http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-training-camps/09000d5d811aa6fe/Palmer-at-Bengals-camp

Didnt know he was the 5th fastest QB in NFL history to throw 100 TD passes. Nice.

It depends on how you look at this stat--at a cup's half empty or half-full perspective.

The half-full perspective states that Carson's stats were solid for the first 4 years. Minus all his picks for the 1st year--and the 4th year, 18 and 20 for those years. That's pretty bad.

The half-empty perspective stats 2 things:

1. Drunkowski believes that Carson Palmer is Dan Marino. There were 3 years where Marino threw the ball more than 600 times. Palmer still has 3 years where he threw the ball more than 500 times. Truly unacceptable when you think about how many times the Bungles did have a decent running game and could have worked the clock better on the ground.

2. Look at the play selection by Bratkowski later in games during those 500-pass attempt seasons by Palmer. Especially in 2005. That's completely unacceptable. But that's what you get when you have a dumbazzed offensive coordinator like Bratkowski--that should be managing the game clock--and not throwing on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

Football has always been a fascinating statistical study, largely because a lot of those stats are so situationally skewed.

Besides the common Brat complaints, another situational factor in Carson's numbers has to be the pathetic Bungle defenses.

In the 2005 year, that might have been the sorriest D in the NFL. Never forget its regular season-ending debacle and the playoff travesty. I really can't blame Bungle playcalling to throw like crazy. The Bungs had to score big.

Those situational perspectives go on and on. The Bungs' offensive line obviously deteriorated in recent years, but it gave up few sacks a couple seasons ago. Attribute that to quick pass calls and a savvy quarterback who still got his brains bashed by pressure.

And I still laugh at all that euphoria about the Bungs' D getting to at least average last season. Teams didn't have to score a lot of points number one, and the Bungs ran a lot of clock-killing plays number two.

That Bungle D was still putrid last season. It wasn't a surprise to me that the D got a lot of attention in the offseason.

Very impressive indeed.

I still cannot understand the resentment that Palmer gets on these boards. He is the ONE thing in the Bengals organization that is not a problem...there are VERY FEW possible upgrades at this position.

He is still a top 5 QB in the NFL. And I would like to see how Manning and Brady would do with inept offensive coordinators and playing behind an offensive line in which they get hit more than 10 times per season. That would be a nice equalizer. Brady and Manning are both great, but they have a lot of luxuries going for them that Palmer does not, and Palmer still puts up comparable numbers when he's healthy.

"I still cannot understand the resentment that Palmer gets on these boards. He is the ONE thing in the Bengals organization that is not a problem...there are VERY FEW possible upgrades at this position. "

I like Carson, Wyche. But he sometimes gets a free pass when he should be criticized as well for his lack of 4th quarter comebacks and inability to win big games.

"Falc, just because I respond, please dont take it to mean that I give a sh!t about you. I respond because you are the type of person that needs to be told what a whack job you are or else you will go on thinking your behavior is normal and accepted. "

"That Bungle D was still putrid last season. It wasn't a surprise to me that the D got a lot of attention in the offseason."


Joe Flacco ran for a 37 yard TD untouched last season. I know that Flacco isn't a real burner either. That's my real example for how good the defense was last year. But I'm sure that Bronco's going to bring up the 12th ranking again. Blah. Anybody who really listened/watched those games would really know that D wasn't that great.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

For the amount of time that they were on the field though with "3-and-out-Fitzpatrick", it could have been worse. But yea, I remember that. So embarrassing.

Exactly the point, So-Cali.

That offense was so horrible that the D was on the field ALL FREAKING YEAR and they still ended up 12th.

Explain that one, Falcon.

Nah, he'll just take one example and try to extrapolate it for the entire year.

"And I still laugh at all that euphoria about the Bungs' D getting to at least average last season. Teams didn't have to score a lot of points number one, and the Bungs ran a lot of clock-killing plays number two.

That Bungle D was still putrid last season. It wasn't a surprise to me that the D got a lot of attention in the offseason."


Straight from Trooper. I agree--and here's really what I was going to say--but why parrot what has already been said? Why aren't you all over him for saying it? LMAO.






"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

You both are wrong.

The pass rush was horrendous as usual (injuries hurt that as well), but the run defense was pretty solid and we had good DB and safety play.

It was the definition of bend but dont break D. Heck, in the latter part of the year, Zimmer was blitzing more as well.

"Falc, just because I respond, please dont take it to mean that I give a sh!t about you. I respond because you are the type of person that needs to be told what a whack job you are or else you will go on thinking your behavior is normal and accepted. "

"It was the definition of bend but dont break D. Heck, in the latter part of the year, Zimmer was blitzing more as well."


Bungles just went 4-11-1 in 2008. You had 11 losses. I think that sounds pretty broke to me.

