Just out of curiosity, how many here still have hope for the Bungs? I mean, after 50 years of losing football I think one would simply give up on this organization. I know I did many years ago. If by some miracle you still have hope, what are you placing your faith in to have such hope? Also, if you don't have any more hope, do you still watch the games? If so, why?

I have hope for this year.
Revamped defense, Carson healthy with plenty of weapons and a center that can block and make the right calls.

The Steelers are going to be the Steelers and they are the ones that you need to atleast split with.

I think the Bengals will a team to deal with.

Anyone with an ounce of objectivity care to respond?
I don't expect to see a strong Bengals team this year. I think they'll be mediocre instead of awful, but they just don't have enough good football minds in management or coaching to be a force. Carson is a physically talented guy but he doesn't have the smarts to carry a team without lots of help.

I'm eager to see the preseason games. Although they don't tell the whole story, last year the Bungs were unequivocably awful in preseason to the point that very few non-homers felt optimistic about the coming season. (Can't forget murf's classic line: "Another year of people freaking out over preseason. They will be fine when the real games start. No they don't look good, but who cares, it is preseason.")

http://www.network54.com/Forum/90650/thread/1219605351/Preseason

As the most 'fair and balanced' football fan alive, here are my thoughts...


1. Murf is too optimistic here, but since the question is "do the Bengals have ANY hope," I will answer that as "yes." There are a number of teams that enter 2009 with almost zero chance of making the playoffs in 2009 (Raiders, Browns, Chiefs, Lions, Rams). So right there, I would put them a step above, how Bill Simmons would put it, the 'Rod Rust/Rod Marinelli Division

2. The offense will be the key. Again, stopping opposing offenses in the division will not be too much of a problem. The Browns will have almost zero offense this season unless Quinn/Andersen to Edwards becomes a top pass/catch combo. Jamal Lewis is OK but only if they can establish the run (which the Bungs are the one team in the division that they can do that to). The Ravens offense will still be suspect as well. Expect Flacco to take a step back in a sophomore slump of sorts, especially if Mason officially retires and Heap is getting no younger. The Steelers offense was not very good last year but was super clutch. However, it was Big Ben who was 'super clutch.' The rape allegations could be a distraction there. The Bungs offense can outscore teams if Palmer returns to his top form, and if they have any kind of creativity on offense to get the running game and passing games in sync again. Their weakness will be the O-line, but maybe [hopefully] Smith will give this line a good pass/run blocker to go with the mediocre group.

3. The defense is terribly overrated. Sorry. Bill Cowher's comments plus the drafting of Maleuga created a smokescreen of sorts that the Bungs are a rock solid group on defense. Their numbers last year had more to do with playing a number of anemic offenses that it did the defense being dominant. Best case scenario, the defense will be the third best in the division, but even looking at that, the Steelers and Ravens will be two top-5 calibre defenses, while the Bungs are at best in the middle of the pack (again, even if they were 'statistically' 10th doesn't mean that they were the 10th best defense in 2008). Their defense also benefitted in 2008 from the team being more of a running team that tried to milk the clock. With Palmer back, their only chance to win will be to run a passing game or at least a westcoast type of offense. We'll see

4. The offseason has been debatable. Same with the draft. The most optimistic loved both. Even the most pessimistic do not hate both. While I agree that the offseason was 'a good one for the Bengals,' I still personnel wise preferred Housh to Coles, although in 2009 an unhappy Housh would not be as useful as a Coles who wants to be here. But just look at the stats and the fact the Coles has bounced around now (and to a worse off franchise each time!)...he is not anywhere NEAR Houshmandzedeh in terms of what he brings to the offense. We now have too many big play guys but not enough willing to go over the middle for first down yardage (kind of like the Blake to Pickens/Scott ordeal...they put up some nice numbers in meaningless situations but were never enough of a trio to lead the Bungs to better than an 8 wins season). Not sure what to expect from Tank. As for the draft, I'm still skeptical. They filled team needs but with a lot of guys who fell down in the draft (that some real franchises passed on) for good reasons I'm sure. Every player on the Bengals draft board is completely hit or miss, hardly how the Patriots, Steelers, and Giants build their teams...

