?
How many people have watched the Daniel Bird video or the other videos that showed the rape and murder of a female reporter?

Why is it that, the media tried to sue the millitary for the right to pciture the caskets of dead soldiers, but refused to show the pictures of the American Soldier hanging from a bridge or the video of the american troops being ambushed?

You can believe whatever you want, and play the game of twist the facts all you want, that is your right to ignore real life and believe the unicorns and rainbows side of things.
I can live in the real world and pay attention to what is going on.

Trust me, this is not a right wing vs left wing deal, I hate both sides of the deal.
I think the left, ignore real life and a have a dream of being a socialist nation (Mickey Mouse and Dingbat are laying the foundation) and I think the right wing nut jobs are nothing more than religious nut balls, hell bent on being a taliban ruled nation under the Christian side of things.

Both are hypocrits, both just find away to attack the working middle class and both don't give a rats azz about you as a person, they care about you as a money source!





"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

Murf,

Its a link, so I salute you on that. However, in the future, just undrstand that many people do not give any creedence to links from the MRC, or the Family Research Council or similar conservative think tanks. They are groups that have a message and find information to support information to support that message.

Similarly, moveon.org, huggintonpost.com and other lefty cites have the same credibility for people on the right...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Murf is mostly funny with his drivel and he's never been shy about making crap up in the past. So I'm hardly going to come off shocked that he would do it again.

But he's completely gone off the deep end with suggestions and/or inuendos that the "media" hid atrocities from 9/11 or failed to report on the murders of Daniel Perl or the Americans that were hung from a bridge in Falluja.

Those stories were plastered all over the news. Even your evil CNN produced an exhaustive, one hour special that detailed the kidnapping and murder of Daniel Perl.

I don't care how brainwashed you obviously are, or what puppet strings have been attached to your body, you are just flat out insane to make such statements.

Face it. You're upset that the media, after giving W a shamefull pass in the leadup to, and early periods of, the Iraq War, finally started asking some tough questions.

Some Bush lies were exposed, along with a healthy dose of incompetence and treason. You've gone into an insane panic at the exposure.

I understand that and can even laugh at you for it. But your conspiracy rants are a serious indication of a mental disorder. I hope you get help.

You see trooper, you fail to understand the scope of the conversation.
Of course there was a story about a reporter that got killed, but did CNN show the full length video?
It is out there, unedited, and not a single media source in this country rolled the video to complition.
The Tower Attacks, repeated the falling buildings over and over and the after math, they did not show the people jumping off the buildings and landing on the ground, they didn't show the baby missing an arm and a security guard holding her.
they didn't show the real terror, they hid behind the basics.
When an ABC higher up, was asked why they didn't show that, the first reponse was to protect the American people from the choas and to protect any american muslims, they felt the backlash would have been directed at innocent people.

When did any of the networks show the sodliers bodies hanging from a bridge?
I found out it on the net, but nto a single news paper or tv station showed the truth.

Somilia, took apart an American soldier and burned his body in the streets, then had children running down the streets with body parts as the crowd celebrated...funny, don't remember that on every tv station or front page for 20 somethign days straight.

The media hides the evil from teh enemy, but relishes in the trumped drama of some pictures or a false story of rape and murder by our troops.

If you can't see that, then you force yourself not to see it.

Like I said, the handbook story is another example.
They have it spelled out...yet, the media in this country, would rather scream about torture by our millitary...investigations showed 3 people that had been thru the water games, and a few victims of a head slap. Compare that, the outrage that follows to the real torture that our troops and citizens have to face.

You can hide behind your fantasy of a lovign socialist nation, that is your right and as long as that makes you happy, then have it.
I would rather see our nation rally behind our troops and do anything and everything to destroy and kill all coward networks, before they do something like 9-11 again!

"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"Just like I said, if I post a link or report or whatever, then it becomes a "right wing hack site", so what is the point.
You guys can believe whatever you want."