Bungles D gave up 364 points last year. Like Troop said--it could have been worse. That's pretty bad. It needed teams like the Chefs at the end of the year to "pad stats". Just think if they would have played a team like the Patriots at the end of the year. They could have almost gave up 400 points.

I already gave you the Flacco run, which was just one example of pathetic. In the same game, the Bungles D gave up a 42-yard double reverse to Mark Clayton, which if I remember correctly, was barely touched. Still, same game--Bungle D couldn't get a stop. Baltimore Offense runs the clock out starting with 7:15 mark. ONE PASS. All runs. The Bungles couldn't stop them. Flacco takes 2 knees to end out the game.

Now that's just one game out of 11. I could give you other examples, such as the 34-3 loss to Baltimore in the next game--or the 35-3 loss in the Indy Game--but I'll leave that to your imagination.

But just keep on thinking that the Bungles' D was that good--sure, they were good against teams that were struggling like KC, Cleveland, Washington, and Jax. But those offenses were all struggling at that point. And it doesn't make things look very good for you.

That's why Troop brought up his point--thus validating mine.






"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

It's a situation common to pathetic teams. The stronger of the offensive-defensive units will tend to look better statistically than it really is. Sometimes much better.

Opponents come in flat and uninspired. They play it safe and hold back on strategic wrinkles, saving them for more fearsome opponents. They often play just well enough to win, finally picking on the pathetic team's weaker unit at crunch time. Case in point -- the Giants win over the Bungles last year.

It's like that old story about two guys being chased by a hungry bear. The first guy shouts, "Oh no! We'll never outrun that beast!"

The second guy shouts back, "Hey, I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU!"

The D is overrated.

SI has Palmer ranked outside the top 10 in its Fantasy football guide for QB....

The Bengals threw for 11 (how sad) touchdowns last year and tossed in 15 Interceptions. The offense and special teams had 21 fumbles/loss of downs.

On the bright side, the defense came up with 34 takeaways over the year. How can a defense be expected to play well when they are on the field that much?

The offense had huge time of possession plays? LOL. Those three and outs were HUGE!

Jesus, this team average almost 7 punts a game last year! LOL

"Falc, just because I respond, please dont take it to mean that I give a sh!t about you. I respond because you are the type of person that needs to be told what a whack job you are or else you will go on thinking your behavior is normal and accepted. "

"How can a defense be expected to play well when they are on the field that much?"


I knew eventually you were going to go there--and you know what--YOU'RE RIGHT. Any defense that gets left on the field as much as that 1st game, for example, is bound to lose. Sadly, for you Palmer Fans--that was WHEN PALMER WAS PLAYING. Which is a bad way of looking at this year--but I think it's a great angle--considering the state of the offensive line. A QB is only as good as his front 5 players blocking for him. Palmer's in big trouble this year.





"So he got fired? Big deal. It's happened to the best of us. So he got kicked out of his house by his 400 lb'ed wife?!?!? That's probably better for him anyways."-OldSchooler on ChrisMBHater's absence

I think this defense has made great strides under Zimmer. He has them playing more agressively. Even though the pass rush was pitiful they still performed well overall. I'm not saying they are a great defense, they still have holes to fill. But they have improved, no doubt about it. And I think they will continue to improve until other teams, who care about winning notice what a good job Zimmer has done and offer him more money than MikeyBoy is willing to part with. Then the Bungs will get a new D-C and start all over again.

psychostats' "The D is overrated" is the most logical and fair explanation that I've heard in this thread.

The defense was not the reason that the Bungs lost and lost and lost last season, but yes, the defense did pad some stats late in the year against a putrid Browns team that was down to their 3rd string QB and had already quit on their coach (they would have lost to the Lions at that point) and the Chiefs who were shooting for draft positioning. The Bungs other 'defensive gem' during the season was the Eagles game which featured two teams that were bracing for the second overtime (although only one player admitted it!) That day, it seemed that neither team wanted to win in OT.

The defense was OK...not as bad as oldschooler wants to indicate, but it wasn't very good either, which is for one what leads to disillusions about 2009's defense, and also is why they still made big moves in the offseason on that side of the ball. I do believe in Zimmer, and I do believe that the best defense can often be a careful and thoughtful offense (see Manning...when Peyton's in 'Manning mode' trying to rack up stats, the defense is pourous b/c Manning is passing on every down regardless of the opponent or the situation (a'la late in the game inside the opponents redzone with a 20 point lead). However, when milking the clock, the defense tends to play better rested b/c that really is a talented group.

So on one hand, the defense played admirably with their backs against the wall b/c of the horrid Bungs offense, but on the other, they did not have to take 60 minutes of their opponents best shot, either (because they didn't have to!)