5. The schedule presents some winnable games, so any less than 5 wins (barring major injuries to Palmer again) and this team is a disappointment. So assuming that their over/under on wins is 6 games, that means that they are only a couple of big wins away from maybe being a playoff team, although these days you usually need 10 wins to make it, and last season New England missed with 11 wins. 9 wins will definitely NOT win the AFC North. Steelers or Ravens of both will be better than that.

6. If Chad Johnson comes to play, that could make a HUGE difference. Maybe he is one who will benefit from the loss of the Palmer to Housh combo.

7. Another positive is that the defensive coaching is actually pretty good. The Bungs score wise only got toasted a couple of times, but turnovers from their inept offense had something to do with that. As fans who love to run coaches out of town here, please give this group [defensively] a chance! Their offensive coaching is still one of the worst.


As a whole, EXPECTING a 'Mike Brown good season' (8-8 or better) is out of the question, but if they win some relative toss-up games and if they could win three or four divisional games then the Bungs could have a descent shot at finishing in the 7-9/8-8/9-7 range. Better than 9-7 is almost out of the question. And if they finish worse than 6-10 barring injuries this coaching staff should probably be fired unless teams like the Browns, Lions, Raiders, and Chiefs, all teams on our schedule, are inexplicably much better.

There's two ways to look at the question. Hope for this year? There's hope for ANY year. Any given year, weird things can happen. Hope in the long haul? Not really.

There are four types of teams I see in the NFL:

-- Contenders (you know they're going to be in the mix until their key pieces age beyond their prime abilities).
-- Precipice teams (they haven't contended yet but once they do, they're going to be in the mix for a while).
-- Rebuilders (they've become awful in recent years and the management clearly knows it and are putting young pieces of the puzzle in place...no one really knows if the rebuilding is going to work or not)
-- Terrible teams (they have a solid history (10+ years at least) of inept management and chances are good that they are awful and will remain awful)

The thing is, in ANY given year, ANY of these teams can do well. Some teams in the bottom two categories just catch flyer years where they inexplicably break out. Everyone on the team has a career year at once and it all lines up. Maybe they make the playoffs, heck, they might even win their conference but they typically fall short of winning the Super Bowl and you know you won't see them return.

If I were a fan of any of the other teams, I would go into every year EXPECTING the playoffs and hoping something good happened once the team got there. And if they fall short, I know they're going to be right back in the mix next year.

So hope for this year? Sure, why not?

But if they're good this year, I'm not going to be entirely convinced that the future will be bright because there are still some fundmamental inadequacies with the organization that would prevent me from having any confidence.

Now, the brass tacks beyond the management that we're always b!+(#!ng about, here's the things that you can be optimistic and skeptical about:

GOOD: There's offensive talent, but BAD: how reliable is it? Benson had a few good games, we know Henry has the POTENTIAL but will they live up to it and not get arrested? Chad is a complete wildcard and we haven't seen Palmer's timing with Coles yet.

GOOD: The team had a pretty good draft, but BAD: we all probably would have picked a different guy for the line than Smith. Most of us (sans Murf) wanted someone for the OL but did most of us want Smith? Is this guy even going to get signed? Will he be in shape?

GOOD: Year Two without Bres, but BAD: is there any talent on the line to pressure the QB? Really does it matter who the coordinator of this defense is until we learn to do more than lay back do "OK statistically, but still can't stop a drive when it counts and the team loses?"

GOOD: Better punting.....this might alter things more than you might thing because Larsen was well and truly awful.

BAD...AND I MEAN POSSIBLY REALLY BAD: The offensive line. Nothing fills me with less confidence and convinces me the team is going nowhere more than this. The only way preseason will reassure me that the team has any shot of doing anything is if the offensive line shows itself to be anything resembling adequate.

PROBABLY ALSO BAD: Marvin's still here and I'm not the only one that long ago questioned whether or not the team responds to him anymore.