Murf, the MRC was started by a guy named Bozell, who resigned as president of the National Conservatives PAC the monthe before starting the MRC. The site and him are unabashedly rigth-wing, which is fine, but don't try to tell me they are not. Just like Bronc said about HuffPo and MoveOn, we all know they have an agenda and are NOT even attempting to be unbiased sources. Plus the article linked form the MRC was a study of 3 broadcast news shows, so no newspapers, radio shows or FOX news programs were in the study, hardly encompassing of the "mainstream media." And if you don't think Rush Limbaugh should be considered mainstream because he paints himself as some outsider, rebel working for the little guy, think again. It doesn't get any more mainstream than Clear Channel and Rush with his illions of listeners, as much as it pains me to type it. Just because someone says they are not mainstream does not mean it is true, just part of their agenda.

And the reason it wasn;t big news that Osama had a torture handbook? Because everyone knew he was torturing people already, he had been doing it openly and posting video online. Why would the fact that he jotted some "best practices" down be a big scandal when the whole world knew about it already?

That is not even close to the same as the discovery that American soldiers are torturing people, because America claims that it does not torture, so it WAS a big revelation. Isn't the difference obvious?

As far a Daniel Perl, an incredible horrific tragedy. PBS did a one hour special telling the whole story and interviewing his wife, and it was just unbearably sad. But if that liberal bastion (rolls eyes) PBS did a special on it, it was hardly covered up by the media. And I watched the towers fall live, or pretty damn close to it, there might have been a few seconds delay. All I know is I heard someone scream "F*CK" on television, so it couldn't have been that censored. And every paper in the country dedicated the next days paper almost solely to the events and aftermath of 9/11. how you could argue that the media did not cover it exhaustively is beyond me.

"We do do, and we do it at a very, very high level," Lewis said.

I don't care who started the site, I just pointed out a story, with facts, to show people.
Of course it is a right wing nut jobs site, but it still points out the facts of my opinion, on this subject.

The coward attacks on the American people on 9/11, was daily, and nobody is disputing that, but they did not show the real horror.
They did not show the bodies hittign the ground. Sounds morbid, and nobody realy watns to see people jumping to thier deaths, but it shows how the media will shield us from some things, but relish in the trumped up drama of other things.
There is a ton of video out there, that was not shown and in my opinion, it sould have been, to show everyone who was not there on ground, the horror these people had to deal with and to allow everyone to understand just what we are fighting.

We come across like monsters on the wrold stage and in real life, we are not even close to the enemy in brutality tactics!
That is point.



"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

"...they did not show the real horror. They did not show the bodies hittign the ground."

Are you completely nuts? You want the 6 o'clock news to show bodies splattering on the sidewalk? Everyone knew that people were jumping from the towers. The outrage, fear and anger was unanimous. Nobody was thinking "Poor muslim extremists, we better not criticize them in case we upset somebody." The fact that you want to traumatize people who are already frightened and on board to fight terrorism speaks volumes about your mental state.
The whole argument is just idiotic. The problem murf has is that he doesn't know how to distinguish between the terrorists (0.001%) and innocent people that look like those terrorists (99.999%). So to murf, they are all "the cowards". We can't afford to have any standards or conduct for ourselves because the cowards use torture. We have to forget all we hold dear and have worked for because the cowards don't have standards. It is this kind of massive ignorance and lack of understanding of the complexity of the issue that mires us even deeper in the problem.

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

No BA, you are arrogant and full of sh!t, with your elitist agenda.
They killed many innocent people and destroyed thousands of lives and the american public was shielded from the truth and real pictures and videos of death and torture.

We did not see the real pictures of death and torture, and by torture, I mean women and children being burned alive.

Why?
Now, nobody wants to see that or even think about that, but we were told that we were not ready to witness those scenes.
So, instead, we get rumped up liberal drama, from some Iraqi prison pics, that did not involve torture or death and it is national headlines with record breaking numbers of days in a row as the lead story.

Wonder why that is?

It is a disgrace how this war has been played out.
Yet, the soldiers still win the battle, despite having the most shamefull adm. ever in office.