So yeah, real long post, I apologize!

BMN

Well said. With the way the NFL is all 32 teams enter the season with a chance, even the Lions and Raiders.

And I agree about the way franchises operate. If I were to group your franchises:

"-- Contenders (you know they're going to be in the mix until their key pieces age beyond their prime abilities). "
-Patriots, Colts, Steelers, Chargers, Giants, Eagles...on a year in and year out basis over the past 5+ seasons all of these teams are automatically in the mix. All of the above have franchise quarterbacks, good or at least respectable coaching (although the Colts have a new regime), and solid or great defenses.

"-- Precipice teams (they haven't contended yet but once they do, they're going to be in the mix for a while). "
this is a tougher one. I would say that this would be teams with good management or talent or coaching or all of the above and should be in the mix possibly this year or next or soon
-Ravens, Titans, Panthers, Vikings, Falcons, Dolphins, Cardinals (unless 2008 was a complete aberration), Jets, Redskins, Jaguars, Cowboys, Bears, Broncos, Saints, Bills, Seahawks, Packers, Texans, Buccaneers

"-- Rebuilders (they've become awful in recent years and the management clearly knows it and are putting young pieces of the puzzle in place...no one really knows if the rebuilding is going to work or not)
-Rams, Chiefs, and to some extent the Dolphins and Ravens if 2008 was an aberration, and possibly some teams could have slid into this category, namely the Broncos

"-- Terrible teams (they have a solid history (10+ years at least) of inept management and chances are good that they are awful and will remain awful) "
-Raiders, Lions, Browns, Bengals, and 49ers. Of this group I would argue that the 49ers then the Bungs have the best chances at the playoffs in 2009.

Yes I do. See, here is the thing... I went through my "I'm finding a new team and rooting for them" phase, but it just didn't work. For me to be a fan of a team, I have to have some kind of emotional tie or roots to said team.

Now, whether I have hope or not before a given year... that is another question. HAHA. Last year, I knew we were fuched. Between Chads rants in the offseason, and the vibe I was getting before last season, I knew we were screwed and it was all topped off and all hope was gone the game that Carson had his nose broke. I knew then.. that we were in for a long season.

This year, to me is much different. I do have cautious optimism this year and the only reason I am not a little more hopeful is that I am really worried about our OLine, and is Carson's arm going to hold up, should he have got the surgery?? To me those are the 2 big questions this team needs answered.

On a not real worried note, are we actually going to have a pass rush this year?? I think the moves we made in the offseason and our draft will better that area and I am not real worried about that. We will be better with our pass rush and our front 7 is overall better. And we have 2 solid starting corners and 3 safeties that can start.

Can we stay healthy? We had 21-22 guys on the DL last year. Thats just terrible strength and conditioning. From the coaches and individual players. Hopefully, that is better.

So yes... I have hope this year. Call me an idiot if you want, but I like the vibe so far. The team looed good at mini-camp (except OLine), lets see what happens when the pads go on.

Murf,

I dont think the defense is "revamped". I think its the same "D" with another year under its belt and it added some talent at key positions. Regardless of whether you felt the D was overrated or underrated last year, they finished 12thn in total defense. And that same defense had to play ALOT due to our terrible offense.

Give Odom a chance, he was hurt for most of last year. I like Sims progression in DT - he is a tremendoud force and has incredible potential. Tank Johnson was made for a 4-3 defense (not the NT position he had in Dallas). Roy Williams and Rey Rey bring something this team has lacked for awhile - ATITUDE! I also like how we can now roll 4 deep in safety depth...If Geathers and Odom can be moderately effective,I like where this story is headed!

I will not and refuse to drink the Kool-Aid on the offense side of the ball. Why? Because Brat "The Idiot" is still coaching. Couple that with a young O-line and a lack of depth at running back and there is cause to be concerned...

Oh, and Graham hasnt made a kick that mattered in 3 years...

I am cautiously optimistic about 2009 due to the schedule, but I wont be surprised with a losing record...

"Falc, just because I respond, please dont take it to mean that I give a sh!t about you. I respond because you are the type of person that needs to be told what a whack job you are or else you will go on thinking your behavior is normal and accepted. "

I still have hope


Swine Flu
Heart attack
car wreck
fall in the tub

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In Memory of Darren

Actually, I have hope for the season and see us possibly competing for a wildcard.

Im actually excited about our defense for the first time in a long time with my only ? mark on the Oline.

But, we will see

...and she is pretty hot. Oh, you mean football----Bengals football??????

Wow. I think Michael Dukakis had a better chance. Come on. This year it'll be different.

I have a cousin named Hope, same Hope Dacow?

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In Memory of Darren

I too am concerned but hopeful. I'm concerned mostly about the offensive line. I think Whitworth is a natural guard. We already know he has trouble with speed rushers. He simply isn't quick on his feet. I think the best OL would be Collins at LT... Whitworth at LG... Cook at C... Williams at RG... and Smithapotamus at RT. But last I heard nobody in Bengal land has even seen Smith's agent yet. And Brown is never in a hurry to sign first rounders because he's as tight as Tony Siragusa's jock strap. And also because he wants to wait to see what kind of deals other guys near his 1st rounder get.

But I have hope because they've clearly improved themselves in other areas. The front 7 should be much better. The safeties should be much better. The tight ends should FINALLY be competent. The punter should be much better. And, they have credible depth at most positions now. So when Marvin gets these guys injured on the practice field this year he won't have to replace them with total dolts.

"BAD...AND I MEAN POSSIBLY REALLY BAD: The offensive line."


BMN--once again, your posts are legendary, insightful, and objective.

What does every Super Bowl Contender have in common? Offensive Line Play. Ben Roethlisberger had one of the worst offensive lines in Super Bowl History--but still--they still could run the ball. Pass Protection was the big issue, of course. But usually, if your offensive line isn't solid--then you can squeeze in the playoffs--but you aren't going very far.

If you look at those 1980s 49er Teams, the 1990s Cowboy Teams, and the 2000s Patriots--you get none other than great line play and stability. Its the most overlooked aspect of an NFL Team by their managements--but extremely important. I would venture to say that the most important position in the NFL other than QB is Left Tackle. That's your stud--and your leader on the offensive line most of the time--even though the Center (which calls the line audibles--and is extremely underrated as well) touches the ball on every down.

As far as the "who has any hope"--well, of course I'm pretty down on this franchise. But everyone has a chance to make the PLAYOFFS in any given year. Every year there is another Arizona Cardinals. There is one dark horse in every analyst's picks. They want to look good when they're right.

But I'm going to say this--with the lack of offensive line, you may have Fitzy playing QB by week 5. That's not good. Anybody running the ball through that picket fence is going to get killed. You will be lucky to average 3.5 ypc like Convict did last year. I'm thinking if the Bungles squeeze out 5 wins, they'll be real lucky.



Also, I mentioned that every team has a chance every year. That is actually a fascade. Not every team. Most teams. But the teams that are poorly managed definitely do NOT, most of the time. The Cardinals made it last year--so I can't say all the time. But teams like the Aints, Bungles, 49ers, Redskins, Cowboys, Raiders, Chefs, Lions, and Jaguars? Those teams don't stand a chance at a Super Bowl Ring this year. The teams that have great team management systems like the Patriots and Steelers? Of course they place their teams in the best possible position for another run. Every year. I think it's no different for this year.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

"I think I will try to stick to conversations that don't involve politics." - murf, April 17 2009

I've said it a few times before, but MBS works as highly effective Group Therapy. Last season's boondoggle would have been excruciating without it. Thanks to you guys, though, I could actually enjoy following the team.

I've soured on all professional sports yet can't shake football and the Bengals. As USC said, team allegiance is tied to our personal memories and lifelong experiences. I need this place and some of the Bengals blogs to preserve my sanity.

Hope? Nah. Not as long as Mike Brown is in charge.

"I've soured on all professional sports yet can't shake football and the Bengals."


Wait. You can't stand any of your other sports--yet you are masochistic enough to keep the Bungles around for "sanity" reasons. You are truly Psycho, you know that?

So, for the sake of reasoning--who were your other squads before you settled on this sole piece of sh*t lead by the biggest piece of sh*t in the universe?





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Falc, I come to this message board for sanity reasons. I remain a Bengals fan because it's too deeply a part of me. (Sad but true.) The Bengals are the disease. MBS is the treatment.

I used to be a big Reds fan, but I guess the World Series championships of '75, '76, and '90 helped me to feel "fulfilled". I've probably watched two whole games all the way through since the mid 90's, and both were in Milwaukee's Miller Park, attending with a brother in-law. Given the Reds longstanding lack of success, drifting away was probably a healthy thing to do.

In the past, I would root for various teams at various times, like Larry Bird's Boston Celtics. Or Magic Johnson's LA Lakers. But the popular sports have all gone to excess. Everything always has to be overkill. So I stay away.

But there's something about football itself that makes it too much fun to quit. Or maybe it's all the Bengals near misses over the years regarding the playoffs. (A sense of unfinished business?) I don't know.

I won't use the word "hope", I'll use "potential"

I'll stick up for the defense.

I think the defense has the potential to be quite good. For the crap they had to deal with (inept offense, injuries) they did well.

Even before the last few games, they were still giving up less than 4 yards per rush attempt. (trust me, I did the math at one point)

The Bengals D had the 6th most rushing attempts against them. 490 attempts to be exact. When you have that many attempts against your team, yeah, the yardage is going to add up. They still only gave up 3.9 ypr, not bad considering the other 5 teams gave up nothing less than 4.5 ypr.

Why did they have all those rushing attempts against them?

Because the offense was completely inept, even before Palmer went down. I would like to see what the defense could do with an offense that could sustain a few drives and give them a break.

The D does need work, they need a damn pass-rusher so freaking bad. It would be nice to see the front 4 alone get some kind of pressure on QBs. That would help tremendously.

I think that Mike Zimmer is potentialy one of the best things to ever happen to this defense.

There is a solid base there, they were able to hold teams to 3.9 ypr and the secondary is a very solid, young group. JJ is a player if his head is in there and I'll admit, I hated the Leon Hall pick, but, well. They added some guys to it like The Johnsons, Tank and Michael, Williams and Rey-Rey.

Best outcome, and it's possible if the stars align: a 2005 type Bengals offense with a defense that could actully back them up.

Worst outcome, and it's possible: see 2008.

I'll watch, I'll root for em to win, if they don't, oh well.

Hope....a little.

Surely the beauty of sport is that at the beginning of a new season "hope springs eternal". This just might be our year....and then you wake up and the toast is on fire!

Give me an underachieving hopeless team any time. Low expectations work fine for me. Blimey, what would we do if we were going for a 'threepeat'?

So a little hope, but as this is the Bengals, it will probably take about three quarters of the first game to remind me that it ain't gonna happen.

Could you imagine supporting a team that won every game? How boring, where's the fun? All those fickle fans and 'band wagon jumpers' (I refer you to teams like Manchester United and the other big four in British Soccer, I'm sure you have them in NFL, MLB etc).

Nope, just enough hope to remind me to sort out my TV Sports subsription package in a few weeks time, just enough hope to wear my Bengals baaseball cap with pride, not many people recognises it!


Go Bengals....just not to much, thanks.

I hear ya UK Bengal & psycho. I'm trying to save up enough to subscribe to NFL Sunday Ticket with my cable provider this year. My vision is to be in the man cave with several games on the giant screen while consuming mass quantities of junk food and having my lap top next to me to check both of my fantasy teams in real time. I will also make many of the same vulgar noises I remember my Dad making. Does that make me a bad person?

Nah. Nothing wrong with that. Sounds like a highly evolved person to me.

Now if you had TWO laptops, one for each fantasy team, I think there might be cause for worry!

Sounds like the perfect set-up to me. I'll be looking for your posts in the game threads.