Murf, you try to backtrack on your original phony claims but you just babble out more trash.

No, the Muslims haven't killed more people in history than any other institution.

No, the Muslims haven't killed more people in history than any other disease.

No, the Muslims haven't killed more people in the last 60 years than any other institution.

No, the Muslims haven't killed more people in the last 60 years than any other disease.

No, the "Media" hasn't hid stories of American military success and military humanity. Yes, the "Media" has lavished praise on American military success and American military humanity.

No, the "Media" hasn't hid stories of Muslim extrenist barbarism. Yes, the "Media" has covered in depth the many stories of Muslim extremist barbarism.

No one in the press invented words like "disgraceful" about the conduct of some American military and planted them in the mouths of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other ship of fools that just slithered out of Washington a few months ago.

These jackasses uttered condemnation of our military all on their own to hide their embarrassment. Why is that a surprise? They didn't hesitate to commit and forgive treason to hide their embarrassment either.

You did accidently make one truthful claim to close your last post:

"Yet, the soldiers still win the battle, despite having the most shamefull adm. ever in office."

That pack of evengelical draft-dodgers which slunk out of DC last January surely was the "most shamefull adm. ever in office." Congrats. You got something right for the first, and perhaps only, time in your MBS life.

Murf, if the problem is the liberal media, then why didnt FoxNews show the pics either?

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

Anyone want to rethink their position on torture now?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

So one guy giving some information without "torture" is evidence enough to prove that everyone would follow the same path?
C'mon...once again....we didn't TORTURE anyone.
The American version of Torture these days is pathetic at best.

I am not sayign that people were treated like royalty, but from the reports and ivnestigations that have bene completed, there is very little evidence of real torture.

You guys can claim to be angry about torture, but you don't have a clue as to what is torture, if you think the pictures were torture.

Gitmo...NO EVIDENCE OF ANY TORTURE AT ANY TIME......
Bad behavior at times, a few head slaps and maybe some roughness here and there, but not 1 single shred of evidence of torture.
Acoording to some, only 3 people recieved the water game and that is not torture, misguided, maybe even illegal to americans, since we are the only ones that ever follow the rules of war.

As for Foxx, they are same way when it comes to the media and showing the horrors of the american tragedies, but atleast they did go as far as showing the handbook photos and diagrams of the cowards handbook to torture.

I heard a liberal on the radio today....
he was talking about the Doc that got killed by a nut job thumper.. and he "THEY KILL DOCTORS ALL OF THE TIME".
Just another example of the open minded side of the debates.
In Fact, I think the number is 5 or 6 people that have been killed since 1991 or something like that and they were all killed by single persons, and not a group, but THEY are killing Doctors all of the time.
Funny how that works....the side that Champions the open mind, is about as closed as you can get, when you don't agree with them.

Again...how many days did the Pictures hold the lead story vs...the real pictures of americans being killed or tortured?

Dick says no link to Saddam and 9/11.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/01/cheney.speech/index.html

It only took him 6 years...sheesh!

and Murf, the guy in the story I linked was actually an interrogator and used interrogation techniques other than waterboarding and torture.

I consider torture anythign where the person is in fear of dying or extreme suffering...



"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

I read the story, but it was based on 1 guy.

Look, we are never going to agree on this torture debate...
You are against it, and I don't give 2 sh!ts if they use or not, honestly don't care what happens to the enemy, but my point has been thru the entire thing, is that we treat the Americans as if they are monsters for this torture thing and when you look at the real facts, we are the only ones that follow the rules, the waterboarding stuff is over blown and counter productive to our efforts in the war in terror, but everything the liberal media touches, is counter productive, so what is the point?



"Despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden, there's a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

Agree to disagree...

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."

geez, bronco, why didn't you just say that 100 posts ago.

Anyway, while tears stream down your cheek over the waterboarding, your buddies behead another innocent victim.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524857,00.html

If we torture them, the beheading will stop, right?

"The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis."